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xabier
New member
Bueno aqui os pongo el experimento que hizo bill roberts hace varios años inevstigando sobre los 2 weekers con uno de sus clientes, bill roberts es un conocido escritor sobre articulos y libros sobre farmacologia aplicada al deporte...aun asi esto fue hace años y el estudio que hizo y el tipo de ciclo corto no es del todo correcto pero al menos podemos ver los resultados de los analisis que vendria a ser lo importante
MY COMMENTS
I think that 4 weekers provide the best gains to sides ratio...this has been my personal experience with myself and my clients. Two weekers, properly done, can produce fairly decent gains if doing many in a row, especially 2 "on" 2 "off".
Note...the very good testosterone level that this fellow in the study showed two weeks after ending the two week cycle has a lot to due with the andriol that he was on at this time.....so with this in mind we cannot draw accurate conclusion in regard to HPTA recovery from this study. We can, however, notice "Jim's" really nice gains in weight and strength during this cycle.....and the guy didn't even do any heavy leg work like squats or leg presses!
My clients routinely KEEP 5-10 pounds after a well thought out two weeker, if they are not yet at their natural maximum level of muscular developement. This can take many men, that have trained for a few years, up to a year to accomplish without steroids.
If you are above natural max the gains will be less but you will still gain.
Keep in mind why short cycles of 6 weeks or less are done...they are NOT done to win titles as a bodybuilder at any level ,but rather to provide for a very safe alternative way to use steroids by limiting time "on" and thus by limiting sides.
If you are wanting to try short cycles then keep in mind that they will only help to get you to your natural max sooner than via training naturally....much sooner in fact....BUT they will not get you huge. You can get somewhat above natural max but don't expect to win titles even at the state level using roids in this way.
NOW FOR THE STUDY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject
Jim is 26 years old and has been training regularly since his teens. I consider him to be an intelligent lifter who has generally followed good training plans and has been reasonably consistent in his training, allowing only a few off weeks every now and then. He probably was fairly close to his natural limit when starting this program – I would not have expected him to be able to gain more than perhaps 3 lb over the next year with natural training. He was in his all-time best condition at the time of starting the program, with his bench press, lean body weight, and bodyfat all at best-ever levels. A year previously, he had done an 8 week cycle with only trenbolone acetate and Primobolan, and had since done two light cycles with only Dianabol. His goals were to reduce bodyfat still further while increasing muscle size and muscularity, and to achieve a "Muscle Media" type of look, suitable for the beach or night clubs, not the competitive stage. Furthermore, because of his job, no drastic sustained gains in bodyweight would be acceptable. Rather, weight gains needed to be fairly moderate but with body composition improvements.
Thus, the 2-on, 4-off cycle was particularly suitable for Jim. A traditional 8 week cycle such as he had done before would either have been rather ineffective for muscle gains were he trying also to lose fat during the cycle, or would have resulted in excessive weight gain and failure to lose fat (a primary goal) if he ate enough to obtain good muscle growth. The alternating plan allows him to make good gains for two weeks, though not to a suspicious degree if he takes care to dress in loose clothing, and then to lose fat over the next four weeks, and then to repeat the plan as many times as necessary. Furthermore, it will allow good retention of gains, which is important to him, since he does not plan to use steroids indefinitely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drug Plan
The following is, verbatim, the drug plan that Jim wrote out before the cycle began, using articles previously presented on Meso-Rx as his guide (though these are actually presented for informational purposes, not as advice.) Thus far, he has followed it exactly, except that he failed to use 10 mg Dianabol five times per day, but instead took only 5 mg five times per day. I expect that this change probably cost him a couple of pounds of gains.
A number of abbreviations were used in his plan. "TA" is trenbolone acetate injectable. "D" or "Diana" is Dianabol. "Clo" is Clomid. "Cyt" is Cytadren. "Oxandr" is oxandrolone. The abbreviation "tid" means three times per day.
Program
Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.
In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.
Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.
Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.
Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.
Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ½ tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.
Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.
Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6.
Supplement use: In weeks 3-6, Androdiol 300 mg one or 1.5 h before workouts – not in the evening. If in the morning or early afternoon, an additional 300 mg after workout would be okay. Ephedrine and caffeine optional while dieting
Bodypart / Parameter Starting During week 3 Improvement
Neck 14 7/8" 15 3/8" 1/2"
Biceps 15 3/8" 16" 5/8"
Chest 40 3/8" 41 ¾" 1 3/8"
Waist 33" 33 ¼" no significant change
Thigh 22 1/8" 23 1/8" 1"
Calves 14 7/8" 15 3/8" ½"
Weight 175 lb 188 lb 13 lb
% Bodyfat 9.5% (n/a) no significant change
Seat Mil Press 165 lb 190 lb 25 lb
Bench Press 260 lb 295 lb 35 lb
The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.
Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.
Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)
Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.
Summary
With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.
Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.
Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.
UPDATE
Jim has succeeded in retaining his strength gains, and even on improving his bench press, and has lost as little weight from his peak as could be expected (5 lb) considering that he lost ¾ inch from his waist in weeks 3 and 4. Overall he is now 8 lb heavier with a waist that is a half inch smaller, which probably represents a loss of about three pounds of bodyfat. I certainly hope that Jim will get a skinfold measurement at the end of week 6 to further quantitate these results.
He suffered no observed side effects except increased acne and a slight increase in irritability during the two "on" weeks, which might also have been caused by increased stress he was under at the time. Even blood pressure, which often rises during a cycle, remained normal at all times.
Here are the results so far:
Bodypart/Parameter Starting Week 2 Week 4
Weight 175 188 183
Waist 33 33 ¼ 32 ½
Bench Press 260 295 305
Military Press 165 190 190
Testosterone 429 50 529
Furthermore, all of his blood cholesterol parameters were improved from the starting values, though perhaps insignificantly, and all liver values were normal (although CPK was not checked this time). That is despite the use of oral 17-alkylated anabolics: 20 mg/day each of Dianabol and oxandrolone. This I think is attributable to the dosing pattern of use only in the morning, a protocol I learned from a certain Greek physician.
I’d hope that his waist will be down to 32" by the end of week 6, and that the next cycle will see him with a bench of 325 or better and military press of over 200 at the 4 week point. By the end of the six week point of the second cycle, he should have a 31 or 31.5" waist with bodyweight of 183-188. So, Jim, the gauntlet has been laid down: go to it!
Week 6 of Jim’s cycle has ended, but although he is very eager to start another cycle and experience some more gains, he needs to take a week or two off. In an effort to cut up, he foolishly played basketball for a couple of hours per day every day for some time during his off weeks, and injured his knees in the process. Besides this, he also came down with the flu in Week 5, and ran out of Adipokinetix. So he wants to delay his pictures and bodyfat measurement for another week so that he can be more cut, and delay the start of the next cycle until his knees are better. This should take about a week.
Since various readers wrote in and proclaimed his legs to be a Federal "disaster area," Jim does not want to go into the cycle unable to do serious leg workouts. Furthermore he is going to get some more reasonable shorts so we can scrutinize improvements in the legs a little more closely.
On a serious note: actually, this bad-luck experience illustrates an advantage of the 2 on / 4 off cycle. All too often, in traditional cycles, an athlete feels he has too much invested in the cycle and has pinned so much hope on it that he cannot let an injury stop him. All too often, he will decide to "train through the pain," and all too often will wind up with a lifetime nagging injury from this decision. It just isn’t too unusual for things to happen in life that mess up our plans. Since one only gains two weeks at a time in this system, it’s much more forgiving of problems such as this. A setback doesn’t "ruin everything" but only introduces a brief delay.
Next cycle, training will be similar to the first, except that weights will be about 10% heavier and shrugs will be added to the program. The drug program will be somewhat different also. Jim is thinking either of contributing to scientific knowledge by continuing to use 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate but substituting 100 mg/day testosterone propionate for the 50 mg/day Dianabol so that a direct comparison may be made; or he may just go for the gains, saying the heck with science, and keep the Dianabol in there while adding the testosterone propionate.
We also will probably have salivary tests tracking the recovery of testosterone production, to see if it is largely back at the end of week 3 and to see if it is even higher in week 5 than in week 4. These things were not tested last time
MY COMMENTS
I think that 4 weekers provide the best gains to sides ratio...this has been my personal experience with myself and my clients. Two weekers, properly done, can produce fairly decent gains if doing many in a row, especially 2 "on" 2 "off".
Note...the very good testosterone level that this fellow in the study showed two weeks after ending the two week cycle has a lot to due with the andriol that he was on at this time.....so with this in mind we cannot draw accurate conclusion in regard to HPTA recovery from this study. We can, however, notice "Jim's" really nice gains in weight and strength during this cycle.....and the guy didn't even do any heavy leg work like squats or leg presses!
My clients routinely KEEP 5-10 pounds after a well thought out two weeker, if they are not yet at their natural maximum level of muscular developement. This can take many men, that have trained for a few years, up to a year to accomplish without steroids.
If you are above natural max the gains will be less but you will still gain.
Keep in mind why short cycles of 6 weeks or less are done...they are NOT done to win titles as a bodybuilder at any level ,but rather to provide for a very safe alternative way to use steroids by limiting time "on" and thus by limiting sides.
If you are wanting to try short cycles then keep in mind that they will only help to get you to your natural max sooner than via training naturally....much sooner in fact....BUT they will not get you huge. You can get somewhat above natural max but don't expect to win titles even at the state level using roids in this way.
NOW FOR THE STUDY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject
Jim is 26 years old and has been training regularly since his teens. I consider him to be an intelligent lifter who has generally followed good training plans and has been reasonably consistent in his training, allowing only a few off weeks every now and then. He probably was fairly close to his natural limit when starting this program – I would not have expected him to be able to gain more than perhaps 3 lb over the next year with natural training. He was in his all-time best condition at the time of starting the program, with his bench press, lean body weight, and bodyfat all at best-ever levels. A year previously, he had done an 8 week cycle with only trenbolone acetate and Primobolan, and had since done two light cycles with only Dianabol. His goals were to reduce bodyfat still further while increasing muscle size and muscularity, and to achieve a "Muscle Media" type of look, suitable for the beach or night clubs, not the competitive stage. Furthermore, because of his job, no drastic sustained gains in bodyweight would be acceptable. Rather, weight gains needed to be fairly moderate but with body composition improvements.
Thus, the 2-on, 4-off cycle was particularly suitable for Jim. A traditional 8 week cycle such as he had done before would either have been rather ineffective for muscle gains were he trying also to lose fat during the cycle, or would have resulted in excessive weight gain and failure to lose fat (a primary goal) if he ate enough to obtain good muscle growth. The alternating plan allows him to make good gains for two weeks, though not to a suspicious degree if he takes care to dress in loose clothing, and then to lose fat over the next four weeks, and then to repeat the plan as many times as necessary. Furthermore, it will allow good retention of gains, which is important to him, since he does not plan to use steroids indefinitely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drug Plan
The following is, verbatim, the drug plan that Jim wrote out before the cycle began, using articles previously presented on Meso-Rx as his guide (though these are actually presented for informational purposes, not as advice.) Thus far, he has followed it exactly, except that he failed to use 10 mg Dianabol five times per day, but instead took only 5 mg five times per day. I expect that this change probably cost him a couple of pounds of gains.
A number of abbreviations were used in his plan. "TA" is trenbolone acetate injectable. "D" or "Diana" is Dianabol. "Clo" is Clomid. "Cyt" is Cytadren. "Oxandr" is oxandrolone. The abbreviation "tid" means three times per day.
Program
Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.
In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.
Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.
Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.
Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.
Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ½ tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.
Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.
Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6.
Supplement use: In weeks 3-6, Androdiol 300 mg one or 1.5 h before workouts – not in the evening. If in the morning or early afternoon, an additional 300 mg after workout would be okay. Ephedrine and caffeine optional while dieting
Bodypart / Parameter Starting During week 3 Improvement
Neck 14 7/8" 15 3/8" 1/2"
Biceps 15 3/8" 16" 5/8"
Chest 40 3/8" 41 ¾" 1 3/8"
Waist 33" 33 ¼" no significant change
Thigh 22 1/8" 23 1/8" 1"
Calves 14 7/8" 15 3/8" ½"
Weight 175 lb 188 lb 13 lb
% Bodyfat 9.5% (n/a) no significant change
Seat Mil Press 165 lb 190 lb 25 lb
Bench Press 260 lb 295 lb 35 lb
The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.
Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.
Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)
Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.
Summary
With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.
Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.
Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.
UPDATE
Jim has succeeded in retaining his strength gains, and even on improving his bench press, and has lost as little weight from his peak as could be expected (5 lb) considering that he lost ¾ inch from his waist in weeks 3 and 4. Overall he is now 8 lb heavier with a waist that is a half inch smaller, which probably represents a loss of about three pounds of bodyfat. I certainly hope that Jim will get a skinfold measurement at the end of week 6 to further quantitate these results.
He suffered no observed side effects except increased acne and a slight increase in irritability during the two "on" weeks, which might also have been caused by increased stress he was under at the time. Even blood pressure, which often rises during a cycle, remained normal at all times.
Here are the results so far:
Bodypart/Parameter Starting Week 2 Week 4
Weight 175 188 183
Waist 33 33 ¼ 32 ½
Bench Press 260 295 305
Military Press 165 190 190
Testosterone 429 50 529
Furthermore, all of his blood cholesterol parameters were improved from the starting values, though perhaps insignificantly, and all liver values were normal (although CPK was not checked this time). That is despite the use of oral 17-alkylated anabolics: 20 mg/day each of Dianabol and oxandrolone. This I think is attributable to the dosing pattern of use only in the morning, a protocol I learned from a certain Greek physician.
I’d hope that his waist will be down to 32" by the end of week 6, and that the next cycle will see him with a bench of 325 or better and military press of over 200 at the 4 week point. By the end of the six week point of the second cycle, he should have a 31 or 31.5" waist with bodyweight of 183-188. So, Jim, the gauntlet has been laid down: go to it!
Week 6 of Jim’s cycle has ended, but although he is very eager to start another cycle and experience some more gains, he needs to take a week or two off. In an effort to cut up, he foolishly played basketball for a couple of hours per day every day for some time during his off weeks, and injured his knees in the process. Besides this, he also came down with the flu in Week 5, and ran out of Adipokinetix. So he wants to delay his pictures and bodyfat measurement for another week so that he can be more cut, and delay the start of the next cycle until his knees are better. This should take about a week.
Since various readers wrote in and proclaimed his legs to be a Federal "disaster area," Jim does not want to go into the cycle unable to do serious leg workouts. Furthermore he is going to get some more reasonable shorts so we can scrutinize improvements in the legs a little more closely.
On a serious note: actually, this bad-luck experience illustrates an advantage of the 2 on / 4 off cycle. All too often, in traditional cycles, an athlete feels he has too much invested in the cycle and has pinned so much hope on it that he cannot let an injury stop him. All too often, he will decide to "train through the pain," and all too often will wind up with a lifetime nagging injury from this decision. It just isn’t too unusual for things to happen in life that mess up our plans. Since one only gains two weeks at a time in this system, it’s much more forgiving of problems such as this. A setback doesn’t "ruin everything" but only introduces a brief delay.
Next cycle, training will be similar to the first, except that weights will be about 10% heavier and shrugs will be added to the program. The drug program will be somewhat different also. Jim is thinking either of contributing to scientific knowledge by continuing to use 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate but substituting 100 mg/day testosterone propionate for the 50 mg/day Dianabol so that a direct comparison may be made; or he may just go for the gains, saying the heck with science, and keep the Dianabol in there while adding the testosterone propionate.
We also will probably have salivary tests tracking the recovery of testosterone production, to see if it is largely back at the end of week 3 and to see if it is even higher in week 5 than in week 4. These things were not tested last time
en cualquier caso hablamos de estar 2 o 3 semanas solo ON , necesitamos pegar fuerte, olvidaros de las dosis que usariais normalmente en ciclos largos, teneis que meter mas de lo que meteriais en un ciclo largo para ver resultados en solo esas dos semanas y no tengais miedo porque en dos semanas aunque metais mas no tendreis los problemas de dosis menores pero en mas tiempo.
