Which brand AR-15?

[BNG]

LOL!!!

Won't go through what? My sis had a 9mm slug come through the front wall, through a coat closet(with coats), out the back of the closet, across the dinning area, lodged in the wall of the kids bedroom. And all this, AFTER it had been fired through the front door by a pissed off neighbor!

I hope you are willing to risk everything you have on your decision. And #3 or #4 buckshot will indeed stop a human. I'd actually prefer it to #00 or #000, but all in all shooting through walls is a bad idea. I wonder about peeps like you.

 

[BigboyAl]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

read, learn then get back me with some karma after my recommendation saves your ass...

*He does note #00 or #000 will stop a human and is recommended but nothing less..


HERES THE QUOTE AT THE END:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

 

[BNG]

Interesting. I have no idea who this guy is but some of his data actually supports what I was saying. His test shows pellets with enough energy to go through three interior walls, and if you have anyone else in your house you want to consider penetration of things other than the bad guy.
I have tested mostly rifles and pistols. And even down to .22 LR and can tell you for a fact that slugs penetrate far more than most people would believe.
If I have to shoot a gun inside my house, a lot has already gone wrong. I want to shoot something that will penetrate into a human 10 to 12" as that is about all thats needed to poke holes in the vitals. More than that I feel I could be endangering family members. It's a personal choice.
As for educating myself, I have some knowledge and experience, and although your comment sounds a bit insulting, I also know most "knowledge" is nothing more than regurgitated drivel that supports someone point of view. That said, here is a url to a site that has test data from the military. http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
I think if you look at this you'll see they were talking about shots at distances well beyond the distance of shooting inside any house I've ever been in. The test for penetration at 7 yards is most realistic.
I won't ever shoot through a wall at what sounds like a bad guy! It could just as easily be one of my boys.

One more thing, I've served in combat and can tell you that survivability doesn't always depend on what you get shot with.

 

[BigboyAl]

dont take it the wrong way, i wasnt trying to insult anyone. i couldnt tell if some comments were based on assumption or physical evidence.

thanks for your link. you should check out the rest of that website, there are some great reviews of ammo and other calibers going head to head.

 

[Colonel Ingus]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

read, learn then get back me with some karma after my recommendation saves your ass...

*He does note #00 or #000 will stop a human and is recommended but nothing less..


HERES THE QUOTE AT THE END:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

After all the effort in testing and documenting the testing for the buckshot and slug loads, it's interesting that he offers only anectdotal evidence for the use of birdshot. No specifics, and even the mention of it's use when being stopped by the paper of the third board does not reference the distance from the muzzle on that "test".
I see that he shows the pictures of where the shot cup penetrated the drywall in his buckshot pictures. Also interesting to note that he points out that the pattern is very tight at typical room-to-room distances. Wouldn't it seem logical that an ounce and an eigth (typical target load) of 9, 8, or 7½ shot would remain partially in the shot cup at that distance (12 feet listed for the buckshjot testing) and result in a terminal effect similar to what Glasser Safety Slugs do? Even if only half of the shot stays in the wad, we're talking about a mass of over 220 grains. I believe that at the 7 yard distance often quoted in self defence situations that a birdshot load would spread, and therefore wouldn't penetrate more than a few layers of drywall, but if he's claiming that it won't do it at 12 feet then were is the data?

 

[BigboyAl]

After all the effort in testing and documenting the testing for the buckshot and slug loads, it's interesting that he offers only anectdotal evidence for the use of birdshot. No specifics, and even the mention of it's use when being stopped by the paper of the third board does not reference the distance from the muzzle on that "test".
I see that he shows the pictures of where the shot cup penetrated the drywall in his buckshot pictures. Also interesting to note that he points out that the pattern is very tight at typical room-to-room distances. Wouldn't it seem logical that an ounce and an eigth (typical target load) of 9, 8, or 7½ shot would remain partially in the shot cup at that distance (12 feet listed for the buckshjot testing) and result in a terminal effect similar to what Glasser Safety Slugs do? Even if only half of the shot stays in the wad, we're talking about a mass of over 220 grains. I believe that at the 7 yard distance often quoted in self defence situations that a birdshot load would spread, and therefore wouldn't penetrate more than a few layers of drywall, but if he's claiming that it won't do it at 12 feet then were is the data?

i dont think you can count the sum of all the pellets hitting a target even if's its only 3" diameter. the indivual weight of a pellet is what helps give it ft/lbs of energy, which is what helps penatration.
he never shows acuatl dadta on the bird shots, i guess we can assume that since the #4 & #1 shots showed fairly weak results that the birdshot was that much worst only braking 2 boards. the guy takes email request, maybe somoene should send him one showing the birdshot results.

 

[Colonel Ingus]

i dont think you can count the sum of all the pellets hitting a target even if's its only 3" diameter. the indivual weight of a pellet is what helps give it ft/lbs of energy, which is what helps penatration.

I agree. Any pellets that stray from the shot cup are not going to penetrate much at all. But those that do stay together will have the benefit of their combined mass for their initial penetration. Now how deep that goes before they all head in different directions is the big question. Before slugs were apporved for hunting deer where I live, some of the old timers used to say that dripping candle wax in to the shot on a buckshot load would help keep the pattern together longer. Now they use buffer material to do that.

Here's another point for those that mention energy delivered when discussing penetration. If a 9mm, or a .223, (or whatever) has a certian amount of energy as it enters a target (bad guy), and that round completely penetrates that target, then it has NOT transferred all of that energy to that target. The round continues on with a portion of it's energy remaining. Now take another projectile that penetrates a target and REMAINS IN THE TARGET. In that case the projectile has transferred ALL of it's energy to the target. Of course this is why hollow-points were designed, and what hollow-points are designed to do. We're talking about Terminal Ballistics.....not terminal like as in death, but as in the end of that projectile's flight path. Lots and lots of variables involved with that too, and many other factors FAR OUTWEIGH the importance using terminal ballistics as the sole basis for a decision concerning self defense.

 

[USAFBIRDRUNNER]

AR-15 for self defense? hmmmm...well, would want either a handgun (assuming you have a permit to carry concealed firearm) or a shotgun for home envasion type defense. But, anyways, go with a colt or bushmaster, if you really want something NICE and big...and expensive...go with none other than my personal favirote (second favirote) Desert Eagle .50 Cal. Isreali Arms handgun, expect high recoil. I would try to lean away from the assualt rifle deal.

 

[brew]

Hey dude, imho an AR is way overkill in the house. Others are right on a shoty is your best choice, but that's left up to the .45 in my house because I have the most trainning on it. If you really want an AR I would have to recomend the bushy. I've put close to 50k rounds through mine without a single issue. Just replace the barrel as it wears out.

 

[Powerbuilder333]

I looked at the new Sig 5.56 last Thursday. At $1249 it's a little on the steep side for me right now.