allow me to retort
anabolicmd said:
First of Nonerz, thank you for contributing so thoughtfully to this thread. Harvey Newtons book is a very good introduction to olympic weightlifting and its benefits in other sports. I also believe that oly lifting has the most to offer any athlete in terms of developing explosive speed and strength, as well as excellent flexibility throughout full ranges of motion.
And yes, the bar trajectory in the clean ends up being an elongated S curve, but, we do not aim for an S curve. We aim for a straight trajectory by keeping the bar as close and as vertical as possible throughout the lift. It is virtually impossible to lift the bar at a perfect 90 degree angle, but again, the goal is to get as close as possible. The mechanics and alignment of our bodies, as well as our flexibility and technique will dictate how close each of us can get to the ideal bar trajectory. And, starting out with the bar as close to the body is the ideal starting point if our goal is to keep the distance as short as possible, as well as focus all the energy into lifting the bar up, rather than back and forth. I actually brought up and discussed the S curve issue in post # 16 on this thread, and I adress some of my experience as well. I guess you missed it? 
But back to the deadlift: in that lift as well, we aim for the shortest trajectory, and keeping the bar as close to the body during the entire lift is how we do it. To illustrate my point even better, consider the trap bar deadlift. Due to the construction of the bar, one can actually deadlift along the ideal bar trajectory, because the trap bar loops around the body. Trap bar deadlifts are much easier ton perform precisely because you dont have to worry about keepig the bar close, its already there, and the shortened distance allows lifters to lift more than they can in the conventional deadlift.
Well, to be quite honest, there were several posts that I agreed with and several posts that I disagreed with...I didn’t feel like rehashing all of it! But you are correct; I didn’t invest the time into reading the thread in its entirety before posting, so please forgive me there. Nate hopped on to my account and posted under my handle by accident…my actual fist post was #44. However, the post that I was responding to just struck me as very wrong.
I’m sure you gained a lot of experience with the Oly lifts if you trained with an Oly weighlifting club! I wish they had something like that at my gym! Anyhow, what technique were they teaching? I would say that I’m still relatively new to the Oly lifts and enjoy incorporating them into my training in addition to some PL style training, strongman training, GPP…all on top of teaching a cardio kickboxing class & aqua aerobics class up to 4 times a week!
Now back to the lifts…you said the following in post # 16 regarding your training experience with Dragomir…
anabolicmd said:
…Back then the theory was that the bar should sweep in, then out and back in at the shoulders, makin an elongated "s" curve along the way. After that, I hadnt done much oly lifting untill 98 - 99, and that was when I had the good fortune to meet Dragomir Cioroslan, and I spent a year and a half training with a member of the US weightlifting team. Thats when I found out that the "s" motion was not in use anymore,
that it was all about keeping the path of the bar as vertical as possible, as close as possible to the body as well. Its simply the most efficient way of pulling the bar.
It seems that your viewpoint often ends up coming across like fact…I have a hard time accepting that, especially because I’m not familiar with the extent of your training (I haven’t been on this board in a while).
You also stated in post # 20…
anabolicmd said:
…But, it is about lifting the biggest weight, and there are certain factors that are universal. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Any deviation from that line is an additional, unnecessary and detrimental waste of energy.
Wow, that is pretty harsh! “Any deviation from that line is an additional, unnecessary and detrimental waste of energy.” Now to me, that seems like your being very clear, but I still disagree with that based on my (somewhat limited, yet still practical) experience, as well as good reading from a trusted source.
Exerpt
From Harvey Newton’s
“Explosive Lifting for Sports.”
Page 40
Evolution of Pulling Technique
As weightlifting has evolved from a fairly brute strength sport to one of combined explosive power and strength, the method used to elevate heavier weights has gone through many changes. You can still perform a snatch or clean-and-jerk by simply picking the barbell up off the floor with little concern for technique, but you won’t get very far. Moreover, you certainly won’t gain the benefits of doing the lifts explosively and correctly.
Toward a More Efficient Technique
Since weightlifting involves two pulling movements, a good deal of the training time is devoted to pulling the barbell from the floor to overhead (snatch), to the chest (clean), or somewhere along the torso (partial pulling exercises). However, the mere act of correctly picking up the bar is more complex than it may appear initially. How the bar is lifted is crucial to mastering proper technique and maintaining progress.
Biomechanics have studied for many years that style of pulling used weightlifting. A fairly unified body of knowledge exists in terms of the most efficient lifting style. Of course, there is plenty of room for individual differences, as well. Depending on one’s own body size and limb proportions, coaching style, or in some cases cultural effects, two successful snatches may arrive at the same basic end position through much different means…
The S-Pull
…With records going higher each year, sport scientists determined that successful lifts showed a barbell trajectory that did not follow a perfectly straight line, although that is obviously the shortest distance between two points. It was determined that the most successful performances reflected a trajectory that looked something like an elongated letter S. Don’t get confused here: The bar is not actively swung in or out, as this can quickly lead to failure. It is much easier to manipulate the body, which normally weighs less, around the bar than vice versa.
End of exerpt
Furthermore you went on to say the following…
anabolicmd said:
… the shortest distance between the botom and top of a benc pres is, you guessed it, a straight line vertically going up.
That doesn’t even seem correct. For some, from the side it looks more like an upside down J (I’m talking PL style here).
Then in post # 26, you say this:
anabolicmd said:
Sorry Nate, its funny you bring that up, because Walkingbeast and I just hashed that out on pms. This is what I came up with: the ideal position is to have the bar as close to the spot right under your center of gravity. That is the straightest and shortest line. You are 1000% correct, our legs occupy most of that ideal spot, lol. So while it is absolutely true that the lifters own body presents an obstacle to pulling along the perfect path, one should nonetheless always try to go to the absolute maximum closest point to that perfect line that he or she can.
Once again, are you suggesting that this is fact? “What you came up with.” How amusing! Anyhow, that aside, I’m trying to understand your point.
“The ideal position is to have the bar as close to the spot right under your center of gravity. That is the straightest and shortest line.”
Once again I would refer you to the portion of Harvey Newton’s book I quoted above.
By the way, I’m more like 145 lbs, 25 % BF with a 250 Sumo DL (raw, with only rosin), 115 Bench, 200 x 2 Squat.
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