Nolvadex Will Not Get Rid Of Gyno

[el cubano]

I don't know where the hell you guys got this STUPID idea, but it's driving me crazy. I read 4 posts today alone from people saying that nolvadex will get rid of gyno, and one guy wanted to know why the gyno wasn't gone after 2 DAYS .

Nolvadex will NOT get rid of gyno. All it will do is stop it from getting worse, and with time, once the source of estrogen is taken away the gyno will shrink, but NEVER go away unless removed by a surgeon.

 

[Golfer18--old]

I don't know where the hell you guys got this STUPID idea, but it's driving me crazy. I read 4 posts today alone from people saying that nolvadex will get rid of gyno, and one guy wanted to know why the gyno wasn't gone after 2 DAYS .

Nolvadex will NOT get rid of gyno. All it will do is stop it from getting worse, and with time, once the source of estrogen is taken away the gyno will shrink, but NEVER go away unless removed by a surgeon.

Yeah i read them Too. When i was having my prolactin problems the gyno went down, but prolactin is different than estrogen.

 

[bigpimp]

Exactly

 

[manny78]

Now taht its a sticky we should be ok for a week with these posts, then it will start all over again......

 

[PopiChulo]

Why is this a sticky?

 

[manny78]

Why is this a sticky?

cause too may persons keep asking the same without doing a damn search.

 

[el cubano]

Why is this a sticky?

1. If you read the first post on this page you would know!
2. Because it seems like someone is spreading incorrect info around which could lead to a whole generation of "bitch titties"
3. Because I said so. J/K

 

[nandi12]

Nolvadex will NOT get rid of gyno. All it will do is stop it from getting worse, and with time, once the source of estrogen is taken away the gyno will shrink, but NEVER go away unless removed by a surgeon.

Am Surg 2000 Jan;66(1):38-40
Comparison of tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia.

Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF.

Department of Surgery, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam.

Idiopathic gynecomastia, unilateral or bilateral, is a common physical finding in normal men. Successful treatment using tamoxifen (antiestrogen) and danazol (antiandrogen) has recently been reported. We compared the efficacy of tamoxifen and danazol in the treatment of idiopathic gynecomastia. We reviewed the clinical records of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia presenting to the Department of Surgery, University of Hong Kong, between August 1990 and September 1995. Medical treatment with either tamoxifen (20 mg/d) or danazol (400 mg/d) was offered and continued until a static response was achieved. The treatment response was compared. Sixty-eight patients with idiopathic gynecomastia were seen in the Breast Clinic. The median age was 39.5 years (range, 13-82), with a median duration of symptoms of 3 months (range, 1-90). The median size was 3 cm (range, 1-7). Twenty-three patients were treated with tamoxifen and 20 with danazol.Complete resolution of the gynecomastia was recorded in 18 patients (78.2%) treated with tamoxifen, whereas only 8 patients (40%) in the danazol group had complete resolution. Five patients, all from the tamoxifen group, developed recurrence of breast mass. In conclusion, hormonal manipulation is effective in the treatment of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia. Although the effect is more marked for tamoxifen compared with danazol, the relapse rate is higher for tamoxifen. Further prospective randomized studies would be useful in defining the role of these drugs in the management of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia.

I can give you many more references to successful treatment of gyno with nolvadex, if you like. If someone is foolish enough to continue juicing until the glandular tissue becomes fibrous, then surgery is the only option.

 

[str8cubano]

Am Surg 2000 Jan;66(1):38-40
Comparison of tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia.

Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF.

Department of Surgery, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam.

Idiopathic gynecomastia, unilateral or bilateral, is a common physical finding in normal men. Successful treatment using tamoxifen (antiestrogen) and danazol (antiandrogen) has recently been reported. We compared the efficacy of tamoxifen and danazol in the treatment of idiopathic gynecomastia. We reviewed the clinical records of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia presenting to the Department of Surgery, University of Hong Kong, between August 1990 and September 1995. Medical treatment with either tamoxifen (20 mg/d) or danazol (400 mg/d) was offered and continued until a static response was achieved. The treatment response was compared. Sixty-eight patients with idiopathic gynecomastia were seen in the Breast Clinic. The median age was 39.5 years (range, 13-82), with a median duration of symptoms of 3 months (range, 1-90). The median size was 3 cm (range, 1-7). Twenty-three patients were treated with tamoxifen and 20 with danazol.Complete resolution of the gynecomastia was recorded in 18 patients (78.2%) treated with tamoxifen, whereas only 8 patients (40%) in the danazol group had complete resolution. Five patients, all from the tamoxifen group, developed recurrence of breast mass. In conclusion, hormonal manipulation is effective in the treatment of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia. Although the effect is more marked for tamoxifen compared with danazol, the relapse rate is higher for tamoxifen. Further prospective randomized studies would be useful in defining the role of these drugs in the management of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia.

I can give you many more references to successful treatment of gyno with nolvadex, if you like. If someone is foolish enough to continue juicing until the glandular tissue becomes fibrous, then surgery is the only option.

nice post

 

[WormAAA77]

hahah. very nice nandi.

 

[joeyz123]

OOOHHHHHHHHH And he breaks out the medical study results

Smooth brother, smooth.

 

[spentagn]

That is a good post. But notice the higher recurrence rate in the tamoxifen subjects, as well.

 

[winstrol69]

BITCH SLAPPED!

 

[kbrkbr]

That's gotta hurt. And why? "Because I said so."

 

[el cubano]

Am Surg 2000 Jan;66(1):38-40
Comparison of tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia.

Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF.

Department of Surgery, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Pokfulam.

Idiopathic gynecomastia, unilateral or bilateral, is a common physical finding in normal men. Successful treatment using tamoxifen (antiestrogen) and danazol (antiandrogen) has recently been reported. We compared the efficacy of tamoxifen and danazol in the treatment of idiopathic gynecomastia. We reviewed the clinical records of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia presenting to the Department of Surgery, University of Hong Kong, between August 1990 and September 1995. Medical treatment with either tamoxifen (20 mg/d) or danazol (400 mg/d) was offered and continued until a static response was achieved. The treatment response was compared. Sixty-eight patients with idiopathic gynecomastia were seen in the Breast Clinic. The median age was 39.5 years (range, 13-82), with a median duration of symptoms of 3 months (range, 1-90). The median size was 3 cm (range, 1-7). Twenty-three patients were treated with tamoxifen and 20 with danazol.Complete resolution of the gynecomastia was recorded in 18 patients (78.2%) treated with tamoxifen, whereas only 8 patients (40%) in the danazol group had complete resolution. Five patients, all from the tamoxifen group, developed recurrence of breast mass. In conclusion, hormonal manipulation is effective in the treatment of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia. Although the effect is more marked for tamoxifen compared with danazol, the relapse rate is higher for tamoxifen. Further prospective randomized studies would be useful in defining the role of these drugs in the management of patients with idiopathic gynecomastia.

I can give you many more references to successful treatment of gyno with nolvadex, if you like. If someone is foolish enough to continue juicing until the glandular tissue becomes fibrous, then surgery is the only option.

Actually, I'm not trying to slam you, but that is a bullshit study. Where did you get it from? Either way, notice the recurrence thus meaning that it did NOT get rid of the gyno . It also doesn't state if the gyno came about naturally or not. 3cm is big, very big for gyno. To big to believe that surgery is NOT the only course of action to take.

And for the rest of you who only read the bold print

When I post stuff I am speaking from personal knowledge. I've been using for over 12yrs and know many, many people who have gotten gyno. I've seen people use nolvadex out the ass and yes the gyno got small enough that it wasn't noticeable (which is probably what they really mean above) but the second they touch test again, boom, bitch titties all over again.

The only way to truly get rid of gyno is to have the tissue removed.

 

[el cubano]

I just want to emphasize, if you are prone to gyno nolvadex will not cure it. It will not get rid of it. It will make it shrink but the very next time you touch dbol or test it will flair back up.

I've also spoken to my doc about gyno before and he said that there are only two resolutions to gyno in men, remove the source of estrogen or surgery. He said that there are no drugs that he knows of that will CURE gyno.

Also, another side note on nolvadex, over a year ago it was declared a possible carcinogen, which is why most doc's are pushing the further development of other drugs like arimidex and femara.

 

[el cubano]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FDA approves tamoxifen for reducing breast cancer risk
October 29, 1998
Web posted at: 3:09 p.m. EDT (1909 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Food and Drug Administration on Wednesday approved the drug tamoxifen for reducing the risk of breast cancer in women at high risk for the disease.

Last March, a clinical trial by the National Cancer Institute was stopped early because researchers said there was sufficient evidence the tamoxifen reduced the chance of getting breast cancer by 44 percent.

However, the drug is not without side effects. The FDA said caution must be used in prescribing the drug because of its potentially serious side effects, including endometrial cancer and risk of blood clots which could lead to a stroke.

The FDA said the drug, manufactured by Zeneca Pharmaceuticals, Inc. of Wilmington, Delaware, is only for women at very high risk.

 

[el cubano]

As valuable as tamoxifen is to some patients, FDA strongly advises women and their doctors to carefully weight the benefits and risks of tamoxifen before patients use the drug," said FDA acting commissioner Michael Friedman, a cancer specialist.

Diana Zuckerman of the National Women's Health Network said she is very concerned that otherwise healthy women, who may never get cancer, could die from a stroke or endometrial cancer, a rare form of uterine cancer, because of the drug's side effects.

She said she is also concerned that the doctors who will be prescribing the medicine for protection will not be oncologists, but internists and general practitioners -- doctors who don't have a lot of experience with the drug.

The National Cancer Institute announced last week a massive breast cancer study that will compare tamoxifen with the osteoporosis drug raloxifen to see if raloxifen will prevent breast cancer with fewer side effects.

 

[el cubano]

Now with all these side effects they are finding with use in women, who is to tell what it is doing to us men, besides some bogus studies done in Hong Kong????

 

[el cubano]

But................ READ THE LAST LINE CAREFULLY (US study)

04/02/2001 - Updated 03:15 PM ET


Tamoxifen touted for men's heart disease

By Steve Sternberg, USA TODAY

The breast cancer drug tamoxifen may protect men from heart disease, just as estrogen lowers a woman's risk, new research indicates.

The drug appears to dilate blood vessels, boosting blood flow. It also cuts the amount of artery-clogging fats in the blood, reports Sarah Clarke of Papworth Hospital in Britain and colleagues at Cambridge University.

The findings "strongly support" larger trials of tamoxifen and its chemical cousin raloxifene for the treatment of men with coronary artery disease, the team recently reported in Circulation.

Tamoxifen and raloxifene are estrogen-like drugs that block receptors for natural estrogen — a hormone crucial to a woman's reproductive health.

Natural estrogen speeds tumor growth, but, paradoxically, also protects women from heart disease, a discovery that in the 1960s led doctors to try it in men.

That study ended disastrously.

Men who took estrogen suffered more heart attacks and deaths than those who didn't, perhaps because doctors prescribed five times the dose given to women. That was the last time doctors tested estrogen in men with heart disease.

In the '90s, studies in 3,000 women from Scotland and Sweden found tamoxifen reduced heart attack and death rates by 30% to 70%. A study of raloxifene's impact on heart disease is now underway in women.

Clarke and her team decided to carry out a small-scale study of tamoxifen in men to test their hypothesis that the drug also would lower heart-disease risk in men. The 56-day trial represents a rare reversal of the usual pattern in which drugs tested first in men are tried in women.

Doctors enrolled 31 men in the study. All took aspirin and cholesterol-lowering drugs. Sixteen were given tamoxifen. Tamoxifen also was given to a third group of 10 men with chest pain but no evidence of clogged arteries.

The researchers tested blood samples for a variety of blood fats that raise heart disease risk, including cholesterol and triglycerides.

Researchers also used ultrasound to measure the diameter of an artery in the arm. They found that estrogen dilated the volunteers' arteries and reduced their blood-fat levels.

Rita Redberg of the University of California-San Francisco cautioned that artery measurements of this type won't reveal whether the tamoxifen can actually prevent heart attacks or deaths.

Only studies following thousands of men for several years can do that, Redberg says.

"Tamoxifen is a drug we should look at in (large-scale) clinical trials," she says, adding, "I'd look at estrogen before I'd look at tamoxifen," because estrogen has twice the cholesterol-lowering potency of its synthetic cousins.

Giving estrogen to men at the standard dose given to women has a much broader margin of safety than the high-dose trial carried out in the '60s, Redberg says.

"No one has ever looked at estrogen in men at the doses we use in women," she notes.

 

[el cubano]

Here's a much more trusted study for you.


MONTREAL, QC -- July 12, 2001 -- Doctors in Canada, have determined that both tamoxifen and raloxifene can be used to treat pre-pubertal gynecomastia.

This condition, an excessive development of male breasts, occurs in up to 65 percent of young boys and may be deemed clinically significant in 10-15 percent.

While the condition resolves spontaneously in approximately 90 percent of cases over a three year period, the psychological and emotional impact in the meantime can be devastating for these young patients.

The investigators, headed by Dr. Sarah Muirhead, an associate professor of medicine at the University of Ottawa and staff endocrinologist at Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario (CHEO), presented these findings yesterday (July 11th, 2001) at the 6th joint meeting of the Lawson Wilkins Pediatric Endocrine Society and the European Society for Paediatric Endocrinology (ESPE), in collaboration with the Australasian Paediatric Endocrine Group, the Japanese Society for Pediatric Endocrinology, and the Latin American Society for Paediatric Endocrinology held in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

The tamoxifen/raloxifene breakthrough is significant because surgery used to be the only management option. Previous attempts to manage the condition medically by altering the testosterone/estrogen ratio have only been partially effective and have included such drugs as danazol (normally used to treat endometriosis), aromatase inhibitors, and dihydro-testosterone.

Tamoxifen is a competitive inhibitor of estrogen binding in the breast, whereas raloxifene is a selective estrogen receptor modulator, the investigators explained.

In the study, 14 subjects received tamoxifen 10-20 mg/day for three to six months, while nine subjects received 60 mg/day of raloxifene for three to six months. A group of 13 received no medications and were used as a control group.

The mean age of these boys was 14 years, and all were of normal body mass index. Those who received tamoxifen had had the condition for a mean period of 18.9 months, while those randomized to raloxifene had the condition for an average of 37.2 months.

Both of these estrogen receptor blockers were effective in treating gynecomastia, although the response was greater for raloxifene. In the tamoxifen group, the mean nodule size was 4.6 cm before treatment and 2.1 cm post-treatment, for a reduction in size of 56 percent.

In the raloxifene group, pre-treatment nodule size was 4.9 cm and post-treatment size was 1.6 cm -- a reduction in size of 73 percent. It was not stated over what period of time these changes occurred.

The investigators report that overall, 91 percent of the subjects showed a positive response. These results were especially encouraging given that the subjects had had the condition for extended periods of time, and given that the breast nodules were large. It was also encouraging that no side effects were seen in either group of patients, including to liver function.

Despite the safety of the drug and the seemingly impressive results seen here, Dr. Muirhead and her group caution that, due to the lack of follow-up in untreated patients, it is not clear whether treatment was more effective than observation alone. To resolve that question, a larger, randomized, placebo-controlled trial using raloxifene has been planned, she said.


Note, it did NOT cure gyno.

 

[el cubano]

And yet some more info from a more reliable source.

Ask the Medical Experts - Treatment for Gynecomastia
June 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. I am an 18-year-old male, and have had gynecomastia since I was 12. In these six years, I have only been offered only two options: an expensive surgical procedure or "living with it." I did some research of my own, and heard that certain anti-estrogens, like Teslac, have proved effective in reducing the breast tissue. Why has this not been presented as a treatment alternative? Can a physician prescribe these drugs? It just seems like a better option than cutting open my chest.

A. Gynecomastia, enlargement of the male breast tissue, is quite common, especially in adolescence, the obese and in older men. It usually is benign without a clear cause (idiopathic). In a small percentage of cases, there can be other causes such as tumors of the adrenal gland, testicles or pituitary gland. Certain drugs such as Tagamet, estrogen, Valium and alcohol can cause gynecomastia. I assume you have been evaluated by your doctor for such other causes, and likely, none were found.

The treatment for idiopathic gynecomastia usually does involve making a decision between leaving it alone or surgery to remove the excess breast tissue. There have been some studies looking at drugs that block estrogen production or that block estrogen receptors, such as Teslac (testolactone) and Tamoxifen. These drugs do seem to have some beneficial effects in reducing gynecomastia, but they also can have adverse effects such as hypertension (increased blood pressure) with Teslac, and increasing the risk of blood clots with Tamoxifen. Neither of these drugs are FDA approved for treatment of gynecomastia. In fact, in the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference), Teslac is contraindicated in the treatment of Breast Cancer in Males. I believe more studies would be needed to prove the effectiveness and safety of these drugs in treatment of gynecomastia before they should be FDA approved.

In summary, I would not recommend either of the above prescription drugs for treatment of gynecomastia. Certainly, measures such as trying to obtain ideal body weight and avoiding alcohol are recommended. However, the final choice in management was pretty well summed up by you; learning to accept it versus surgical treatment.

I really like the last paragraph on this one.

 

[el cubano]

Check out this kids gyno!!!!!!!!!

 

[el cubano]

Here's some info my health care provider just emailed me.

Gynecomastia, which translates to “female breast”, is a condition in which firm breast tissue forms in males. The breasts enlarge and may become tender. This enlargement may be present on one or both sides. Most of the time the enlargement is on both sides and the amount of enlargement can vary widely. The most severe cases may have an increase to a C or D cup size. Some men or boys have fat on their chest that makes them appear as if they have breasts. This is not the same as gynecomastia. This is called pseudogynecomastia (false gynecomastia).
What causes gynecomastia?

This condition is usually caused by changes in hormone levels. Gynecomastia may occur at puberty or as part of the aging process when the activity of the testes begins to decrease. Gynecomastia is most common during puberty. As many as 65% of 14 year-old boys have this condition and 90% of teenage boys have total regression (it completely goes away) in about 18 months to three years without any treatment.

Gynecomastia may be caused by changes in the balance of estrogen and testosterone. During puberty, there may be a temporary lag in the production of testosterone behind that of estrogen resulting in breast development. Furthermore, men who are undergoing treatment for prostate or testicular cancer, for example, may be given estrogen as part of their treatment. The majority of these men receiving estrogen will develop gynecomastia.

Use of estrogens and androgens for body building purposes as well as marijuana use can result in gynecomastia. In rare cases, this condition can be caused by prescription medication side effects, chronic liver disease, genetic disorders, and tumors.

Is this breast cancer?

Probably not. Breast cancer is very rare in males. Although there have been no reported cases of breast cancer resulting from gynecomastia, there have been 2 case reports of gynecomastia with atypical changes. This suggests that it may be possible for these atypical changes to progress to cancer. The biggest problem lies in that it may be difficult to decide if the changes are caused only by the condition of gynecomastia or if there is a breast cancer. Both conditions may cause masses under the areola and pain and tenderness. It is important to remember that these symptoms are more common with gynecomastia. If your healthcare provider questions the possibility of cancer, he/she may ask you to have a mammogram and/or a biopsy.

How is gynecomastia treated?

Most of the time there is no treatment needed. Your healthcare provider may have you come in every few months to measure the size of the breasts. If medications or illegal drugs are being used that may be causing this condition, the healthcare provider may have you stop taking these medications/drugs. Sometimes, if tenderness is a significant problem, you may be given medications to help the extra breast tissue go away. On rare occasions, surgery may be needed to remove the extra breast tissue.

If surgery is needed, the incision is usually placed just inside the areolar (colored area around the nipple) border. This helps to hide the surgical scar. The glandular tissue is removed and in some cases, liposuction is used to remove some of the fatty tissue that surrounds the ductal tissue.

What are the emotional impacts?

Gynecomastia is a significant source of embarrassment of teenage boys. They are usually reluctant to discuss their concerns and are likely to try and hide their appearance under clothing. They may try to avoid gym classes, athletic activities, swimming, or beach activities. Dr. Susan Love, in her book Dr. Susan Love’s Breast Book (1995 Published by Addison Wesley), describes a 7th grade boy who was so humiliated with his gynecomastia that he paid another boy to push him into the swimming pool so that he didn’t have to take off his shirt to swim. This also avoided the need for him to explain why he was swimming with his shirt on.

This side effect of genital cancer treatment in the older men can be very disturbing as well. It is important to contact your healthcare provider if you or someone you know is experiencing these changes. There may be treatment available to help. And remember this is not that uncommon.

 

[el cubano]

And yet more info.


GYNECOMASTIA
During puberty, enlargement of the male breast is normal and is usually transient. Similar changes may occur during senescence. Gynecomastia in both sexes may be caused by various diseases (especially of the liver), by drug therapy (eg, estrogens, reserpine, digitalis, isoniazid, spironolactone, Ca channel blockers, ketoconazole, theophylline, cimetidine, metronidazole, methadone, antineoplastic drugs), by marijuana use, and, less commonly, by endocrine disorders. Ultrasonography of the testis can detect estrogen-secreting testicular tumors, and CT or MRI of the abdomen can detect estrogen-secreting adrenal tumors.

Gynecomastia may be unilateral or bilateral. Most of the enlargement is usually due to proliferation of stroma, not of breast ducts. The patient may experience some tenderness, which is generally associated with benign causes. In most cases, no specific treatment is needed because gynecomastia remits or disappears after the drug is withdrawn or the underlying disorder is treated. Hormonal therapies have not been validated. Surgical removal of the excess breast tissue (eg, suction lipectomy alone or with cosmetic surgery) is occasionally the only effective treatment.

 

[nandi12]

Now with all these side effects they are finding with use in women, who is to tell what it is doing to us men, besides some bogus studies done in Hong Kong????

Postgrad Med 1991 Feb 1;89(2):191-3

Gynecomastia. A bothersome but readily treatable problem.
Jacobs MB.
Division of General Internal Medicine, Stanford University School of Medicine, CA 94305-5320.

Although breast enlargement in boys and men can cause both psychological and physical distress, the disorder is rarely serious and is readily treatable. Several factors can lead to the estrogenic excess that causes growth of breast tissue. Dr Jacobs describes a patient with gynecomastia related to cirrhosis of the liver who responded promptly to a brief course of tamoxifen citrate therapy..


Urology 1997 Dec;50(6):929-33
Tamoxifen for flutamide/finasteride-induced gynecomastia.
Staiman VR, Lowe FC.
Department of Urology, St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, NY 10019, USA.

OBJECTIVES: Current therapies for advanced prostate carcinoma lead to a marked decrease in serum testosterone levels, which renders patients impotent. In preliminary studies, combination therapy with flutamide and finasteride has been used as an alternative therapy for the treatment of prostate carcinoma because potency can be preserved. Both of these agents can cause gynecomastia and breast/nipple tenderness. METHODS: Six men being treated for advanced prostate carcinoma with flutamide/finasteride combination therapy developed painful gynecomastia, which was treated with tamoxifen 10 to 30 mg/day for 1 month. Clinical follow-up included breast measurements and determination of prostate-specific antigen (PSA), testosterone, and estradiol levels. RESULTS: While on this
combination therapy for prostate carcinoma, 4 of 6 patients experienced a decrease in PSA level to less than 0.5 ng/mL. All patients remained potent. Serum testosterone increased in each patient who had a baseline level drawn. Estradiol levels were noted to be elevated in 4 of 6 patients at the time of evaluation for gynecomastia. After treatment with tamoxifen, circulating estradiol levels increased in 3 patients from 1.3 to 2.2 times the baseline level. .Five patients experienced complete resolution of breast and nipple pain on tamoxifen 10 mg/day within the first month. The other patient had to be treated with 30 mg/day for 1 additional month, which subsequently resulted in pain resolution. . CONCLUSIONS: These preliminary results suggest that low-dose tamoxifen is useful in treating painful gynecomastia for those patients on flutamide/finasteride combination therapy for advanced prostate carcinoma.


Dtsch Med Wochenschr 1984 Nov 2;109(44):1678-82

[Testosterone and estradiol levels in male gynecomastia. Clinical and endocrine findings during treatment with tamoxifen]

[Article in German]

Eversmann T, Moito J, von Werder K.

Oestradiol-(E2) levels in serum were significantly higher in a group of 91 males with gynaecomastia than in a control group. The levels were highest in patients with testicular tumour, hyperprolactinaemia and idiopathic gynaecomastia. In gynaecomastia of puberty and primary or secondary hypogonadism, the E2 level was within normal limits, but the testosterone/oestradiol ratio was significantly reduced. Tamoxifen, at a daily dose of 20 mg, was administered over 2-4 months to 16 patients with gynaecomastia. Of twelve patients with painful gynaecomastia ten became painfree. .Gynaecomastia regressed partially or completely in 14 patients, in only 2 was it unchanged. There was no recurrence of gynaecomastia after discontinuing tamoxifen. Side-effects did not occur. It is concluded that tamoxifen is a promising alternative to the surgical treatment of gynaecomastia.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made.

BTW, I guess I should throw out my tren because it "does not have FDA approval for use in humans" and has some side effects.

 

[el cubano]

Now if you've read some of the studies and posts I've put up you would realize that for every one of your posts I can make a post disputing it. It's just nonsense. Plus, I also stated I am speaking from my own experience also. You can post these studies til you are blue in the face, the complete resolution is not true because once you have gyno you will always have it, meaning that you will always have to use nolvadex, arimidex or femara to combat it while on a cycle. And just because you use nolvadex and it SHRINKS to where it is not noticeable doesn't mean that it won't come back later without even using steroids, as stated in several of my studies. Also, none of your studies mention anything about follow up studies either.

 

[el cubano]

Also, even in your own last post, it states that it did not get rid of gyno. Your article states "Gynaecomastia regressed" and "complete resolution of breast and nipple pain". Never does it say it got rid of gyno.

Also, nolvadex is approved by the FDA dummy. Why don't you try not only reading my posts, but your own too.

 

[el cubano]

I'd like to add, I think that you are very confused. I am not telling people not to use nolvadex. I definitely believe nolvadex is necessary, I'm just letting people know that it will NOT cure gyno. Nothing but surgery will cure gyno. Nolvadex simply controls it.

 

[2000maximaSE]

Good post bro. There is a lot of misunderstanding over the whole concept.

-Pfieff

 

[nooleaph]

Quick question... a little of hte subject. I am taking
Deca @ 400mg/week 1-8wks
Anavar @ 40mg/week 1-8wks

I was going to follow up 3 weeks after my cycle with Clomid therapy starting on my 11th week at

Clomid @ 50mg/day 11-13wks

I read this which totally changes everything;

""It should also be noted that clomid, arimidex, proviron, nolvadex, and other "anti-estrogens" will not combat progesterone induced gyno."

"The new "abortion pill" RU-486, which basically works by blocking progesterone, is also starting to be used to combat progesterone induced gyno."

...So basically the clomid would do nothing but help my testies start to pump out the test, but would have no effect on deca endouced gyno?

 

[Audio8]

...So basically the clomid would do nothing but help my testies start to pump out the test, but would have no effect on deca endouced gyno? [/B]

Clomid is only a weak anti-estrogen..it's main purpose is to restore your HPT axis. And yes, it has no effect on pro-gyno, like every other anti-e.

 

[nandi12]

There is a lot of misunderstanding over the whole concept.

A lot of misunderstanding arises from the inappropriate use of words like "cure" and "disease" when talking about gyno. Gyno is really a symptom of some underlying physiological abnormality, like excess estrogen. It is inaccurate to talk about "curing" gyno. One talks about "treating" the symptoms of a disease, but "curing" the underlying disease itself.

For example, if gyno is caused by an estrogen secreting tumor, the gyno can be treated with tamoxifen or raloxifene, but unless the underlying problem (the tumor) is removed, the gyno will most likely return once treatment is stopped.

If the gyno is caused by anabolic steroids, the gyno can treated, but unless steroids are stopped, it will return.

Regression of gyno can mean partial or complete, just like with cancer. But again, like with cancer, the gyno may or may not return once treatment is stopped.

Drug induced gyno will regress, disappear, go away, or however you want to say it, once the drug is stopped, unless, as I mentioned in my original post, fibrosis has replaced ductal hyperplasia. Once that happens, surgery is the only effective treatment. Tamoxifen or raloxifene would undoubtedly speed up the recovery process after stoping steroids and ease the pain and tenderness associated with the gyno.

 

[el cubano]

If nolvadex "gets rid" of gyno, then why would you worry about it coming back the next time you take test? Why do people speak of their gyno "flaring up" during a cycle if it should have been gone after there last nolvdex therapy? Just think about it, it is BB common sense. If nolvadex "got rid" of gyno everyone would take it once and be done with it. But that's not the case.

Nandi12, you are right, nolvadex will speed up the process of the enlarged breast tissue shrinkage (lol), but when these people write that nolvadex is supposed to get rid of gyno, I just want them to know that if you are prone to gyno it will come back on your next cycle, unless you use nolvadex again. Yes, we, as BB's misuse the term gyno, but it has become SLANG in the BB world and that is why we CAN misuse the word.

If you are prone to gyno you will always be prone to gyno, unless you have ALL the tissue removed. Nolvadex will only control the "proneness".

 

[nandi12]

when these people write that nolvadex is supposed to get rid of gyno, I just want them to know that if you are prone to gyno it will come back on your next cycle, unless you use nolvadex again.

I agree 100%, el cubano. That cannot be emphasized strongly enough. You have done an excellent job putting that point across in your posts.

BTW, I did not know that raloxifene was superior to nolvadex, and that is very valuable information for all of us. Thanks.

 

[kbrkbr]

Damn, I love this board. Nothing like a lively debate! Great work everyone.

 

[kiwibrian]

i used tomoxifien some years ago when doing every cycle and i still got bitch tits ...... had to have a operation to remove $ 1000

kiwibrian

 

[gurupimp6969]

This is what I am talking about. Some good old Elite studys against studys Good info guys.

 

[Lumberg]

OK. We know that Nolvaldex and arimidex/femara can help prevent and possibly treat(to a small degree) estrogen-induced gyno. What is the standard prevention or treatment for prgesterone-induced gyno? And are there any other causes of gyno besides estrogen and progeesterone?

JC

 

[el cubano]

OK. We know that Nolvaldex and arimidex/femara can help prevent and possibly treat(to a small degree) estrogen-induced gyno. What is the standard prevention or treatment for prgesterone-induced gyno? And are there any other causes of gyno besides estrogen and progeesterone?

JC

If you read the studies posted most adolescent gyno is caused by a liver condition.

 

[Delinquent]

Very good thread

 

[panerai]

I don't understand, how come, nowdays, some people get gyno?
Well, I do, but, if they have enough brains to learn how to use computer, how come they can't learn how to prepare themself properly for use of AAS?

 

[PaPaPumPPP]

I just want to emphasize, if you are prone to gyno nolvadex will not cure it. It will not get rid of it. It will make it shrink but the very next time you touch dbol or test it will flair back up.
.

Well, I got a plan. How about fuck dbol, and test and stick with highly anabolic drugs such as... drum roll please....EQ (I know it's androgenic, but VERY mild, and unless running a gram+, you are prety damn safe from not getting symptoms. Deca, prog....if that even causes gyno, is not from estrogenic receptors...or at least that is what we all preach. Anavar, holy shit, unless you are getting Foo Chow's you should be straight as an arrow on never getting G at basically any dose. Primo...need I say more? Winstrol, no chance. GH. Slin. That is kind of a selection if you see what I'm getting at. If it is POSSIBLE, of getting rid of gyno, or at least reducing size with the use of nolva...shit, why not reduce them mo'fuckers, and stay the hell away from highly androgenic drugs?? Yes, gains might not be as DRAMATIC, but hey...I'll take 10 lbs a cycle with no boobys than 30 lbs along with a set of titties.



Just my two sense. If someone has posted something similar to this, I'm sorry, as I only read up to the point where I read el cubanos quote.

I'm not trying to 'attack' you cubano, just stating my opinion. I hope you can respect that. Thanks man.

 

[WormAAA77]

Well, I got a plan. How about fuck dbol, and test and stick with highly anabolic drugs such as... drum roll please....EQ (I know it's androgenic, but VERY mild, and unless running a gram+, you are prety damn safe from not getting symptoms. Deca, prog....if that even causes gyno, is not from estrogenic receptors...or at least that is what we all preach. Anavar, holy shit, unless you are getting Foo Chow's you should be straight as an arrow on never getting G at basically any dose. Primo...need I say more? Winstrol, no chance. GH. Slin. That is kind of a selection if you see what I'm getting at. If it is POSSIBLE, of getting rid of gyno, or at least reducing size with the use of nolva...shit, why not reduce them mo'fuckers, and stay the hell away from highly androgenic drugs?? Yes, gains might not be as DRAMATIC, but hey...I'll take 10 lbs a cycle with no boobys than 30 lbs along with a set of titties.



Just my two sense. If someone has posted something similar to this, I'm sorry, as I only read up to the point where I read el cubanos quote.

I'm not trying to 'attack' you cubano, just stating my opinion. I hope you can respect that. Thanks man.

Or just use the proper dosage of anastrozole, letrozole, aromasin. Like Panerai said, no one should get E induced gyno if they have half a brain.

 

[Lumberg]

If you read the studies posted most adolescent gyno is caused by a liver condition.

I meant reasons relateed to AS usage. And the liver disorder might lead to either elevated estrogen or progesterone.

JC

 

[el cubano]

I meant reasons relateed to AS usage. And the liver disorder might lead to either elevated estrogen or progesterone.

JC

AS can cause the liver condition too. There's also K... syndrome in which you see false gyno. But other than E and P, don't know anything else????

 

[boss]

ok with all this said, what is the best way to go into a cycle to prevent any onset of gyno? proviron? novaldex? ameridex (sp)? tell me please..........

 

[el cubano]

arimidex would be the best to prevent it, nolvdex is the best once it sets in

 

[boss]

arimidex would be the best to prevent it, nolvdex is the best once it sets in

what about proviron?

 

[nooleaph]

I understand that liver problems can enduce gyno, but his question was. Are there any other drugs besides the R-48 abortion pill or whatever its called that block progesterone. As Nolvadex, Armidex, Clomid , whatever doesnt help to stop progesterone induced gyno. Thanks, Dan

 

[promet1]

Very good data Cubano !!!

 

[el cubano]

Proviron is good too. I believe that it also blocks progesterone, but that's not a confirmed fact. I just listed the proven good drugs.

 

[WormAAA77]

Letrozole and Aromasin are superior to anastrozole.

 

[Shane]

I don't care what any of you say I had the puffy nips the itching and a lump. Started poping the nolva and it all went away.

 

[bigfatty]

bump

Is the ru486 abortion pill the only means of controlling proestrogene?

 

[nooleaph]

bigfatty bump

Is the ru486 abortion pill the only means of controlling proestrogene? ----------

So basically from everthing I've read...... Yes priveron and winstrol are "believed" to block progesterone induced gyno but nothing is proven.... sux but what I've also read is 400mgs/wk of Deca should cause much of a problem. But then again everyone is different.

 

[Lumberg]

Letrozole and Aromasin are superior to anastrozole.

Yes but are they as readily available and cheap as liquidex/arimidex?

JC

 

[HEALTHFREAK]

Endometrial cancer occurs only in women, in the lining of the uterus, I dont believe guys will have to worry about that one. Although, studies will never be done as to what types of cancer it can cause in men i.e. prostate or testicle, because the drugs sole purpose is to treat a female condition.

Does anyone know if arimidex can cure or help existing gyno, copmared to nolvadex?

 

[gtaman]

Why is el cubano still a mod?

He is confrontational at every turn.

Seems like he must start an argument to feel whole.

 

[mvmaxx]

I don't like the name of this thread. I think it can confuse people that Nolvadex will not "help" to "reduce" gyno, which is totally incorrect.

El Cubano and nandi12 had some great posts but I think El Cubano is getting hung up on the "get rid of" part. Yes, I totally agree that those who are susceptible to gyno and have it "reduced" by Nolvadex will still have to worry about it come next cycle. However, the fact is Nolvadex can get you to a point where it's no longer noticeable which is most people's goal. As LoneAZ as stated, even with surgery removing the gland, gyno can reoccur. So I guess surgery doesn't really "get rid of gyno" either.

All I can go by is personal experience. I can read medical reports all day long but at the end of the day it's experience that shows how this situation relates to you.

My story: I had childhood gyno and felt that it had gotten worse in the middle of my 3rd week of my dbol/sust/decca cycle.
Note: there were no gyno symptoms (itchiness, irritability, swelling, etc). I just felt around and all of a sudden holy fuck my childhood gyno had gotten worse.
Another note: I was on .50mg/ED of Liquidex and bumped it to 1mg/ED. I then started Nolvadex 40mg/ED in week 4. It is now week 7 and I just noticed this morning that it's back to the original size that it was pre cycle. Yes, I may eventually get surgery till completely remove it and then be very cautious in the type of gear I continue to take, but for the meantime I'm just stoked that it has "reduced" so much.

My 3cents

 

[jecterF10]

If you have never had gyno.. And say you take nolvadex periodically throughout the cycle.
Nolvadex blocks the receptors, right? Would that help not to get gyno. Or is it just not recommended cause it hinders gains?

Thanks,
Jec

 

[Bigboy555]

Dammmmmmmmnnnnnnnn......El Cubano got shotttt dowwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

wha wha

bb555 peace

 

[speedDemon]

got that right ,it will not get rid of gyno..............period!!

 

[NitroCBR]

What if you pair up Nolvadex with Proviron ? Would that be more effective ?

 

[nooleaph]

He's not starting an arguement he's bringing up a very good point. Constructive critisizm. Read and Learn.

 

[cody929]

BUMP!

 

[cccp]

What if you pair up Nolvadex with Proviron ? Would that be more effective ?

Yes, it would be very effective. Proviron will prevent aromatising, and nolvadex will block the estrogen receptors. Kind of a double protection. You could take 25mg of prov and 20mg nolva every day. The only problem is that proviron will diminish the anabolic effects of the juice, because it also acts like a steroid and blocks androgenic receptors. So I would cut it's use to a minimum.

 

[cccp]

BUMP!

what a loon. why in the world would you want to "bump" a "sticky"?????? lol

 

[nandi12]

Yes, it would be very effective. Proviron will prevent aromatising, and nolvadex will block the estrogen receptors. Kind of a double protection. You could take 25mg of prov and 20mg nolva every day. The only problem is that proviron will diminish the anabolic effects of the juice, because it also acts like a steroid and blocks androgenic receptors. So I would cut it's use to a minimum.

There has never been a study in any peer reviewed medical or scientific journal even remotely suggesting Proviron acts as an antiaromatase. This is a myth.

Proviron actually binds much more strongly to the androgen receptor in skeletal muscle that many steroids, including winstrol and dbol.

Proviron also binds exceptionally strongly to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, displacing test that can then circulate freely.

 

[Lumberg]

Proviron also binds exceptionally strongly to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, displacing test that can then circulate freely.

I have heard ZMA does the same thing.

JC

 

[HULKSTER]

To make absolutely sure that gyno doesn't get a foothold in during my dbol cycle, should I start taking Nolvadex while on cycle, instead of waiting until after my cycle is complete?

 

[monitor]

el cubano

You obviously know your stuff but I'll point out 2 things:

1.) Men don't have an endometrium and so can't contract endometrial cancer.
2.) FDA approval for the use of tamoxifen in breast ca was back in the 90's, since then the use of tamoxifen has become 1st line treatment for breast CA (apart from surgery) and is extensively used also for palliative care.

It's interesting that tamoxifen isn't curative for gyno though. Would people recommending taking it prophylactically? and not wait for symptoms.