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Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
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*The Ross Protocols: Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced Cycles!*

Tatyana said:
Has anyone got a link/paper about the differential binding of various exogenous steroids?

just a point on your comments - contrary to what was bro-ology conventional wisdom, androgen receptors do NOT downregulate in the presence of superphysiological levels of exo steroids, they actually UPregulate to accomodate - (I dont have the study links)
 
Ross said:
There are three essential stages of a Proper "Steroid Therapy":

1.) The Steroid Cycle: Anabolic steroids are utilized over the course of many weeks, sometimes many months, as the bodybuilder aquires as much muscle mass as possible, or while dieting to preserve muscle and aid in fatloss.

You mention homeostatic mechanisms, but there is also thought to be a 'set bodyweight' homeostatic mechanism, so putting on as much mass doesn't always work.

If it did, then there would not be so many lads posting, how do I keep my gains.




2.) Active Recovery(Pre-PCT): This is the period of time DIRECTLY AFTER YOUR CYCLE. DO NOT GO STRAIGHT INTO post cycle therapy! This is why you experience a POST-CYCLE CRASH! Utilizing an ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD, will allow the body to BEGIN producing testosterone once again, while still remaining in an ANABOLIC STATE!

PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 20mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 20mgs/200mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 200mgs/200mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 30mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 30mgs/200mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 25mgs/200mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/200mgs


3.) Post Cycle Therapy: Now that your HPTA has began recovering, and you have successfully transitioned out of your steroid cycle, it is now time to FULLY RESTORE THE HPTA. Now is the time for your FULL agressive post cycle therapy regimen, including HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex if desired.

I found this and thought this was interesting:

http://www.hptaxis.com/technology_aih.htm


Hypogonadism is a disturbance of HPTA homeostasis. Hypogonadism is inadequate gonadal function, as manifested by deficiencies in spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone. The definitions of hypogonadism are consistent by using either reproductive capacity, infertility, and/or biochemically by testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels. The confirmation of the state of hypogonadism is exhibited either by reproductive or biochemical parameters.

Laboratory studies are the gateway to a proper diagnosis. The laboratory performing the assay defines the normal reference range for serum sex hormones. Similarly, infertility definitions encompass spermatozoa density, number, and quality. Testosterone is the initial screening laboratory study. Gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), classify disorder. A total testosterone value <300-ng/dL (10.4-nmol/L) suggests hypogonadism while a total testosterone value <200-ng/dL is highly correlative of hypogonadism.

In primary hypogonadism, the defect is either in the testicles, absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone with elevated gonadotropin levels. In secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism), the centers in the brain that control the gonads (hypothalamus and pituitary) do not function properly, resulting in absent or decreased spermatogenesis and/or the secretion of testosterone resulting from a decrease in follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH), respectively.

Hypogonadism is a disease with potentially serious consequences that include but are not limited to adverse body composition changes (decrease muscle mass and increased adiposity), decreased muscle strength, bone loss, increase in cardiovascular risk, adverse psychological effects (depression, low self esteem, guilt, increased stress, and anhedonia), sexual dysfunction (decreased libido, decreased spontaneous erections, decreased ejaculate, erection dysfunction, decreased sexual fantasies, and anorgasmia), decreased cognitive testing, sleep disturbances, infertility, and constitutional symptoms (general fatigue, agitation/motor dyskinesia, and decreased appetite).

Androgen administration or use of GnRH analogues results in a form of induced hypogonadism, functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Androgen, nonsteroidal, administration is currently in the research and investigational stages. These studies indicate that their clinical use will also result in androgen-induced hypogonadism after cessation by their effects on gonadotropin levels.

Androgen induced hypogonadism (AIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids. AIH results from an abnormality in the normal functioning of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA), from a negative feedback inhibition of one of the hormone secreting glands, causing a cascading unbalance in the rest of the axis. To date, all compounds classified as androgens whether prescribed clinically or from illicit use cause a negative feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis, suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, and as a consequence serum testosterone.

Case controlled and observational studies from licit and illicit anabolic/androgen steroid (AAS) administration demonstrate a hypogonadal state after their cessation. AAS, including testosterone, licit and illicit, administration induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. This state is present during their administration but typically becomes symptomatic or manifest after AAS cessation.

For over fifty years, published literature demonstrates hypogonadism occurring after AAS cessation (AIH). AIH occurs in one-hundred percent of individuals upon AAS cessation. There is not a single study within the peer-reviewed literature demonstrating an immediate return of HPTA homeostasis upon AAS cessation. AAS, licit and illicit, induce a state of hypogonadism that continues after their cessation. The only variable is the duration and severity of AIH.

Countless publications study the use of testosterone as a male contraceptive agent. The simplistic reason for this is that exogenous administration will cause HPTA suppression, a decrease of sex hormones that includes endogenous testosterone production and the gonadotropins, both follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and/or luteinizing hormone (LH).

The absence of FSH leads to infertility, contraception, or diminished spermatogenesis. This is an induced state of hypogonadism, infertility. The absent or decreased testicular testosterone production is replaced by its external administration. The individual does not experience the adverse effects of hypogonadism secondary to decreased serum testosterone because of exogenous testosterone administration. This does not take away from the fact that the patient is in a state of induced hypogonadism for the express purpose of contraception.

Birth control studies with testosterone administration in physiological as well as subphysiological doses demonstrate HPTA suppression. Studies conducted by World Health Organization have demonstrated complete recovery of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) after administration of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone for a year. The "complete recovery" referred to is spermatogenesis and not serum testosterone. The median time to recovery to the subject’s own geometric mean baseline sperm concentration is a range of 4.0-13.9 months. Thus, the data from the study affirm that the return of normal spermatogenesis may take over a year.


Male contraception studies with 19-nortestosterone, nandrolone, demonstrate the continued suppression of serum testosterone from control levels for greater than 15 weeks after nandrolone cessation. Other data available from the development of nandrolone decanoate for male contraception indicate that reversal of effects can take more than twelve months after discontinuation of the drugs.

The salient point is that after AAS cessation there is a period of recovery for HPTA normalization of gonadotropins (FSH and LH) and sex hormones (testosterone). This period is of an unknown duration and severity. This period of hypogonadism exposes the individual to the signs and symptoms of hypogonadism, specifically both adverse body composition changes and/or decreased muscle strength. Studies demonstrate the improvements in body composition obtained during AAS administration, are lost after AAS cessation.
 
Mavafanculo said:
just a point on your comments - contrary to what was bro-ology conventional wisdom, androgen receptors do NOT downregulate in the presence of superphysiological levels of exo steroids, they actually UPregulate to accomodate - (I dont have the study links)

They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.
 
That's the issue as with most steroid use.
Who is going to fund a study to allow users to 'abuse" steriods to show androgen upgregulation??? However there is plenty of politics in the USA that will say androgen receptors will downregulate without actually demonstrating the steroid "abuse"

So it's premature to say androgen receptors downregulate without posting a study showing high dose steroid use and also showing the associated downregulation

Anyway most of the information dealing with affinity of drugs to androgen receptors is generally in relation to testosterone

Tatyana said:
They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.
 
Tatyana said:
They do in rats, but rats are not peeps. :)

Not as easy to dose up a bunch of lads and then dissect them.

What I was asking for if anyone has any info on the affinity of various types of steroids for testosterone receptors.

It is all about the pharmocodynamics.

there were a few human studies, but nothing comprehensive

this one apparantly shows AR upregulation short term with var, but didnt test long term
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11.

this one shows doubling of AR receptors over a month but then an eventual return to baseline
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

I remember there were more, but I'd have to dig
 
Unfortunately where is the profit potential in telling people they can juice for extended periods of time and they bodies will actually adjust to it? Especially when the drugs are illegal?

God , I wanna move to the UK...

Mavafanculo said:
there were a few human studies, but nothing comprehensive

this one apparantly shows AR upregulation short term with var, but didnt test long term
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11.

this one shows doubling of AR receptors over a month but then an eventual return to baseline
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

I remember there were more, but I'd have to dig
 
Also once you are completly shut down and you on a drug that is suppressive I dont see how it would help kick start without something LIKE HCG, or clomid or something help kickstart your natty test levels.


I started thinking about this today. If you are using a longer ester tht will clear in about 3-4 weeks roughly and you start this drug that only suppresses then what kcik starts the HPTA? You would ned something else in the pre PCT to kick start right?

While the ester is still clearing you system are you not still anabolic? I dont start losing gains until about 3-4 weeks after last shot. In fact I am still making some gains. Sp while it is still clearing you are still shut down. Taking primo, dbol and the others you suggest will only prolong your recovery possibly and or waste your money becuase it is doing nothing. Alls you are dong is adding more hormones to your body when you are trying to restart the HPTA.

Why not just do a shot or two or three of HCG during your cycle, Right after or a week or so after your last shot and once again when you are starting PCT using Sustain or clomid or whatever protocol works well for you?
 
Pat_McCrotch said:
Also once you are completly shut down and you on a drug that is suppressive I dont see how it would help kick start without something LIKE HCG, or clomid or something help kickstart your natty test levels.


I started thinking about this today. If you are using a longer ester tht will clear in about 3-4 weeks roughly and you start this drug that only suppresses then what kcik starts the HPTA? You would ned something else in the pre PCT to kick start right?

While the ester is still clearing you system are you not still anabolic? I dont start losing gains until about 3-4 weeks after last shot. In fact I am still making some gains. Sp while it is still clearing you are still shut down. Taking primo, dbol and the others you suggest will only prolong your recovery possibly and or waste your money becuase it is doing nothing. Alls you are dong is adding more hormones to your body when you are trying to restart the HPTA.

Why not just do a shot or two or three of HCG during your cycle, Right after or a week or so after your last shot and once again when you are starting PCT using Sustain or clomid or whatever protocol works well for you?

First of all, you are confusing THE "FINISHER" with "Pre-PCT(Active Recovery). Please re-read both articles.

The HPTA begins recovering on it's own(once androgen/estrogen levels have sufficiently declined), but you are correct in assuming that the addition of HCG(or AndroGenerator!) during this Pre-PCT would be highly beneficial. I advise people to use AndroGenerator during PRE-PCT, but if you won't believe me, just start your PCT while on PRE-PCT and continue to run your PCT for an additional 6-10 weeks thereafter.
 
Ross said:
First of all, you are confusing THE "FINISHER" with "Pre-PCT(Active Recovery). Please re-read both articles.

The HPTA begins recovering on it's own, but you are correct in assuming that the addition of HCG(or AndroGenerator!) during this Pre-PCT would be highly beneficial. I advise people to use AndroGenerator during PRE-PCT, but if you won't believe me, just start your PCT while on PRE-PCT and continue to run your PCT for an additional 6-10 weeks thereafter.

You have some interesting ideas about steroids that are generating some interesting and sometimes heated debates.

So thanks for answering my question before about Uni, I now know you went.

My question is, what did you study?

My concern is that all of these recommendations are being made when:

1. You are young and have only been juicing for 4-5 years, so yes you have some experience, but not as much as a lot of the other lads on the board.

2. Do you have any formal qualifications in any of the fields related to human biology or medical studies? Endocrinology?


Experience does count for a lot, however, so does education.

Steroids are some of the most powerful drugs know to humans, and really, when handing out advice, you really are messing with the bit of men that they consider defines them the most, their bollux and their brains.
 
Tatyana said:
You have some interesting ideas about steroids that are generating some interesting and sometimes heated debates.

So thanks for answering my question before about Uni, I now know you went.

My question is, what did you study?

My concern is that all of these recommendations are being made when:

1. You are young and have only been juicing for 4-5 years, so yes you have some experience, but not as much as a lot of the other lads on the board.

2. Do you have any formal qualifications in any of the fields related to human biology or medical studies? Endocrinology?


Experience does count for a lot, however, so does education.

Steroids are some of the most powerful drugs know to humans, and really, when handing out advice, you really are messing with the bit of men that they consider defines them the most, their bollux and their brains.



couldnt have said it better....youre great for this board tat
 
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