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What A Waste

Nelson Montana

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
Every day I hear about guys doing something that is dead wrong and it's time that it was addressed.

If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.

Whey and egg whites were never meant to be ingested alone. They are by-products of a more complete protein found in nature. And it's natural to have fat present when eating protein. And if you want size, it's absurd to mix protein with skim milk. Everyone is so afraid of the "saturated fat" in whole milk. It's a myth. Saturated fat has actually been shown to improve thyroid function. Fat is not the enemy. Laziness is.
Bodybuilders need fat. And they ESPECIALLY need it when taking in protein. Start mixing protein with whole milk and you'll be amazed how much more effective it is. Even the lactose in milk is good because it's a carb of animal origin and insulogenic. It's amazing how everyone wants to know what drugs to use when the same results can be acheived with food.

And it you're bulking, use Half&Half in your protein shakes. Don't let anyone tell you "It'll make you fat". You can't grow without extra calories. Keep the junk out of your diet, take protein and fat together, and train hard. It's the only way to grow.
 
i hope u know what ur talking about with this...i respect your opinion, so i will now do this...if i blow up, i'll be a coming for ya:D ...i take NLarge2 post workout( i know ur not a fan) but can i mix that with water since it already has saturated fat in it?
 
Good Info....

I have read this before but good info / reminder.

Also, I have read that certian vitamins will not absorb with out the presence of fat during their ingestion.

Anyone else lactose intollerant? What do you use to mix your protein drinks with?
 
Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat

I don't disagree with your whole post, but where are you getting this statement? I even double checked my advanced nutrition text...I see sodium dependant, potassium depentant, and pH dependant...but no lipid.
????
 
to grow you need surplus calrories.

For me when im taking in 400g of protein a day.. im usually eating plenty of other foods that get my calories way up.

Next thing you know people will be saying drink regular soda for the extra cals.
 
mmm... very interesting but i'm not yet convinced.

i'll bump for some experts' opinions.
 
I like using 2 tablespoons EFA's (about 24g of essential fats) in all my shakes (2 a day usually). But I do use lactose free milk, or I'd have a serious protein blast out my ass :D

DrG
 
Nelson Montana said:

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.
Click to expand...

Please post your sources for this information.

Protein (in the form of amino acids and polypeptides) is perfectly capable of crossing the intestinal barrier without the presence of fat.

Once in the bloodstream and tissue cells, protein can be converted to sugar, if blood sugar is low. (Anyone can do a google search with the keywords "deamination" and "gluconeogenesis" for more info.) However, if there is ample blood sugar, why would the body want to convert amino acids to glucose via an inefficient-at-best process? This would upset the blood-sugar homeostasis the body tries to maintain.

If your claim was correct, even orally administered amino acids such as L-Tryptophan, which has a mountain of evidence regarding its efficacy, would never even work, as they would be "converted to glucose in minutes".


If you can produce valid sources for your claims, I will gladly stand corrected. As of now though, I respectfullly disagree with you.
 
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Spidey said:
I don't disagree with your whole post but I will say that I believe it is chemically impossible for proteins (made up of amino acids) to be converted into glucose (a carbohydrate). They are entirely different classes of compounds.
Click to expand...

This process does exist in the body. Per my above post, just do a search on "deamination" and "gluconeogenesis". Basically, the amine-group is stripped from the amino acid molecule, and the remaining structure is converted to glucose.

Still though, this isn't a 'cost-effective' process, and the body will not use it unless absolutely necessary.
 
I don't disagree with your whole post but I will say that I believe it is chemically impossible for proteins (made up of amino acids) to be converted into glucose (a carbohydrate). They are entirely different classes of compounds.

I also have never read anywhere that protein absorbtion in lipid dependant. Where are you getting this information?
 
fogg88 said:


This process does exist in the body. Per my above post, just do a search on "deamination" and "gluconeogenesis". Basically, the amine-group is stripped from the amino acid molecule, and the remaining structure is converted to glucose.

Still though, this isn't a 'cost-effective' process, and the body will not use it unless absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...
DOH! I stand corrected :) . Brain Fart!! I forgot about gluconeogenesis.
 
Amen Nelson--exactly--when i was younger i had to learn the hard way--much money spent on protein but i mixed it with water and it had absolutely no effect at all--no weight no strength--then a guy said i was an idiot for mixing it with water si i tried whole milk and boom more weight and more growth......nelsons right on this one
 
Nelson, from your previous posts you seem to be very knowledgeable and I mean no disrespect, but my understanding of protein metabolism is that protein will be utilized if needed in the absence of lipids. Amino acids must first be broken into acetyl co A from where they can be modified into glucose via gluconeogenesis as fogg88 stated, but this will occur in case of energy deficit and is not the preferred metabolic pathway.
 
Wrong.

While protein is better utilized in the presence of either sugar or fat, it does not automatically convert to glucose if taken in alone.

There are many determining factors, among them would be the organism's blood sugar level when the protein was consumed.

Spidey--

Yes, protein can be converted to glucose, although not efficiently, since only some of the amino acids can be so converted in the manner that fog88 described. However, carbohydrates cannot be converted into protein.

Nelson's post is another example of his misunderstanding of the body's preferential utilization of fuel in a specific hierarchy, namely, that the body will burn fat and carbs before it burns protien.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Every day I hear about guys doing something that is dead wrong and it's time that it was addressed.

If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.

Whey and egg whites were never meant to be ingested alone. They are by-products of a more complete protein found in nature. And it's natural to have fat present when eating protein. And if you want size, it's absurd to mix protein with skim milk. Everyone is so afraid of the "saturated fat" in whole milk. It's a myth. Saturated fat has actually been shown to improve thyroid function. Fat is not the enemy. Laziness is.
Bodybuilders need fat. And they ESPECIALLY need it when taking in protein. Start mixing protein with whole milk and you'll be amazed how much more effective it is. Even the lactose in milk is good because it's a carb of animal origin and insulogenic. It's amazing how everyone wants to know what drugs to use when the same results can be acheived with food.

And it you're bulking, use Half&Half in your protein shakes. Don't let anyone tell you "It'll make you fat". You can't grow without extra calories. Keep the junk out of your diet, take protein and fat together, and train hard. It's the only way to grow.
Click to expand...

Nelson,

I still have milk that expired on sept 15, is it okay if I use it in my shake?

-sk
 
Nelson, I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions and am intrigued by your recent post but I'd love to see some facts backing up your statements.
 
babbabuee said:
Nelson, I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions and am intrigued by your recent post but I'd love to see some facts backing up your statements.
Click to expand...

I bet my left ball you won't get any.

-sk
 
why use whole milk? why not just mix some good fat, like olive oil in with the protein shake... saturated fat is pretty useless IMO, and can be detrimental when consumed in excess.
 
LOL @ this whole thread. This entire thread is ludicrous. "Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat." This statement is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen regarding protein consumption.
 
bump for nelson to reply...
And fogg88... that avatar is.... I can't stop staring at it...LOL

I was about to respond saying fogg88 really has the whole story. And that that avatar is great :-D
 
I already take my protein with 2% milk, but...
Fogg, did you take that picture of the girl in your avatar? Would you mind sharing her for a week?
I seriously think avatars like that are detrimental to my health, they make me want to go for anything in sight.
 
kronk said:
LOL @ this whole thread. This entire thread is ludicrous. "Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat." This statement is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen regarding protein consumption.
Click to expand...


Couldn't agree more.
 
I don't understand....

Protein is digested in the stomach and small intestine into amino acids by pepsin, trypsin and chymotrypsin. Why is fat needed?

Glucose is a carbohydrate...baically a hydro-carbon. This conversion of protein to glucose would require the breakdown of, say, glycine, serine and alanine. What does this? Where does all the extra nitrogen go?
 
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem/MBWeb/mb1/part2/gluconeo.htm

Gluconeogenesis inputs:
The source of pyruvate and oxaloacetate for gluconeogenesis during fasting or carbohydrate starvation is mainly amino acid catabolism. Some amino acids are catabolized to pyruvate, oxaloacetate, or precursors of these (see diagram p. 844, and web page on amino acid catabolism). Muscle proteins may break down to supply amino acids. These are transported to liver where they are deaminated and converted to gluconeogenesis inputs.


Is THIS what is happen to your egg proteins? How does fat prevent this?
 
Don be confusin Nelson with nona that book learnin, he's a knowin what makes ya big cause he writ one a dem books.

:D

I don't understand what Nelson is talking about, maybe a citation to some research contradicting everything we understand about protein metabolism would clear things up.:confused:
 
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the liver responsible for converting Protein into Glucose?
If so it is already in the bloodstream.

But go with the two tablespoons of fatty acids per shake idea, not a bad one that (Don't overdo it though!)

Better gains can be attributed to the Milk alone because it is a food in its own right (to me it is anyway)
Something like 300ml is 300 calories?
4 shakes a day and thats 1800 cals (allow 150 cals for the powder), so of course you will put weight on!
 
Gel said:
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the liver responsible for converting Protein into Glucose?
If so it is already in the bloodstream.

But go with the two tablespoons of fatty acids per shake idea, not a bad one that (Don't overdo it though!)

Better gains can be attributed to the Milk alone because it is a food in its own right (to me it is anyway)
Something like 300ml is 300 calories?
4 shakes a day and thats 1800 cals (allow 150 cals for the powder), so of course you will put weight on!
Click to expand...

Yes, that is gluconeogenesis in the absence of carb's and involves the destruction of muscle for the amino acids. Basically to fuel the kidneys, brain, testes and I can't remember what other organs...
 
Mixing your shake with half and half will turn you into a fat tub of shit, especially if you drink 4 or 5 shakes a day in addition to real food. Mixing shakes with say 2 percent milk is not a bad idea because you get some extra calories when bulking.
 
Proteins are only gluconeogenic in a starvation state. After taking a million and one biochem and nutrtion courses this is a valid true statement. It is not a blast of sugar either, that isn't right at all. Not disrespecting or flaming but wanted to get the word out.
Thanks
Dr. Chuck48
 
While I think that mixing protein powders with milk is beneficial, I don't think protein is useless without fat.

I make 2 of my shakes each day with 2% chocolate milk. If I have anything else, it's made with sugar-free koolaid. I haven't gotten fat either way, and I'm very sensitive to carbs when it comes to adding fat.
 
The classic after work-out shake is whey isolate with simple carbs with no fat. Especially for those that use insulin it is always recommended only to have protein and carbs without any fat until the insulin is out of your system. I thought protein converted to glucose only if there isn't sufficient carbohydrates in your diet. Maybe I'm missing something but it just does not make intuitive sense to mean that if I drink a protein shake mixed with in apple juice, bananas and some strawberries that the protein will automatically be converted into glucose.
 
Nelson Montana said:
If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.
Click to expand...
This is simply not true. I can only assume that this post was made in response to you having read an article or a remark by an "expert" who was confused or ignorant. (Perhaps you will reference a study or two in which the administrators came to such a conclusion - in which case a hundred "don't believe everything you read in a study" posts by Nelson Montana come to mind.)



I was going to map out the process of protein digestion, but I must go to class. As it turns out, some high school kids have put together a fun little site that I've linked HERE.


Nelson, as homework, take a trip to proteinfactory.com - a site with which you are affiliated. The fact is, several of the protein products they offer don't even need to go through the digestion process linked above! See if you can find out which ones.

In addition, there is a clinical term used for a humoral/metabolic state that is often observed after a subject's consumption and absorption of a quality, pure protein supplement such as whey in it's various forms. Can you find that term? (It would not exist if that which you had posted here were true.)
 
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Knowing the pedantic nature of some of the members, I should have been more specific and said protein is "far less likely to be fully absorbed without fat and much more likely to be converted to glucose", which is absolutely true. The benefits of using milk also stands as do the statements about adding calories while bulking.

It would be nice if people can make their point without condensention or rudeness. Give some people a reason to argue some minute point and the sarcasm and name calling starts right in. Maybe it stems from some sort of insecrurity. Who knows?
 
This is a good post. I know from my own personal experience that I get much better results on a high fat diet. This is not essential, but it helps.
 
Nelson, with all due respect, I personally did not attack you in any way and merely requested some sort of evidence backing up your statement. I'm not one to get into any flaming, I have no reason to do so. But I, and some other people, are still waiting for some sort of evidence that backs up your claims. You obviously didn't just make up that claim about protein/fat out of thin air, so please share with the rest of us the data that led you to your conclusion.
 
Nelson Montana said:
If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I was taking this too literally but it does seem to imply that consuming just protein is pretty much worthless and you might as well eat gummy bears.
 
Well all aside and correct me if Im wrong, doesnt milk slow down the absorption of protein making it far less effective as a post workout shake versus any other time? Shouldn't be mixed with water for the fastest possible absorption post workout?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Knowing the pedantic nature of some of the members, I should have been more specific and said protein is "far less likely to be fully absorbed without fat and much more likely to be converted to glucose", which is absolutely true. The benefits of using milk also stands as do the statements about adding calories while bulking.

It would be nice if people can make their point without condensention or rudeness. Give some people a reason to argue some minute point and the sarcasm and name calling starts right in. Maybe it stems from some sort of insecrurity. Who knows?
Click to expand...

Nelson, this lends itself to the same old complaints many of us have with your "past performance" so to speak.

#1. Your first post was very unambiguous: "If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet." "Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat."

#2. Being dead wrong, NOT ONLY do you pull a rationalized side step, but you insult us as well. Do not insult our intelligence by calling us pedantic. See #1. Your post was unambiguous - and wrong.

#3. You condescendingly provide fiction and attempt to pass it off as unequivocal fact. We reject the falsehood and are understandably irked - both for the falsehood projected as truth and the condescending attitude with which it was presented.

So what happens? Your last paragraph happens. Those who reject your false information are insecure rude jerks that want nothing but argument.


Look Nelson, you were wrong, as are we all from time to time. If you don't want it to sting so much, do not design posts in such a condescending, daddy knows best, this is the Lord’s gospel style. Better yet, don't post the false information as fact. However, if you do, do not be insulting when you are called on it.
 
Silent Method said:


Nelson, this lends itself to the same old complaints many of us have with your "past performance" so to speak.

#1. Your first post was very unambiguous: "If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet." "Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat."

#2. Being dead wrong, NOT ONLY do you pull a rationalized side step, but you insult us as well. Do not insult our intelligence by calling us pedantic. See #1. Your post was unambiguous - and wrong.

#3. You condescendingly provide fiction and attempt to pass it off as unequivocal fact. We reject the falsehood and are understandably irked - both for the falsehood projected as truth and the condescending attitude with which it was presented.

So what happens? Your last paragraph happens. Those who reject your false information are insecure rude jerks that want nothing but argument.


Look Nelson, you were wrong, as are we all from time to time. If you don't want it to sting so much, do not design posts in such a condescending, daddy knows best, this is the Lord’s gospel style. Better yet, don't post the false information as fact. However, if you do, do not be insulting when you are called on it.
Click to expand...

You go girl!
 
you guys should realize, nelson always makes drastic statements at first, to catch attention, it's not always percisely what he means :p
 
Nelson Montana said:
Every day I hear about guys doing something that is dead wrong and it's time that it was addressed.

If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.

Whey and egg whites were never meant to be ingested alone. They are by-products of a more complete protein found in nature. And it's natural to have fat present when eating protein. And if you want size, it's absurd to mix protein with skim milk. Everyone is so afraid of the "saturated fat" in whole milk. It's a myth. Saturated fat has actually been shown to improve thyroid function. Fat is not the enemy. Laziness is.
Bodybuilders need fat. And they ESPECIALLY need it when taking in protein. Start mixing protein with whole milk and you'll be amazed how much more effective it is. Even the lactose in milk is good because it's a carb of animal origin and insulogenic. It's amazing how everyone wants to know what drugs to use when the same results can be acheived with food.

And it you're bulking, use Half&Half in your protein shakes. Don't let anyone tell you "It'll make you fat". You can't grow without extra calories. Keep the junk out of your diet, take protein and fat together, and train hard. It's the only way to grow.
Click to expand...


Are you saying the straight protein can't be digested without carbs and fat??? So, bascially all those Zero Carb, Zero fat protein drinks just goes to waste???
 
Re: Good Info....

doublebicep said:
Anyone else lactose intollerant? What do you use to mix your protein drinks with?
Click to expand...

I'm BIG-TIME lactose intolerant. I buy Lactaid drops and put them in a gallon of milk about 3 to 4 days before I plan to drink it. They alter the flavour slightly - the glucose-galactose (lactose) disaccharide sweetness becomes a mixture of the glucose and galactose monosaccharides' tastes, but I don't mind it. And just to be safe, I take one chewable lactaid ultra with each glass worth of drop-treated milk... otherwise, well - you know how it goes!

-M
 
Re: Re: Good Info....

Dr. M said:


I'm BIG-TIME lactose intolerant. I buy Lactaid drops and put them in a gallon of milk about 3 to 4 days before I plan to drink it. They alter the flavour slightly - the glucose-galactose (lactose) disaccharide sweetness becomes a mixture of the glucose and galactose monosaccharides' tastes, but I don't mind it. And just to be safe, I take one chewable lactaid ultra with each glass worth of drop-treated milk... otherwise, well - you know how it goes!

-M
Click to expand...

woah, cow milk is that important to you to take such steps?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Info....

Silent Method said:

Nothing else tates so good with his coco puffs!
Click to expand...

You go girl!

(I am now officially Silent Method's personal board chearleader.)

Give me an S...S! You got your S you got your S

Give me an I...I! You got your I you got your I...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Info....

BigAndy69 said:


You go girl!

(I am now officially Silent Method's personal board chearleader.)

Give me an S...S! You got your S you got your S

Give me an I...I! You got your I you got your I...
Click to expand...
:) I feel all warm and fuzzy...my nipples are hard.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Info....

Silent Method said:

:) I feel all warm and fuzzy...my nipples are hard.
Click to expand...

Mine are puffy! :bawling: I'm hoping it's fat deposits..Can you beleive I got gyno from increased prolactin levels from a lack of sleep (ie sleep apnea)? That's what my blood tests show. Unreal.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Knowing the pedantic nature of some of the members, I should have been more specific and said protein is "far less likely to be fully absorbed without fat and much more likely to be converted to glucose", which is absolutely true. The benefits of using milk also stands as do the statements about adding calories while bulking.

It would be nice if people can make their point without condensention or rudeness. Give some people a reason to argue some minute point and the sarcasm and name calling starts right in. Maybe it stems from some sort of insecrurity. Who knows?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that your second paragraph above couldn't have been referring to my reply on page 1 of this thread, as it was about as diplomatic as a reply can be.

Since you haven't yet provided any support for your statement, allow me to speculate about the rationale behind your claims.

You state that protein is far less likely to be absorbed without fat. Let's look at this from the point of oral consumption to the point of absorption. You can chew your protein just fine without fat, so we'll rule that out. Same goes for swallowing. The role of the stomach is to churn and liquify food, and also begins enzymatic digestion. More enzymatic digestion occurs in the duodenum, at the start of the intestines. Are you claiming that the protein-digesting enzymes aren't released in the same quantity in the absence of fat? ...doesn't make sense. Past the duodenum, the protein will have been liquified and broken down into amino acids and small peptide chains. These can cross the wall of the small intestine and enter the bloodstream just fine on their own. If you have scientific literature that shows permeabilty of the intestinal wall to protein is based on lipid presence, please post a link or even just a reference.

The only other real way in which fat's presence can assist protein absorption is by increasing gastric emptying time. The presence of fat in the stomach will slow the release of it's contents into the intestines, allow more of a trickle effect and possibly increasing the exposure time of the liquified food to the absorbitive surfaces of the intestines. Maybe this is what you're thinking of?

...even if so, this brings us back to your assertation that lipid-free protein intake will result in a likely large-scale conversion to glucose. Please explain this, even if only in a brief one-sentence answer. I stand by my previous statement that when consuming protein with carbs (sugars, whatever you want to call them), the body already has to deal with an increase in blood sugar, and is certainly not going to make it more difficult to maintain homeostasis by converting protein into even more sugar, via an inefficient mechanism.

...eagerly awaiting a reply from you. If you present actual proof that I am wrong, I will be thrilled that I learned something new, and will be more than happy to stand corrected.
 
I don't like the taste of lactose free milk so I just take a lactaid pill.

Silent: Im not going to go tit for tat with you. And you know I'm not one to cut and paste something from some other internet site (which seems to be inconclusive proof to some people) Hell, "pedantic" isn't even a disparaging term so I (and maybe you) don't know what you're talking about.

It's no big deal. But I maintain, mixing protein with water is a waste. It would serve a better purpose, for several reasons, to have it with milk.

I like the fact that you bring up "past performances." Some members who've been here for a while can probably recall all those times when there was a lot of disention toward me. Like on the issue of short cycles, or glutamine, or Clomid, or aerobics, or avena sativa, or ab training, or GH, or the "bridging myth". Oh, wait a minute...the people who actually took my advice on those things realized they were correct after all. And then, there are those who prefer to keep arguing.

Look, I don't want to turn this into a "do this, or don't do that" debate. Whatever. Consider it a suggestion. Take it leave it. But I know the people who mix protein with fat will get better results. Argue with them.
 
Nelson Montana - hey bro what is your take on muscle milk ? good or bad or no opinion ?
 
Fogg: No, I wasn't addressing everyone who disagreed. Just those that got "snotty" about it.

Fat slows digestion and the absorbtion of carbs. The benefit is threefold. Less catabolism. More utilized protein. Less fat storage.

Daddy: I have yet to try MuscleMilk but I agree with the concept. But there's no need to buy a pre-mixed MRP. Just go to PF and make your own blend that contains some whole egg. Problem solved. And it's a lot less expensive.
 
Daddy: I have yet to try MuscleMilk but I agree with the concept. But there's no need to buy a pre-mixed MRP. Just go to PF and make your own blend that contains some whole egg. Problem solved. And it's a lot less expensive.

This post was desighned to sell Nelson's Protein factory products.


__________________
 
Well im certainly going to apply Nelson's theory. I have been trying to bulk up forever and drink protein shakes consistently - but w/water. So i will try this. Maybe i will see some results.
 
boyer said:
Daddy: I have yet to try MuscleMilk but I agree with the concept. But there's no need to buy a pre-mixed MRP. Just go to PF and make your own blend that contains some whole egg. Problem solved. And it's a lot less expensive.

This post was desighned to sell Nelson's Protein factory products.


__________________
Click to expand...

And BINGO was his name O.
 
I disagree.

Funny that you should mention this Nelson. I was just reading a blurb on this yesterday regaring whey isolate.

Everyone knows that mixing fat with carbs is bad. Mixing whey with milk will only make your shake taste better, add more calories, and slow/decrease digestion. This is because of the casien in milk. I always take my shakes with water and crytal light. It has worked great for me. I always use a high quality whey isolate which makes a huge difference becasue of its BV. Here is the blurb I was reading which tells why you should never mix whey with milk if you want to get the most absorbtion from your protein shake. Take what you want from it. Mavy



Mixing whey with dairy milk does not provide optimal results

At first, it may seem strange to learn that whey protein should not be mixed in milk or milk products like yogurt and ice cream. After all, most whey protein supplements taste better in milk than in water and whey protein is obtained by collecting the clear fluid (called whey) produced during the processing of cheese.

But let’s consider some of the following facts:

The enzymes necessary to break down and digest milk are renin and lactase. They are all but gone by the age of three in most humans.
There is an element in all milk known as casein and there is three hundred times more casein in cow’s milk than in human’s milk. Casein coagulates in the stomach and forms large, tough, dense, difficult-to-digest curds that are adapted to the four-stomach digestive apparatus of a cow. Once inside the human system, this thick mass of goo puts a tremendous burden on the body to somehow get rid of it.
Unfortunately some of this gooey substance hardens and adheres to the lining of the intestines and prevents the absorption of nutrients into the body.
The most serious difficulty with milk consumption is the formation of mucus in the system. This mucus coats the mucous membranes and also seriously affects absorption.
To fully understand why whey protein supplements should not be mixed with milk, this knowledge should be combined with a review of the technology that goes into high quality whey protein supplements. Whey protein isolate, a highly separated fraction found only in top quality products, is very expensive and has an extremely high bioavailability (meaning it is very easily utilized by the body) because its particle sizes are so small. Whey protein concentrate has also gone through a huge amount of separation from the original starting material and the major waste product in this procedure is casein. This casein is then sold to other companies which produce low grade products. If you were to check out the ingredients on your favorite pudding desert, for example, you will likely see sodium caseinate because it is a cheap product that provides substance.

The idea behind a high quality whey protein is particle size. Digestion is most effective when particles are small enough to be taken up by the cells of the intestine. If food is not broken down into small enough pieces the body will simply NOT be able to use it. All research on the absorption of food reaches the same conclusion: the bigger the molecule, the more difficulty it has penetrating the mucus barrier lining the intestines.

So, why not mix milk and whey protein? Milk contains a lot of casein which adheres to the intestinal wall and blocks the absorption of the smaller whey protein molecules. Also, it generates a barrier of mucus internally which not only drives down the absorption of protein, but also the absorption of other vital nutrients.

The solution? Mix your whey protein in water, your favorite juice or a non-lactose beverage such as soy milk and benefit as much as possible from your protein supplement.
 
I know someone else said this but I haven't seen the answer. I'm not disagreeing but just asking...What about those Zero Carb/Zero Fat proteins? Like Isopure or Isoplex or whatever it is called? Are those a waste of money or are they really that less effective?
 
what about guys that compete?? they eat virtually no fat at all when in comp prep, yet seem to maintain mass while cutting. doesnt this imply that the protein they ingest with carbs is definately being absorbed and utilized?
 
The alcoholic content of alcohol, "beer" as it is called in unscientific terms... is far more likely to cause the storage of fat than say... unalcoholic beverages such as dihydrogen oxide -- commonly referred to in the "unscientific" community as "Water" or "H2o".

Now buy my new supplement... guaranteed to make you not gain fat... Dihydroxycut Oxide! ;)

C-ditty
 
hehehehe...all this shit is too funny to a guy who can look at milk and gain weight. Hell I think I can gain fat by drinking water.LOL
I'm still looking for something to get the fat off and keep the muscle that I have gained. Cardio just ain't helping enough...guess I gotta go for more. hehe
 
Nelson Montana said:
Every day I hear about guys doing something that is dead wrong and it's time that it was addressed.

If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet.

Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat. Without fat, most of the protein will just be converted to glucose in minutes, so that suposedly super anabolic cocktail you think you're drinking is little more than a blast of sugar.

Whey and egg whites were never meant to be ingested alone. They are by-products of a more complete protein found in nature. And it's natural to have fat present when eating protein. And if you want size, it's absurd to mix protein with skim milk. Everyone is so afraid of the "saturated fat" in whole milk. It's a myth. Saturated fat has actually been shown to improve thyroid function. Fat is not the enemy. Laziness is.
Bodybuilders need fat. And they ESPECIALLY need it when taking in protein. Start mixing protein with whole milk and you'll be amazed how much more effective it is. Even the lactose in milk is good because it's a carb of animal origin and insulogenic. It's amazing how everyone wants to know what drugs to use when the same results can be acheived with food.

And it you're bulking, use Half&Half in your protein shakes. Don't let anyone tell you "It'll make you fat". You can't grow without extra calories. Keep the junk out of your diet, take protein and fat together, and train hard. It's the only way to grow.
Click to expand...

Smartest post I ever read by Mr. Montana. Fat and carbs are absolutely necessary with protein, otherwise the body turns the pure protein into sugar pretty quickly. LK ow glycemic carbs, fiber and fat have to be ingested with the protein. Good stuff.
 
Goldprospector said:
hehehehe...all this shit is too funny to a guy who can look at milk and gain weight. Hell I think I can gain fat by drinking water.LOL
I'm still looking for something to get the fat off and keep the muscle that I have gained. Cardio just ain't helping enough...guess I gotta go for more. hehe
Click to expand...

You'll be excited to know that the revolutionary components I have established in Dihydroxycut Oxide can do JUST THAT. That's right... do you have stubborn fat that just won't go away? Are you tired of gaining muscle and getting that pesky tag-a-long fat? Well... be tired no more warrior of the gym... because with just three simple payments of $19.99... you can have a ONE month supply of the most powerful and needed concoction known to man... Dihydroxycut Oxide!!!

Act now and get a 2-week bonus supply free. Contents of Dihydroxycut Oxide include Dihyrdrogen Oxide... one of the fundamental components of the human body... required for muscular and cellular growth... and just about everything from protein and glucogen synthesis to just having that "hydrated" feeling... it's something you just can't live without.

C-ditty
 
Citruscide said:


You'll be excited to know that the revolutionary components I have established in Dihydroxycut Oxide can do JUST THAT. That's right... do you have stubborn fat that just won't go away? Are you tired of gaining muscle and getting that pesky tag-a-long fat? Well... be tired no more warrior of the gym... because with just three simple payments of $19.99... you can have a ONE month supply of the most powerful and needed concotion known to man... Dihydroxycut Oxide!!!

Act now and get a 2-week bonus supply free. Contents of Dihydroxycut Oxide include Dihyrdrogen Oxide... one of the fundamental components of the human body... required for muscular and cellular growth... and just about everything from protein and glucogen synthesis to just having that "hydrated" feeling... it's something you just can't live without.

C-ditty
Click to expand...

ROFL!!!!! :lmao:
 
Re: Re: What A Waste

anabolicmd said:


Smartest post I ever read by Mr. Montana. Fat and carbs are absolutely necessary with protein, otherwise the body turns the pure protein into sugar pretty quickly. LK ow glycemic carbs, fiber and fat have to be ingested with the protein. Good stuff.
Click to expand...

What? So the Isopure Whey Isolate drinks with 40g of protein are completely worthless and will be converted directly over to sugar if consumed post workout? For some reason, I'm not buying this at all...

I really don't think a protein mix in water is going to be "poured" down the drain. I have several friends who are competitive bodybuilders who drink their protein mixtures in water... their muscles seem to grow just fine?

C-ditty
 
Here's what bothers me about this post...It started with Nelson posting his usual "here's the truth" statement with no evidence. Now, we are five pages into a thread and Nelson still had yet to provide evidence despite all of the requests...is anyone else tired of this????
 
Boulder257 said:
Here's what bothers me about this post...It started with Nelson posting his usual "here's the truth" statement with no evidence. Now, we are five pages into a thread and Nelson still had yet to provide evidence despite all of the requests...is anyone else tired of this????
Click to expand...

Grasshopper... over the years, you have come far, your wisdom has grown.

However, we have learned something in this thread... DIHYDROXYCUT OXIDE! :)

Just keep on drinking your protein in water... trust me... it isn't going to convert to sugar FAST... lol.

C-ditty
 
Silent Method said:


Nelson, this lends itself to the same old complaints many of us have with your "past performance" so to speak.

#1. Your first post was very unambiguous: "If you're mixing whey or egg white protein in water, you might as well flush it down the toilet." "Protein can not be absorbed without the presense of fat."

#2. Being dead wrong, NOT ONLY do you pull a rationalized side step, but you insult us as well. Do not insult our intelligence by calling us pedantic. See #1. Your post was unambiguous - and wrong.

#3. You condescendingly provide fiction and attempt to pass it off as unequivocal fact. We reject the falsehood and are understandably irked - both for the falsehood projected as truth and the condescending attitude with which it was presented.

So what happens? Your last paragraph happens. Those who reject your false information are insecure rude jerks that want nothing but argument.


Look Nelson, you were wrong, as are we all from time to time. If you don't want it to sting so much, do not design posts in such a condescending, daddy knows best, this is the Lord’s gospel style. Better yet, don't post the false information as fact. However, if you do, do not be insulting when you are called on it.
Click to expand...

Very well said.

Nelson, I as an Elite Mod am not trying to disrespect or embarrass you here, quite frankly I think you have done that to yourself already. I am simply adding my opinion to this matter. The only logic I can see behind your post is this, you are either just trying to be controversial so that you can get more people to buy your books or there is a new line of protein supplement that is coming out that you will be behind. Good luck with either. Peace
 
kronk said:


Very well said.

Nelson, I as an Elite Mod am not trying to disrespect or embarrass you here, quite frankly I think you have done that to yourself already. I am simply adding my opinion to this matter. The only logic I can see behind your post is this, you are either just trying to be controversial so that you can get more people to buy your books or there is a new line of protein supplement that is coming out that you will be behind. Good luck with either. Peace
Click to expand...

Damnit, he better not be trying to shade in on my dihydroxycut oxide idea... :(

In all seriousness... Nelson, many times you have posted up stuff and based your knowledge not on scientific studies, but rather your own personal experiences... such as on anabolics or diet, or what have you.

How can your own personal experiences relate to this? Does protein, by itself convert to sugar rapidly in your body? your friends?

c-ditty
 
Nelson Montana said:
Fogg: No, I wasn't addressing everyone who disagreed. Just those that got "snotty" about it.

Fat slows digestion and the absorbtion of carbs. The benefit is threefold. Less catabolism. More utilized protein. Less fat storage.
Click to expand...

Thank you for replying, Nelson. The fact that fat slows digestion is common knowledge, but you still haven't given any support for your claims of a large-scale protein to glucose conversion, even in the presence of carbs.

AnabolicMD seems to strongly agree with you, so maybe he will post this support instead. If not, I will just assume that there is no validity to this aspect of your post, and that the info in my replies is 100% correct.

:)
 
C-Ditty:

When is Dihydroxycut Oxide going to be available? Is Anafit going to carry it?? Remember all of us when you are a rich player in the supp game. ;)
 
What about post-workout guys? Won't milk just slow down absorption of whey and further prolong catabolism? Should it be mixed with water instead for faster absorption?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Fogg: No, I wasn't addressing everyone who disagreed. Just those that got "snotty" about it.

Fat slows digestion and the absorbtion of carbs. The benefit is threefold. Less catabolism. More utilized protein. Less fat storage.

Daddy: I have yet to try MuscleMilk but I agree with the concept. But there's no need to buy a pre-mixed MRP. Just go to PF and make your own blend that contains some whole egg. Problem solved. And it's a lot less expensive.
Click to expand...

thank you for your input. ill check out pf
 
Izzman said:
What about post-workout guys? Won't milk just slow down absorption of whey and further prolong catabolism? Should it be mixed with water instead for faster absorption?
Click to expand...
I am curious about this question also.
 
Re: Re: Re: What A Waste

Citruscide said:


What? So the Isopure Whey Isolate drinks with 40g of protein are completely worthless and will be converted directly over to sugar if consumed post workout? For some reason, I'm not buying this at all...

I really don't think a protein mix in water is going to be "poured" down the drain. I have several friends who are competitive bodybuilders who drink their protein mixtures in water... their muscles seem to grow just fine?

C-ditty
Click to expand...

My experience with the Isopure 40 gram whey drink while on a low carb diet sort of bear out Nelsons claims. It spiked my blood sugar when I chugged it by itself post workout. When I preceded it with some fish/flax oil and fiber, it didnt spike my blood sugar at all. Granted, this is not rock soild evidence, but the fact that the body can and does convert protein to glycogen is well established. I do believe that all consumed food should be balanced and proportioned according to our metabolic demands. If no fat and carbs ae taken with the protein, the body will use some of the protein for energy and other functions it would normally use the fat and carbs for.
 
guys some insulin is released even on pure protein diets the issue is, not even if the protein converts to glucose, but simply the degree of insulin spike which will be greater if absorbtion is faster. debatable if this is good or bad, post-workout this may be considered better. if dieting, the insulin spike may not be desirable.
 
Interestingly enough, Author L. Rea wrote in "CHECMICAL MUSCLE" about a protocol for using insulin without the consumption of carbs. It requires a massive amount of protein to be consumed, say 600g/day or more, and relying on gluconeogenesis to supply the carbs produced by the liver. At the same time gluconeogenesis can be produced using the glycerol portion of fats, thus, why lo-carb diets work.

:garza:
 
Okay, you got me. I just signed a major contract with the milk company and promised to get them more business by going on EF and telling people to drink milk. That'll do it.
I swear, some of the accusations are just moronic.

Then of course you have the flamers...um, I mean the mods who love to dismiss what I say while providing heaping mounds of evidence to the contrary. No, wait a minute. They provided no evidence, did they? They're mods. Just believe what they say.

And finally, lets not forget those that get really peeved at posts that get thousands of view and dozens of replies. All that interest is really a bother isn't it? Maybe he's right. From now on, lets stick to issues like which testosterone is best and if it's okay to drink winny.


:rolleyes:
 
Triple J said:
guys some insulin is released even on pure protein diets the issue is, not even if the protein converts to glucose, but simply the degree of insulin spike which will be greater if absorbtion is faster. debatable if this is good or bad, post-workout this may be considered better. if dieting, the insulin spike may not be desirable.
Click to expand...

For the vast majority of people, an insulin spike is not desirable. It shuts down fat mobilization and increases fat storage. Bad news.
 
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