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Time for a HEATED DEBATE

T

Texas Monster

New member
ALL right Fellow Bros,

It is time for a heated debate.

This thread is going to pertain to active life, half life, pct start times.

1st off Test cyp has a half life of 7 days. After 10+weeks of administration of say over 350mg+ a week Levels should be high enough to either

A: Be cleared in 3-4 weeks
B: Be cleared in 14 days after last pin
C: Clear when the ester is completly broken down ( how ever long that might take because detection time is 6 months)

I decided to do this after reading a thread and seeing some conflicting ideas.

People say to start PCT 2 weeks after last pin which seems to be a good transistion.

However If it is true that test stays in the system for 4 weeks that means you are really only pcting for 2 solid weeks.

Using PCT calculator shows that you will still have high levels 4 weeks out. Most experienced users feel the crash after 2 weeks if they do not start to PCT.

Looking for a lot of feedback here guys. What do you think? PCT calculator wrong? Or are we thinking about half life vs active life vs how long it actually takes to break down the entire ester and release all of the hormone injected.

GO!
 
I will be the first.

By going off the PCT calculator we can see that there are still high levels after 4 weeks after the last pin.

This has to be because not all of the hormone is being released simultaneously correct? The ester allows it to be broken down slowly and then once broken down it will half an active life of 10-14 days.

Or is it that after injection it takes 8 days to break down the ester and hormone all together?
 
2weeks bro, after you hit half life your crashing, 2 weeks later your rock bottom, you don't wanna wait till you're rock bottom to start pct IMO
 
S according to the half life of test C, after 7 days half of it has been dispersed, and after another 7 days another half has been dispersed.

Statistically then after 14 days there is only .25 of the initial level remaining, this amount would be back in the normal range.

14 days seems to be a good time to start PCT. Of course u should be primed by this time from using HCgenerate or HCG to start natural production again
 
Great thread BTW, can't wait to see some alternative views.

Nelson is gonna pipe in here soon and say to start pct right after the last pin :)
 
This is simplified to dosing once every 7 days as it makes it easier to explain. The 7 day half-life makes it a pretty simple problem.

Basically, the amount of test in your body is going to equilibrate at ~2x the weekly dose. In your scenario, that's a maximum of ~700mg with a 350mg weekly dose. The amount in the body is going to fluctuate between 350mg and 700mg once equilibrium is reached.

Here's some math for those that might be interested.

Week Dose mg in Circulation after Dose
1 350mg 350mg
2 350mg (350mg-175mg) + 350mg = 525mg
3 350mg (525mg - 263mg) + 350mg = 612mg
4 350mg (612 - 306) + 350 = 656mg
5 350mg (656 - 328) + 350 = 678mg
6 350mg (678 - 339) + 350 = 689mg
7 350mg (689 - 344) + 350 = 695mg
8 350mg (695 - 347) + 350 = 698mg
9-12? 350mg ~700mg

7 days after the last injection of 350mg, you're back down to 350mg of test in circulation. Day 14, your down to 175mg. That's near the range of what you would see from a HRT dose of 150mg/week with min/max ranges of 150mg to 300mg in circulation. HRT levels at 2 weeks when your body is accustomed to 2-3x that concentration of test is probably responsible for the perceived crash.

Even with the long esters, the test levels are going to drop off quick. Test is still in your system at 2 weeks, but the goal of PCT is to get the HPTA back in gear before you hit rock bottom. Waiting 4 weeks would put you in a testosterone deficit for quite a while as you wait on the HPTA to regain normal function. That deficit would make it pretty hard to hold onto your gains.



Texas Monster said:
ALL right Fellow Bros,

It is time for a heated debate.

This thread is going to pertain to active life, half life, pct start times.

1st off Test cyp has a half life of 7 days. After 10+weeks of administration of say over 350mg+ a week Levels should be high enough to either

A: Be cleared in 3-4 weeks
B: Be cleared in 14 days after last pin
C: Clear when the ester is completly broken down ( how ever long that might take because detection time is 6 months)

I decided to do this after reading a thread and seeing some conflicting ideas.

People say to start PCT 2 weeks after last pin which seems to be a good transistion.

However If it is true that test stays in the system for 4 weeks that means you are really only pcting for 2 solid weeks.

Using PCT calculator shows that you will still have high levels 4 weeks out. Most experienced users feel the crash after 2 weeks if they do not start to PCT.

Looking for a lot of feedback here guys. What do you think? PCT calculator wrong? Or are we thinking about half life vs active life vs how long it actually takes to break down the entire ester and release all of the hormone injected.

GO!
Click to expand...
 
Texas Monster said:
ALL right Fellow Bros,


SORRY FOR THE CAPS BUT I'M DOING IT TO MAKE THE RESPONSE EASIER.


It is time for a heated debate.

This thread is going to pertain to active life, half life, pct start times.

1st off Test cyp has a half life of 7 days. After 10+weeks of administration of say over 350mg+ a week Levels should be high enough to either

................................................


NOT SURE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT IT'S A COMMON MISUNDERSTANDING THAT LEVELS CONTINUE TO RISE. THIS IS WHY IT'S RIDICULOSU TO SAY THAT IT TAKES TEST 3 WEEKS TO "KICK IN" . BY WEEK THREE -- THE FIRST SHOT IS ESSENTIALLY GONE.


......................


A: Be cleared in 3-4 weeks

..............

CLEARING AND BEING ACTIVE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.



....................

B: Be cleared in 14 days after last pin

..................

IT'LL ESSENTIALLY BE INACTIVE AFTER 14 DAYS, YES.


..................
C: Clear when the ester is completly broken down ( how ever long that might take because detection time is 6 months)

.........................

NOT TEST. DECA, YES.


.......................

I decided to do this after reading a thread and seeing some conflicting ideas.

People say to start PCT 2 weeks after last pin which seems to be a good transistion.

....................

I SAY NO. IT TAKES ABOUT A WEEK FOR THE PCT TO KICK IN, SO WHY WAIT WHEN IT HAS MORE TO DO? IN OTHER WORDS, WHY NOT USE UNLEASHED AND GET FREET AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE. WHY NOT USE HCG WHEN YOU STILL HAVE TEST IN YOUR BODY? IT TAKES UNLEASHED ABOUT 4-5 DAYS TO WORK ANYWAY.



......................

However If it is true that test stays in the system for 4 weeks that means you are really only pcting for 2 solid weeks.

.................................

BUT THAT'S WHERE THE WHOLE THING FALLS APART. 4 WEEKS AFTER YOUR LAST PIN, T LEVELS WILL BE DRAMATICALLY LOWER. PLUS, YOU LH WILL BE IN SINGLE DIGITS. YOU NEED AS MUCH FREE TEST AS POSSIBLE AT THAT POINT AND YOU NEED YOUR HPTA WOKEN UP FROM ITS DORMANT STATE.


....................

Using PCT calculator shows that you will still have high levels 4 weeks out. Most experienced users feel the crash after 2 weeks if they do not start to PCT.

................

THERE'S YOUR ANSWER.


...................

Looking for a lot of feedback here guys. What do you think? PCT calculator wrong? Or are we thinking about half life vs active life vs how long it actually takes to break down the entire ester and release all of the hormone injected.

..........................


INJECTABLES ARE A NATURAL TAPER. THEY PEAK AFTER A DAY OR TWO, THEN SLOWLY DISSAPATE. THIS IS WHY HRT IS BEST EVERY WEEK. EVERY 14 DAYS WOULD CAUSE TOO MUCH OF A DIP, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE BE "SOME" TESTOSTERONE IN YOUR SYSTEM. BUT REMEMBER, WHEN YOU TAKE A SHOT, YOU STILL HAVE LAST WEEKS SHOT IN YOU. WHEN YOU DO YOUR LAST SHOT -- THERE'S NO BACKUP. SO SUPPRESSION, AS WELL AS LOWER T LEVELS CAN START AS SOON AS 7 DAYS LATER. AND LEVELS WILL DROP BELOW BASELINE WITHIN 14-21 DAYS.

!
Click to expand...



.........
 
I just tore through my filing cabinet looking for my last blood work but came up empty handed but I'll share my thought anyways. I wondered the same thing while on my last cycle so I used myself as a guinea pig. My cycle was a simple sustanon only cycle at 400mg a week for 10 weeks. After my my last injection I waited until week three. I ran no pct, HCG or any kind of supplement at all between my last injection and getting my blood drawn three weeks after. My test came back at 297 ng/dL. My cholesterol was just past the healthy rang and my LH was dead. I wish i could find that blood test and post more accurate numbers. Yes my gear was legit and from a very reputable source. So basically the conclusion I came to was that after the 7 day half life of the longer esters, my T levels started dropping dramatically, not like a lot of people think. It obviously doesn't get cut in half every week that goes by but more on how fast your body metabolizes. JMO.


When we do right nobody remembers, when we do wrong nobody forgets. H.A.M.C
 
2 quick things because on page 1 things were addressed well.

1. yes juice does build up in the body. a long estered test for example will take weeks to peak in the blood. is it working after injection? YES it is i'm not argueing that. but is it peaking? NO.. how could it be peaking in the blood that fast? it takes weeks to build up to peak levels and level off... as you make injections the esters are picking up after each other and trickling away, as you continue injections it builds to a higher and higher level like stairs climbing.. if you inject every 3.5 days then there will be a small bump up and up. once the amount you have been on equals the speed of the esters dropping away you have reached peak levels and now are leveling off and you are walking on a hilly surface and no long climbing.. but your blood levels will fluctuate slightly until you stop injecting.

2. there is no way after 14 days even if the half life was 8 days is not active in the body assuming you were juicing say 500mg a week .. it would have built up to high levels in the body and take much longer than 14 days to trickle away. in my experience the stuff is in my body a good 4 weeks after last pin.. i know cause I have bloods as I cycle AAS off and on. now if you do a couple shots then stop that is different, or if you are running a small HRT dose that is difference as well but the OP is not talking about HRT doses. in that case you are 100% correct because with HRT doses they are once a week and they are much smaller amounts so it would trickle away to very low levels much faster, but if we are talking about 500mg a week or more dosage which most everyone does then you are not correct, there will be AMPLE amounts of test in the body leftover after 2 weeks if we are talking about cyp.

as far as when to start PCT we don't disagree on that necessarily. after last injection kickstart and spread out hcg and HMG for about 3 weeks. then start PCT and run it about 5-6 weeks. assuming the cycle was 12-14 weeks that should work well.
 
Last edited:
Just to muddy the waters, calculators only take into account chemical breakdown. Location of injection also plays a role in release time.
 
stevesmi said:
2 quick things because on page 1 things were addressed well.

1. yes juice does build up in the body. a long estered test for example will take weeks to peak in the blood. is it working after injection? YES it is i'm not argueing that. but is it peaking? NO.. how could it be peaking in the blood that fast?

...............................


MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. IT DOES PEAK? IT DOESN'T? I'M NOT GETTING WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY HERE.


...............................

it takes weeks to build up to peak levels and level off... as you make injections the esters are picking up after each other and trickling away, as you continue injections it builds to a higher and higher level like stairs climbing..

....................................

2 WEEKS TO BE EXACT. AFTER THAT, THERE IS NO BUILD UP BECAUSE THE INJECTIONS MORE THAN 2 WEEKS OLD ARE INERT AT THAT POINT.

.............................................




if you inject every 3.5 days then there will be a small bump up and up. once the amount you have been on equals the speed of the esters dropping away you have reached peak levels and now are leveling off and you are walking on a hilly surface and no long climbing.. but your blood levels will fluctuate slightly until you stop injecting.

......................

NO ARGUMENT THERE.

...........................

2. there is no way after 14 days even if the half life was 8 days is not active in the body assuming you were juicing say 500mg a week ..

.........................

DOSAGE IS IRRELEVANT. YOU CAN INJECT 5000 MGS, IT'S STILL ALMOST GONE AFTER 2 WEEKS.


...............................


it would have built up to high levels in the body and take much longer than 14 days to trickle away.

.................

NOT SO. THAT WAHT AN ESTER DOES -- IT DISSIPATES OVER TIME. THAT'S WHY PROP IS A "HARDER HIT" YOU GET IT ALL AT ONCE AND IT LASTS ONLY 48 HOURS.



.................................

in my experience the stuff is in my body a good 4 weeks after last pin..

.................
SO IF YOU DO A GRAM A WEEK FOR 10 WEEKS, THEN STOP, YOU;RE SAYING YOU WILL STILL HAVE SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL T LEVELS IN YOUR BLOOD 28 DAYS AFTER YOUR LAST SHOT WITHOUT ANY PCT? THAT CAN'T BE.


.......................................


i know cause I have bloods as I cycle AAS off and on. now if you do a couple shots then stop that is different, or if you are running a small HRT dose that is difference as well but the OP is not talking about HRT doses. in that case you are 100% correct because with HRT doses they are once a week and they are much smaller amounts so it would trickle away to very low levels much faster, but if we are talking about 500mg a week or more dosage which most everyone does then you are not correct, there will be AMPLE amounts of test in the body leftover after 2 weeks if we are talking about cyp.

as far as when to start PCT we don't disagree on that necessarily. after last injection kickstart and spread out hcg and HMG for about 3 weeks. then start PCT and run it about 5-6 weeks. assuming the cycle was 12-14 weeks that should work well.
..................

I DISAGREE WITH USING HCG FOR 3 WEEKS. THERE'S NO POINT TO IT. IT WON'T KEEP LEVELS UP. IT'S JUST A KICKSTART. THAT WOULD BE LIKE BEING ON A DIVING BOARD AND BOUNCING UP AND DOWN FOR 10 MINUTES THINKING YOU CAN GO HIGHER AND HIGHER. NO. IT'LL ONLY GO SO HIGH.
Click to expand...


.....
 
So you can have those high levels still in you but they wont be active?

So you should be going off the active life for pct not half like correct?

So going into PCT for a 12+week cycle would look something like this.

Finish HCG 5 days prior to the 14 days we wait to start clomid therapy after the last pin of Test?
 
This leads me to another question then.....and theory.

As far as trade offs of using shorter esters and longer esters.

When we use short esters we start the PCT 2 days after last inject. Doesnt this mean in the next 4 weeks we are taking clomid that there will be a yoyo effect?

Instead with long esters you start clomid 10-14 days after last pin then you have a transition time where your HPTA will slowly start kicking back in at the rate that the rest of the active test is leaving your system. This way when you have no external test your HPTA should be full functioning and bringing your nat test up.

Wouldnt it be more beneficial to run a longer ester cycle then. Because With the short you are waiting those extra weeks to bring your hpta back from clomid but the esters will drop at a hell of a lot faster rate then long esters.
 
Quote posted by stevesmi
2 quick things because on page 1 things were addressed well.

1. yes juice does build up in the body. a long estered test for example will take weeks to peak in the blood. is it working after injection? YES it is i'm not argueing that. but is it peaking? NO.. how could it be peaking in the blood that fast?

...............................


MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. IT DOES PEAK? IT DOESN'T? I'M NOT GETTING WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY HERE.

no it does peak.. once it builds up it peaks, goes steady bouncing around a bit, once you inject for the last time it trickles away. i'm saying it has to build up in the body to peak, takes a few weeks to build up.


...............................

it takes weeks to build up to peak levels and level off... as you make injections the esters are picking up after each other and trickling away, as you continue injections it builds to a higher and higher level like stairs climbing..

....................................

2 WEEKS TO BE EXACT. AFTER THAT, THERE IS NO BUILD UP BECAUSE THE INJECTIONS MORE THAN 2 WEEKS OLD ARE INERT AT THAT POINT.

with test cyp ? I would peg it for at 4 weeks to reach peak levels. something like deca or EQ will take a bit longer. dbol or beastdrol takes a week to reach peak levels
.............................................




if you inject every 3.5 days then there will be a small bump up and up. once the amount you have been on equals the speed of the esters dropping away you have reached peak levels and now are leveling off and you are walking on a hilly surface and no long climbing.. but your blood levels will fluctuate slightly until you stop injecting.

......................

NO ARGUMENT THERE.

...........................

2. there is no way after 14 days even if the half life was 8 days is not active in the body assuming you were juicing say 500mg a week ..

.........................

DOSAGE IS IRRELEVANT. YOU CAN INJECT 5000 MGS, IT'S STILL ALMOST GONE AFTER 2 WEEKS.

how can that be? if it has an 8 day half life for example and you inject 5K, after 8 days half would be live in the body.. thats still 2500mgs.. then after 16 days 1250.. then after 24 days 625 and so on. plus whatever mg's you injected previously would also be dropping off. yes it makes a difference how much you inject. the longer and larger the dosage the longer it will take for it to taper out of the body.. how could it not?

...............................


it would have built up to high levels in the body and take much longer than 14 days to trickle away.

.................

NOT SO. THAT WAHT AN ESTER DOES -- IT DISSIPATES OVER TIME. THAT'S WHY PROP IS A "HARDER HIT" YOU GET IT ALL AT ONCE AND IT LASTS ONLY 48 HOURS.

prop is a harder hit cause it has a much shorter half life..


.................................

in my experience the stuff is in my body a good 4 weeks after last pin..

.................
SO IF YOU DO A GRAM A WEEK FOR 10 WEEKS, THEN STOP, YOU;RE SAYING YOU WILL STILL HAVE SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL T LEVELS IN YOUR BLOOD 28 DAYS AFTER YOUR LAST SHOT WITHOUT ANY PCT? THAT CAN'T BE.

that is correct. the OP even posted his bloods after 2 weeks and has T in his system still left over. his LH is at 0 so that isn't his own body producting it. that is what he was injecting still lingering.
.......................................


i know cause I have bloods as I cycle AAS off and on. now if you do a couple shots then stop that is different, or if you are running a small HRT dose that is difference as well but the OP is not talking about HRT doses. in that case you are 100% correct because with HRT doses they are once a week and they are much smaller amounts so it would trickle away to very low levels much faster, but if we are talking about 500mg a week or more dosage which most everyone does then you are not correct, there will be AMPLE amounts of test in the body leftover after 2 weeks if we are talking about cyp.

as far as when to start PCT we don't disagree on that necessarily. after last injection kickstart and spread out hcg and HMG for about 3 weeks. then start PCT and run it about 5-6 weeks. assuming the cycle was 12-14 weeks that should work well.
..................

I DISAGREE WITH USING HCG FOR 3 WEEKS. THERE'S NO POINT TO IT. IT WON'T KEEP LEVELS UP. IT'S JUST A KICKSTART. THAT WOULD BE LIKE BEING ON A DIVING BOARD AND BOUNCING UP AND DOWN FOR 10 MINUTES THINKING YOU CAN GO HIGHER AND HIGHER. NO. IT'LL ONLY GO SO HIGH.

hcg and HMG help plump the nuts going into PCT. it has cut my recovery times tremendously.. so we will agree to disagree. going into pct will raisin nuts is asking for trouble.
 
Texas Monster said:
This leads me to another question then.....and theory.

As far as trade offs of using shorter esters and longer esters.

When we use short esters we start the PCT 2 days after last inject. Doesnt this mean in the next 4 weeks we are taking clomid that there will be a yoyo effect?

Instead with long esters you start clomid 10-14 days after last pin then you have a transition time where your HPTA will slowly start kicking back in at the rate that the rest of the active test is leaving your system. This way when you have no external test your HPTA should be full functioning and bringing your nat test up.

Wouldnt it be more beneficial to run a longer ester cycle then. Because With the short you are waiting those extra weeks to bring your hpta back from clomid but the esters will drop at a hell of a lot faster rate then long esters.
Click to expand...

Clomid takes weeks to work...IF it works. And levels drop back below baseline after you stop. And it ruins your mood and saps your strength. In other words, it's worthless IMO.
 
What about Torem? I had good success with it last time I used it, just throwing it into the debate...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using EliteFitness
 
INJECTIONS MORE THAN 2 WEEKS OLD ARE INERT AT THAT POINT.

with test cyp ? I would peg it for at 4 weeks to reach peak levels. something like deca or EQ will take a bit longer. dbol or beastdrol takes a week to reach peak levels
.............................................

How can it build up over 4 weeks if it's only active for 2 weeks?





how can that be? if it has an 8 day half life for example and you inject 5K, after 8 days half would be live in the body.. thats still 2500mgs.. then after 16 days 1250.. then after 24 days 625 and so on. plus whatever mg's you injected previously would also be dropping off. yes it makes a difference how much you inject. the longer and larger the dosage the longer it will take for it to taper out of the body.. how could it not?

......................................

The amount would matter up to 2-3 weeks but after that, the liver would have filtered it out.

.

............................

hcg and HMG help plump the nuts going into PCT. it has cut my recovery times tremendously.. so we will agree to disagree. going into pct will raisin nuts is asking for trouble.
....................

That's a separate issue. I'm saying, once they're plumped, they're plumped. More won't do more.


[/QUOTE]


...................
 
Bump to the top. Good thread. Likenthe question about torem. I'm running it at 20mg Ed along side the rest of my pct.

Daa, unleashed, post cycle, hcgenerate, formastanzol, toco-8, mk-2866, cialis for fun sometimes, beta- alinine, fish oil, multi- vit. Umm think that's all.
 
Nelson Montana said:
INJECTIONS MORE THAN 2 WEEKS OLD ARE INERT AT THAT POINT.

with test cyp ? I would peg it for at 4 weeks to reach peak levels. something like deca or EQ will take a bit longer. dbol or beastdrol takes a week to reach peak levels
.............................................

How can it build up over 4 weeks if it's only active for 2 weeks?

as you are injecting the esters drop off slowly but also pick up one after the other. so it builds up in the body, once you stop injecting they taper back down. i still mantain cyp once it reaches peak levels in the body ie: you use for lets say 10 or 12 weeks. it is active for a full month after last injection in small amounts.. enough to still suppress you.. hence again why the OP posted his bloods and his LH and FSH were at 0 but his T levels were 280 after 2 weeks.. according to what you are saying he should have no T left by now since you say its only 'active' 2 weeks.. he still had small to moderatore amounts of test remaining and it will be active for a couple weeks more in small quantities. since cyp has just an 8 day half life image the longer estered compounds like EQ, deca, heck even sustanon (which has a very long ester) would stick around.. we are talking 5-6 weeks easy.



how can that be? if it has an 8 day half life for example and you inject 5K, after 8 days half would be live in the body.. thats still 2500mgs.. then after 16 days 1250.. then after 24 days 625 and so on. plus whatever mg's you injected previously would also be dropping off. yes it makes a difference how much you inject. the longer and larger the dosage the longer it will take for it to taper out of the body.. how could it not?

......................................

The amount would matter up to 2-3 weeks but after that, the liver would have filtered it out.

.
again we go back to the main disagreement of active life.. I say cyp is active for a good 4 weeks, you are saying 2 weeks... blood results the OP posted say you are wrong here... and since a lot of guys take other injectables with longer half lives than cyp i would say for the most part ... my reasoning is simple.. if you run a higher dose it will peak at a much higher amount in the body, yes you are right it would still get filtered the same quickly assuming the person ran the same amount 12 weeks vs. 30 of weeks. however what we disagree on is dosage. someone who runs lets say 2 grams for 12 weeks is gonna take longer for it to clera than someone who takes 150mg for 12 weeks. why? cause in the first case it would build up to peak levels either way and stay there, unless of course they ran it just 3 weeks vs. 12 weeks. then of course it would be out way faster in 3 weeks since it never had a chance to reach peak levels and build up

............................

hcg and HMG help plump the nuts going into PCT. it has cut my recovery times tremendously.. so we will agree to disagree. going into pct will raisin nuts is asking for trouble.
....................

That's a separate issue. I'm saying, once they're plumped, they're plumped. More won't do more.


i agree, thats why i run it as a kickstart to pct. and during cycle i run hcgenerate.
Click to expand...


...................[/quote]

bolded and underlined
 
Just solely speaking from experience, what Steve has said makes perfect sense to me. I'm starting week 4 of PCT after a Test E/Masteron E cycle right now which also happened to be my first injectible cycle. My PCT has went incredible to this point, and almost too good if you know what I mean. My weight has dropped about 3 lbs since the cycle from water and glycogen returning to normal, but everything else has been excellent with my strength actually increasing.

I've ran several oral only cycles before with the identical PCT as I have ran this time, and after about a week my weight is down 4 or 5 lbs typically and my strength goes down at least a little from where it was on cycle. I always accepted that as normal, then I run a longer and more suppressive cycle with a seemingly better recovery? Odd to me...

If some of the test in my system was still there for a good portion of my PCT that could be why I have felt great and had such good performance. If like to think that I killed this PCT like anyone, but at 5 weeks after my last pin as of today, I seem to think I'm not out of the woods yet if you believe what Steve says.
 
muscleaddiction said:
What about Torem? I had good success with it last time I used it, just throwing it into the debate...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using EliteFitness
Click to expand...

It's a site specific estrogen blocker like nolvadex but with less of an effect on lipid levels and bone density. So it'll do what it does but it won't restore HPTA function in any way.
 
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