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solidj55
Guest
Just wondering what you guys think is most important, sure it takes both but which do feel is more important for optimal strength gains???
Which do you believe is resposible for more strength gains, CNS stimulation or Muscle
powerlifterjay
New member
Muscle. I mean everyone in the world can stimulate their CNS, but few lift a lot. Big strong muscles are the key. But if you tax your CNS to the point were its over worked gains will stop. CNS is important to keep well, but until you over run it, you make gains with pure muscle stimulation.
Shit i dont know if i even understood the question completey. I guess i was just trying to sound smart! Cause everyone knows i just lift until i feel overtrained then i take a break. Which lately is about 1 week off every 8 weeks. Then i feel good again.
Shit i dont know if i even understood the question completey. I guess i was just trying to sound smart! Cause everyone knows i just lift until i feel overtrained then i take a break. Which lately is about 1 week off every 8 weeks. Then i feel good again.
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solidj55
Guest
Good responses so far. Im just trying to get to the point that I totally understand how CNS stimulation works. I feel that if I can grasp that concept a little better then I can achieve "optimal" strength gains without putting on "alot" of weight. Im just now getting back into the swing of things with powerlifting since my back injury and I have gained some good muscle size because of the bodybuilding bullshit I was doing. The only problem is that the strenght is not in proportion with the size if that makes any sense because I couldnt train like a powerlifter. I am now cutting down my weight trying to get rid of some fat for vanity reasons so Im hoping to stimulate most of my strength through CNS while I drop some fat. This all sounds pretty jumbled Im sure but hell thats the way intelligent people like my self(lol, I meant to say dumbasses like myself) think.
Definitely the CNS.
Have a look at world records sets by people weighing 148 pounds. 140 pounders benching 450+pounds.
Hell, look at deciever. He weighs ~130 pounds and deadlifts 3X bodyweight almost.
Adding weight will help, but in terms of relative strength small people are often strongest.
The CNS is a truly amazing mechanism. Just look at 90 pound women lifting cars. That's not muscle. [*Sees Arioch go nuts at mention of afermentioned analogy*]
Also, you can add a LOT more weight by potentiating the CNS then by adding mass. People can add 10 pounds overnight by trying a new exercise or using supramaximal weights.
-Zulu
Have a look at world records sets by people weighing 148 pounds. 140 pounders benching 450+pounds.
Hell, look at deciever. He weighs ~130 pounds and deadlifts 3X bodyweight almost.
Adding weight will help, but in terms of relative strength small people are often strongest.
The CNS is a truly amazing mechanism. Just look at 90 pound women lifting cars. That's not muscle. [*Sees Arioch go nuts at mention of afermentioned analogy*]
Also, you can add a LOT more weight by potentiating the CNS then by adding mass. People can add 10 pounds overnight by trying a new exercise or using supramaximal weights.
-Zulu
I'd have to agree with Zzulu. The CNS controls how much of the muscle contracts and how forceful the contraction is. Inexperienced lifters cannot control the motor fuctions of the muscle nearly as well as experienced lifters, who have the ability to utilize more of the muscle they have. Although Jay is right, muscle is responsible, I believe that the CNS plays a much larger role. It is the regulator of muscle function.
This is why i think that mental outlook and attitude during a lift can have such a profound effect on a lift or even a workout. If you are pumped and determined, your mind will try harder to recruit more muscle fibers. This is why I believe if you are psyched and mentally optomistic about a lift, you will have a much better chance of making the lift. Take Deceiver for example. His mind is set that 200 pounds is a barrier. The kid is strong as hell, and if he believes he can lift the weight, I'm totally sure he could.
I think that CNS and the manipulation of it to maximize strength gains is one of the biggest differences between bodybuilders and powerlifters. Why isn't Coan weaker than Coleman? Ronnie has a lot more muscle mass than Ed Coan does, but Ed Coan is stronger. This must be due to the fact that Ed Coan can better recruit muscle fibers and contract them more forcefully. In all fairness though, Ronnie Coleman doesn't train for strength; if he did, and learned to use the CNS as equally as Coan has, i believe that Ronnie would be stronger.
This topic also brings to mind amazing feats performed during people during times of great mental stress. Have any of you ever heard of those people that lift cars to save people? During the times of great emotional distress the mind doesn't have the option to synthesize some protein and build some muscle, it relies on the CNS to make up for that and deliver strength.
Btw, i'm not saying that Ronnie Coleman isn't strong, I am just saying that factoring in relative size, Ed Coan is simply much stronger.
This is why i think that mental outlook and attitude during a lift can have such a profound effect on a lift or even a workout. If you are pumped and determined, your mind will try harder to recruit more muscle fibers. This is why I believe if you are psyched and mentally optomistic about a lift, you will have a much better chance of making the lift. Take Deceiver for example. His mind is set that 200 pounds is a barrier. The kid is strong as hell, and if he believes he can lift the weight, I'm totally sure he could.
I think that CNS and the manipulation of it to maximize strength gains is one of the biggest differences between bodybuilders and powerlifters. Why isn't Coan weaker than Coleman? Ronnie has a lot more muscle mass than Ed Coan does, but Ed Coan is stronger. This must be due to the fact that Ed Coan can better recruit muscle fibers and contract them more forcefully. In all fairness though, Ronnie Coleman doesn't train for strength; if he did, and learned to use the CNS as equally as Coan has, i believe that Ronnie would be stronger.
This topic also brings to mind amazing feats performed during people during times of great mental stress. Have any of you ever heard of those people that lift cars to save people? During the times of great emotional distress the mind doesn't have the option to synthesize some protein and build some muscle, it relies on the CNS to make up for that and deliver strength.
Btw, i'm not saying that Ronnie Coleman isn't strong, I am just saying that factoring in relative size, Ed Coan is simply much stronger.
powerlifterjay
New member
Maybe i didnt make my point clear. Muscle needs to be strong, but it does not have to be big.
Zuluz you make it sound like the CNS is what moves weight. Maybe i dont grasp what the CNS role is played. But a muscle doesnt have to be big to be strong. Take in point what Solid said about his own trainng. You must stimulate the muscle to make it fast, make it strong, and make it big. True?
So let me back up. If your CNS was to be constantly taxed your workouts would suck ass! SO yes keeping your CNS well is important. Just as important as the workout itself. But i think comparing the two isnt a duo that you can say which one is more important. You HAVE to train to be strong, and you HAVE to have a healthy CNS. But they coinside with each other. You cant compare the two.
Lets say you add 10lbs to your lift by trying somethin new. Well fine you got 10lbs, but do you want more? Keep doing the lift and you will get even more strong. There are times when i am totally in shape , peaked for a huge max, and i miss it. It wasnt my CNS. SO i regroup, get freakin raged then smoke it for 2 reps. That aint my CNS either, thats Adrenaline bro. And even though Adrenaline is part of the CNS, it if you channel it right helps you to lift more weight. You dont use it every workout if you do then your CNS is disturbed. Right? Cause that same mother who lifts the car off her child will not be able to do that in a meet. Will she?
Here is the definiton of the adrenal glands: a pair of endocrine glands just above the kidneys. The adrenals secrete the hormones hepinephrine ( adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline), which help to arouse the body in times of stress.
So here was my point i meant to make after re reading what i first said. Your training is what makes you strong, your CNS must be well and rested too. The two are the keys of making gains. I guess what iam saying is the same i said before in this post, i dont think there comparable.
Just because Ronnie Coleman is bigger then Ed Coan dfeinitly doesnt mean he is as strong. A man with bigger legs aint always faster then a dude with little skinny ones. Or a boxer who can hold his gloves up in front of his face and throw 100 punches a round for 10 rds. I bet Ed coan cant do that. But any of these men tax their CNS all will make no gains in strength, size, or speed. Am i right? Or do i not understand the two's relationship ?
Its like comparing a tree to its own fruit! well kinda!
Zuluz you make it sound like the CNS is what moves weight. Maybe i dont grasp what the CNS role is played. But a muscle doesnt have to be big to be strong. Take in point what Solid said about his own trainng. You must stimulate the muscle to make it fast, make it strong, and make it big. True?
So let me back up. If your CNS was to be constantly taxed your workouts would suck ass! SO yes keeping your CNS well is important. Just as important as the workout itself. But i think comparing the two isnt a duo that you can say which one is more important. You HAVE to train to be strong, and you HAVE to have a healthy CNS. But they coinside with each other. You cant compare the two.
Lets say you add 10lbs to your lift by trying somethin new. Well fine you got 10lbs, but do you want more? Keep doing the lift and you will get even more strong. There are times when i am totally in shape , peaked for a huge max, and i miss it. It wasnt my CNS. SO i regroup, get freakin raged then smoke it for 2 reps. That aint my CNS either, thats Adrenaline bro. And even though Adrenaline is part of the CNS, it if you channel it right helps you to lift more weight. You dont use it every workout if you do then your CNS is disturbed. Right? Cause that same mother who lifts the car off her child will not be able to do that in a meet. Will she?
Here is the definiton of the adrenal glands: a pair of endocrine glands just above the kidneys. The adrenals secrete the hormones hepinephrine ( adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline), which help to arouse the body in times of stress.
So here was my point i meant to make after re reading what i first said. Your training is what makes you strong, your CNS must be well and rested too. The two are the keys of making gains. I guess what iam saying is the same i said before in this post, i dont think there comparable.
Just because Ronnie Coleman is bigger then Ed Coan dfeinitly doesnt mean he is as strong. A man with bigger legs aint always faster then a dude with little skinny ones. Or a boxer who can hold his gloves up in front of his face and throw 100 punches a round for 10 rds. I bet Ed coan cant do that. But any of these men tax their CNS all will make no gains in strength, size, or speed. Am i right? Or do i not understand the two's relationship ?
Its like comparing a tree to its own fruit! well kinda!
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solidj55
Guest
I am totally not sure what to think about the CNS lol. After reading powerlifterjays response it makes me think what he says is correct that your CNS isnt the biggest factor because it isnt always used but I dont know for sure. It also makes sense what everyone else is saying too. Sorry for such a fucked up question but Im just wondering. If there is a way to maximize CNS stimulation while training to increase(and keep it I dont mean like CNS stimulation/strength through ephedrine/caffeine/cocaine/etc)
strength then let me know. How is it people maximize CNS while training. I have some idea of my own that I will post later and see what everyone thinks.
strength then let me know. How is it people maximize CNS while training. I have some idea of my own that I will post later and see what everyone thinks.
endpoint
New member
whoa we are getting confused here.
this is a very good correct statement:
"The CNS controls how much of the muscle contracts and how forceful the contraction is. Inexperienced lifters cannot control the motor fuctions of the muscle nearly as well as experienced lifters, who have the ability to utilize more of the muscle they have. Although Jay is right, muscle is responsible, I believe that the CNS plays a much larger role. It is the regulator of muscle function."
Its ALLLLLLL about the CNS. Its how your muscles function.Its no use having zillions of muscle fibers if none of them are told to contract by the CNS. Getting stronger is the body learning to involve more and more muscles contrating in unison to perform a movement.
Also to note, GOLGI tendons and Muscle spindle fibers regulate how heavy you can go.
If the muscle has too much tension or stretch or load....then sensors like this kick in and tell your muscles and body NO NO stop.
this is a very good correct statement:
"The CNS controls how much of the muscle contracts and how forceful the contraction is. Inexperienced lifters cannot control the motor fuctions of the muscle nearly as well as experienced lifters, who have the ability to utilize more of the muscle they have. Although Jay is right, muscle is responsible, I believe that the CNS plays a much larger role. It is the regulator of muscle function."
Its ALLLLLLL about the CNS. Its how your muscles function.Its no use having zillions of muscle fibers if none of them are told to contract by the CNS. Getting stronger is the body learning to involve more and more muscles contrating in unison to perform a movement.
Also to note, GOLGI tendons and Muscle spindle fibers regulate how heavy you can go.
If the muscle has too much tension or stretch or load....then sensors like this kick in and tell your muscles and body NO NO stop.
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