PCT a Hoax?

[The Red Pill]

On one side, we have the people that swear by the old school drugs, with a combo of compounds like HCG, Clomid, Nolva, Arimidex, Aromasin, ect.., believing that these drugs will help kick start our natural test production, while keeping estrogen from rebounding. Then there are the people that say these drugs will only manipulate your levels, and that you have to come off of them eventually to recover.

On the other side, we have people that think an herbal therapy, filled with natural testosterone boosters is the best way to recover. This way there are no side effects associated with SERMS, and your body is given the right ingredients to get things kicking again. Then there are the people that believe natural test boosters are essentially useless, and do nothing close to what they say they do.

Now someplace in the middle, we have people that think a combination of both of these options is the best way to go. But what if the old school way really only manipulates and prolongs recovery, and the all natural way really is just over hyped junk? Then a person would be pumping all these drugs and supplements in their body, basically for nothing.

I am currently coming to the end of my 4th cycle. In my previous 3, I have used each one of these three methods of PCT. I have noticed no difference in my recovery, and my post cycle bloods have all came back relatively the same. I am starting to believe that it does not really matter what we take for PCT, that at the end of the day, our bodies will recover by them selves. So PCT is just a hoax.

So with all of this said, I have decided that my next PCT is going to be very simple. First, I am going to use 1000iu a week of HCG for the last 5 weeks of my cycle to get my testes back up and jumping. I will continue using arimidex, .5mg twice a week, for 4 weeks after cycle to keep estrogen from rebounding. The only supplements I will be adding after Cycle will be ZMA and Vitamin C.

- HCG last 5 weeks of Cycle
- Armidex 4 weeks after Cycle
- ZMA and Vitamin C after Cycle

I hope to be back to update how this goes for me.

Cheers Mates!

 

[Nelson Montana]

Why bother doing the HCG if nothing matters?

And if your bloods came back the same, then that means that both methods worked for you.

So, in essence, your post makes no sense and your conclusion is flawed.

And ZMA is just zinc and magnesium. You can get that in any multi. If you want to save money, start there.

 

[rustilldown]

I think you may be pleasantly surprised. The human body is very resilient. It will return to homeostasis given time.

I like to recover with just aromasin and rhodiola rosea,zma, vitamin e, vitamin c, vitamin d and fish oils. I recover and feel better this way compared to whenever i use the herbal bs or serms. I also believe in tapering off gear.

Up your fats also. I eat a 40 30 30 style diet when off cycle. 40 percent fat 30 percent carb 30 percent protein. High protein is over rated and stresses the kidneys.

If I could go back in time I would be much richer with all I've wasted on supps.

Sent from my LG-D803 using EliteFitness

 

[fizzisnumerouno]

I personally like the evo pct vut that's just me. Weeks 1-2 HCGenerate ES at 5 caps ED www.needtobuildmuscle.com Weeks 3-7 N2Guard 7 Caps/ED www.needtobuildmuscle.com Weeks 1-7 GW-501516 20 mgs/ED www.sarms1.com Weeks 3-6 Ostarine 25mgs/ED (do 12.5 during week 6) www.sarms1.com Weeks 3-7 Clomid 50 mgs/ED www.ag-guys.com Weeks 3-7 Nolvadex 40/20/20/20/10 ED (taper dose weekly) www.ag-guys.com Weeks 3-6 Aromasin 12.5/12.5/7.5/7.5 EOD www.ag-guys.com reference: http://www.evolutionary.org/the-perfect-post-cycle-therapy-pct/

 

[Nelson Montana]

I think you may be pleasantly surprised. The human body is very resilient. It will return to homeostasis given time.

I like to recover with just aromasin and rhodiola rosea,zma, vitamin e, vitamin c, vitamin d and fish oils. I recover and feel better this way compared to whenever i use the herbal bs or serms. I also believe in tapering off gear.

Up your fats also. I eat a 40 30 30 style diet when off cycle. 40 percent fat 30 percent carb 30 percent protein. High protein is over rated and stresses the kidneys.

If I could go back in time I would be much richer with all I've wasted on supps.

Sent from my LG-D803 using EliteFitness

I believe that is often the case with serms. As for certain supps, evidence says otherwise. Sounds like you weren't using good ones.

 

[The Red Pill]

@Nelson
I think it is important to get your testes back kicking a little bit, that is why the HCG. It will only be used during the last few weeks of the cycle. So I guess I would consider HCG as cycle support/pre-PCT compound, rather than something to be used for PCT.

As far as my idea being flawed, I would have to disagree. I have not tried PCT the way I plan to yet, so I don't know if it will work or not. My hypothesis is that PCT drugs and supplements are not needed for the body to recover. I will let you know my conclusion after the experiment.

You can also get Vit C in any multi-vitamin, but not enough for which the purpose I am using it for

@rustilldown
Upping my fat intake is something I planned to do as-well. I think we may be on the same page here.

@fizz
That is nice, good for you. But, that type of PCT, with all the drugs, research chems, and supplements, is something that I am trying to avoid. Maybe all of that is just a waste, and you could save yourself $500.

 

[stevesmi]

I put together a pct that works 100% of the time.. that is correct 100% of the time!! I have dozens of clients who use it over and over again and people on here who have used it have all given it positive reviews. its taken me 6 years of cycling and trial and error, and spendings hundreds on bloodwork to figure out the perfect pct of 2014. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...est-pct-2014-time-break-out-whip-1328483.html <<< check it out right there

 

[digit0x]

Good on you for experimenting. Post your results.

 

[stevesmi]

Good on you for experimenting. Post your results.

I've posted my bloodwork on this board. do a search.

 

[RickRock13]

Given enough time, a lot of people will eventually fully recover without anything. But who wants to go through having low test levels and losing gains any longer than you have to? You have nothing to lose by giving your body everything you can to help it recover as quickly and efficiently as possible. It makes no sense to me to dump everything you can into a cycle to just throw it away by half assing it in recovery.

 

[Shrine1]

Given enough time, a lot of people will eventually fully recover without anything. But who wants to go through having low test levels and losing gains any longer than you have to? You have nothing to lose by giving your body everything you can to help it recover as quickly and efficiently as possible. It makes no sense to me to dump everything you can into a cycle to just throw it away by half assing it in recovery.

I agree.. I have blood test saying otherwise as well. Im thorough in my PCT, and depending on how long your cycle is, you make adjustments. Test boosters like HCGenerate, I know work.. cause my sack stays full like I got to big ass steelies in it.

My PCT is as follows and is very effective and I will extend it out if its a long cycle.

Clomid 50/50/25/25 AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer!
Nolva 40/20/20/20 AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer!
Aromasin 12.5 mg EOD AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer!
HCGenerate ES Bodybuilding, Need to Build Muscle, Muscle Bodybuilding
GW 20mg ED www.sarms1.co
Ostarine 25mg ED SARMS1.COM - The best Selective androgen receptor modulators

 

[The Red Pill]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for commenting on this thread so far, especially all of the reps. The idea of this post is to question the legitimacy of the drugs and supplements we take for PCT, and if we really need them to recover. So you using this thread as a billboard for your research chemicals and supplements essentially defeats the purpose of it. If you want to use hundreds of dollars worth of products to aid in your recovery, more power to you. And if you truly believe that everything you are taking is helping and well worth it, then who am I to tell you not to use them? My only intention is to see if my body can recover the same without these things. And if it does, I will conclude that the only thing needed for PCT is time, and everything else is not necessary.

Cheers

 

[Nelson Montana]

If you;re young and haven't done many cycles, you will eventually recover. But in the interim you will lose gains. And most people feel crappy. That is no hoax. So, why go through a period of losing gains and feeling lousy when there are things you can do to make it better?

I don't believe PCT is a sure fire cure-all. And a lot of what people recommend doesn't really restore hormonal function. But bodybuilding is about doing everything you can in the favor of having more muscle. So why not do it? But do it right.

 

[Raff]

A mix of both SERMs & natural test boosters is necessary and has helped me keep MOST of my gains from my past cycles. My PCT's look like this and are very solid if you ask me:

Liquid Toremifene 60/60/30/30/15
Aromasin 12.5 mg ED www.ag-guys.com OR Liquidex AI www.n2bm.com
HCGenerate 4caps/day www.n2bm.com
Unleashed www.n2bm.com
Ostarine 25mg ED www.sarms1.com

 

[stevesmi]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for commenting on this thread so far, especially all of the reps. The idea of this post is to question the legitimacy of the drugs and supplements we take for PCT, and if we really need them to recover. So you using this thread as a billboard for your research chemicals and supplements essentially defeats the purpose of it. If you want to use hundreds of dollars worth of products to aid in your recovery, more power to you. And if you truly believe that everything you are taking is helping and well worth it, then who am I to tell you not to use them? My only intention is to see if my body can recover the same without these things. And if it does, I will conclude that the only thing needed for PCT is time, and everything else is not necessary.

Cheers

bloodwork doesn't lie my friend. you can complain about reps and bias all you want but the difference is I have the bloodwork and I cycle.

other guys on here are on HRT or stay on. that's the difference between my advice and theirs. who you choose to listen to is up to you

 

[forexconsultant]

I come to this board for educational purposes...have learned a great deal, of which I appreciate greatly.

Personally, i subscribe more to nelson's more natural approaches to pct-and have and just finished using some ntbm's product in my ph pct...things have gone well for me.
All of that said- whereas it goes against the grain of reps schlocking their goods...however great those goods may be...and regardless of MY results using them...from an educational and analytical standpoint-if a guy is openly willing to guinea pig himself for my/our education...more power to him.

I, for one, hope you come back and post your results (with credible statistical backing, of course)...good luck

 

[Nelson Montana]

PCT is like lifting weights.

If you train hard will you build more muscle? SURE!

But if you add steroids, will you make better progress?




Same thing with adding supplements for PCT.

 

[poompoom]

I heard that if you recover naturally without a proper PCT or without a PCT, you will not 100% recover.

 

[The Red Pill]

I am 34, so I would not consider myself too young, but not too old either.

Losing gains when you come off cycle is going to happen, no matter what you run to help try to keep them. If someone tells you they ran a certain PCT and kept 100% of their gains, then they are lying to you. There is always going to be a drop off. Now I am not denying that there are things you can add to your PCT to help keep your gains. But are those things helping with your recovery, or just prolonging it so you can keep those 1-2 extra pounds of muscle you put on? (which really isn't muscle in the first place)

I just find it funny that the only people that have shared their sure fire ways of PCT in this thread, are also the people with all the banners in their signature. But no proof of the PCT actually working. Seems the ideal PCT for most people is just a smorgeous board of anti-estrogens, test boosters, and certain research chemicals that are somewhat new.

I will give props to you Steve for posting your bloodwork. My argument is that results of your bloodwork is not from the drugs and supplements you took, but from your body recovery by itself. I have blood work from my 3 previous PCT's, and I will be comparing this go around with them. I also will be comparing the other things like mood, well being, and of course how many "gains" I kept.

Cheers!

 

[forexconsultant]

Well said, sir....now lets all stop soapboxing...run the damn experiment and post up the results...lol...

 

[Nelson Montana]

I am 34, so I would not consider myself too young, but not too old either.

Losing gains when you come off cycle is going to happen, no matter what you run to help try to keep them. If someone tells you they ran a certain PCT and kept 100% of their gains, then they are lying to you. There is always going to be a drop off. Now I am not denying that there are things you can add to your PCT to help keep your gains. But are those things helping with your recovery, or just prolonging it so you can keep those 1-2 extra pounds of muscle you put on? (which really isn't muscle in the first place)

I just find it funny that the only people that have shared their sure fire ways of PCT in this thread, are also the people with all the banners in their signature. But no proof of the PCT actually working. Seems the ideal PCT for most people is just a smorgeous board of anti-estrogens, test boosters, and certain research chemicals that are somewhat new.

I will give props to you Steve for posting your bloodwork. My argument is that results of your bloodwork is not from the drugs and supplements you took, but from your body recovery by itself. I have blood work from my 3 previous PCT's, and I will be comparing this go around with them. I also will be comparing the other things like mood, well being, and of course how many "gains" I kept.

Cheers!

Wrong again. I don't sell anything.

I wrote about certain substances that I found worked through years of both research and personal investigation in my book back in 2001. I offered that information with no reimbursement whatsoever.

I was also the first person to speak out against clomid and nolvadex. Yes, years later I developed a formula based on those ingredients I suggested. UNLEASHED And PF POSTCYCLE. They are MY formulas -- not anyone else that I collect a commission on if I sell any. Never ONCE have I offered a discount code to by ANYTHING from me. Yet, for the last 10 years they've been the biggest selling PCT products among serious hardcore bodybuilders who choose to use natural supplementation and with blood tests to prove their results. I seriously don't think they're all being hoaxed.

So, I'd say that gives me a certain credibility. And again, I don't think any PCT will guarantee complete and total recovery. And I even see things suggested for PCT that are suppressive! But I know what I recommend is 100% legit. They help. They work.

You can ignore them if you wish. But that doesn't change the facts.

 

[The Red Pill]

Mr. Montana. I am well aware of who you are, and your products. I have used Post Cycle and Unleashed twice in my previous PCT's. That comment was not directed towards you. Unlike most people, what you recommend for PCT has not changed. I respect that. Personally, I am trying to see if there is going to be a difference between using the products, and not using the products. I already have a baseline for what the supplements and drugs can do, now I want to see what will happen with out them, and if they are really needed. Now if my recovery is horrible, I will certainly be going back to your combo. But if everything is smooth, I will conclude that the most important thing for recovery is time, and a healthy life style.

 

[stevesmi]

I will give props to you Steve for posting your bloodwork. My argument is that results of your bloodwork is not from the drugs and supplements you took, but from your body recovery by itself. I have blood work from my 3 previous PCT's, and I will be comparing this go around with them. I also will be comparing the other things like mood, well being, and of course how many "gains" I kept.

Cheers!

not at all and I will tell you why. the first couple cycles I ran I failed to recover and it was a horrible struggle.. i lost A LOT of gains but worst of all lost motivation and libido during pct.. it sucked!! even though I did my homework and listened to a lot of guys I was disappointed to find out those guys i was taking advice from did not even cycle!! they just stayed on!!

I have since learned from my mistakes and have put together the perfect pct of 2014 using years of experimentation. it hasn't failed me or anyone else yet


lets remember this..
the #1 thing with pct is not losing motivation and keeping your gains. this is crucial!! if you can 'feel like you are on' during pct then that pct is a success.. it is very difficult to accomplish this while NOT being suppressed, and i feel like my pct accomplishes that feat. so I am proud of it

 

[Shrine1]

I will tell you right now.. not taking anything is a mistake. I make recommendations that have worked for me. And if they have worked for me, I'll advise others. Experience equals wisdom.

People are so funny... So caught up in people taking advantage of them, they don't even use common sense. AG and N2BM have been around sometime now. If they didn't work,
They wouldn't be on this board for this long. Period.


Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[John McLane]

A mix of both SERMs & natural test boosters is necessary and has helped me keep MOST of my gains from my past cycles. My PCT's look like this and are very solid if you ask me:

Liquid Toremifene 60/60/30/30/15
Aromasin 12.5 mg ED AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer! OR Liquidex AI Bodybuilding, Need to Build Muscle, Muscle Bodybuilding
HCGenerate 4caps/day Bodybuilding, Need to Build Muscle, Muscle Bodybuilding
Unleashed Bodybuilding, Need to Build Muscle, Muscle Bodybuilding
Ostarine 25mg ED SARMS1.COM - The best Selective androgen receptor modulators

Bang on the money.....a lot of the people who take clomid feel like shit...you will never feel like that on a decent test booster/DAA.

 

[The Red Pill]

I will tell you right now.. not taking anything is a mistake. I make recommendations that have worked for me. And if they have worked for me, I'll advise others. Experience equals wisdom.

People are so funny... So caught up in people taking advantage of them, they don't even use common sense. AG and N2BM have been around sometime now. If they didn't work,
They wouldn't be on this board for this long. Period.


Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

A mistake? Maybe, but we will see.

I've never said anything about anyone taking advantage of someone. Thanks for bringing it up though.

 

[STTM]

I find your name funny, and how it fits with this. Anyone else understand it? lol

Good luck with your experiment, hope everything turns out well for you.

 

[stevesmi]

A mistake? Maybe, but we will see.

.

if you run no pct you will lose motivation to the gym .. trust me on this. it won't be fun and you will become depressed

 

[Mia305]

Very interesting thread red pill. Looking forward to your experience, post results when done!! Thanks

 

[Nelson Montana]

One more thing -- it's been my contention for years that nolvadex does absolutely nothing to restore the HPTA, so in that regard I agree with the OP. But since a legit natty T booster liek UNLEASHED and things like PF POSTCYCLE that have other benefits such as liver detox, libido enhancement and increased strength, at the very least, it's a "why not?"

 

[stevesmi]

Very interesting thread red pill. Looking forward to your experience, post results when done!! Thanks

he doesn't have to post his results, I can already tell you what will happen because I see that shit all the time.

guys will get big on cycle and hit the gym.. and then after cycle they quit on the gym and get skinny again. its pointless and a waste of money, might as well stay natty

 

[The Red Pill]

I guess we will see

 

[badguysingh]

HCG, clomid, nolva, aromasin ALL day BAby!!!!!
All the guys saying go www. blah blah.com and type in my code get 10% off and test boosters are best add them to your pct etc etc. they are SALESs Reps trying to make a few buck. also to get some free products.now watch they all gonna team up on here and start firing at me lol....

 

[badguysingh]

Stevesmi i thought you was on TRT or should i say blast and cruise. i have read on other posts and threads you say that. Now your cycling and doing PCT? So which 1 is it ? just want to clear it up?

 

[Nelson Montana]

HCG, clomid, nolva, aromasin ALL day BAby!!!!!
All the guys saying go www. blah blah.com and type in my code get 10% off and test boosters are best add them to your pct etc etc. they are SALESs Reps trying to make a few buck. also to get some free products.now watch they all gonna team up on here and start firing at me lol....

I wrote the article "Clomid -- The Big Lie" in 1998. Years before I had any take in any supplement. And the only supplement I recommend is the ones that have the ingredients I recommended years before they were put into a formula. I also collect zero money from the sales of any supplement. I make zero money either way if you do or don't buy clomid or nolvadex.

So, your statement doesn't apply to me.

 

[hardgainer183]

I agree with a lot of the premise of this thread. Curious as to the results. How quickly did you come back from using typical PCT drugs compared to an OTC PCT?

 

[badguysingh]

Nelson wat about hcgenerate and a couple others you advise people to use for pct. You make money of HCGenerate. jus want to put the truth out there. Real hcg works and its hell of alot cheaper then the hcgenerate. i have tried both. But real HCG beats the other one.

 

[stevesmi]

Stevesmi i thought you was on TRT or should i say blast and cruise. i have read on other posts and threads you say that. Now your cycling and doing PCT? So which 1 is it ? just want to clear it up?

I cycle. have always cycled.

where did you read I was doing TRT, I have said numerous times I will not do TRT until I am into my late 50's and beyond

you sound like a troll or you are confusing me with someone else.

 

[stevesmi]

Nelson wat about hcgenerate and a couple others you advise people to use for pct. You make money of HCGenerate. jus want to put the truth out there. Real hcg works and its hell of alot cheaper then the hcgenerate. i have tried both. But real HCG beats the other one.

Nelson is in no way associated with hcgenerate. stop pulling stuff out of your ass and making shit up to troll my board. or I will show you the door

if you want to debate this topic then step up like a man and debate it without insulting vets. have some respect

hcgenerate isn't even used for pct, and nor is hcg.. you don't even know what you are doing.. they both should be used on cycle or as a kickstart for pct. do you even understand what hcg does? if you did you wouldn't ever use it for pct... actually hcg DID NOT work for you.. because during pct it would slam your LH and FSH levels. so if you used it for that then it would of hurt your recovery, not helped! someone didn't run bloodwork or they would of known that hcg suppresses you in pct!!

 

[Shrine1]

HCG, clomid, nolva, aromasin ALL day BAby!!!!!
All the guys saying go www. blah blah.com and type in my code get 10% off and test boosters are best add them to your pct etc etc. they are SALESs Reps trying to make a few buck. also to get some free products.now watch they all gonna team up on here and start firing at me lol....

lol.. its always the guys that cant rub two nickles together who talks about sale, sale sale.. Trust me.. The whole reason you are able to even log onto this site, is because companies like N2BM and many other time tested companies have been board sponsors and pay for the site for YOU to use. GOD knows you wouldn't pay for it.

Stop having a broke man's mentality and get over the whole being used act. If you don't want to be used, stop going to work tomorrow.

 

[The Red Pill]

Okay guys, I want to add a quick disclaimer to this thread.

Like I said before, I do not want this thread to turn into a billboard for all of the sponsors of this site. At the same time, this thread was not created so that people could bash the sponsors. I have bought many things from a few of the sponsors on this site, and I have absolutely nothing to complain about. In fact, I believe that Need to Build Muscle is one of, if not the best supplement company in the game today. If you prefer a HCG, Clomid, Nolva, ect.. PCT, then let it be known. If you think an all natural PCT is the best way to get the job done, then let it be know. If you think a mixture of the two is best, THEN LET IT BE KNOWN. Just don't fill this thread with empty posts that are just there to bash or promote.

Keep it respectful, or I can see this thread getting deleted very quickly.

 

[The Red Pill]

Nelson - Like I said before, I have much respect for you. You stand behind what you say and believe, and don't change every other week when something new comes out. Also, if you did happen to make money off of Unleashed and Post Cycle, then that would not bother me a bit. You are the mastermind behind the combo, you stand behind them to the fullest, and really believe in them.

hardgainer - Both recoveries were fairly similar, I can't really say one was better than the other. They both had their pros and cons.

 

[Mia305]

Stop having a broke man's mentality and get over the whole being used act. If you don't want to be used, stop going to work tomorrow.