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thecompound
Pro Bodybuilder
What is better for your knees, I hear arguments for both sides, relating to pressure and the knee. ATG looks better but is it really more beneficial than just beyond parallel?
Squats: ATG or just past parallel; whats healthier?
- Thread starter thecompound
- Start date
IMO it's how you slow down when you are about to change direction. That is when you put the most stress on your knee joints.
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thecompound
Pro Bodybuilder
Why would you think ATG looks healthier?
My experience is that people who say they go ATG are barely hitting parallel, and people who think they are going parallel are doing half squats.
I suppose ATG might be healthier because you need to use less weight.
by saying ATG looks better I was describing the look of going all the way (merely cosmetical sweetness) not the joint wellness aspect. Take this with a grain of salt as many people suffer from numerous ROM disabilities and preferences. As many of these aspects are brought on from how you train and muscle development. If we were to take two control subjects and use ATG and JBP techniques per person (same weight), I wonder if there would be any difference in the joints after n-number of squats over time. Need to do more research hah
google scholar here I come
Headholio
New member
For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat.
The abstract doesn't say how they draw this conclusion.
Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat ... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
The abstract doesn't say how they draw this conclusion.
Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat ... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
Headholio
New member
I found this:
Full (Deep) Squat
Kreighbaum (1996) illustrate the safe position of a deep squat with the knees extending beyond the toes. Kreighbaum explains how a deep squat can be performed little chance of injury to the knee. The variables of concern:
During the lower portions of the deep squat the lower back may flex if hip flexibility is inadequate. The risk of injury is increased if the muscles of the lower back are not strong enough to support the flexed spine or the joint structures have not progressively adapted to such a stress. Flexibility exercises can be performed if hip flexibility is insufficient for deep, or full squats. See Full Squat Flexibility.
Squat Analysis
Full (Deep) Squat
Kreighbaum (1996) illustrate the safe position of a deep squat with the knees extending beyond the toes. Kreighbaum explains how a deep squat can be performed little chance of injury to the knee. The variables of concern:
- speed of descent
- size of calves and thighs
- strength of the controlling muscles
- center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
- muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
During the lower portions of the deep squat the lower back may flex if hip flexibility is inadequate. The risk of injury is increased if the muscles of the lower back are not strong enough to support the flexed spine or the joint structures have not progressively adapted to such a stress. Flexibility exercises can be performed if hip flexibility is insufficient for deep, or full squats. See Full Squat Flexibility.
Squat Analysis
Whichever approach you choose, strict form carries the day. I have spent months making video of my squats with a cheap little camera to try to push myself. Keeping the weight on the outside of the foot and heels, using a low box to know I have passed parallel and to be sure I am evenly distributing my weight between my legs. It has all paid off to noticeably fuller legs.
Strongbow
New member
Dude seriously STFU. You dont know jack shit bout squatting anybody tells you ass to grass is not the proper way to squat is a freaking idiot. Hinging the weiht at parrallel puts all the force and weight on your knees. And when i say a2g that means my ass cheeks are mashing my calves
Save all your contrary bullshit for chat. And your old ass ought to be woried bout which denture cream holds better not proper squat form
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Headholio
New member
I didn't give my opinion, I posted a couple of different scientific write ups on the subject that's all.
You want to talk about forces on the knee? Go ahead and draw me up a free body diagram with some force calculations. You think your simple, teeny, tiny little mind has it all figured out huh? Lets see the numbers. I have a degree in biomedical engineering, hillbilly.
The possum eater thinks his opinion carries more weight than a medical journal. You shut the fuck up moron.
Hey guys lets please keep this respectful.
Headholio
New member
I agree. I didn't notice that when Strongbow attacked me as usual, we weren't in C & C. I'm sure he will be back here to apologize.
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Theres no proper way to squat, atg is an illegal move on the platform and most that atg do what I call dbh, or dive bomb hamstrings. What are you trying to achieve when your doing your squat? Cater to the intent of the day, they say Yates never wide gripped any back movement and if that's true why does he still have massive lats.... I squat really wide, force the knees with around an 8 second descent and drop just below parallel. Works for me and I have 2 herniated discs. I atg the hack squat as I have more control but to answer your question people have blown their shit apart doing both so neither are right or wrong
Strongbow
New member
Sorry got no respect for him so no can do bro beans
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i didnt quite understand what that meant,
The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:
center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
so basically you have to have your knees go forward when squatting to save your knees and you cant bounce 'out of the hole' like most oly lifters do?
clarification would be appreciated.
The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:
center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
so basically you have to have your knees go forward when squatting to save your knees and you cant bounce 'out of the hole' like most oly lifters do?
clarification would be appreciated.
Headholio
New member
Good question. Here is what I am getting from that:
First basic knee biomechanics: There are 2 joints in the knee - the tibial-femoral joint (shin bone to thigh bone), and the patello-femoral joint (knee cap to thigh bone). The knee isn't stable in the for to aft direction and the femur slides on the tibia. What keeps it from sliding forward is the knee cap held in place by the patellar tendon and quadraceps tendon. (It is the ACL that keeps it from sliding back).
When you are standing up straight the quadraceps tendon will pull on the patella in a vertical direction and there will be no compressive force on the patello - femoral joint.
As you bend your knee the force has a component in the direction of the tendon and a component perpendicular to it, which is compressive force on the PF joint.
As you squat, the femur is trying to slide forward and the force on the PF joint increases as the angle of squat increases. (The very high compressive force on the PF joint is one downside to consider with ATG squats, although using a lighter weight for deeper squats might partially mitigate that).
SO back to the comment you quoted. If you bounce and your ass hits your calves, that force causes your femur to slide forward more. That force increases the already high force on the PF joint.
So, One lesson is don't bounce.
When they talk about keeping the center of gravity forward, I don' think they are talking about keeping knees forward, I think it means don't transfer weight from your ass to your calves.
If you can't be respectful than it is probably best if you don't post in a thread that he has posted in.
Bouncing in any lift is a bad idea. Whenever changing direction of movement with weights it's always best to do it slowly.
It is common knowledge that stoping a squat prior to or at parallel is poor technique, unfortunately it's not commonly known how bad for your knees it is. And as far as going to ass to ankles that is a personal choice. For those of us with cadaver tissue we shouldn't go to the ankles either.
It is common knowledge that stoping a squat prior to or at parallel is poor technique, unfortunately it's not commonly known how bad for your knees it is. And as far as going to ass to ankles that is a personal choice. For those of us with cadaver tissue we shouldn't go to the ankles either.
