RECOVERY -- WHen Does it REALLY Start?

[*Swifto*]

Of course. But I think the basis of PCT is consistent. What works works for the most part. And my main point for many years now has been twofold. One: Clomid and Nolva are essentially crappy drugs. And two: the main objective is to get the body operating on its own. That's what these supplements were designed to do.

Then again, there are always individual factors -- length, type of drug, propensity for gyno -- and that's when you have to zero in and personalize it a bit more.

They work and have countless studies on them, new and old.

Why do you have HMG in your suggested PCT and not HCG?

 

[Nelson Montana]

They work and have countless studies on them, new and old.

Why do you have HMG in your suggested PCT and not HCG?

THAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH IN BODYBUILDING!!!

There isn't a single study that shows Clomid restores HPTA permanently. It's a temporary fix. You'll still be suppressed once you come off.

In most cases where it shows an increase it's over a period of time that isn;t much different than recovery from natural means.

Clomid increases FERTILITY. It also reduces estrogen IN CERTAIN CASES. That's it. The tradeoff is a ton of negative side effects.

 

[*Swifto*]

THAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH IN BODYBUILDING!!!

There isn't a single study that shows Clomid restores HPTA permanently. It's a temporary fix. You'll still be suppressed once you come off.

In most cases where it shows an increase it's over a period of time that isn;t much different than recovery from natural means.

Clomid increases FERTILITY. It also reduces estrogen IN CERTAIN CASES. That's it. The tradeoff is a ton of negative side effects.

SERMs restore the HPTA post cycle. Its a fact.

Clomid:

"The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.

No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews."


Here: Female Fertility Drug May Combat Age-Related Male Testosterone Deficiency - New York Presbyterian Hospital

Another showing a 268% increase in total T and 1,410% increase in free T.

After looking into it, I'm amazed at what long term studies of clomiphene administration have shown. Isolated clomid administration is capable of much more than I ever imagined. Take for instance this study in which five healthy young adult men aged 26 to 33 were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks. The whole study focused on how the older men were relatively non-responsive compared to the younger men, yet the data on the young healthy men is incredible in and of itself. I'm surprised the researchers didn't even raise an eyebrow at this.

By week 8 of CC administration, the total testosterone level (Fig 2A) achieved in the young adult group was 48.2± 1.4 nmol/L (a 268% increase above baseline level). The young adult men reached a maximal nSHBG-T level (free testosterone level) (Fig 2B) of 20.6 ± 3.2 nmol/L (a 1,410% increase) after 8 weeks of CC administration. The increase in free testosterone is huge. And the beauty of it is that this is all endogenous production, due to increases in LH and FSH, which were also measured and graphed in the full study.

Full study: The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men -- Tenover and Bremner 12 (4): 258 -- Journal of Andrology



Tamox and Tore:

In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen came out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

 

[*Swifto*]

THAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH IN BODYBUILDING!!!

There isn't a single study that shows Clomid restores HPTA permanently. It's a temporary fix. You'll still be suppressed once you come off.

In most cases where it shows an increase it's over a period of time that isn;t much different than recovery from natural means.

Clomid increases FERTILITY. It also reduces estrogen IN CERTAIN CASES. That's it. The tradeoff is a ton of negative side effects.

Here's another for you on Tamoxifen.

- When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

Here's the thread:

http://forums./showthread.php?t=414904&highlight=toremifene

 

[*Swifto*]

THAT'S THE BIGGEST MYTH IN BODYBUILDING!!!

There isn't a single study that shows Clomid restores HPTA permanently. It's a temporary fix. You'll still be suppressed once you come off.

In most cases where it shows an increase it's over a period of time that isn;t much different than recovery from natural means.

Clomid increases FERTILITY. It also reduces estrogen IN CERTAIN CASES. That's it. The tradeoff is a ton of negative side effects.

Your right about Clomid increasing fertility. But in larger doses it will reduce sperm count.

 

[needtogetaas]

I'll be sure to come back to this thread later. Looks like it can be a good thread.

 

[needtogetaas]

1. Nolva/clomid both raise shbg.
This is something I do not see a lot of people disusing so I I wanted to make it well know. Just do a web search on TAMOXIFEN,clomid or nolva raises shbg or any variation and you will get all the studies and prof you need.
Trait Anxiety and Tamoxifen Effects on Bone Mineral Density and Sex Hormone- Binding Globulin -- Cameron et al. 64 (4): 612 -- Psychosomatic Medicine
iHOP - Information Hyperlinked over Proteins [ SHBG ]
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin in Clinical Perspective; Acta Obstetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica - 66(3)ages 255-262 - Informa Healthcare
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

2. Nolva lowers Igf-1 Again just a simple search on (TAMOXIFEN or nolva lowers IGF 1 and walla you got all the prof you need.

In This Issue -- 82 (21): 1661 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/1882.pdf
Effect of low dose tamoxifen on the insulin-like growth factor system in healthy women
Comparison of Tamoxifen and Testosterone Propionate in Male Rats: Differential Prevention of Orchidectomy Effects on Sex Organs, Bone Mass, Growth, and the Growth Hormone-IGF-I Axis -- Fitts et al. 25 (4): 523 -- Journal of Andrology


3. Nolva or clomid do not lower estrogen!!!!!!!! And when you come off of its not uncommon to have a estrogen rebound.

4. They can cause Major triglyceride and glucose problems and even to the point of Severe hypertriglyceridemia or also Pancreatitis

Severe hypertriglyceridemia caused by tamoxifen-tr... [Endocr J. 1997] - PubMed result
Tamoxifen-induced hypertriglyceridemia in association with diabetes mellitus - EM|consulte
SpringerLink - Journal Article
Capecitabine-Induced Severe Hypertriglyceridemia: Report of Two Cases -- Kurt et al. 40 (2): 328 -- The Annals of Pharmacotherapy
Elsevier: Article Locator
Estrogen and Triglycerides
http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/11/8/1067.pdf
WikiGenes - Hypertriglyceridemia

So Yes I have heard it all before that clomid and nolva work to help recover HPTA. That is great and I am not arguing that fact. However This still does not negate these 4 simple facts ^^^^ and for the people who love to scream test results,test results test results. Well here Here ya go ^^^ test results, enjoy the . So Even people who love using nolva and clomid for pct should be able to agree that there is room for improvement.

 

[needtogetaas]

1. Nolva/clomid both raise shbg.
This is something I do not see a lot of people disusing so I I wanted to make it well know. Just do a web search on TAMOXIFEN,clomid or nolva raises shbg or any variation and you will get all the studies and prof you need.
Trait Anxiety and Tamoxifen Effects on Bone Mineral Density and Sex Hormone- Binding Globulin -- Cameron et al. 64 (4): 612 -- Psychosomatic Medicine
iHOP - Information Hyperlinked over Proteins [ SHBG ]
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin in Clinical Perspective; Acta Obstetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica - 66(3)ages 255-262 - Informa Healthcare
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

2. Nolva lowers Igf-1 Again just a simple search on (TAMOXIFEN or nolva lowers IGF 1 and walla you got all the prof you need.

In This Issue -- 82 (21): 1661 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/1882.pdf
Effect of low dose tamoxifen on the insulin-like growth factor system in healthy women
Comparison of Tamoxifen and Testosterone Propionate in Male Rats: Differential Prevention of Orchidectomy Effects on Sex Organs, Bone Mass, Growth, and the Growth Hormone-IGF-I Axis -- Fitts et al. 25 (4): 523 -- Journal of Andrology


3. Nolva or clomid do not lower estrogen!!!!!!!! And when you come off of its not uncommon to have a estrogen rebound.

4. They can cause Major triglyceride and glucose problems and even to the point of Severe hypertriglyceridemia or also Pancreatitis

Severe hypertriglyceridemia caused by tamoxifen-tr... [Endocr J. 1997] - PubMed result
Tamoxifen-induced hypertriglyceridemia in association with diabetes mellitus - EM|consulte
SpringerLink - Journal Article
Capecitabine-Induced Severe Hypertriglyceridemia: Report of Two Cases -- Kurt et al. 40 (2): 328 -- The Annals of Pharmacotherapy
Elsevier: Article Locator
Estrogen and Triglycerides
http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/11/8/1067.pdf
WikiGenes - Hypertriglyceridemia

So Yes I have heard it all before that clomid and nolva work to help recover HPTA. That is great and I am not arguing that fact. However This still does not negate these 4 simple facts ^^^^ and for the people who love to scream test results,test results test results. Well here Here ya go ^^^ test results, enjoy the . So Even people who love using nolva and clomid for pct should be able to agree that there is room for improvement.

 

[Nelson Montana]

SERMs restore the HPTA post cycle. Its a fact.

Clomid:

"The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.

No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews."


Here: Female Fertility Drug May Combat Age-Related Male Testosterone Deficiency - New York Presbyterian Hospital

Another showing a 268% increase in total T and 1,410% increase in free T.

After looking into it, I'm amazed at what long term studies of clomiphene administration have shown. Isolated clomid administration is capable of much more than I ever imagined. Take for instance this study in which five healthy young adult men aged 26 to 33 were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate twice a day for 8 weeks. The whole study focused on how the older men were relatively non-responsive compared to the younger men, yet the data on the young healthy men is incredible in and of itself. I'm surprised the researchers didn't even raise an eyebrow at this.

By week 8 of CC administration, the total testosterone level (Fig 2A) achieved in the young adult group was 48.2± 1.4 nmol/L (a 268% increase above baseline level). The young adult men reached a maximal nSHBG-T level (free testosterone level) (Fig 2B) of 20.6 ± 3.2 nmol/L (a 1,410% increase) after 8 weeks of CC administration. The increase in free testosterone is huge. And the beauty of it is that this is all endogenous production, due to increases in LH and FSH, which were also measured and graphed in the full study.

Full study: The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men -- Tenover and Bremner 12 (4): 258 -- Journal of Andrology



Tamox and Tore:

In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen came out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

Here we go again. This is getting boring. Did you actually read the study? Please do. EVERY study on Clomid has the same flaw. It treated HYPOGONADAL men OVER THE COURSE OF MONTHS!!! Guess what? If you're suppressed and you do NOTHING, your T level will be higher after 6 months. THAT's A FACT.

And who uses Clomid for PCT for a year?

And as for nobody experiencing side effects, I'm calling bullshit. I'd half the people who've used Clomid, right here on this board, have experienced the bad sides.

And NO WHERE does it say what T levels were after continued use.

Conclusion: This, like every other study I've seen, proves that Clomid does nothing

 

[*Swifto*]

Here we go again. This is getting boring. Did you actually read the study? Please do. EVERY study on Clomid has the same flaw. It treated HYPOGONADAL men OVER THE COURSE OF MONTHS!!! Guess what? If you're suppressed and you do NOTHING, your T level will be higher after 6 months. THAT's A FACT.

And who uses Clomid for PCT for a year?

And as for nobody experiencing side effects, I'm calling bullshit. I'd half the people who've used Clomid, right here on this board, have experienced the bad sides.

And NO WHERE does it say what T levels were after continued use.

Conclusion: This, like every other study I've seen, proves that Clomid does nothing

How do you explain this Nelson?

- When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

In 10 days LH rose by 142%. Thats not "months" or "years" as you put it.

The studies on SERMs treating hypogondal males dont keep studying them past recovery, why would they? Thats a radiculas argument.

Where is your proof that after cessation of use the user will go hypogondal again. Thats a bold statement. Do you know how SERMs work?