Planned Parenthood Offering Free Abortions After Attack

[Weapon X]

PLANNED PARENTHOOD OFFERING FREE ABORTIONS AFTER ATTACK

NEW YORK, Sep 20, 01 (CWNews.com/LSN.ca) - Planned Parenthood of New York City (PPNYC) has put out a press release indicating it is offering free abortions for a limited time in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the city.

Following the example of the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) which over the past few years has used tragic events to target stricken communities with "reproductive health kits"-- including abortifacient drugs and devices-- PPNYC is offering "complete reproductive health care from September 18-22 free of cost." The press release by PPNYC lists among the "services" they provide "birth control; emergency contraception; medical and surgical abortion."

As recently as last month, LifeSite reported that pro-life groups in El Salvador were blasting the UNFPA for using the tragedy caused by recent devastating earthquakes in the country to promote abortion. UNFPA sent reproductive health kits including abortifacient morning-after-pills and vacuum aspirators used for early term abortions. Julia Cardenal, president of "Si A La Vida" (Yes to Life) told Cybercast News Service, "We had two major earthquakes in El Salvador in January and February of this year, and instead of sending us food or medicine, or something to meet our needs, they sent a range of contraception devices."



The photos were removed for obvious reasons

 

[Kakdiesel]

Jesus Weapon X..that was horrible! but i feel you..what does this solve? offering free killings after thousands dead?

makes no sense..it aint like this is some retail store offering a Labor Day Weekend Sale (which what they sound like)

totally disgusts me..even though I am for pro choice under EXTREME conditions, it saddens me to see this..

I feel ya weapon x..you're a great guy on this board..

 

[MoneyBags]

i think abortions are a very good thing. its no worse than jerkin the gherkin and shooting your load in a tissue then throwing it out.

 

[the nature boy]

i think abortions are a very good thing. its no worse than jerkin the gherkin and shooting your load in a tissue then throwing it out.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm all for abortion too, but isn't the timing a little off? It's like offering free ice after a blizzard.

My stance: Pro abortion, Pro Gun, Pro Death Penalty. I guess that means I'm Pro-Death. ROCK ON!!!!

 

[velvett]

I really dislike radical PRO-LIFERS.

I would like to see proof other than the two web sites you listed.

Planned Parenthood Perhaps?

 

[Weapon X]

I really dislike radical PRO-LIFERS.

Define "radical Pro-Lifer" vs. "Pro-Lifer".
It's easier to kill a baby if you've never seen what you're killing.

 

[velvett]

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!


FROM THEIR WEBSITE

PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF NYC OFFERS FREE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE IN WAKE OF WORLD TRADE CENTER TRAGEDY

Planned Parenthood of New York City (PPNYC) extends our sympathies to all who have suffered a loss in the tragic events of last week.

To provide for the many New York women who have been displaced or may otherwise be in need due to the World Trade Center tragedy, PPNYC will be offering complete reproductive health care from September 18th through September 22nd free of cost. Any woman who has been unable to obtain care can visit any of our three centers for free comprehensive reproductive health services during this week, including GYN care, birth control, emergency contraception, and STD and HIV testing and counseling, among others.

PPNYC has health centers in Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Manhattan. We encourage you to make an appointment by clicking here or calling PPNYC at 212-965-7000. We will do our best to accommodate walk-ins.

 

[Frackal]

We really seem to see eye to eye on a lot of issues Nature Boy.

 

[MoneyBags]

i always say im pro death. i mean some people really shouldnt be having kids. also im scared what if i get a chick pregnant by accident. im not ready to be a daddy.

 

[Weapon X]

Didn't Margaret Sanger found Planned Parenthood"


"Instead of helping the poor, she considered them slum dwellers (particularly Blacks, Hispanics, and Jewish immigrants) who would soon overrun the boundaries of their slums, contaminating the better elements of society with their diseases and inferior genes.

Throughout the 200+ pages of this book Sanger called for the elimination of "human weeds," for the cessation of charity, for the segregation of "morons, misfits, and maladjusted," and for the sterilization of "genetically inferior races."[4] In this same book she argued that organized attempts to help the poor were the "surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding, and is perpetuating . . . defectives, delinquents, and dependents."[5] She called for coercive sterilization, mandatory segregation, and rehabilitative concentration camps for all inferior Blacks, Hispanics, poor Whites, and Catholics.

Sanger's brand of prejudice was based on what author John L. Keller labels "Scientific Racism," the belief that as long as people demonstrated "a good quality gene pool" they were esteemed a valuable part of society. On the other hand, if a group, including Whites, demonstrated undesirable traits, their fertility had to be curbed along with other "inferiors and undesirables."[6]

George Grant stated in Grand Illusions: "In her book Women and the New Race she asserted that the 'most merciful thing a large family can do to one of its infant members is to kill it.'"[7]

Minorities
On October 19, 1939, Sanger outlined a plan for stopping the growth of the Black community. She predicted that "the most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their rebellious members."[8] Her planning, which included being careful to make it appear that hand-picked Blacks are in control, is followed with success even today. Faye Wattleton's position as President of PPFA was testimony to that fact."

http://www.all.org/issues/pp04a.htm



I guess now you don't like me because by speaking up for the victims, I have become a "radical" in your eyes.

 

[Weapon X]

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!


FROM THEIR WEBSITE

PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF NYC OFFERS FREE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE IN WAKE OF WORLD TRADE CENTER TRAGEDY

Planned Parenthood of New York City (PPNYC) extends our sympathies to all who have suffered a loss in the tragic events of last week.

To provide for the many New York women who have been displaced or may otherwise be in need due to the World Trade Center tragedy, PPNYC will be offering complete reproductive health care from September 18th through September 22nd free of cost. Any woman who has been unable to obtain care can visit any of our three centers for free comprehensive reproductive health services during this week, including GYN care, birth control, emergency contraception, and STD and HIV testing and counseling, among others.

PPNYC has health centers in Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Manhattan. We encourage you to make an appointment by clicking here or calling PPNYC at 212-965-7000. We will do our best to accommodate walk-ins.

I don't see that you've corrected me.
Are you saying that PP doesn't think Abortion is part of their "comprehensive reproductive health services"??

 

[velvett]

Pro-Lifers believe that regardless the situation a fertilized egg is a life and should meet through to the end of a pregnancy term and hopefully without any complications have a healthy birth.


Radicals - make up stories, post sickeningly inaccurate reports and photographs to express their views. Radicials send dead baby parts to doctor's families, do drive by shootings, office and women center bombings and threaten the lives of those they feel do not share their wholly then thou opinion.

 

[MoneyBags]

people should be more like me. how awesome would the world be if it was just a bunch of moneybags running around.

 

[velvett]

I don't see that you've corrected me.
Are you saying that PP doesn't think Abortion is part of their "comprehensive reproductive health services"??

No.

Would you like me to get you a letter personally addressed to you from their Director?

Believe me - it would be my pleasure.

 

[Kryp2o]

people should be more like me. how awesome would the world be if it was just a bunch of moneybags running around.

Yeah I'd like to own a couple of money bags loaded with money. LOL.

 

[Weapon X]

No.

Would you like me to get you a letter personally addressed to you from their Director?

Believe me - it would be my pleasure.

I wouldn't accept mail from a murderer, whether it would be your pleasure or no.
So, since I've posted photos, you gropup me with people who shoot Abortion Doctors. You sound like a Radical Pro-Abortioner.

Pushed some buttons here, huh?

Don't worry, I'm sure a Liberal mod will delete this whole thread and you can go back to feeling better.

 

[RyanH]

We can always count on Planned Parenthood to protect a woman's constitutional right to PRIVACY AND AUTONOMY.

I'm glad they are still protecting women as they've always done.

Ryan.

 

[MoneyBags]

its just as much a mans right as a womens. i hate that its up to the chick to have an abortion. like the guy shouldnt have any say in whether he will be a dad or not?

 

[velvett]

X - I respect your point of view but not the twisting of facts.

If I were to get into the facts of who abuses the option of abortion the most in NYC I would be condemned a racist.

Abortion is HIGHLY abused.

Lack of contrception IN ANY FORM is highly abused.

I'm pro-choice but not pro-abortion if you will. I believe it's is an option than needs to be there but perhaps the duration of time in which the procedure can be preformed could be shortened or set back.


I am replused at stories of women have 4 and 5 abortions.

An accident is ONCE you should learn the first time.

 

[RyanH]

Velvett-

Don't despair. Many men don't understand a woman's right to privacy since 1) they will never carry a child, and since 2) most men were even hesitant to give women any rights, such as the fundamental right to vote.

It's very laughable to hear a man tell a woman to keep a child since obviously it isn't their body, their feelings, or their lives.

Ryan.

 

[RyanH]

Since WeaponX so strongly believes in the United States Constitution, he should realize finally that the Supreme Court recognized abortion as a fundamental right of every woman.

Come on WeaponX, uphold the Constitution.

 

[velvett]

I wouldn't accept mail from a murderer, whether it would be your pleasure or no.
So, since I've posted photos, you gropup me with people who shoot Abortion Doctors. You sound like a Radical Pro-Abortioner.

Pushed some buttons here, huh?

Don't worry, I'm sure a Liberal mod will delete this whole thread and you can go back to feeling better.

Excuse me?
A murderer?

1 - never had an abortion

2- watched my father be threatened my entire life (in 25 years he never performed an abortion)

3- have received dead baby parts at our home growing up

4- buttons? the photos you took from abortionno.org are inaccurate.

5- I would rather see the thread stay up.


I feel fine thanks.

 

[MoneyBags]

why the f is it the right of a women!!!? the man should have just as much say if he doesnt want a kid!!

 

[RyanH]

why the f is it the right of a women!!!? the man should have just as much say if he doesnt want a kid!!

No he shouldn't. He doesn't have to carry the child for 9 months. It's not him that's putting his life at risk and its not him that has to deal with the morningsickness and the pain.

 

[SeXKiTTen_CanDy]

I've been thinking lately. I wouldn't want to bring a child into this fucked up world.

If I ever have kids, I'd want them in my late 20's like 27 or so, but then I think, by that fucking time (I am 18), this world is going to be megaly fucked up, and I wont want to bring a innocent baby into it all.


I'm for abortion. I know it's fucking cruel shit, but sometimes it's necessary.

 

[Kakdiesel]

Abortion sucks. But its a choice. And you better believe it is almost never an easy decision for a woman.

I respect the choice of any woman who chooses to have or not have one.

I dont agree with the choice of abortion, but I agree with the freedom of doing so.

If a woman wants to kill an innocent child, that should lay heavy on her concious--so be it.

Could I EVER prevent someone doing so? no. Would I? i would suggest it. But we all make choices in our own lives. We choose what path to take--and consequently, that choice affects our futures down the road.

Personally, I think its fucked up, but again, women can do what they want to themselves--they will carry that burden with them for the rest of their lives.

And yes RyanH, I believe in the constitution and all rights of all men, women, and races, and creeds.

But I dont want any pro-choice advocate to even try to say they are not commiting some degree of murder in killing a fetus. Its just one of those weird things in our law, that says it really doesnt count as murder.

So what am I tryin to say? I am for pro-choice, but like Velvy said, i'm not pro abortion.

 

[velvett]

And for the lukers to the thread...

About the fetus...


at 10 weeks the fetus is about 2- 2.4 centimeters in length.
The spinal cord and brain have formed and continue to grow while the organs are nearly formed but they are not yet developed.

 

[MoneyBags]

No he shouldn't. He doesn't have to carry the child for 9 months. It's not him that's putting his life at risk and its not him that has to deal with the morningsickness and the pain.

if you think that those 9 months is all that matter in having a kid your a retard. unless you dont care if they guy is a decent father or not. but if you care about the guy being a father then you should respect the mans opinion as much as the girls.

 

[RyanH]

if you think that those 9 months is all that matter in having a kid your a retard. unless you dont care if they guy is a decent father or not. but if you care about the guy being a father then you should respect the mans opinion as much as the girls.

The man's opinion has nothing to do with the decision to abort the child. If the father eventually runs off, guess who will be stuck with the child, alone? The woman, of course.

9 months in a woman's life is a long time. Do you see the insanity of a man telling a woman that she must do something with her body for 9 months because he wants her to? If the man cares so much about having a child, he should marry a anti-choice woman.

Other than that, it's her choice. And, the United Supreme Court has consistently found this to be the case.

Ryan.

 

[velvett]

I guess now you don't like me because by speaking up for the victims, I have become a "radical" in your eyes.

NAh, I still think you're pretty cool.

Besides, Margaret Sanger was no angel either. sigh...



Seeing those pictures - knee jerk reaction - I hate that shit.

 

[RyanH]

And by the way Moneybags, what if the woman dies giving birth to the child that she didn't want, but the man did?

 

[MoneyBags]

thats total bullshit. im not the type that can just run off. i have things going on. if im gonna be a dad then its much more than a 9 month commitment. i should have an equal say.

 

[MoneyBags]

And by the way Moneybags, what if the woman dies giving birth to the child that she didn't want, but the man did?

please dont debate with me using the <1 percentile chance.

 

[spentagn]

The man's opinion has nothing to do with the decision to abort the child. If the father eventually runs off, guess who will be stuck with the child, alone? The woman, of course.

9 months in a woman's life is a long time. Do you see the insanity of a man telling a woman that she must do something with her body for 9 months because he wants her to? If the man cares so much about having a child, he should marry a anti-choice woman.

Other than that, it's her choice. And, the United Supreme Court has consistently found this to be the case.

Ryan.

What if the mother runs off? Unlikely, yes. Unheard of, no. If the anti-life woman doesn't want to encounter the risk of becoming pregnant, then she doesn't need to have sex. And please, don't mention the >1% rape and molesting cases.

Yes, the Supreme Court has agreed it is a woman's right. But I believe that abortion is inherently wrong. As an aspiring law student, you surely respect that court and all its decisions, so drop the joint and the roids.

 

[Rhinoceros]

It's very laughable to hear a man tell a woman to keep a child since obviously it isn't their body, their feelings, or their lives.

Ryan.

It's not the woman's body or life either; it's the child's. If life doesn't begin at conception, then where does it begin?

Rhino

 

[velvett]

It's not the woman's body or life either; it's the child's. If life doesn't begin at conception, then where does it begin?

Rhino

I think it's at birth or when the child is out of it's mother's womb - without the mother's body there would be no life.

 

[Rhinoceros]

If a woman wants to kill an innocent child, that should lay heavy on her concious--so be it.



But I dont want any pro-choice advocate to even try to say they are not commiting some degree of murder in killing a fetus. Its just one of those weird things in our law, that says it really doesnt count as murder.

So you admit it's murder yet you're okay with 1,500,000 such murders happening every year in this country? I don't understand that...

I agree it's one of those weird things in our law, and it makes me ashamed to be an American. As much as I feel for the families of the 5,800 who died on Sept. 11, that tragedy pales in comparison to the murder of over a million unborn children a year; where's the national outrage over that???


Rhino

 

[Rhinoceros]

I think it's at birth or when the child is out of it's mother's womb - without the mother's body there would be no life.

What's the difference between a child that just came from the womb and the same child a few hours before? Are we going to define "life" as "being able to sustain yourself?" In that case, I guess the life of any small child is forfeit. The child is no more able to provide for his needs 5 months after birth than he was 10 weeks after conception.

Rhino

 

[velvett]

What's the difference between a child that just came from the womb and the same child a few hours before? Are we going to define "life" as "being able to sustain yourself?"

In this case yes - whether it be by the mother or by machine in cases of premature birth.

In that case, I guess the life of any small child is forfeit. The child is no more able to provide for his needs 5 months after birth than he was 10 weeks after conception.

Rhino

EXACTLY!

People should consider that everytime they have sex without a condom or decide to "get pregnant" because it's the thing to do.

 

[Rhinoceros]

EXACTLY!

People should consider that everytime they have sex without a condom or decide to "get pregnant" because it's the thing to do.

So... it's okay to kill a 5 month old child?

Rhino

 

[spentagn]

I have a beautiful daughter who just turned 1, and a box of Trojans to thank for her. Condoms are not the answer. The pill or the shots, or when they develop a pill for men, that is a help. Abstinence is the only safegaurd. That and homosexual relationships.

 

[velvett]

So... it's okay to kill a 5 month old child?

Rhino

First of all a 10-week-old fetus is not developed enough to survive outside of the womb. Typically the organs are NOT developed.


Have you seen how selfish and inadequate MOST parents are?
At 5 month, 5 years and 15 years the parent is only in for it for themselves - NOT ALL PARENTS - but many.

And no it's not OK to kill a 5 month old.


How many infants do you see in day care?
Why the hell did you have a child if you don't nurture your child?

Need to work?
Single parent?

What you didn't think about that before you chose to bring a life into the world?

What you mommy’s not going to take care of your baby?


Don't even get me started.

Then there are the wealthy people...

The pop out babies for the nannies to care for....
And to of course carry on the family name.




When people get responsible with birth control or more respectively abstinence (I won't hold my breath) I may - just maybe slightly alter my view.





Listen - I've said it before - you are entitled to your point of view as am I. My views are shaped by the family and surroundings I grew up in and I am coontent with that notion.

 

[spentagn]

They've had their chance to think about it. Before they had sex.

You have views based on your family and how you grew up, and you argue them rationally. Good.

I have my views based upon my experiences and family, and attempt to argue them in such a manner.

 

[the nature boy]

We really seem to see eye to eye on a lot of issues Nature Boy.

Hey Frackal...... Great minds think alike.



Now for everyone else, I'll make some points and they will make sense to everyone

If you are a PRO-LIFER, then it is your responsiblitity to ADOPT UNWANTED CHILDREN!!!! It's that simple.

Abortion is a pretty awful thing. However, what's worse is a child that is unwanted, that is raised without love. If it is not adopted by a loving family, THEN WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS TO IT?!?!?! TELL ME?!?!?! It fucking breaks into my car and steals my shit. Or even worse it kills people. An unwanted, unloved child is a menace to society.

If you're a pro-lifer, ask yourself this:

Do you adopt?

 

[the nature boy]

Well? Where are all of the pro-lifers? Let's debate!!!!!

 

[thebabydoc]

Nature boy, good point.

Kakdiesl sort of touches on the very point.

It's funny how easy it is to believe in something and stand up for
or against something when it dosen't involve you.

If I had a nickle for every anti-abortion, "right-to-life", holier-than-thou
religious zealot who said to me "I don't believe in abortion but...." as
I began her D&C, well I do. And I hope you get the point.

If you ain't been there, don't even begin to argue the point.

Spentagn, I'm sure that because you made the decision to keep your
daughter, you think you've been there. You haven't.

For 50% of all women, it is the most horrible decision they will make in their
whole lives, made worse by the hundreds of radical morons screaming at
them and showing them false propaganda and pictures. Do you think these
women are not torn? No matter what decision they make, it stays with them
their whole life.

The FACT that 50% of all women have had an abortion tells you 1)where the
true majority lies and 2)when crunch time comes, a good number of anti-abortion
(pro-life, my ass) people choose abortion or "anti-life" (whichever one you like).

Before you try to attack or flame me, let me just let you into a little secret...
I do more than 300 deliveries yearly. I "talked" a woman out of an abortion
just this morning and will be caring for her pregnancy, (I do this almost
every week).

So give up your false and preconceived beliefs that abortionists are
satan's spawn, doing his work here on earth, 'cause it just ain't so.
The law in this country allows choice in reproduction; if you are a patriot
(as so many here claim to be), you respect the laws of this country or go
about trying to change them in the proper manner, not through terrorism.

If you ain't been there, trust me you don't want to be there, and thank your
god that you never have been. Never has the expression "Don't judge a man
until you've walked a mile in his shoes" been more true. Pro-abortion people
can always chose life. Pro-lifers can never choose choice.

 

[Kakdiesel]

Nature boy, good point.

Kakdiesl sort of touches on the very point.......Pro-abortion people
can always chose life. Pro-lifers can never choose choice.

um what point? LOL i forget...anyways that last statement..thats deep shit man..nice

 

[the nature boy]

Nature boy, good point.

Kakdiesl sort of touches on the very point.

It's funny how easy it is to believe in something and stand up for
or against something when it dosen't involve you.

If I had a nickle for every anti-abortion, "right-to-life", holier-than-thou
religious zealot who said to me "I don't believe in abortion but...." as
I began her D&C, well I do. And I hope you get the point.

If you ain't been there, don't even begin to argue the point.

Spentagn, I'm sure that because you made the decision to keep your
daughter, you think you've been there. You haven't.

For 50% of all women, it is the most horrible decision they will make in their
whole lives, made worse by the hundreds of radical morons screaming at
them and showing them false propaganda and pictures. Do you think these
women are not torn? No matter what decision they make, it stays with them
their whole life.

The FACT that 50% of all women have had an abortion tells you 1)where the
true majority lies and 2)when crunch time comes, a good number of anti-abortion
(pro-life, my ass) people choose abortion or "anti-life" (whichever one you like).

Before you try to attack or flame me, let me just let you into a little secret...
I do more than 300 deliveries yearly. I "talked" a woman out of an abortion
just this morning and will be caring for her pregnancy, (I do this almost
every week).

So give up your false and preconceived beliefs that abortionists are
satan's spawn, doing his work here on earth, 'cause it just ain't so.
The law in this country allows choice in reproduction; if you are a patriot
(as so many here claim to be), you respect the laws of this country or go
about trying to change them in the proper manner, not through terrorism.

If you ain't been there, trust me you don't want to be there, and thank your
god that you never have been. Never has the expression "Don't judge a man
until you've walked a mile in his shoes" been more true. Pro-abortion people
can always chose life. Pro-lifers can never choose choice.

Good post.

No joke but my mother almost considered aborting me. Whew! I'm being 100% serious.

People seem to think getting an abortion is an easy decision. Lifers think that a woman wakes up and casually walks to the abortion clinic and kills a fetus. It's gotta be a gut wrenching life changing choice.

And honestly if it's that easy for a woman to decide to abort her fetus then you don't want that person to have children anyway.

 

[huntmaster]

I am proud to be prolife. I believe in the right to choose-but like others here, I believe the time to choose is before sex.

I think individuals need to take responsibility for their actions man or woman---and quit trying to rationalize murder.

 

[the nature boy]

I am proud to be prolife. I believe in the right to choose-but like others here, I believe the time to choose is before sex.

I think individuals need to take responsibility for their actions man or woman---and quit trying to rationalize murder.

How passionate are you about being pro-life? Do you rally at clinics?

If you do: Assuming it was fiscally feisable, would you adopt? A black child? A handicapped child? An arab child?

I'm not critizing your view point, just as long as you're not trying to forcefully shove it down anyone's throats.

 

[Austin316]

Im not for abortion, but Im also not for telling those women what to do, if they wanna do it, they can live with knowing what they've done. If it drives em crazy, I have no sympathy for them. If they can do it and always have a clear concience about it, more power to em. Not my life

 

[huntmaster]

How passionate are you about being pro-life? Do you rally at clinics?

If you do: Assuming it was fiscally feisable, would you adopt? A black child? A handicapped child? An arab child?

I'm not critizing your view point, just as long as you're not trying to forcefully shove it down anyone's throats.

I am a full time college student and I have a full time job. I do not rally at clinics---these are simply my convictions. They are based on my faith, and what I see as common sense.

If, one day in the future, I get married and am not able to have children with my wife--I would definetely adopt. I would hope that I would keep my options open as far as race goes. . . . that seems like too big of a decision to make at this point in my life, in my current situation.

thanks for asking and not assuming.

HM

 

[thebabydoc]

I am proud to be prolife. I believe in the right to choose-but like others here, I believe the time to choose is before sex.
I think individuals need to take responsibility for their actions man or woman---and quit trying to rationalize murder.

1) Perhaps you might want to rethink your definition of murder.
It is pro-lifers who rationalize... the use of the word "murder".
What would it then be called when one kills another living, breathing, self-sustaining
human being, e.g. a gynecologist?

2) What is your response to those who:
a) did not chose to have sex (incest, rape) or
b) chose to use effective contraception (IUD's, injection, surgery) yet failed?

"tough luck, you have no choice?"

As lawyers will be the first to point out, you cannot allow for "grey lines" in the
law, i.e. "in this case it's ok, in this case it's not." We do not live in a catholic (or
other religion) country; the separation of church and state exists here, and it's
for a good reason.

You may BELIEVE that it is immoral not to say grace before eating.
You may BELIEVE that it is wrong to not believe in god.
You may BELIEVE that premarital sex is wrong.

None of these things are illegal.

You have the right to be anti-abortion and not have one.
But no one has the right to force their views on anyone else, no matter how strongly
they may feel about them. That is what makes this country what it is.
To try to justify and rationalize forcing one's beliefs on others by attaching a legal term like "murder" to them in an attempt to define the act as illegal is not one
bit more valid than to call premarital sex "lewd conduct" in an attempt to outlaw it.

 

[the nature boy]

Where are all the pro-lifers??? I WANT TO DEBATE!!!!

 

[Weapon X]

Two beating hearts enter the doctor's office. One of the hearts is stopped intentionally. One beating heart leaves the office. Sounds to me like something was killed.

 

[dballer]

Velvett-

Don't despair. Many men don't understand a woman's right to privacy since 1) they will never carry a child, and since 2) most men were even hesitant to give women any rights, such as the fundamental right to vote.

It's very laughable to hear a man tell a woman to keep a child since obviously it isn't their body, their feelings, or their lives.

Ryan.

Weapon... are you thinking the same thing I am????

 

[Weapon X]

Weapon... are you thinking the same thing I am????

Oh, I'm thinking a number of things, and I'm certain that at least one of them matches what you're thinking.

 

[the nature boy]

Would you adopt a child X? If you feel so strongly for children then why don't you adopt?

Lets say we outlaw abortion. Who the hell is going to take care of the kids that nobody wants? Are you willing to do your part?

 

[Weapon X]

Would you adopt a child X? If you feel so strongly for children then why don't you adopt?

Lets say we outlaw abortion. Who the hell is going to take care of the kids that nobody wants? Are you willing to do your part?

Your argument needs an injection of logic.

1.) I made my choice. I have two children for whom I am responsible. I am the biological father of one, and the adoptive father of the other.

2.) Being against abortion does not necessitate that one be willing to adopt "unwanted" children. It instead necessitates that one be willing to fight to reform a culture that produces so many "unwanted" children.

You shouldn't fuck anyone you are not willing to raise a child with. That's not an easy solution, but it's the only one. If you get drunk and bang someone and they get pregnant, it's not up to those who didn't make your mistake to raise the child.

Take the popular pro-abortion bumper sticker: "Against Abortion? Don't get one."
More spurious logic. Let's apply that same logic to other arguments:

"Against rape? Don't rape anyone."
"Against child abuse? Don't abuse a child."
"Against terrorism? Don't commit any acts of terror."

Sound ridiculous, don't they?

While I personally do not commit any of the acts above, I do believe that our society benefits from laws against them.

"Taking care of the kids nobody wants" is a separate issue entirely. And I think our nation is debased by seeking an answer to that question in the murder of those very children.

 

[the nature boy]

well I don't agree with you X, but I'll give you kudos. You've adopted.

YOU WALK IT LIKE YOU TALK IT!!!!

But I don't see how my arguement is not with logic. If a child grows up with out a family and with out love, what does he become? A MONSTER. How can you expect one to love when he/she has never known love? How can you expect someone to have family values if they've never known what a family is?

 

[Rhinoceros]

1. Yes, I am pro life, and no, it's not my responsibility to adopt anybody else's kids. It's the parents' responsibility (both of them) to deal with the consequences of their actions. Instead of allowing them to kill their unwanted children, there should be stricter laws requiring the parents to take care of their kids and to be held accountable for the actions of their children.

2. I'd rather be an unwanted child than a dead one. If the object of abortion is to get rid of unwanted children, I have a much more effective solution; why not just go round up all the unwanted children in the country and exterminate them? I heard recently in the news about a mother who drowned all of her children. Why is she being prosecuted for murder? We should thank her for getting rid of her unwanted children, I'm sure they would have been menaces to society.

3. No contraceptive is perfect. If you don't want to deal with the possibility of having a child, you shouldn't have sex. Period. It's not that difficult.

4. In the case of rape/incest (maybe 0.1% of all abortions...) why kill the baby for his father's crime? Kill the rapist, not the child.


In the end, every excuse of the "pro choice" is just that... an excuse. There is no justification for murdering a child, no matter how inconvenient that child's life might be to you.

Rhino

 

[dballer]

They've had their chance to think about it. Before they had sex.

You have views based on your family and how you grew up, and you argue them rationally. Good.

I have my views based upon my experiences and family, and attempt to argue them in such a manner.

Amen..... Perfect logic.

 

[Weapon X]

Good post, Rhino.

 

[PsychoSkitz]

We'd live in such a better world if everyone just minded their own fucking business.

If Christianity said it was okay people's opinions would be different which proves nobody can think for themselves.

 

[Weapon X]

We'd live in such a better world if everyone just minded their own fucking business.

Yeah, the world would be a better place if everybody minded their own business. That way Jeffrey Dahmer would still be a free man, Ms. Yates could have some more kids, terrorists could hijack and fly some more planes into national landmarks, robbers wouldn't need to fear the neighborhood watch. You are just so fucking WISE! What a sage!

 

[cm3504jm]

My wife used to be pro-choice, but after going through infertility treatments and ultimately surgery to reattach her fallopian tubes, we had a child.

Then after 3 months she became pregnant again, totally unplanned.

The just of the matter is you may believe that a womans body is her business, but after experiencing parenthood, your views change.

Children are precious.

 

[PsychoSkitz]

Yea, terrorist attacks and murder are tantamount to something that affect NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON in any way. And don't give me shit that it affects the unliving fetus.

Even my "unwise" ass is able to see the difference...

 

[spentagn]

We'd live in such a better world if everyone just minded their own fucking business.

If Christianity said it was okay people's opinions would be different which proves nobody can think for themselves.

Yeah, it's all Christians. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, they love abortion. If only those damn Christians didn't fuck everything up. Wow, I'm so involved in others' business I can't even think for myself. Maybe if I wasn't a Christian, then all my problems would be solved!

 

[Weapon X]

Maybe if I wasn't a Christian, then all my problems would be solved!

<sarcasm> Yeah, then you'd be happy and peaceful like all the atheists screaming and yelling wround here! </sarcasm>

 

[big4life]

The choice of being pro life or pro choice is something each
one of us has to decide for ourselves in our heart.

Having said that I have to say that those here who have said
it is better to have unwanted children than abortion need to
visit a children's ward at a local hospital.
When you see some of the things that "parents, loved ones,
and friends" have done to these children, you will change your
mind.
The final straw for me was going in one day and seeing an
18 month old baby with burns over 60% of her body. Her
mom's boyfriend decided that since she wouldn't quit crying
he would toss a pot of boiling water on her to shut her up.
She lived for 3 days before passing away.

To this day I still cry when I think about her.
BTW. her name was Meagan, and she had the prettiest
blue eyes you have ever seen.

 

[PsychoSkitz]

You're both hypocrites. Attacking me for what I said and then saying no atheist is happy is the same.

If you truly feel the bible and your religion do not give you, and millions of other Christians, ideas and help you make up your mind, why follow them?

 

[the nature boy]

bump on big4life. That's depressing shit.

 

[big4life]

bump on big4life. That's depressing shit.

Yes it is depressing, but that goes on everyday
when people bring children into this world that
they don't want, or can't care for.

She made a big impression on me, that I will
always remember.

 

[Rhinoceros]

Of course it's depressing... but how would it have been better for that little girl to have been killed before she was born? Either way it's murder.

Rhino

 

[Weapon X]

You're both hypocrites. Attacking me for what I said and then saying no atheist is happy is the same.

If you truly feel the bible and your religion do not give you, and millions of other Christians, ideas and help you make up your mind, why follow them?

1.) Hypocrites? How's that?
2.) I didn't say no atheist is happy. If Atheism is the alternative to Faith, I'll pass, thanks.
3.) WTF? There is a difference between receiving guidance and being mindless sheep. Many people do not seem to be able to perceive this difference. I make my choices.

 

[PsychoSkitz]

Does the fetus suffer?

Does a baby suffer when it's burnt to death after being born?

How can you even compare the two?

 

[Weapon X]

Does the fetus suffer?
Does a baby suffer when it's burnt to death after being born?
How can you even compare the two?

Children react to light and dark, move to music, and jump in surpirse while still in the womb. They also feel pain.
The baby suffers when it's being dissolved by salt water injections or being broken up by a sharp-edged vacuum in the womb.
How can I compare the two? It's pretty damn easy; they're both human beings with heartbeats, brainwaves, and reactions to outside stimuli.

 

[Rhinoceros]

Thank you, WeaponX. Of course the fetus suffers. I can compare the two because they're exactly the same thing.

Rhino

 

[PsychoSkitz]

And at what point of pregnancy can the fetus do all that?

 

[velvett]

Please tell me I'm not the only woman to comment. I don't know if that's good thing or a bad thing.


Hmm.
Wow.

 

[big4life]

What I'm saying is, don't think just because a baby
is born means everything will be fine.
People that say it is better for an unwanted child to be
born rather than aborted, need to think what life was like
for her, and others like her.

As much as it hurts me to say this, yes I think it would have
been better for her mother to have had an abortion.
I would have missed out on seeing the sweetest face
I have ever seen, but she would have missed out on
18 months of pain and suffering.

I'm not debating whether fetuses feel pain or don't,
I don't know the answer to that. I just know that the
only love Meagan knew in the last days of her life
was from strangers that worked at the hospital,
or those of us that volunteered there.

There is no easy answer here, I honestly
don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
I'm just giving my experience, and my opinion.

 

[Weapon X]

And at what point of pregnancy can the fetus do all that?

The child has a heartbeat at 8 weeks. I can look up the rest for you.

I don't fully understand the question of "viability." Even after birth, teh child is not "viable" as an independant creature. In fact, it requires even more care for its survival, and indeed cannot survive without constant care from other humans.

Animals eat their young in times of crisis. Humans are supposed to be better than that.

 

[thebabydoc]

While you're looking that up, Weapon, look up the definition for Parasite

it's a bit extreme but argue with that.

 

[Weapon X]

While you're looking that up, Weapon, look up the definition for Parasite

it's a bit extreme but argue with that.

So, a newborn baby is a parasite on a woman's breast? From your previous posts, babydoc, I have to assume that you wouldn't lower yourself to using such an argument.

Or are you just implying that a child in the womb is somehow equivalent to a parasite.
Don't you people see how far you've gone? God, this is sick.
What lengths you'll go to in order to convince yourselves that this isn't a human being!!

This is the first post in a very long time to actually make me angry. A parasite.

If I am misinterpreting you (and I hope that I am), please clarify.

 

[PsychoSkitz]

What lengths you'll go to in order to convince yourselves that this isn't a human being!!

The same lengths you'll go to argue that it is a human being.

 

[thebabydoc]

another fact:

Pregnancy is almost 20x more dangerous to the mother than abortion.

Since when was "a beating heart" the definition of life?
The neurological system does not even begin to develop until 12 weeks.
There is no evidence or logic to the belief that the early fetus "feels" pain;
and if it did, what would that prove or mean, "pain=life"?

"Children react to light and dark, move to music, and jump in surpirse while still in the womb"

That's called a reflex, far different from the actions of a senescent being.

"The baby suffers when it's being dissolved by salt water injections"

Sorry, wrong, not even a method or abortion any more. And "suffers?" That's a pretty big leap of faith again. I seem to remember that when we were on the same side of a debate you liked to base your arguments on facts. Where are they here? Can't you see that your argument is coming from an emotional/religious base and you are assuming and creating facts to support your BELIEFS?

"Against rape? Don't rape anyone."
"Against child abuse? Don't abuse a child."
"Against terrorism? Don't commit any acts of terror."

LOL!! Well, it's a start!

"While I personally do not commit any of the acts above, I do believe that our society benefits from laws against them"

No kidding, maybe that's why they're AGAINST THE LAW. I have no problem with your beliefs and respect that:
a) You believe that you would not have an abortion if in that position (again, I remind you that for the most part, it seems that most of you haven't been there. I see it every day and know the outcomes of those decisions.) and
b) You feel it is wrong for anyone to have an abortion.
Well thanks for your opinion, fortunately, in this country I am entitled to have my own and allowed to follow it.

To the others not fortunate enough to be quoted...try to use a word other than "murder;" I've already addressed that fallacy.

Why can't you see that you cannot force a human being to be a vessel for another life just because she is unfortunate enough to be carrying it? An extreme, but accurate, analogy would be for me to tie you down, inject an embryo into your body and, no matter what happened from then on, you must continue with that pregnancy just because "it is alive"

The ridiculousness of that statement echoes the ridiculousness of anti-abortionists determination that they can or should be able to impose their beliefs on another.

 

[thebabydoc]

So, a newborn baby is a parasite on a woman's breast? From your previous posts, babydoc, I have to assume that you wouldn't lower yourself to using such an argument.

Or are you just implying that a child in the womb is somehow equivalent to a parasite.
Don't you people see how far you've gone? God, this is sick.
What lengths you'll go to in order to convince yourselves that this isn't a human being!!

This is the first post in a very long time to actually make me angry. A parasite.

If I am misinterpreting you (and I hope that I am), please clarify.

No sir, a newborn baby is not what we're arguing about here. I'll even give you as much to say a fetus beyond 25 weeks. Nice try at sucking me into that game. I am referring to the human fetus, gestational age 1-168days +/-

I asked you to look up the definition of Parasite, read it, and post it.
You've been very good up to date at finding web sites and posting facts.
Then continue your disagreement with me.
I also did preface it with "it's a bit extreme, but..."

 

[gymnpoppa]

IMO

People should be married (at least 5 yrs), prove they are financially, emotionally capable of having kids. Be required to obtain a license to have kids, much like a drivers license. Of course it would never happen, but it would eliminate a great deal of the problems we are supporting financially, and otherwise because of the ignorant decisions that keep growing daily. Too many broken homes, no dual parenting, etc. Traditional family values are diminishing quickly. I'm all for adoption by whoever can offer the kind of family values necessary for producing good decent citizens. "Families" now days cannot compare to families of 20-30 years ago. The whole process needs to start in the homes. Weapon X, you seem like a throwback to the good old days, we need more good fathers like you.

As for the belief of abortions, unless its non-consensual, or life threatening (AIDS, etc), you're killing a life, plain and simple, no need to try and slice it and angle it to appease your opinion, it's a life.

 

[thebabydoc]

The same lengths you'll go to argue that it is a human being.

OUCHH!!!! Touche!! Bravo!!!!

 

[thebabydoc]

Re: IMO

As for the belief of abortions, unless its non-consensual, or life threatening (AIDS, etc), you're killing a life, plain and simple, no need to try and slice it and angle it to appease your opinion, it's a life.

Well I was in agreement with you up until this part.

So it's not "killing a life" if "[it's] non-consensual, or life threatening (AIDS, etc)"
(By the way, AIDS is not life threatening anymore to the fetus)

You're gonna have to do better than that if you want to use the "murder/killing" defense of your position.

 

[gymnpoppa]

another fact:




Why can't you see that you cannot force a human being to be a vessel for another life just because she is unfortunate enough to be carrying it? An extreme, but accurate, analogy would be for me to tie you down, inject an embryo into your body and, no matter what happened from then on, you must continue with that pregnancy just because "it is alive"

The ridiculousness of that statement echoes the ridiculousness of anti-abortionists determination that they can or should be able to impose their beliefs on another.

Unfortunate? What do you mean by unfortunate? I don't get your accurate analogy of tie down......these teenagers having unprotected sex, getting abortions are not tied down, nor are the adults......not trying to flame you, but wondering what you mean by that?

 

[gymnpoppa]

Re: Re: IMO

Well I was in agreement with you up until this part.

So it's not "killing a life" if "[it's] non-consensual, or life threatening (AIDS, etc)"
(By the way, AIDS is not life threatening anymore to the fetus)

You're gonna have to do better than that if you want to use the "murder/killing" defense of your position.

Bad choice of words? Okay, whatever you want to call it, I'm not versed in the terminology of abortions, I'd rather work on building a foundation to eliminate the mistakes that bring on the decisions to do or not. As I think about it, I'd have to be involved in a situation one way or another to offer a better opinion. I understand what the root of the problem is, and nobody from this board on up to the White House has a plan to reduce the single parent population, or broken home environments breeding the problems with our society......my .02
I yearn for a return (it'll never happen here) to days where kids respected adults, kids had manners, were much more obedient,
didn't bring guns to school and use them, (kids had access to guns then, but had enough respect for our parents not to even go near them)

 

[thebabydoc]

gympoppa:

I am not trying to flame you but I tire of this.
I am too advanced on this issue to fall into the standard anti-abortion traps
of arguing responsibility, unwanted LIVING children, murder, etc, etc, etc...

1) "Unfortunate" merely expresses that woman who is forced to make this decision,
nothing more, nothing less. Do not try to find any double meaning in this

2) My last statement only addresses the issue of "life". What it means is that, according to
the arguments advanced by anti-abortionists, no matter how the life got there, life is life and should not be "killed".

This is however, in a way, something that may be an issue in the not-to distant future. Could I make a mother an unwilling surrogate? Actually, yes because all I would need to do is inject an embryo into her abdomen. It is pretty new science, but it seems that the tubes will "pick up" the embryo and carry it to the uterus. Although this is akin to rape, that is the warning I first made about "grey areas" in law.

Anti-abortionists need to try to convince others to share their beliefs, not terrorize them or force them into not having abortions with propaganda and false statements.

 

[thebabydoc]

Re: Re: Re: IMO

Bad choice of words? Okay, whatever you want to call it, I'm not versed in the terminology of abortions, I'd rather work on building a foundation to eliminate the mistakes that bring on the decisions to do or not. As I think about it, I'd have to be involved in a situation one way or another to offer a better opinion. I understand what the root of the problem is, and nobody from this board on up to the White House has a plan to reduce the single parent population, or broken home environments breeding the problems with our society......my .02
I yearn for a return (it'll never happen here) to days where kids respected adults, kids had manners, were much more obedient,
didn't bring guns to school and use them, (kids had access to guns then, but had enough respect for our parents not to even go near them)

Dude, I agree with you 100%
I hate performing "repeat" offenders.
But I make a difference. I get girls on contraception, I adopt out babies, I get women to have the tubal ligation.
There are many grey areas in life but you have to allow people to make their own choices.

 

[thebabydoc]

Weapon X, come out and play (Get it???)

Did we lose Weapon X?
I hope your looking up that definition and having the hard time I know
you will have with it. This ain't no amateur hour here, you're playin' with the
big boys now.

I wouldn't dare argue scripture with you.

 

[Weapon X]

No sir, a newborn baby is not what we're arguing about here. I'll even give you as much to say a fetus beyond 25 weeks. Nice try at sucking me into that game. I am referring to the human fetus, gestational age 1-168days +/-

I mentioned that a newborn is not "viable" and you brought up the parasite issue. Therefore, I assumed you were talking about newborns. Pardon me.

par·a·site (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.
A professional dinner guest, especially in ancient Greece.

Technically true, but certainly it's a charged term when used colloquially, no?

This thread will convince no one, I am sure. But I am truly saddened by the responses. And I am not using hyperbole. I really am saddened deeply.
I was distubred and angered by the anti-Semitism that was displayed a few weeks ago in a thread that ended up having to be deleted, and I am disyturbed and saddened by this thread.
It's been educational for me, and I thank everyone for being frank. I need to go process this.

 

[Weapon X]

Re: Weapon X, come out and play (Get it???)

Did we lose Weapon X?
I hope your looking up that definition and having the hard time I know
you will have with it. This ain't no amateur hour here, you're playin' with the
big boys now.

I wouldn't dare argue scripture with you.

WTF? You're taunting me now? You haven't won anything, although I've agreed that there's nothing to be gained by continuing this argument. I thought we were being a little more mature about this.

I just got back from a business meeting and have been catching up on this thread, not avoiding it.

Playing with the big boys? I haven't been playing at all.
Have a good night, babydoc. I didn't think that I had expressed any personal disrespect to you, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[thebabydoc]

Hey Weapon

hey, I was just playing to show you they're not personal feelings, unlike that anti-semitic thread you were referring to.

Sorry to have offended you. I respect your style and professionalism in scholarly debate.

peace?

 

[Weapon X]

As with other heated discussions I've had on this board - peace.

 

[Frackal]

Weapon X is a cool righty 'cause he doesn't get all crazy about things and keeps a level head...