Training myths?

[vinylgroover]

Ever since i started lifting weights, one thing about our sport that has been a constant source of aggravation is the many myths that surround training. Here are some.

1. That a muscle can be hit at different 'angles'

2. Preacher curls will 'fill' the gap between the elbow and bicep.

3. Higher reps will increase definition.

4. That isolation movements will help 'shape' the muscle

5. leg extensions will separate or define the quads.

Please feel free to add to the list. It may give those starting out a valuable insight into much of the bullshit that can surround the sport at times.

 

[COL KURTZ]

1. The body doesn't start burning fat until 15 minutes into your cardio

2. Carbs at night make you fat

3. Leg extensions to add separation in the quads

4. Behind the neck pulldowns to get a better contraction

5. Hundreds of crunches to give you a six pack

5. Roids are deadly

 

[strong island]

Ever since i started lifting weights, one thing about our sport that has been a constant source of aggravation is the many myths that surround training. Here are some.

1. That a muscle can be hit at different 'angles'

2. Preacher curls will 'fill' the gap between the elbow and bicep.

3. Higher reps will increase definition.

4. That isolation movements will help 'shape' the muscle

5. leg extensions will separate or define the quads.

Please feel free to add to the list. It may give those starting out a valuable insight into much of the bullshit that can surround the sport at times.

Number one is not a myth.

 

[The Shadow]

lol @ some of the Myths listed....

 

[needsize]

Re: Re: Training myths?

Number one is not a myth.

I agree, otherwise all those dudes that only flat bench would all have well balanced chests, instead of the granny tits most seem to get!

 

[Thaibox]

Also agree that #1 shouldn't be included, other than that....

1. Squatting below parallel is bad for your knees

2. Olympic lifts will not make you grow

3. Big muscles slow you down

4. Leg presses are just as effective as squats

5. You cannot deadlift with two crushed discs(what my physical therapist told me 5 years ago) I'm dead'ing 515 now so

6. Chicks don't dig big muscles

 

[doubles1]

this is a huge one for newbies

1. Training chest, bis, and tris 5 days a week will make you huge...

 

[strong island]

5. You cannot deadlift with two crushed discs(what my physical therapist told me 5 years ago) I'm dead'ing 515 now so

NICE! Karma for you mang

 

[ZZuluZ]

1.) You have to train to failure
2.) You have to hit each body part once a week

-Zulu

 

[Mjollnir]

#117: Dumbbell (other otherwise) pullovers will 'expand your ribcage'.

 

[FitnessFrk]

Mjollnir...that's the best one !

most newbies will tell you "But Arnold did them !" LMAO !!!!!!

 

[coolcolj]

1) Concentration curls peak your biceps

2) Wide grip pullups make your lats wider

 

[vinylgroover]

2) Wide grip pullups make your lats wider

Nice one cool col j

 

[Lumbuss]

Re: Re: Training myths?

Number one is not a myth.

Your right, it is possible to hit differnent muscles at different angles. Now why anyone would want to do this is beyond me though.

Here is another myth.

1. You can get a larger upper chest by doing inclines over flat db presses.

2. You have to do inclines and declines to balance your chest.

3. Flyes target the inner chest (LMAO).

4. Inclines serve a purpose.

5. You can change the shape of a muscle without surgery.

 

[vinylgroover]

Re: Re: Re: Training myths?

Your right, it is possible to hit differnent muscles at different angles. Now why anyone would want to do this is beyond me though.

Here is another myth.

1. You can get a larger upper chest by doing inclines over flat db presses.

2. You have to do inclines and declines to balance your chest.

3. Flyes target the inner chest (LMAO).

4. Inclines serve a purpose.

5. You can change the shape of a muscle without surgery.

LMAO for number 5

 

[coolcolj]

actually you can - a bit of synthol goes a long way

 

[WannaBPowerful]

Haha.

Cool got ya there.

One question of one cool posted. You cant work on peaking your biceps??? I thought all outer head work peaks your biceps? Clear this up for me please.

 

[ZZuluZ]

" One question of one cool posted. You cant work on peaking your biceps??? I thought all outer head work peaks your biceps? Clear this up for me please.
"

Genetically predetermined. You can work your biceps, not the peak, width, etc....

-Zulu

 

[strong island]

One of the great things about bodybuilding is that many FACTS and MYTHS are basically THEORIES.

Five years from now we will laugh at what we believe today.

And I do laugh at the shit I used to do 10 years ago.

Thats the beauty of this sport we love: It is a work in progress....

And we are the guinea pigs.

I am going to do the gym to have a sick chest bi workout.

Oh yeah I am going to try and hit the upper chest with inclines and I am going to try and improve the outer head of my biceps.

Peace

 

[benchmonster]

My favorite is that you have to move the bar slowly to show you have control of the weight.

Back before I escaped to the Dungeon, I used to have people tell me I was moving the bar too fast when benching. WTF?

I also recall some of these gym heroes who insisted that dumbells for bench were just as good as barbell benches, and leg extensions and ham curls will do you just as much good as squatting.

B.

 

[ZZuluZ]

"I also recall some of these gym heroes who insisted that dumbells for bench were just as good as barbell benches"

Some would argue they are better. Why do you think this is wrong?

-Zulu

 

[strong island]

My favorite is that you have to move the bar slowly to show you have control of the weight.

Back before I escaped to the Dungeon, I used to have people tell me I was moving the bar too fast when benching. WTF?

I also recall some of these gym heroes who insisted that dumbells for bench were just as good as barbell benches, and leg extensions and ham curls will do you just as much good as squatting.

B.

Many so called experts agree that tempo plays a crucial role in hypertrophy.

What do mean when you say fast. Cause I used to know a kid that would basically bounce the barbell off his chest. He was more concerned with how much weight was on the bar rather than how much weight his pecs were actually lifting.

And dumbells and barbells are both excellent (In my opinion)

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Yeah, I'd like to hear how this is as well.

I said it in another thread, and noone ever responded to it. The free-weight barbell bench is the in-between of the dumbbell bench and a smith machine bench (or any machine for that mattter). If you believe having to stabilize the weight is a good thing - DB's are where you want to be, if you believe that placing as much weight on the bar for the increased tension on the targeted muscles is best, then the machine would seem to be the better bet.

I don't understand the logic behind thinking the BB bench is the best of the bunch.

 

[benchmonster]

I am a competitive bench presser. I never ever ever bounce a barbell off my chest. I do however have extremely good bar speed once it starts going back up. Always touch and go in the gym, and always paused in a meet.

Irishpower will be putting up some video clips of me benching soon on the powerlifting board for examples of my speed. Bar speed is the key to benching (or squatting or pulling) maximal weights.

There are other reasons to bench besides building pretty pecs. Guys who bench with their elbows under the bar, and move the bar slow enough to feel the burn are not going double bodyweight plus on their benches very often.

Speed kills.

B.

 

[benchmonster]

And regarding dumbells, nothing wrong with them at all. But I have my doubts as to whether you could give up the barbell for dumbells, and break many records on your bench.

I do dumbells occasionally for a rep max, I think they are great for building your stabilizer muscles. I actually only do dumbell bench while laying on a stability ball for the ultimate in stabilizer work. But you cannot just use dumbells and build a 500 plus bench. I probably was not clear in my original post.

I meant to say that it is a myth to think that isolation movements will work just as well as compound movements. They both have their place, but if one had to go, by by isolations.

B.

 

[strong island]

I am a competitive bench presser. I never ever ever bounce a barbell off my chest. I do however have extremely good bar speed once it starts going back up. Always touch and go in the gym, and always paused in a meet.

Irishpower will be putting up some video clips of me benching soon on the powerlifting board for examples of my speed. Bar speed is the key to benching (or squatting or pulling) maximal weights.

There are other reasons to bench besides building pretty pecs. Guys who bench with their elbows under the bar, and move the bar slow enough to feel the burn are not going double bodyweight plus on their benches very often.

Speed kills.

B.

There are Powerlifters and Bodybuilders. Explosiveness is very very important in weightlifting and for funcional strength in most sports(like football).

Many guys(who consider themselves BB's) sometimes train with a slower tempo because their main priority is hypertrophy.

I am usually explosive on the concentric but I usually like to have a slow eccentric portion of the lift. But sometimes I am also slow on the concentric. It depends.

But my main focus is to build some "pretty pecs"...but I also enjoy bettering my lifts.

I am looking forward to seeing the videos bro.

SI

 

[HansNZ]

1.) You have to train to failure
2.) You have to hit each body part once a week

-Zulu

OK, I realise this is going to make me sound like a bit of a newbie, but instead of training to failure what do you do instead?

I don't train as hard as my buddies. I normally do 3-4 sets but don't kill myself doing them. However, I still grow. In any case I feel sore afterwards and change my exercises regularly. I was wondering whether I would grow much better if I trained to failure?

What I have noticed is that the guys who train 110% are often laid off with injuries whereas I never get injured so my gains are more consistent.

Feedback anyone?

 

[JOKER47]

OK, I realise this is going to make me sound like a bit of a newbie, but instead of training to failure what do you do instead?

I don't train as hard as my buddies. I normally do 3-4 sets but don't kill myself doing them. However, I still grow. In any case I feel sore afterwards and change my exercises regularly. I was wondering whether I would grow much better if I trained to failure?

What I have noticed is that the guys who train 110% are often laid off with injuries whereas I never get injured so my gains are more consistent.

Feedback anyone?

Here's a thread where it was discussed.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=151007

Joker

 

[benchmonster]

Hanz,

Don't go to failure, what you are doing right now, stopping short of failure and changing exercises often is a very smart way to train.

Strong Island,

I could not agree with you more. Bodybuilding and powerlifting are two different things altogether. It seems few people in commercial gyms realize this. They think everyone is looking for the same thing.

Some are going for a certain look. I am going for a triple bodyweight bench. The vids should be up next week, unless something goes wrong. Not sure what he will show, I sent him a tape with a bunch of different lifts. I am hoping he will show the 600 lb 2 board reverse band press. Even at that weight, it was pretty fast, with a good pause on the boards.

No I am not tanned, ripped and vascular. That is not what I am after, and I don't know if I could get there if I shot for it. No 6 pack either. I am sporting a keg!!!

B.

 

[greenday]

The number 1 myth I see, fat people working their abs, I swear they will do 20 sets a day. All they are doing is rolling their stomach fat like kneading dough. You have to diet to see a 6 pack, it would be funny as hell to see a 5'4 350 lb woman with a 6 pack, and I don't mean beer.

 

[ZZuluZ]

"OK, I realise this is going to make me sound like a bit of a newbie, but instead of training to failure what do you do instead? "

Stay 1-2 reps short of failure. This is probably the best advice you'll ever hear and almost everyone here will disagree with me.

Going to failure puts your CNS under a great deal of stress. Your muscles will recuperate in 3-4 days but you'll take a week off to rest your CNS.

Going 1-2 reps from failure allows you to increase volume and frequency.

-Zulu

 

[benchmonster]

"OK, I realise this is going to make me sound like a bit of a newbie, but instead of training to failure what do you do instead? "

Stay 1-2 reps short of failure. This is probably the best advice you'll ever hear and almost everyone here will disagree with me.

Going to failure puts your CNS under a great deal of stress. Your muscles will recuperate in 3-4 days but you'll take a week off to rest your CNS.

Going 1-2 reps from failure allows you to increase volume and frequency.

-Zulu

I completely agree with Zulu. I also agree with him that many on this board will say you must train to failure. They are wrong. Zulu is right.

B.

 

[JOKER47]

Would someone please define again the definition of failure? I lift until I can't lift one more rep for that set. I don't do forced or negatives. I can't imagine less than that being beneficial.

Is there another definition of "going to failure"?


Thanks,
Joker

 

[ZZuluZ]

By failure I'm referring too concentric failure.

'I can't imagine less than that being beneficial. "

Neither could I. Neither could most people. It's become such a present paradigm.

Thanks benchmonster. Been taking a lot of crap in the last few threads I've entered...thanks for the support

-Zulu

 

[JOKER47]

ZZuluZ...

I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not....

Are you saying going until you can't get one more rep out of a set is "bad", or you agree with the way I do it? Which IS the way I just described......??


Just clarifying,
Joker

 

[ZZuluZ]

Well, let's say you can 10 reps with 300 pounds on the bench. The last rep is very very slow and you gave it all you had. It's the last one in you. That's concentric failure.

I'd advocate doing 8-9 reps or perhaps even less. Really depends on your volume, effort, frequency, time constraints, etc..

-Zulu

 

[JOKER47]

Ok. I guess I feel that if that last rep, albeit very slow, is still in correct form, then I say do that rep as your last. (Rep 10) (That would be MY version of "to failure".)
But if you can't keep correct form, the rep BEFORE it was the last rep. (Rep 9) (Make sense?)


.02,
Joker

 

[ZZuluZ]

Then you're not going to failure, which is good.

-Zulu

 

[GUNS/Navarone]

One of the great things about bodybuilding is that many FACTS and MYTHS are basically THEORIES.

Oh yeah I am going to try and hit the upper chest with inclines and I am going to try and improve the outer head of my biceps.

Peace

Not to flame you at all, but what works for you and I MAY be different. Although if you follow the exact technique, what works for one should work for another??
SO yes I can indeed target my outer bicep very effectively if that is what I want.
I can hit my upper chest more so than my lower, if I work on it.
Inline db press and flys were all I really did, and my upper chest was very good.
Gave that up to concentrate on flat bench, upper chest suffered somewhat.
I know this debate has gone on here for some time, but if it works for someone and they now it dose, so be it.
All the best

 

[strong island]

Not to flame you at all, but what works for you and I MAY be different. Although if you follow the exact technique, what works for one should work for another??
SO yes I can indeed target my outer bicep very effectively if that is what I want.
I can hit my upper chest more so than my lower, if I work on it.
Inline db press and flys were all I really did, and my upper chest was very good.
Gave that up to concentrate on flat bench, upper chest suffered somewhat.
I know this debate has gone on here for some time, but if it works for someone and they now it dose, so be it.
All the best

Whats up bro...welcome to the board. I think you misunderstood.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I went to the gym and did just that...AND had a great fucking workout.

 

[GUNS/Navarone]

AH I see, I thought you said it in a sarcastic way, that it couldn't be done.
I was just saying that I could
Sorry about the mix up. Hope I didn't come across badly as it wasn't meant that way.
Cheers.

 

[sorerotators]

Well, let's say you can 10 reps with 300 pounds on the bench. The last rep is very very slow and you gave it all you had. It's the last one in you. That's concentric failure.

I'd advocate doing 8-9 reps or perhaps even less. Really depends on your volume, effort, frequency, time constraints, etc..

-Zulu

If you never go to failure, or even close to failure, what reason does your muscle have to grow?

 

[ZZuluZ]

"If you never go to failure, or even close to failure, what reason does your muscle have to grow?"

The imposed demand.

You think muscles only grow if you've pushed them to their utter limit?

Try telling that to Olympic Lifters, Powerlifters, etc...

-Zulu

 

[benchmonster]

Regarding the question of what is going to failure. I think Zzulu is so smart sometimes that he uses terms not understood by many on the board. Let me take a stab at a workable definintion of training to failure.

Training to failure is when you keep doing reps with a certain weight on a given exercise till you MISS A REP. That is, when you are going for a set of 10 on the bench, and the 10th rep stops on the way up and comes crashing down on your chest. Or never gets off your chest in the first place.

That is what training to failure is. If you do that all the time, you will screw yourself up.

B.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Seems we're using different terminology.

If you fail at a rep, you're essentially going beyond failure IMHO because then your spotter is helping you with the rest of that repetition.

It should be pointed out that there are several types of failure:

Concentric Failure- Not being able to raise the weight

Isometric Failure- Not being able to hold the weight statically

Eccentric Failure- Not being able to lower the weight under control. In reality eccentric failure cannot be reached unless you tear your muscle apart.


-Zulu

 

[sorerotators]

"If you never go to failure, or even close to failure, what reason does your muscle have to grow?"

The imposed demand.

You think muscles only grow if you've pushed them to their utter limit?

Try telling that to Olympic Lifters, Powerlifters, etc...

-Zulu

I guess i'm missing something. What is the imposed demand?

 

[ZZuluZ]

Imposed demand...the demand place on the body.

The myth that muscles only grow because they HAVE to and that failure is the only way of achieving this is false.

There is plenty of empirical evidence for this; especially what concerns synaptic facilitation. Look at manual laborers, strongmen, powerlifters, olympic lifters, etc..

-Zulu

 

[sorerotators]

Imposed demand...the demand place on the body.

The myth that muscles only grow because they HAVE to and that failure is the only way of achieving this is false.

There is plenty of empirical evidence for this; especially what concerns synaptic facilitation. Look at manual laborers, strongmen, powerlifters, olympic lifters, etc..

-Zulu

You still havn't explained what the imposed demand is.

Using your example. If a person can lift a weight for ten reps (the tenth being failure), you recommend stopping short at 8-9 or even less.

If the muscle doing the lifting is working well within its capacity, what is the imposed demand on the body to increase by hypertrophy?

And i assume we are talking about hypertrophy? Because i see you referring to all weightlifters as examples.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

The growth basically comes from the damage to the muscle. You don't need failure for that to occur.

 

[Phenotype X]

Seems we're using different terminology.

If you fail at a rep, you're essentially going beyond failure IMHO because then your spotter is helping you with the rest of that repetition.

It should be pointed out that there are several types of failure:

Concentric Failure- Not being able to raise the weight

Isometric Failure- Not being able to hold the weight statically

Eccentric Failure- Not being able to lower the weight under control. In reality eccentric failure cannot be reached unless you tear your muscle apart.


-Zulu

Good info ZULU. I never knew the difference between these types of failure. I agree with your logic on this post.

 

[ZZuluZ]

'You still havn't explained what the imposed demand is"

Dude, imposed demand is any demand placed on the body. ANY demand. I'm just using the term loosely here let's not get hung up on it.

" If the muscle doing the lifting is working well within its capacity, what is the imposed demand on the body to increase by hypertrophy? "

The demand is there to lift the weight 8-9 times. I know you think that if you don't go to failure you're body won't adapt and act like it's absolutely nothing but this is a false paradigm too many have been adhering too...

'And i assume we are talking about hypertrophy? Because i see you referring to all weightlifters as examples."

Yes. I'm referring to both.

Hypertrophy is not a result of effort [although load is crucial..] . In loose terms it is a result of WORK DONE. [I am not using the physics definition of work done here]. I say loose terms because it's not the only conrtibuting factors; mechanical load is another, etc... Now your muscles are not the only thing working here-- your CNS is being taxed as well.

When you go to failure it takes about 7 days to recover [generalization, depends on many factors, but this is a guideline]. However your muscles have recovered within 2-4 days. If you were NOT training to failure you'd be able to hit your muscles every 2-4 days and not have to wait an entire week for your CNS to recuperate.

'Good info ZULU. I never knew the difference between these types of failure. I agree with your logic on this post."

Glad I was helpful.

Hope this post clarifies a few things. I haven't gone in depth at all here....this is just scratching the surface.


-Zulu

 

[louden_swain]

People forget that everyone is built differently, therefore exercise selection, sets, reps, or whatever will affect everyone in a different way.

 

[sorerotators]

'You still havn't explained what the imposed demand is"

Dude, imposed demand is any demand placed on the body. ANY demand. I'm just using the term loosely here let's not get hung up on it.

" If the muscle doing the lifting is working well within its capacity, what is the imposed demand on the body to increase by hypertrophy? "

The demand is there to lift the weight 8-9 times. I know you think that if you don't go to failure you're body won't adapt and act like it's absolutely nothing but this is a false paradigm too many have been adhering too...

'And i assume we are talking about hypertrophy? Because i see you referring to all weightlifters as examples."

Yes. I'm referring to both.

Hypertrophy is not a result of effort [although load is crucial..] . In loose terms it is a result of WORK DONE. [I am not using the physics definition of work done here]. I say loose terms because it's not the only conrtibuting factors; mechanical load is another, etc... Now your muscles are not the only thing working here-- your CNS is being taxed as well.

When you go to failure it takes about 7 days to recover [generalization, depends on many factors, but this is a guideline]. However your muscles have recovered within 2-4 days. If you were NOT training to failure you'd be able to hit your muscles every 2-4 days and not have to wait an entire week for your CNS to recuperate.

'Good info ZULU. I never knew the difference between these types of failure. I agree with your logic on this post."

Glad I was helpful.

Hope this post clarifies a few things. I haven't gone in depth at all here....this is just scratching the surface.


-Zulu

What you are trying to describe has been widely known in the powerlifting/weightlifting community for years.

It has also been well known to not be the best way to achieve hypertrophy.

There was no need to get your panties in a bind "Dude".

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Well known as not the best way to acheive hypertrophy? How so?

 

[ZZuluZ]

"It has also been well known to not be the best way to achieve hypertrophy.

There was no need to get your panties in a bind "Dude"."

Actually, it applies to hypertrophy as well as I have explained.

-Zulu

 

[lemur]

last I checked, ZZuluZ's panties weren't all fucked up, he was just being informant...

I appreciate this information, I'll need to make the corresponding adjustements in my routine... it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[lemur]

a question for you too, ZZuluZ.

How taxing do you think taking lets say, two sets of an entire workout to failure is on CNS? Or is this what you were referring to before? For instance, lets say I'm on my last rep of a 12 rep OHP, and I'm so determined to get the rep that I use all available strength in my delts and then some leg strength to get it up (essentially performing a push press), will this impare CNS recovery greatly, or not much at all? Would I most likely be better to stop around the 9-11 rep range, or just go all out?

 

[ZZuluZ]

'last I checked, ZZuluZ's panties weren't all fucked up, he was just being informant... "

Thanks

'Would I most likely be better to stop around the 9-11 rep range, or just go all out?"

You'd be better off stoping short. I know it's tempting to really give it your all, but those last few reps really aren't worth it in terms of elongating recovery times.

As a sidenote, going to failure on isolation movements is not as stressing on the CNS. I really would avoid it on compound movements tho.

You'll be able to use more volume/frequency assuming your work capacity is high enough.

In terms of adjusting your routine, you can train more often and do a few extra sets.

-Zulu

 

[coolcolj]

I think it depends on how you fail.

Say your doing squats , and you hit the 8th rep, you pull it off, but it was a bit slower than the the 7th rep.

Then you start the 9th rep, and you have to bust your nuts to break through the sticking point, and it took you 4 secs to complete the rep. Then you try the 10th rep and fail.

That 9th rep hit your CNS pretty damn hard.
Do this for every set of your workout and that's gotta hurt something.

But if you were to do that same 9th rep, and then "failed" at first sign of excessive exertion, then your fine.

I think a good guide is to call off the set once your rep speed falls significantly lower than the first few reps.

 

[HulkRow]

this is a huge one for newbies

1. Training chest, bis, and tris 5 days a week will make you huge...

complete FICTION

 

[RedTide]

I have to completely agree with all this....been training for 14years (now 29) and over the past two to three years ago I increased my reps for what I thought would add endurance ( I was doing alot of triathlons). Anyway, I stopped the tris about a year ago and have been getting tendonitis in just about every conceivable joint...it keeps me away from weight trainng and forces me to modify my routines alot. I am definitely going to change up and stop going to "failure", drop the reps a bit and hopefully see a benefit. Never done any gear or anything, so I do not look like a BB or anything to that effect.

All those high reps add up to badness over the long run. Cardio for endurance...not with the weights, or even dips and pullups.

yeah, also my first post...been a lurker for a few months