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steroid use with minimal hpta suppression

serge

New member
pulled this one of mesorx.com

There has been considerable interest from readers in the brief alternating cycle concept that I have previously discussed. Here, I give an example of an actual program that has been used successfully. The athlete who followed this particular program has completed four such six-week cycles (only two of each six weeks featured substantial steroid use), with a net muscle gain of 25 lb and a net fat loss of 5 lb. The last three of those cycles gave a net muscle gain of 14 lb and a net fat loss of 14 lb. This has been for a consecutive 24 weeks, yet there has been no loss in testicle size, despite the fact that HCG was never used, nor loss of normal functioning by any measure during off weeks (with a single exception.) Thus it seems that LH production remained sufficient to maintain normal testosterone production through four consecutive cycles.

This program has not been exactly as described for all four cycles, but has been modified slightly as time has gone on. This is the most current version. The athlete believes that this version could have been followed from the beginning with equally good or superior results. Differences really are not significant.

This information is not provided as a recommendation for anyone to follow, but for informational purposes of what some current thinking is in this area. We do not advocate illegal use of drugs, but note that many individuals successful in bodybuilding engage in such use, and consider that dissemination of such information is in the interest of an informed public.

Drug selection

Trenbolone acetate (50 mg/day) and Dianabol (10 mg five times per day) were the chosen anabolics for all cycles, except that the last cycle also included 50 mg/day Winstrol Depot. This addition resulted in gains equal to previous cycles despite considerably reduced calorie intake compared to previous cycles. Clomid was used, generally at 100 mg/day when using 50 mg/day total of Dianabol, and 50 mg/day otherwise. Cytadren was used, 250 mg/day (125 mg on arising, and 62.5 mg six and twelve hours later), when Dianabol was used at 50 mg/day total, and only 125 mg/day, on arising, when only 20 mg.day Dianabol was being used. Primobolan Depot, 400 mg, was used at the start of week 5 in those cycles when orals were used in weeks 5 and 6. No other drugs were used.

Drug schedule

Weeks 1 and 2: Clean, but using 50 mg/day Clomid if there was a preceding cycle. Optionally, a low dose of an oral anabolic might be used in the morning: 10 mg Dianabol on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. If this is used, then 125 mg of Cytadren is taken upon arising. 300 mg Androdiol is taken before workouts, but not after 4 PM. (I do not have proof that inhibition of LH production would occur if the Androdiol were taken later, but suspect that that might be the case.)

Weeks 3 and 4: Trenbolone acetate and Dianabol at 50 mg/day, optionally with Winstrol Depot at 50 mg/day. Cytadren at 250 mg/day, and Clomid at 100 mg/day. It is not certain that this much is required: 50 mg might suffice. A double dose of trenbolone acetate was used on the first day of week 3, and none was used on the last day of week 4.

Week 5 and 6: Light use, as described as being optional for weeks 1 and 2, but preceded with 400 mg Primobolan Depot at the start of week 5. For two of the four cycles, there was no such use. In one case (the first cycle), there were no losses, but in the second case (the third cycle) there were. In the second and fourth cycles, light use in weeks 5 and 6 resulted in no losses, and in fact gains in week 5. Therefore it is thought better, at least for this particular lifter, to have the support of the low dose usage during the "off" weeks, or at least during the first two weeks following the two heavy weeks.

Nutrition program

The basic scheme was that for weeks 1 and 2, calories were at 12 calories per lb of lean body mass, using a cyclic ketogenic diet or an isocaloric diet. One gram protein per lb LBM was used. Weeks 3 and 4 usually featured heavy eating, with at least 55 g protein per meal and at least seven meals or protein shakes per day, usually with attendant fat gain. However, for the fourth cycle when Winstrol was used, while protein levels remained high, fat intake was kept very low, so total calories were moderate, and there was no net fat gain. Weeks 5 and 6 are isocaloric at maintenance calories, with about 55 g of protein each meal for week 5, and 35-40 g for week 6.

The only supplements used were Met-Rx, Met-Rx Protein Plus, Substrate Solutions Androdiol, ephedrine, caffeine, and a mixture of flax, borage, and hemp oils. Ephedrine and caffeine were used prior to workouts in all cases, and three times per day during weeks 1 and 2 (the dieting weeks.) In the future, DHEA supplementation at 50 mg/day, might be added, not for anabolic effect, but to compensate for low DHEA levels resulting from steroid use.
 
Serge, with all due respect bro, tren as well as winny have been shown to have an antigonadotropic effect. Testicular atrophy or limp dick can not be used as an indicator. Im a firm believer that the limp dick cause by tren and deca is not so much being shut down as it is a PR response, which has been proven to actually increase sex drive at elevated doses, but once the PR levels get too high it kills sex drive.

Here is one study(among the few), i posted on the fina board to show just how little tren is needed to have an antigonadotropic effect.

Pharmacological and endocrinological studies on anabolic agents.
Neumann F.

When used in connection with animal production the term "anabolic agents" covers a wide range. Ther steroidal male and female sex hormones are included in this list, as are the nonsteroidal
estrogens. For the clinician and for the endocrinologist, anabolics are only @#%$ chemically
related to testosterone and 19-nortestosterone. Estrogens, though possessing anabolic
properties, too, do not belong to this class. This paper will deal with anabolic agents in in the
stricter sense of which mainly trenbolone acetate combined with hexestrol has been recommended
for bull and heifer fattening. To consider possible consumer injury from ingestion of meat from
anabolic agent treated animals, it is necessary to know the pharmacological properties of the
agents, the doses producing certain effects or might produce, and the levels of residues in the
meat. Trenbolone acetate will be compared with the following anabolic agents: methenolone
acetate, methandrostenolone, nandrone, androstanazole, and 19-nortestosterone. The activity
spectrum of trenbolone acetate is similar to that of 19-nortestosterone or those anabolics that
are derived from 19-nortestosterone. The compound has about three times stronger androgenic
effect than testosterone propionate. Its index of dissociation between anabolic/androgenic
activity is 2--3. This index is 3--10 for the other anabolic agents. As regards the virilizing
potency, trenbolone acetate is also on the top of the list. It seems that androgenicity and degree
of virilization run paralle. The antigonadotropic activity (inhibition of ovulation and testicular
growth) of trenbolone acetate exceeds that of testosterone propionate by the factor 3. The
compound is not estrogenic and seemingly not or only weakly progestationally active. In
principle, the androgenic activity (symptoms of virilization) as well as the
antigonadotropic effect (disturbances of the menstrual cycle in women, inhibition of
spermiogenesis in men) of trenbolone acetate might be noted. This risk, however, can be
excluded by mere calculation. In rats, 0.1 mg/kg trenbolone acetate have an
antigonadotropic effect. This corresponds to a daily dose of 5--7 mg in humans. By the
same extrapolation, a daily human dose of 100 mg can be calculated for androgenic activity. Such
factors of conversion are, of course, not precise because rats are much less sensitive to
androgens and anabolics than humans. Thus, testosterone propionate is active only in daily doses
of 10--20 mg. If in humans trenbolone acetate also has three times the activity of testosterone
propionate, effects in man had to be counted with not less than a daily intake of 3--5 mg
trenbolone acetate. The dose which is recommended for livestock fattening is 300 mg. IT can,
therefore, be excluded almost with certainty that the meat would contain such large amounts of
hormone residues.
 
Winny does shut down hpta. I had blood tests before and during use and hpta was shut down hard. This may be more or less for others but significant hpta shut down seems logical with winny.
 
There doesn't appear to be any real science behind this.

I don't think "nut size" is a very scientific way of measuring HPTA suppression. Fina is known to shut everything down as fast as any drug out there so I hvae my doubts.

However, I do believe shorter cycles lessen HPTA impact but this is hardly news.
 
well i dont know how well this cycling theory actually works, but the author claims that with only 2 weeks of significats drug intake your hpta will not shut down much and will bounce back very quickly allowing you to keep most of the gains.
 
macrophage69alpha

i agree with your coment, but once again i did not write an article i just pulled it off meso-rx.com because i thought i was an interesting read. one part of the article talks about gaining 15lb of muscle while loosing 14lb of fat, i dont think that is possible unless extreme conditions are present
 
I think a lot of these articles are written and tested in the gym, but not in the lab. While a 2week cycle of some products may not have a significant effect, look at the study above. It only takes approx 5-7mg of tren to have an antigonadotropic effect.And we take 10 times that much.

I remember reading some of these short cycle theories, but I want to see blodd work showing that they dont shut ya down, not just some guy saying he could still perform in bed and that his balls didnt shrivel up. That is not to say the above outlined plan does not work for adding mass, thats not a grip, but I still think your test is getting shut down.
 
Actually, now that some people in the medical profession are ready to admit that
steroids are effective for anabolism there are some well designed studies coming
out that seem to indicate short cycles can be as effective as longer ones. The
problem though is that these studies weren't really designed to test that theory,
they just happened to use test subjects on long and short cycles and the
data seems to indicate the effectiveness of short cycles.
Why don't the pros use these cycles? They do to the extent that they can. You see they stay on pretty much all the time but from what I've read the drugs they use from month to month can vary tremendously.
 
well my last cycle was 1000mg of suspension/week, 150mg tren/week 50mg dboll/ed i ran it for 4 weeks and i gained 27lb , 14lb was solid muscle.
 
wow winny not shutting your hpta this is funny lol one of the only roids which doesnt is anavar......
 
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