Rather dense AAS question. Please don't flame me.

[SteelWeaver]

I've read a number of the AAS threads around here, mostly out of idle curiosity, and I'm wondering: do you ever get to keep your gains once you come off cycle? And if you don't, doesn't that mean that once you do one cycle, you're basically bound to keep cycling forever if you want to maintain or increase those gains?

And if you do decide to come off, do you lose your gains but not the sides?

 

[fitmedic]

Everything you said...yes. Well, at least for me anyway.

 

[SteelWeaver]

So ..... when people consider using AAS, besides asking themselves whether they want to deal with the sides, they should REALLY be asking themselves whether they want to continue cycling for however long they intend to be ... competing? training?

That's quite a long-term proposition. Are there any benefits at all to just doing one cycle?

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

First, I do not think this is a dense question rather a good one.

Steel -- I kept my gains from my primo/winny cycle; the only thing that seemed to fade a bit (for lack of a better word) was the hardness and fullness that I got. Primarily the fullness was bloat from the winny (in 2 weeks I lost about 8 pounds of water after the last winny shot).

Overall I gained 16 pounds -- 8 of which were obviously water. My diet was somewhat calorie restricted -- was not a precontest diet -- but neither a mass eating cycle. I got stronger, leaner and more muscular. I am now 10 weeks off -- and have kept it all -- with now the exception of holiday fattening foods which have caused alittle bit of water retention (!!), I have maintained the gains.

From what I have read over and over, those who do cycles too soon --- ie not allowing their bodies to build naturally to its genetic potential and rush into a cycle, lose alot of their gains. And some aas are more prone to NON-keepable gains over others.

 

[VooDoo Lady]

I've never lost anything or had a major side stick around. Course, I haven't done much either, and most of what I HAVE tried was in a failed effort to repair my shoulder.

What do you consider to be a "major side?"

 

[fitmedic]

sides

Benefits, hummm? Well, yes I think so. If beach festival weather is coming up or something where you just need to look "peak" for whatever reason.

I did winni only for 8 or 10 weeks- I can't remember. A few months afterwards I still had the gains, but they slowly went away. I have none now. No matter how intensely I trained or how heavy I lifted-it went away. I did LOVE the look though. WOW! Big, ripped, vascular but not grossly unfeminine at all. Just a really nice, fit look. People were asking too many questions so I knew it was working. I can see how it could be a very addictive habit. Sides...well let's see...scratchy voice towards the end then sounded like I had a cold all the time. That has -for the most part-cleared up. Lots of acne on my back, gone now. Hair loss, but I had it to lose and it stopped when the cycle ended. No period for 6 months. Of course I consider that a perk!! That's about it I think.
They say (whoever they is, I don't know) that diet had a lot to do with retaining gains but I ate so clean and I don't have any gains remaining. But then maybe I kept the gains longer than if I ate crap.

I have nan prop right now but will use it when I start dieting down probably in about 3 months. Just to try to keep as much muscle as possible.

Anyway, good luck

 

[SteelWeaver]

Oh, I'm certainly not considering a cycle at all. No no. Not for 5 ... 10 years, if ever. But naturally I AM interested, considering the sport/hobby I'm in. I was asking because I've got the impression from several of the threads I've read that it becomes a bit of a vicious cycle - once you start, you can't stop, because you lose the gains, or need to maintain the gains, or can't increase the gains without bigger doses.

I'm also wondering if the risks are worth the benefits. I mean, if one is a national level competitor, well, I guess you simply don't have any choice, otherwise you'll never get to BE a Nat level competitor, and then you're taking a calculated risk. Or if being lean and hard 24/7/365 is part of your job - like as a fitness model or whatever. But at what point do the risks outweigh the benefits? If you look absolutely killer at the beach but have to shave your face every morning before HITTING the beach, is it worth it?

Sometimes on days when I feel REALLY strong at the gym, when I feel like I can move ANY amount of weight for hours, then I wonder what it must feel like on gear. But the thought of being trapped into cycling forever really scares me.

I read something recently on another board about genetic potential - the guy wrote something like this - how do you know when you've reached your genetic potential? when gains stop for 1 month? 2 months? a year? how can you be sure you've explored EVERY SINGLE option for restarting gains before using gear?

He thought it was an arrogant thing to say - that one had reached one's genetic potential. I mean, if you think about it ... it's quite a thing to SAY. btw - he was saying this as an argument FOR using gear earlier, rather than later (not straight away, but a few years into training). But he made some good points.

Anyway, I don't want to step on any toes here. I'm just very interested.

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

I did not consider for a second that you were stepping on toes -- more like you had a healthy curiousity.

You did say something that struck a cord with me -- not in a bad way. Regarding being in the gym and feeling like you could move any amount of weight all day...while I cannot say that I have done many cycles .... I did not have the "WOW muscle pumps" or "Killer strength increases" that some people experience.

Wherein lies what I wanted to say to you -- if you have the good fortune of having excellent self motivation and self-visualization (which in reading your threads for a while you seem to have it all!), then you may never need aas at all.

If you are a competitor at any level thus far, you have drive, determination and a body that will get you where you need to go -- and since you have been natural thus far and have been experiencing success -- I am thinking you may never need to do a cycle.

There are alot of people out there who do not have that mental drive and determination to get themselves "stoked" at the gym. While I try hard and workout harder and maintain a clean diet for most days of most months, I do not have that spirit that separates the spectators from the warriors....

In other words, the thought, spirit and detemination you projected in your post -- is your AAS so to speak....it has already taken you to the next level. I hope one of these days, I get me somma that!

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Heh-heh-heh, you sound like me before I did my first cycle...

As far as gains, it's mostly 2 steps forward, 1 step back (in my experience); lately I've been running more powerful anti-estrogens, so gains are more true... I don't know how (or if) this relates to females though (although I have heard of females cutting off of anti-estrogens like liquidex, but board discussion weighed towards it being unsafe).

Although you don't typically retain all the mass, a good portion can be retained, and if nothing else, body composition shifts favorably.

Also, it has been shown that (long-term use of) AS (i.e. reoccuring cycles) activate (dormant) satellite cells to turn into muscle (the tissue of which is permanent).

In general, I think that more anabolic compounds (vs. androgenic) are going to produce less fluctuation in terms of gain/loss (i.e. you'll blow up on androgenic compounds, but will "lose" water weight after the cycle, giving the impression that you're losing gains).

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks everyone for your comments. And thanks for the compliments newgirl

I'm pretty much 100% certain I won't be doing any cycles for a good loooong while, but you never know when the knowledge will come in handy.

At the moment, I can't wait to get to the gym to train, I get a huge thrill out of training, and such fantastic pumps, I can't imagine it could be any better. Damn it feels so good.

I'm not in a hurry. I have my whole life

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

Yep you have plenty of time and may never opt to do it. Education and knowledge are power and you are willing to open up your mind and take it all in...another kudos for you.

Your are welcome for the compliments however, it is more an acknowledgement and meant in all sincerity. However your quote above about being psyched to get back to the gym only reconfirms what I said in my post --

You are highly self motivated and self disciplined....you need nothing to help you since your genetics and hard work come shining through.

 

[MS]

If you use AAS to move beyond your true genetic potential then I would say that, by definition, you cannot keep those gains long term. However the majority of people I have seen use AAS merely to get to their genetic potential more quickly. If these folks keep their diet/training in order then they have some chance of maintaining their gains. However women will always struggle with their fat distribution reverting back to typical female when they come off a cycle. I gather this is why so many fitness models stay on cycles almost year round.....helps keep those thighs and butt lean.

As far as measuring true LBM gains, I recommend a 3 day no-carb, low sodium diet at the beginning and end of your cycle. This is a practical way to find out what your nett gains are minus any fluid retention/muscle hydration induced by the AAS. If you don't take this extra fluid into account, then you may feel like you lose a lot of your gains even though it was only water.

 

[Realgains]

I've read a number of the AAS threads around here, mostly out of idle curiosity, and I'm wondering: do you ever get to keep your gains once you come off cycle? And if you don't, doesn't that mean that once you do one cycle, you're basically bound to keep cycling forever if you want to maintain or increase those gains?

And if you do decide to come off, do you lose your gains but not the sides?

You can keep your gains but only up to your natural maximum weight/size and this is only if you continue to train

Most people have not reached their natural maximum weight/size so steroids will help you reach that point quickly. Some will take larger doses and go beyond this level but once they stop they will slowly return to the weight/size that can be maintained by the body without steroid supplementation.
Steroids do increase the actual number of muscle cells to a small degree, as well as cause hypertrophy, but it is unclear if the activatation of these so called "satelite cells" causes a permanent increase in muscle cells. Most of the evidence suggests that thses satelite cells return to their pre steroid state.


As far as sides are concerned some sides will remain but some will not. The sides such as oily skin, zits will go away other sides like facial hair growth, clit enlargement and a dropped voice tone will deminish in time but will never return to their pre-steroid state. Thats why it is very important to be aware of these sides when formulating your goals.

If you plan on being competitive at any higher level then you are going to have to settle for a voice change, clit growth and some extra facial hair, especially upper lip. If your goal is to stay recreational then it is best to use very low doses of mildly androgenic gear like anavar at 5-10 mg per day...or don't use steroids at all.

Ever hear Lenda talk? If that bothers you then you better be careful.

RG

 

[SteelWeaver]

IS there actually a way to know what your natural maximum size is? Are there any general parameters for guessing what it is? Can one somehow know once they REACH this size, that this is it, and not that they just need to try a different approach? Is there a maximum juiced size, too? Or are Olympia competitors just going to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger?

Speaking of Olympia competitors, is there even the slightest, tiniest possibility that someone could make it to the Olympia stage unjuiced? This is just not possible, is it?

And on the topic of recreational use - newgirl, does gear somehow help with motivation and drive? I mean, I know W6 has posted in the past that it definitely does, but would that be a reason for some people to use it?

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

And on the topic of recreational use - newgirl, does gear somehow help with motivation and drive? I mean, I know W6 has posted in the past that it definitely does, but would that be a reason for some people to use it?

I typed what I thought was an appropriate answer but it seemed like an incredible example of how to pontificate!

Steel that is a really hard question. I do not have the drive and motivation of a true athlete and competitor such as yourself. But I have for the past 3.5 years, been motivated enough on my own to totally change my sedentary lifestyle and lift and do cardio and to change my diet drastically. I am not motivated by competing nor being the best. I like the mental and phsyical and visual changes it has brought to me.

I have never fallen off the training wagon.....I have my diet dilemmas but by and large, I am discplined to maintian the lifestyle. I was less than pleased with the plateau in regards to strength and muscle gains.

At 42, I decided I would try a cycle and continue to work my butt off to get stronger and a better body for me...not for a trophy, not for my husband. Yes I was able to eat more cleanly without the mental feeling of deprivation...but no the motivation was not a product of my cycle, directly I suppose.

I am however motivated to do another one becuase I liked the changes I saw and felt.

 

[Realgains]

SteelWeaver going to the Olympia without steroids is like trying to win Miss Universe without make up. The women are getting bigger and bigger because the barriers are coming down in regard to large dose steroid use. Now we are seeing very large doses in the female ranks. 200 of test with 200 of nandrolone per week plus GH is a standard MINIMUM dose for the pro's and that is a hell of a lot of gear for a female. Nobody has a chance without gear now.

RG

 

[THeMaCHinE]

RG -- good posts; especially interesting about the satellite cells. I was under the impression that once they changed, it was permanent.

 

[SteelWeaver]

SteelWeaver going to the Olympia without steroids is like trying to win Miss Universe without make up.

lol. I thought so. So anyone who says an Olympia competitor is natural is lying through their teeth, right? Or seriously naive ...

OK, I know I should do a search on this, but if you wouldn't mind helping with the numbers - how many times MORE than 35-70mg anavar/week is 200mg test or nandrolone? Test and ox aren't directly comparable just by the numbers, correct?

newgirl - er ... I'm not sure about true athlete and competitor ... I'm just determined to be the absolutely best at bodybuilding that I can be (within whatever limits re: food, gear, etc that I place on myself) .... And training and competing thrills me like nothing else ever has.

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

Steel exactly my point...here is what you wrote:

I'm just determined to be the absolutely best at bodybuilding that I can be (within whatever limits re: food, gear, etc that I place on myself) .... And training and competing thrills me like nothing else ever has.


Now -- THAT my dear is a wonderful competitive spirit. That is an athlete capable of excelling.....these are the words of a true WINNER. I cannot share that space with you....I am not that person ... I dabble! I pass the time. You are so incredibly driven it is absolutely inspirational and so incredibly charmisatic.

To me, your words reveal more about you than you know. What is your "day" job....I am most curious now.

 

[MS]

These days you would struggle to find many truly natty females even at tested "natural' shows. The chances of the Olympia without lots of drugs HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I would think the 400mg of AAS (plus hGH) that Realgains mentioned would be the absolute minimum that most Olympia competitors would be using. I don't think it would matter much which AAS you chose.....at 400mg + per week you're gonna grow and have some sides. 400mg + of Anavar per week would prolly destroy your liver before it turned you into a winning Ms Olympia though. Thus most folks that use higher doses og AAS go for the cheaper and less liver toxic stuff such as test and nandrolone.

 

[SteelWeaver]

"These days you would struggle to find many truly natty females even at tested "natural' shows. "

Oh.

So MS - aside from sides, liver damage etc., 400mg ox = 400mg test+nandrolone? I mean in terms of the amount of actual ..... er .... active/usable/non-convertible androgens(?) that are left. Sorry - I'm not sure what the correct terminology is for how hormones are used by the body.

 

[MS]

I don't know anyone who has ever taken that much ox for an extended period, but theoretically speaking I think oxandrolone is prolly more anabolic than testosterone on a mg/mg basis. In the real world we will possibly never know. There is plenty of evidence that at least some of the benefits from AAS also comes from the androgenic activity. Harder to measure stuff such as motivation, drive, aggression, competitiveness etc.... may be higher with a drug such as test compared to ox. But from a purely anabolic point of view, oxandrolone is pretty good!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Interesting. Thanks MS. BTW, what's the equivalent word for bioavailability when talking about androgens?

 

[MS]

"what's the equivalent word for bioavailability when talking about androgens?"

Strictly speaking, bioavailability merely refers to the amount of a dose absorbed and available by the body. When talking AAS (Anabolic Androgenic Steroids), it is sometimes more meaningful to talk about it's androgenic potential versus it's anabolic potential. There are also estrogenic potentials with many of the aromatizable drugs such as testosterone. In this respect, I would think that you would get 'better' true anabolic gains from 10mg per day of oxandrolone compared to 10mg per day of testosterone, but you'll also get more of a boost in terms of drive, libido, (acne!), etc... with test. In other words, if you take 10mg of ox per day and just sit on your butt and eat potato chips 24/7 you won't get great results. If you take 10mg per day of test and do the same, there is a possiblity that you might actually feel a little more motivated to get off your butt and do something with your life. But that's all speculative, and there's plenty of slobby men out there watching football and drinking beer to prove it takes more than just extra test to make you want to change your body. So I'd say that if you can stay motivated, ox is a better bet. Remember IT'S NOT THE DRUGS THAT MAKE THE CHAMPION. It's years of hard work, determination, knowledge, good luck, good genetics.

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

Okay -- Steelweaver....MS said it soo much better than I ever could in her last 2 sentences.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you for the explanation, and indeed, MS, on the last part there, you are right as usual. And I am VERY aware of that. As I said before, I am not now, nor will be for quite some time to come, if ever, considering using AAS. I'm simply interested in learning about them, considering the large role they play in competitive bb'ing. I don't know where my drive is going to take me. All I know is that my motivation hasn't wavered in all the time I've been doing this - if anything, it's grown, and that every day of continuing this lifestyle makes me very, very happy. It seems rational to be prepared with adequate knowledge about ALL aspects of competitive bb'ing for if/when the issue of use/not use ever comes up. Assuming I'm lucky enough to have one or two good genes, and unless something radical changes in the various federations, it's fairly certain I WILL be faced with this question at some point.

Right now I have no clue how I would answer that question. But I know I would have to have attained a commendably high level of competitive status before even thinking about it.