Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Anyone have any info on the differences between whey, soy and egg protein and any other proteins out there. I was looking at a particular protein site where you can mix and match and make your own but I have no clue what does what and why you would want anything other then whey protein. Any help is appreciated.
Protein question
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CaptainBSU91
New member
Whey protien is solid, and most costly effective... Soy just sucks in my opinon, egg protien coming from actual eggs is a staple -- never tried the power. Yet, the best and most exspensive is Casein (sp?) -- havn't got to try this yet either, this college b.s. is just too much of a hamper on the diet LoL. **Goes to cook Ramen Noodles or Tuna seeing that is all I can afford**
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Stryc-9
New member
Here's a discussion I saw once on Berardi's site...a long read but it covers the basics and then some.
---------------------------------------
JB: John Berardi
CW: Cy Willson
LL: Lonnie Lowery
Protein, Protein Everywhere, But What Kind Should I Drink?
CW: Moving right along to protein types, from what I've seen, it would be safe to say that in terms of overall muscle tissue increases and decreases of body fat, casein reigns superior. It's been shown to accomplish these feats by increasing anabolism to a moderate extent, but even more importantly, decreasing catabolism to a large degree. I'm convinced that the sole reason behind this is simply because of its slow digestion and consequently, absorption rates. It provides a steady, slower paced release of amino acids into the blood stream. Casein is therefore the best protein to use before an overnight fast and for breakfast.
Whey, while having a higher BV (Biological Value), has been outperformed by casein simply because of its fast rate of digestion and absorption. It increases anabolism quickly and to a large extent, but these effects are short lived. In fact, it was shown that although amino acid concentrations increased with whey, oxidation rates also increased, creating a steady state metabolism in which there was no change in overall protein balance. It's possible, however, that whey could match casein if you were to combine it with some type of low GI carb and a little fat and continually ingest it every two hours. But, that's a big pain in the ass, as well as the wallet!
That being said, my idea of the perfect type of protein would be a combo of casein and whey. This is because of the fact that whey, while having a greater anabolic response and better BV, lacks the steady absorption rate of casein. Combine the two and pow! you've got one hell of a team! What one lacks, the other compliments.
Soy, on the other hand, is for women. Or maybe for men that want to take on the characteristics of women. Soy may have some health benefits, at least for chicks, but for men it could wreak havoc with your endocrine system, increase body fat, cause water retention, and lower Testosterone. For me, that isn't worth lowering your LDL by a few points. I don't like soy, as you may have noticed, and I don't think it has any place in a man's diet at all!
JB: But come on, Cy, what about getting in touch with our feminine sides? Actually, although the data is still mixed, whenever I've added any significant amount of soy to my diet (> 15 g/d), I've felt like crap. I've gained fat easier and definitely held more water. So now, whenever I see soy powder, I run with fear!
As far as the other protein sources, I'm sorry, Cy, but I'm not ready to dump my beef and salmon for multiple daily servings cottage cheese just yet. Yuck! Although casein seems to be winning a few battles, it certainly hasn't won the war. In fact, I just read a study that showed that three months of whey supplementation increased anaerobic muscular performance while casein didn't do squat. I tend to agree with you that casein seems superior for body composition in the few studies that have been done, especially one in which normal diets were supplemented with whey or casein, but remember, the supplement was added to a normal diet. And by "normal," I mean varied.
So adding casein in to your nutritional program seemingly would help pack on some mass. I also think, though, that adding some whey to a normal diet would be beneficial. When it comes to supplementing, this isn't a one or the other question! And notice I say supplement. That is because I think that the mainstay of the diet should be good, old fashioned food that actually requires chewing! This whole business of consuming nothing but powders all day makes me want to yak. Not only is in boring as hell, but you miss out on a whole variety of nutrients. Bring on the dead animals!
LL: You go, John! Variety is key, both for staying on a diet (without sweating every time you pass a cheeseburger) and for getting the necessary spectrum of nutrients that no protein powder or MRP can provide (at least in correct proportions). Humans evolved to eat animal flesh, not reconstituted powders. I think that meat, egg, casein, whey, and soy are all valuable in their own way.
I'm not sure that I agree soy will turn a guy into a chick. The isoflavones in soy isolates can bind estrogen receptors, inducing a much weaker (even anti-estrogenic) effect than if natural estradiol latched on. (Yes, even T-mag readers have some circulating estrogen!) Isoflavones seem to affect beta estrogen receptors (in bone, for example), not alpha estrogen receptors. If they do cause water retention and fat accumulation in men, I need to see this data before it's too late! However, I feel compelled to say that I eat soy and I'm a muscular, hairy, balding, lean, grainy-skinned man, baby! Whoo-hoo!
JB: Calm down, Kojak!
LL: Sorry about that; back to protein. I think many people forget that they mix their whey with casein (milk) anyway, getting a pretty cool 3:1 proportion. After a workout, this could equate to a big 25 to 50 gram bolus of fast acting, anabolic whey right when you need it, with the added benefit of 8 to 16 grams of long-acting, anti-catabolic casein. Of course, I've yet to see data on the combo. As a final note, in unpublished data by myself and colleagues, we looked at the body comp effects a variety of protein powders have on novice lifters. We compared gel-filtered whey, ion exchange whey, casein, soy and maltodextrin. What did we find? Nada! No reliable differences over a six-week period! In relative support of Cy, however, the casein group slightly outgrew the other groups in upper arm muscle. But again, the differences weren't statistically significant. The take home message is that no one is blowing passed his training buddy in six weeks just because he eats a different protein!
CW: Interesting data, you soy eating, grainy skinned man! As far as eating food verses powders, I have a different perspective. In today's fast paced world, many people don't have the time and/or patience to prepare whole food. Yes, whole food should be a staple, but the powders offer a concentrated, cost efficient, source of protein. While we're at it, if you're going to eat whole food, add some cottage cheese. No, that shouldn't be the mainstay of your diet either, but it offers a damn good amount of casein.
If you don't want the fat, opt for the fat free version. As far as the lactose goes, that's just a necessary evil. Hey, I hate the stuff, too! My inability to create enough lactase has caused some horrible occurrences. Let's just say that if you can smell gas in a smoke-filled strip club, it's bad! (Oddly enough, I received a year's supply of lactase enzyme tablets for Christmas last year! Think someone was trying to tell me something?) As far as the first casein verses whey study I mentioned goes, the proteins were added to calorie restricted diets, which aren't that "normal" anyway.
---------------------------------------
JB: John Berardi
CW: Cy Willson
LL: Lonnie Lowery
Protein, Protein Everywhere, But What Kind Should I Drink?
CW: Moving right along to protein types, from what I've seen, it would be safe to say that in terms of overall muscle tissue increases and decreases of body fat, casein reigns superior. It's been shown to accomplish these feats by increasing anabolism to a moderate extent, but even more importantly, decreasing catabolism to a large degree. I'm convinced that the sole reason behind this is simply because of its slow digestion and consequently, absorption rates. It provides a steady, slower paced release of amino acids into the blood stream. Casein is therefore the best protein to use before an overnight fast and for breakfast.
Whey, while having a higher BV (Biological Value), has been outperformed by casein simply because of its fast rate of digestion and absorption. It increases anabolism quickly and to a large extent, but these effects are short lived. In fact, it was shown that although amino acid concentrations increased with whey, oxidation rates also increased, creating a steady state metabolism in which there was no change in overall protein balance. It's possible, however, that whey could match casein if you were to combine it with some type of low GI carb and a little fat and continually ingest it every two hours. But, that's a big pain in the ass, as well as the wallet!
That being said, my idea of the perfect type of protein would be a combo of casein and whey. This is because of the fact that whey, while having a greater anabolic response and better BV, lacks the steady absorption rate of casein. Combine the two and pow! you've got one hell of a team! What one lacks, the other compliments.
Soy, on the other hand, is for women. Or maybe for men that want to take on the characteristics of women. Soy may have some health benefits, at least for chicks, but for men it could wreak havoc with your endocrine system, increase body fat, cause water retention, and lower Testosterone. For me, that isn't worth lowering your LDL by a few points. I don't like soy, as you may have noticed, and I don't think it has any place in a man's diet at all!
JB: But come on, Cy, what about getting in touch with our feminine sides? Actually, although the data is still mixed, whenever I've added any significant amount of soy to my diet (> 15 g/d), I've felt like crap. I've gained fat easier and definitely held more water. So now, whenever I see soy powder, I run with fear!
As far as the other protein sources, I'm sorry, Cy, but I'm not ready to dump my beef and salmon for multiple daily servings cottage cheese just yet. Yuck! Although casein seems to be winning a few battles, it certainly hasn't won the war. In fact, I just read a study that showed that three months of whey supplementation increased anaerobic muscular performance while casein didn't do squat. I tend to agree with you that casein seems superior for body composition in the few studies that have been done, especially one in which normal diets were supplemented with whey or casein, but remember, the supplement was added to a normal diet. And by "normal," I mean varied.
So adding casein in to your nutritional program seemingly would help pack on some mass. I also think, though, that adding some whey to a normal diet would be beneficial. When it comes to supplementing, this isn't a one or the other question! And notice I say supplement. That is because I think that the mainstay of the diet should be good, old fashioned food that actually requires chewing! This whole business of consuming nothing but powders all day makes me want to yak. Not only is in boring as hell, but you miss out on a whole variety of nutrients. Bring on the dead animals!
LL: You go, John! Variety is key, both for staying on a diet (without sweating every time you pass a cheeseburger) and for getting the necessary spectrum of nutrients that no protein powder or MRP can provide (at least in correct proportions). Humans evolved to eat animal flesh, not reconstituted powders. I think that meat, egg, casein, whey, and soy are all valuable in their own way.
I'm not sure that I agree soy will turn a guy into a chick. The isoflavones in soy isolates can bind estrogen receptors, inducing a much weaker (even anti-estrogenic) effect than if natural estradiol latched on. (Yes, even T-mag readers have some circulating estrogen!) Isoflavones seem to affect beta estrogen receptors (in bone, for example), not alpha estrogen receptors. If they do cause water retention and fat accumulation in men, I need to see this data before it's too late! However, I feel compelled to say that I eat soy and I'm a muscular, hairy, balding, lean, grainy-skinned man, baby! Whoo-hoo!
JB: Calm down, Kojak!
LL: Sorry about that; back to protein. I think many people forget that they mix their whey with casein (milk) anyway, getting a pretty cool 3:1 proportion. After a workout, this could equate to a big 25 to 50 gram bolus of fast acting, anabolic whey right when you need it, with the added benefit of 8 to 16 grams of long-acting, anti-catabolic casein. Of course, I've yet to see data on the combo. As a final note, in unpublished data by myself and colleagues, we looked at the body comp effects a variety of protein powders have on novice lifters. We compared gel-filtered whey, ion exchange whey, casein, soy and maltodextrin. What did we find? Nada! No reliable differences over a six-week period! In relative support of Cy, however, the casein group slightly outgrew the other groups in upper arm muscle. But again, the differences weren't statistically significant. The take home message is that no one is blowing passed his training buddy in six weeks just because he eats a different protein!
CW: Interesting data, you soy eating, grainy skinned man! As far as eating food verses powders, I have a different perspective. In today's fast paced world, many people don't have the time and/or patience to prepare whole food. Yes, whole food should be a staple, but the powders offer a concentrated, cost efficient, source of protein. While we're at it, if you're going to eat whole food, add some cottage cheese. No, that shouldn't be the mainstay of your diet either, but it offers a damn good amount of casein.
If you don't want the fat, opt for the fat free version. As far as the lactose goes, that's just a necessary evil. Hey, I hate the stuff, too! My inability to create enough lactase has caused some horrible occurrences. Let's just say that if you can smell gas in a smoke-filled strip club, it's bad! (Oddly enough, I received a year's supply of lactase enzyme tablets for Christmas last year! Think someone was trying to tell me something?) As far as the first casein verses whey study I mentioned goes, the proteins were added to calorie restricted diets, which aren't that "normal" anyway.
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