ninjitsu

[hub5326]

Not fucking around but wondered if anyone on the board has studied?

Knew a dude when I lived in San Diego that studied with Hatsumi over in Japan.

hub5326

 

[ManOfArms]

Not fucking around but wondered if anyone on the board has studied?

Knew a dude when I lived in San Diego that studied with Hatsumi over in Japan.

hub5326

I always wonders what others who studies this form of martial arts thought about it. In the 80's it was very popular, back then there were a few fake studios claiming to teach this style, so I never really met anyone who actually studied the real thing.

There were also a lot of fakes who claimed to study with Hatsumi in japan, or when he was in the states training with one of his american student (name excapes me) who actually was the first american grand master..

 

[hub5326]

Steven Hayes was the supposed first American but there was much controversy surrounding the subject.

The little I have studied the art it has many useful applications and a true fighting art. My favorite thing about the art though is the movement and use of balance. The art in general though seems incorporate many other styles and movements.
hub5326

 

[DANABOLIC55]

I had three students of ninjitsu come into my Jeet Kune dO class. They had decent ground skills but nothing to brag about. The rest of their stuff was pretty bad. My youngest student out boxed and out clinched their oldest dude to the point where i had to stop it
they all stayed around but one of them until I closed my school>

 

[luxury]

watch UFC 2 for the effectiveness of ninjitsu.

that is all

 

[hub5326]

Agreed about UFC 2...

I think in general UFC, Pride, ect have proven that any one discipline is useless. In the beginning ground skills proved to be the best tactic when only a few understood them but now that everyone seems to posess decent ground skills, things have gone back to stand up or ground and pound. My goal in training has always been to study everything I can to find the most effective tools for me.
hub5326

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

ufc 2 was a joke fellas. steve jennum even talked about how he had been studying bjj some to familiarize himself with the ground game . i'm not taking away from what he did, but the ufc was in its infancy at the time so there was not much skill involved compared to today's standards. with the exception of royce and shamrock the first three ufc's were not all that in terms of real competition. however ufc 4 and beyond is a different story. i actually used to have a guy that trained bjj with me who trained in ninjiutsu, he admitted it was pretty damn weak, but he did enjoy working with the weapons aspect of it, which seemed to be the focus of the art. by no means am i meaning disrespect any practitioners of the art, there just is not much substance involved in the art, and it has no usefulness in mma competition either.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

UFC 2 yep! I've seen it. That nijitsu guy got KILLED by a Muay Thai guy. Elbow strikes to the head KNocked him out, the fight lasted less than 2 minutes I think.

 

[AlwaysOn]

from what I understand the ninja were a special class of samurai's who were never understood. I would think any ninja martial art is bogus aka fabrication

 

[digger]

from what I understand the ninja were a special class of samurai's who were never understood. I would think any ninja martial art is bogus aka fabrication

Not exactly. If you know about feudalism (Lords, knights, peasants) the samurai were the equivalent of European knights. Because of the cost to arm and armor them, they were quite literally the equivalent of today's army tanks. A samurai could lose his master and become a 'ronin' but it would be almost impossible for him to fall so far down the social ladder that he would become a ninja.

That's because ninjas were an entirely different social caste, almost like the Indian "untouchables." Many of them were literally outhouse cleaners. Because they had no social standing, they could go places no one else would go and do things that were literally unthinkable to the rest of society. (Example: Hide in an outhouse, right down in the raw waste, and stab your victim from beneath while he's doing his business.)

A ninja who finds himself fighting anyone has flunked ninja school. Ninjutsu is about sneaking into a secure location and assassinating an unprepared victim. Escape and evasion may be involved, but are secondary to completing the mission.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Too bad we can't do that shit anymore, huh Digger?

 

[AlwaysOn]

Not exactly. If you know about feudalism (Lords, knights, peasants) the samurai were the equivalent of European knights. Because of the cost to arm and armor them, they were quite literally the equivalent of today's army tanks. A samurai could lose his master and become a 'ronin' but it would be almost impossible for him to fall so far down the social ladder that he would become a ninja.

That's because ninjas were an entirely different social caste, almost like the Indian "untouchables." Many of them were literally outhouse cleaners. Because they had no social standing, they could go places no one else would go and do things that were literally unthinkable to the rest of society. (Example: Hide in an outhouse, right down in the raw waste, and stab your victim from beneath while he's doing his business.)

A ninja who finds himself fighting anyone has flunked ninja school. Ninjutsu is about sneaking into a secure location and assassinating an unprepared victim. Escape and evasion may be involved, but are secondary to completing the mission.

I hope you aren't getting this info from the people trying to sell you this martial art.

I have studied Japanese culture in college, and on my own. I never heard of this...I honestly have serious doubts whether this martial art is authentic.

 

[digger]

Unrelated reading going back twenty years and more. Thanks for your concern, but my wallet is safe.

Getting authentic ninja material would be like getting authentic witchcraft material, or authentic atom bomb plans; those who knew wouldn't tell, those who'd tell didn't know.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Not exactly. If you know about feudalism (Lords, knights, peasants) the samurai were the equivalent of European knights. Because of the cost to arm and armor them, they were quite literally the equivalent of today's army tanks. A samurai could lose his master and become a 'ronin' but it would be almost impossible for him to fall so far down the social ladder that he would become a ninja.

That's because ninjas were an entirely different social caste, almost like the Indian "untouchables." Many of them were literally outhouse cleaners. Because they had no social standing, they could go places no one else would go and do things that were literally unthinkable to the rest of society. (Example: Hide in an outhouse, right down in the raw waste, and stab your victim from beneath while he's doing his business.)

A ninja who finds himself fighting anyone has flunked ninja school. Ninjutsu is about sneaking into a secure location and assassinating an unprepared victim. Escape and evasion may be involved, but are secondary to completing the mission.

Pretty much on the money. Ninjitsu is also not a single art but a name given to a few diferent arts that come together to create a "Ninja".

 

[digger]

Too bad we can't do that shit anymore, huh Digger?

Good reason to invent flush plumbing.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Hahahaha

 

[Bam]

I have studied Ninjutsu under Richard Van Donk who is the personal student of The Grand Master Maasaki Hatsumi. I also have met with and trained with Dr. Hatsumi at a Tai-Kai in Arizona. Both men are incredible martial artists and good people. There are MANY MANY incorrect observations about this art and much mis-information floating around. This art like any other when correctly studied and applied is about self control. The stories about Ninjas are mostly false. The Ninja were (contrary to popular belief) poor people of early Japan who were forced to train in secret with farm implements for weapons because the Daimyo forbade them to own Swords. They were farmers who were overtaxed and were rebelling by creating a new artform which over the centuries became the nine schools of Ninjutsu that exist today. The Grand Master Dr. Maasaki Hatsumi is the personal student of Takamatsu Sensi who was the last bloodline Ninja. Takamatsu awarded Hatsumi with all nine schools of Ninjutsu.

There are so many false statements including ths posts here that it's no wonder that most people know nothing about this powerfull and very serious art.

 

[digger]

Takamatsu awarded Hatsumi with all nine schools of Ninjutsu.

"Getting authentic ninja material would be like getting authentic witchcraft material, or authentic atom bomb plans; those who knew wouldn't tell, those who'd tell didn't know"

Dr. Hatsumi reminds me of one Gerald Gardner, who uncovered the real deal on what is now called Wicca.

Gardner claimed he got it from his grandmother. There's little doubt that he actually made it all up, but he did a really good job of it.

No disrepect to O-Sensei Hatsumi.

 

[Bam]

"Getting authentic ninja material would be like getting authentic witchcraft material, or authentic atom bomb plans; those who knew wouldn't tell, those who'd tell didn't know"

Dr. Hatsumi reminds me of one Gerald Gardner, who uncovered the real deal on what is now called Wicca.

Gardner claimed he got it from his grandmother. There's little doubt that he actually made it all up, but he did a really good job of it.

No disrepect to O-Sensei Hatsumi.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions, But that is just what this is. You have not met the man or trained with him while I have. There are some things that can only be learned in person. I respect your opinion and I also know from expirence what is true.

 

[Debaser]

I guarantee all these "secretive" arts would be flushed down the toilet in a hurry after getting your femur splintered by a single Thai leg kick.

 

[digger]

I guarantee all these "secretive" arts would be flushed down the toilet in a hurry after getting your femur splintered by a single Thai leg kick.

What if I skip the shin conditioning and grab a baseball bat?

And Bam -- nice give and take. That's what this board should be about.

 

[Bam]

I guarantee all these "secretive" arts would be flushed down the toilet in a hurry after getting your femur splintered by a single Thai leg kick.

Well that as I said is YOUR opinion.

The "Tai leg Kick" can be easily seen and turned against the attacker. It's all about the ability of the warrior to be able to take control of the timing of the conflict. That kick will always miss when aimed at a true Warrior. It's too easy to see.

Ninjutsu is not about some "Secret" knowledge, It is about the "Jihi No KoKoro" or translated the "Loving Heart". The pure energy collected from all around us (Ki) is used to see and react to the kick or any other attack by changing the timing of the conflict to gain the advantage. You can only learn this from a master and you can only use this if you are true in spirit.

 

[Debaser]

You'd think a true warrior would have to test his abilities against other "true warriors." You think training in a dojo or wherever even remotely compares to fighting world-class opponents at the K-1 or PRIDE level? Keep dreaming.

Explain to me, in detail, how you would stop the kick. What would you do, physically, to "turn the kick against me"?

 

[Bam]

You'd think a true warrior would have to test his abilities against other "true warriors." You think training in a dojo or wherever even remotely compares to
Explain to me, in detail, how you would stop the kick. What would you do, physically, to "turn the kick against me"?

Well actually I think that Fighting in any tournement is a waste of time. I know that a true warrior is not concerned with such things. In a combat between two warriors, there is respect for the other warrior and an acknowledgement that one will win and one will lose. There is no pride, shame, fear, or any other basic human emotion. The true warrior has already accepted the fact that we all will end this physical existance at some unknown time so there is no point in fearing that. To fear failure is to fail. The warrior who has moved beyond this physical fear has already won the battle. Read about The Greatest warior that ever existed (Miamoto Mushashi) and then see the truth.

 

[Bam]

What if I skip the shin conditioning and grab a baseball bat?

And Bam -- nice give and take. That's what this board should be about.

Thanks digger!

 

[Debaser]

Well actually I think that Fighting in any tournement is a waste of time. I know that a true warrior is not concerned with such things. In a combat between two warriors, there is respect for the other warrior and an acknowledgement that one will win and one will lose. There is no pride, shame, fear, or any other basic human emotion. The true warrior has already accepted the fact that we all will end this physical existance at some unknown time so there is no point in fearing that. To fear failure is to fail. The warrior who has moved beyond this physical fear has already won the battle. Read about The Greatest warior that ever existed (Miamoto Mushashi) and then see the truth.

Well first of all, you didn't even answer how you'd stop the kick. I doubt you even know the mechanics of it.

Second, let me give you a hypothetical situation. A group of boys want to become a basketball team. They practice dilligently, but never play against another team, much less professionals. They never learn opposing strategies, or how to counter them, because they're never faced with coaches and players that have different thoughts and ideas. After several years, they're thrown in court vs. the Lakers. The lakers have refined training, strategy, conditioning, skill, all versus opponents of varying skill levels. They've been in real games and tournaments more than anyone can count, vs. real players, who think, adjust, and counter as well.

Which team wins? If you never get in a real match with someone of real talent, you'll get eaten alive vs. those that have been there. This has been proven time and again.

 

[Bam]

Well first of all, you didn't even answer how you'd stop the kick. I doubt you even know the mechanics of it.

Second, let me give you a hypothetical situation. A group of boys want to become a basketball team. They practice dilligently, but never play against another team, much less professionals. They never learn opposing strategies, or how to counter them, because they're never faced with coaches and players that have different thoughts and ideas. After several years, they're thrown in court vs. the Lakers. The lakers have refined training, strategy, conditioning, skill, all versus opponents of varying skill levels. They've been in real games and tournaments more than anyone can count, vs. real players, who think, adjust, and counter as well.

Which team wins? If you never get in a real match with someone of real talent, you'll get eaten alive vs. those that have been there. This has been proven time and again.

Thats why any person who is really interested in improving him or her self trains with the masters at camps and in the dojo. The spiritual connection that a true warrior has with the infinite is the key. I did not answer your question about the "Mechanics" of blocking your kick because that is beside the point. Any attack can be countered in neumerous ways using the awarness that comes with a true connection with God (The Infinite). There is no "correct" answer to your "Mechanical" question. There is only the actual situation as it happens. I was once attacked by a young man who pulled a knife out of his pocket. He wanted my money and said so, I simply faced him in the eyes and told him that he was acting in an inapproiate fassion. The energy that I possesed and showed him made him a believer. As I stated, The (Ki) or energy within us is the deciding factor in any conflict. I walked away from that situation without ever having to harm the attacker. This is the goal. To "Win the conflict" without harming the attacker. Every situation is unique, You can never know what course you will take or what the outcme will be. If you profess to know the "Best or final answer" then you have already lost.

 

[Debaser]

Pseudo-religious bullshit that would get you killed in any real combat situation.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

I agree debaser, I think the old bammer may have taken too many hits off of the ol' crack pipe. While he is out there training with the "true master" and scaring knife wielding attackers off with his stern voice, there are those of us that are actually acquiring real self defense knowledge. Many ninjiutsu pros have come to my bjj/muay thai school and found themselves tapping with glee, and signing a contract to learn how to really protect themselves. While bambam is busy readying his CHI to try and scare people he will have found himself laying in a bloody heap wondering why he did not take up a more effective martial art that can be used in real life practical situations. I do not make these assumptions from believing that my art is superior to yours, I make this statement in truth because I have studied several martial arts, including ninjiutsu, and hold significant rank in all of them except ninjiutsu because the art is not very practical or effective at all, If you need my credintials I can post them gladly, or you could come to my school and witness what real effective martial arts look like.

 

[Debaser]

I think bam is just a troll anyway, he doesn't even have any profile information whatsoever filled out.

 

[digger]

You have to understand that while you're there looking at Bam and wondering what planet he's from, his wife is sneaking up behind you with a frying pan.

Substitute "gypsy" for "ninja" if helps you think outside the box. Would you expect a gypsy to stand up and box with you? Hell, no. He'd throw dust in your eyes, pull out a razor, sic a monkey on you, do any and all kinds of offbeat stuff that no dojo would ever think of covering. (I first heard of muay thai in the Modesty Blaise books, and she used a documented ninja trick -- she flashed her tits at the bad guys while her partner snuck up behind them. Called it "The Nailer." Might keep that in mind next time some chickiebabe gives you a free peek.)

What "mechanics" a ninja would use to defend against a thai kick, I have no idea, but messing with your timing and changing the distance are both no-brainers. Are your knees anywhere near as tough as your shins? It's a small target, but a broken knee's a fight-ender and you're giving the defender a lot of force to work with.

And what self-respecting ninja strikes with an empty hand? The world is full of rusty nails and broken glass.

 

[Debaser]

Err...this doesn't sound like "ki" or the "infinite" or being a "true warrior" has much to do with it. Sounds like fighting dirty to me. That's all well and good, but he's not an actual ninja, he's just defending ninjitsu.

By the way, how the hell is he going to break a knee from a Thai kick?

 

[digger]

Err...this doesn't sound like "ki" or the "infinite" or being a "true warrior" has much to do with it. Sounds like fighting dirty to me.

NOW you got it!

Funny, I've heard Bam's "origin of ninjitsu" before, but it was supposed to be the origin of karate on Okinawa: "The Japanese have taken our swords, our spears, our knives. What of that? We shall make every arm a sword, every leg a spear, every hand a knife."

That's all well and good, but he's not an actual ninja, he's just defending ninjitsu.

By the way, how the hell is he going to break a knee from a Thai kick?

I don't claim to know anything about his nine schools.

How would I do it? Uh...

A shin kick is "like a baseball bat," almost straight-legged, right? You're in closer than a karate kick, of course, because you're striking with the shin, not the foot. But you're not in a clinch. You set the distance, twist from the hip, give it all you've got, watch your opponent fall over twitching.

Okay, my goal is to close that gap slightly so your shin doesn't get to use me as a landing pad, and instead catch you with a knife hand, palm heel, elbow, whatever -- right below the knee cap. You're providing all the force, you see? I'm just providing a fulcrum where you don't want one.

Just a theory. If it is "against the rules" I'd consider that a warning sign.

(Ever see "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"? "No rules in a knife fight!")

 

[Debaser]

Okay, my goal is to close that gap slightly so your shin doesn't get to use me as a landing pad, and instead catch you with a knife hand, palm heel, elbow, whatever -- right below the knee cap. You're providing all the force, you see? I'm just providing a fulcrum where you don't want one.

I'm not sure how that would work...I don't think you realize how fast these kicks come out, any effort on your part to close the distance simply means you're going to just get hit on a higher portion of my shin.

Also, with the angle of the kick, I'm not sure how you would accomplish it anyway. You'd wind up just getting your hand broken.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

NOW you got it!

Funny, I've heard Bam's "origin of ninjitsu" before, but it was supposed to be the origin of karate on Okinawa: "The Japanese have taken our swords, our spears, our knives. What of that? We shall make every arm a sword, every leg a spear, every hand a knife."



I don't claim to know anything about his nine schools.

How would I do it? Uh...

A shin kick is "like a baseball bat," almost straight-legged, right? You're in closer than a karate kick, of course, because you're striking with the shin, not the foot. But you're not in a clinch. You set the distance, twist from the hip, give it all you've got, watch your opponent fall over twitching.

Okay, my goal is to close that gap slightly so your shin doesn't get to use me as a landing pad, and instead catch you with a knife hand, palm heel, elbow, whatever -- right below the knee cap. You're providing all the force, you see? I'm just providing a fulcrum where you don't want one.

Just a theory. If it is "against the rules" I'd consider that a warning sign.

(Ever see "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"? "No rules in a knife fight!")

If it's thrown right, the leg is slightly bent-making it hard to hyper extend the knee. Also, the kick is usually thrown in combo with fists first-making it hard to see. The best way to block the Thai kick is to destroy it. Destroy it by bending the knee at a harsher angle -heel to hamstring. The shin will hit the bone like a ball ping hammer. It's a dirty muay thai technique.

 

[digger]

I'm not sure how that would work...I don't think you realize how fast these kicks come out, any effort on your part to close the distance simply means you're going to just get hit on a higher portion of my shin.

Didn't think it would be easy... that's where timing comes into it. Distance and timing -- that's what 'boxing' style arts like MT teach, and one of the things that makes them so practical.

Conditioning is another, of course.

Also, with the angle of the kick, I'm not sure how you would accomplish it anyway. You'd wind up just getting your hand broken.

Yeah, but I can still run with a broken hand. Going to have to check out Rick's school, I suspect. Video just doesn't convey the flavor.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

bam... Howcome none of the ninjitsu masters has come to take the belt at Pride or UFC ? One that did try got his ass handed to him by a Muay Thai guy in less the 2 minutes.


Debaser:
Best way to block a leg kick is to raise your leg at a 45 degree angle and block with your shin. If block you two consecutive leg kicks... take a step back since the next one is mostlikely going to come in at your head. Whatever you do, never take a kick to the leg with your leg straight or your feet firmly planted. even if you don't get your shin at the right angle it is better for that kick to connect while your foot is off the ground with no weight on it than while you've got your center of gravity set on it.

 

[digger]

If it's thrown right, the leg is slightly bent-making it hard to hyper extend the knee.

Yeah, that is obviously important.

Also, the kick is usually thrown in combo with fists first-making it hard to see. The best way to block the Thai kick is to destroy it. Destroy it by bending the knee at a harsher angle -heel to hamstring. The shin will hit the bone like a ball ping hammer. It's a dirty muay thai technique.

I'm having a little trouble visualizing that. You're forcing a hyperflexion somehow instead of hyperextention?

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Yeah, that is obviously important.


I'm having a little trouble visualizing that. You're forcing a hyperflexion somehow instead of hyperextention?

no not really. you are blocking it like normal. but instead of offering up your shin to get kicked, you simply bend your leg more to where your heel is almost touching your ass. the kicker then strikes the bent knee instead of the shin. it causes mucho pain even to the most conditioned of shins. I know it's hard to visualize but it's really simple and easy-but damn effective.

 

[Debaser]

Debaser:
Best way to block a leg kick is to raise your leg at a 45 degree angle and block with your shin. If block you two consecutive leg kicks... take a step back since the next one is mostlikely going to come in at your head. Whatever you do, never take a kick to the leg with your leg straight or your feet firmly planted. even if you don't get your shin at the right angle it is better for that kick to connect while your foot is off the ground with no weight on it than while you've got your center of gravity set on it.

Oh yeah I know how to block it...I was just asking for an explanation when people were saying they'd simply deflect it or counter it with ninjitsu.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

God I love this board, and this thread. Bam was a crackhead, but all this discussion of strikes and thai kicks and countering them and such...very nice. Informative shit.

 

[Bam]

bam... Howcome none of the ninjitsu masters has come to take the belt at Pride or UFC ? One that did try got his ass handed to him by a Muay Thai guy in less the 2 minutes.

I don't know who you are refering to above but I can say that we (Ninjutsu practiotioners) are not concerned with "Prooving" our skills, We do what is needed at the time. We do not condone the sensless waste of time and energy consumed in tournements.

As I said and Digger agreed with, If I have control of the timing and distance than I have won before the physical attack happens. It's called awarness.

There are "Great Fighters" in many arts but you miss the point, Ninjutsu practioneers are not training to learn how to fight. We train to end the conflict with as little damage as possible. This is the mark of a "True Master".

 

[Bam]

God I love this board, and this thread. Bam was a crackhead, but all this discussion of strikes and thai kicks and countering them and such...very nice. Informative shit.

Cute but I do not use any kind of drugs.

 

[Bam]

I agree debaser, I think the old bammer may have taken too many hits off of the ol' crack pipe. While he is out there training with the "true master" and scaring knife wielding attackers off with his stern voice, there are those of us that are actually acquiring real self defense knowledge. Many ninjiutsu pros have come to my bjj/muay thai school and found themselves tapping with glee, and signing a contract to learn how to really protect themselves. While bambam is busy readying his CHI to try and scare people he will have found himself laying in a bloody heap wondering why he did not take up a more effective martial art that can be used in real life practical situations. I do not make these assumptions from believing that my art is superior to yours, I make this statement in truth because I have studied several martial arts, including ninjiutsu, and hold significant rank in all of them except ninjiutsu because the art is not very practical or effective at all, If you need my credintials I can post them gladly, or you could come to my school and witness what real effective martial arts look like.

Credentials mean nothing...
I don't announce my rank because I have seen basic students win against so called "Black Belts". What is inside the warrior is what counts...

Like it or not!

 

[digger]

Hey, Tom -- basta ya with the crackhead stuff, okay? Give respect, get respect, and don't tease the handicapped or they'll whap you with their canes.

Discussion of mechanics is hard; it's often difficult to put a technique into words. Look at the trouble I had following that simple "block with your own leg bent." I focussed on the knee I wanted to break, and didn't realize the conversation had switched to blocking with a knee.

Anyway, do we need yet another Muay Thai thread? Give the ninjas a little space!

Hey, what about squad tactics? We've touched on "what do you do when it's two on one" but what about three-on-two or four-on-three?

If two guys jump you while you're with your gf, is she baggage, a hostage, or someone who can cover your back? Sneaky is good.

 

[Bam]

Hey, Tom -- basta ya with the crackhead stuff, okay? Give respect, get respect, and don't tease the handicapped or they'll whap you with their canes.

Discussion of mechanics is hard; it's often difficult to put a technique into words. Look at the trouble I had following that simple "block with your own leg bent." I focussed on the knee I wanted to break, and didn't realize the conversation had switched to blocking with a knee.

Anyway, do we need yet another Muay Thai thread? Give the ninjas a little space!

Hey, what about squad tactics? We've touched on "what do you do when it's two on one" but what about three-on-two or four-on-three?

If two guys jump you while you're with your gf, is she baggage, a hostage, or someone who can cover your back? Sneaky is good.

Hey Digger Thanks again,

I am also a pilot of small aircraft and a comercial pilot who teaches Hot Air Ballooning. There is a saying...

Any landing you walk away from is a good one...

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Bravo!!!! Bravo for the fool that knows it all. Sometimes space and controlling the timing are luxuries that most people in street encounters often do not have, but I guess with your extensive knowledge of no real contact waste of time tornaments and jumping out of trees with the masters in your 2 toed shoes you already know that. Digger, maybe you ought to go and experience a little Thai before you figure out a real good block that would not break your hand in the process. Though, you could probably enter one of those stern talking ninja courses and probably scare any one away from an encounter by just speaking firm at them with strong chi. By the way bam, I have never witnessed a white belt who knows nothing at all beat a Thai guy or BJJ guy.............EVER! Your rank is irrelavant anyway flyboy, your art is ineffective, but if you enjoy it that is all that counts in my book, but don't be surprised by the landing that you will take the next time you are unable to gather your chi in time to scare off an unwanted attacker.

 

[digger]

My first judo instructor told us "Some guy comes after you with a knife, don't put on fancy wristlock to impress your girlfriend. Hit him with a chair! Knock him out! Then you can show off, put on fancy wristlock."

H-D, I stay out of bars and I don't try to pick up other guy's chickiebabes. You won't win any bragging rights by kicking a fat old guy around the block. Okay? I don't think of ninjitsu the way Bam does. I think of it as a search for real-world solutions to problems. Screw the walking sideways and thinking like a tree -- but improvised weapons? Sign me up!

There is no doubt that MT is right up there in terms of one-on-one styles, but I'd still like to hear how you'd hook up a couple of bros to watch each others' backs. Does MT ever go beyond two guys in the ring?

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Ok... Muay Thai will not teach you to handle 3-4 opponents, or to guard against weapons. But is will put you in a position where you are already way ahead of the game in striking, even against guy with MA experience. Muay Thai is only one part of the package. a good compliments of some BJJ, Arnis and maybe Krav Maga can complete the package.

PS: There are one and two week courses you can take all about close quarter fighting and defending against weapons.

My first judo instructor told us "Some guy comes after you with a knife, don't put on fancy wristlock to impress your girlfriend. Hit him with a chair! Knock him out! Then you can show off, put on fancy wristlock."

H-D, I stay out of bars and I don't try to pick up other guy's chickiebabes. You won't win any bragging rights by kicking a fat old guy around the block. Okay? I don't think of ninjitsu the way Bam does. I think of it as a search for real-world solutions to problems. Screw the walking sideways and thinking like a tree -- but improvised weapons? Sign me up!

There is no doubt that MT is right up there in terms of one-on-one styles, but I'd still like to hear how you'd hook up a couple of bros to watch each others' backs. Does MT ever go beyond two guys in the ring?

 

[ManOfArms]

Not exactly. If you know about feudalism (Lords, knights, peasants) the samurai were the equivalent of European knights. Because of the cost to arm and armor them, they were quite literally the equivalent of today's army tanks. A samurai could lose his master and become a 'ronin' but it would be almost impossible for him to fall so far down the social ladder that he would become a ninja.

That's because ninjas were an entirely different social caste, almost like the Indian "untouchables." Many of them were literally outhouse cleaners. Because they had no social standing, they could go places no one else would go and do things that were literally unthinkable to the rest of society. (Example: Hide in an outhouse, right down in the raw waste, and stab your victim from beneath while he's doing his business.)

A ninja who finds himself fighting anyone has flunked ninja school. Ninjutsu is about sneaking into a secure location and assassinating an unprepared victim. Escape and evasion may be involved, but are secondary to completing the mission.

was that a quote? I read that somewhere a very long time ago...

 

[digger]

Yep. I forget the book's title. It's a paraphrase, not a quote, and the summary is pure digger.

 

[Bam]

I think I have proven my point here, Digger what do you think?

All these Hostile responses tell me a lot about the people posting them. I would have to say that if these people (or anyone) for that matter who allowed themselves to get this worked up in a real life conflict would be at a great dis-advantage in that conflict. The most important qualities I think are awarness and self control. Emotions will cloud a persons perceptions and if this happens they have lost the game. We who study Ninjutsu value "Balance" above all else. I can take away the mental and physical balance of a person very easily by creating these emotions we have seen displayed here! If I take away a persons balance I have control over them.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, I doubt you'd have complete control over them. Actually, I can say you 100% wouldn't. You may be one step ahead, but that's nothing a quick strike couldn't remedy.

Either way, HeavyDuty was a bit hostile, and I myself apologized in a PM already.

I don't think any one MA would prove ideal for any situation. Even if it did, I'd feel more comfortable having a wide array of arts at my disposal. Not to mention the pride of having taken part in so many forms of fighting. To learn from many different schools is mastery, in my eyes.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Wow, you guys are very pc tonight. I stated plain and simple, if bam enjoys his art that is all that is important. Hostile? Worked up with emotion? NO! I guess my sarcasm comes across the wrong way here, I have been training martial arts virtually my whole life and that gives me the right to speak about the ones that i have studied. I have nothing to prove that the UFC has not proved for me already about what arts are superior and which ones were exposed for the frauds that they always were when it comes to self defense, and that includes ninjiutsu among others. Digger, improvising on the fly with chairs and bottles isn't some sacred art, it has been called bar room brawling for as long as I can remember. Okay? Bam, I hope you are not taking yourself too seriously when you type these posts, because they have been quite entertaining for me to read with all the controlling through emotional balance crap you are spewing. I am a collegiate wrestler, I live, eat and breath my training everyday, full time not part time. It is aggressive, rough, and physically and mentally challenging. It is the oldest form of combat known to man virtually. You wanna know how we win matches, conditioning, mental toughness, repitition in training, and agressiveness. I doubt highly that any group of martial artists train as hard as serious wrestlers do, and I am a martial artist saying that. Ninjiutsu will never stack up to these measurables in any art, you'll be too busy trying to throw an attacker off their emotional balance right before you realize that you should have studied a more effective art as you come crashing down on your head most likely. I won't make any apologies like others on here for my statements, who cares? This is an internet discussion, I stand by them and believe that if you enjoy what you do then cool, but don't hate on me because you believe that your art is not highly inferior to real martial arts such as bjj, mt, judo, or wrestling. When in fact it is. If my comments are too agressive for some of you, cool. That trait is in my blood and has never costed me a street fight when that instance has ocurred. If you don't think that agression can be honed and turned into a positive in your training and in life, then maybe you are not as in touch with yourself as you think you are.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

I am a collegiate wrestler, I live, eat and breath my training everyday, full time not part time. It is aggressive, rough, and physically and mentally challenging. It is the oldest form of combat known to man virtually. You wanna know how we win matches, conditioning, mental toughness, repitition in training, and agressiveness. I doubt highly that any group of martial artists train as hard as serious wrestlers do, and I am a martial artist saying that..

Can I get a fucking AMEN! to that.

Ninjiutsu will never stack up to these measurables in any art, you'll be too busy trying to throw an attacker off their emotional balance right before you realize that you should have studied a more effective art as you come crashing down on your head most likely. I won't make any apologies like others on here for my statements, who cares? This is an internet discussion, I stand by them and believe that if you enjoy what you do then cool, but don't hate on me because you believe that your art is not highly inferior to real martial arts such as bjj, mt, judo, or wrestling. When in fact it is. If my comments are too agressive for some of you, cool. That trait is in my blood and has never costed me a street fight when that instance has ocurred. If you don't think that agression can be honed and turned into a positive in your training and in life, then maybe you are not as in touch with yourself as you think you are.

I can't even think of stepping in front of an opponent unless my heart is filled with emotions and my blood is boiling. The Fear, Anger, and the Adrenaline Rush, Right before a fight should not "cloud" your mind but rather put you in a "Zone". You are more aware of everything… your opponent's movements seem to be in slow motion... His center of gravity is easy to read like you are reading this post right now, any shift in his center of gravity will automatically trigger a subconscious response in your brain where you just "know" he is planning a strike or he has left himself open for a throw or strike… Your Endorphins should have you so doped up you can get hit pretty fucking hard and not feel it till the next day, when you are at home in cloud nine feeling good about having overcome your opponent.
Forget all the Ninja mind games.... Harness your emotions, don’t force any moves, only take what the man gives you. When your heart tells you to make a move… never second guess yourself, just throw that shit!

 

[Bam]

Well, I doubt you'd have complete control over them. Actually, I can say you 100% wouldn't. You may be one step ahead, but that's nothing a quick strike couldn't remedy.

Either way, HeavyDuty was a bit hostile, and I myself apologized in a PM already.

I don't think any one MA would prove ideal for any situation. Even if it did, I'd feel more comfortable having a wide array of arts at my disposal. Not to mention the pride of having taken part in so many forms of fighting. To learn from many different schools is mastery, in my eyes.

I agree with you about having a variety of skills. I got your apology and thank you.

 

[Bam]

Bam, I hope you are not taking yourself too seriously when you type these posts

No more than you or anyone else here.

 

[digger]

It's a fact that "boiling blood" leads to a whole complex of things, including a sense of time slowing down and decreased sensitivity to pain, both good in a fight -- but also to a virtual shutdown of hearing, and tunnel vision. When you lock in on the man in front of you, you risk becoming blind to the guy coming up behind you with that chair. Mas Ayoob (NH police trainer, expert witness) has a column in American Handgunner where he analyzes both police and civilian shootings, and he comes back to these points over and over.

Harnessing your aggression and the repetition of training? Amen! But I'm not talking about grabbing just any old chair -- and getting your chest stove in with a sidekick while you're trying to hoist it over your head.

Imagine someone who consciously scans every room when he walks in and PICKS which chair is light enough to swing and solid enough to hurt; whether the ballpoint pen on the desk will penetrate a skull or not... Someone who does that not just when he feels threatened, but as naturally as breathing. That's the difference between my interpretation of "ninja" and a barroom brawler.

I suspect I'm rather far away from Bam's interpretation, too, and I should find a different word.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Imagine someone who consciously scans every room when he walks in and PICKS which chair is light enough to swing and solid enough to hurt; whether the ballpoint pen on the desk will penetrate a skull or not... Someone who does that not just when he feels threatened, but as naturally as breathing.

Digger has been watching "The Bourne Identity"

 

[digger]

Digger has been watching "The Bourne Identity"

Nope. Grosse Point Blank.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Damn you two. Now I have to see both of those.

 

[Debaser]

Well bam, no offense but if you're talking about throwing off someone's emotional balance, you should understand how the psyche works. A person can run the gamut from a permeable emotional state (letting emotions/feeling in) to a fully rigid state. This rigid state is what allows special forces, army, SWAT teams etc. to separate their emotions from the situation.

When in a fight, you are in that rigid state. Nothing you say to me is going to throw me off balance emotionally. Who are you trying to kid here--have you ever been in a real fight? Someone with the intent to assault, stab, club or whatever would doubtfully give you time to speak, let ALONE listen to a damn thing you have to say.

Let's take some other things into consideration. Military personnel, special forces, etc. NEED to be able to use hand-to-hand combat techniques in order to SURVIVE. They encounter this stuff as part of their CAREER. So don't you think they've delved into every martial art, every modality, researched everything so that they can have the best possible survival rate? Now I ask, how many of these guys are taught techniques based on CHI? Don't you think they would be taught WHAT WORKS?! Now who would you trust to be more knowledgeable in the field of combat:

1. Someone who actually encounters situations where optimal training is a necessity for survival, on a day to day basis.

2. A spiritual chi master who plays with hot air baloons that goes to a weekend warrior McDojo class in a strip mall.

I rest my case. You either get it or you don't. I hope you never have to defend a loved one in a REAL situation, because reality seems to be the farthest thing from your mind.

 

[digger]

Nothing you say to me is going to throw me off balance emotionally.

Not even your sergeant or captain yelling "STAND DOWN!" ?

I'm playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, but I've got a nephew in the Marines. He sends me notes every so often about guys he knows personally who are collecting medals, and you better believe I want him to be hard as the edge of a knife. So, there will be no disrespect for your postion coming from me.

Thing is, a G.I. who's serving an enlistment is like a mass-produced weapon. There's a difference in his skill level, not unlike the difference between an M-16 and a match rifle. He's effective, no argument there. He has to be "good enough." But is he everything that a warrior, or a human, can be?

Did O Sensei Uyeshiba (the creator of aikido) really walk unscathed through a room full of people trying to grab and throw him? The people who were there claim it was like trying to grab smoke. You think you could have taken him?

Did they all hold back because they didn't want to hurt the old guy? I don't know.

I rest my case. You either get it or you don't. I hope you never have to defend a loved one in a REAL situation

A-fuckin-men. I hold that hope for all of us, whether your chosen art is muay thai, aikido, krag mata, or S&W.

 

[Bam]

Well bam, no offense but if you're talking about throwing off someone's emotional balance, you should understand how the psyche works. A person can run the gamut from a permeable emotional state (letting emotions/feeling in) to a fully rigid state. This rigid state is what allows special forces, army, SWAT teams etc. to separate their emotions from the situation.

When in a fight, you are in that rigid state. Nothing you say to me is going to throw me off balance emotionally. Who are you trying to kid here--have you ever been in a real fight? Someone with the intent to assault, stab, club or whatever would doubtfully give you time to speak, let ALONE listen to a damn thing you have to say.

Let's take some other things into consideration. Military personnel, special forces, etc. NEED to be able to use hand-to-hand combat techniques in order to SURVIVE. They encounter this stuff as part of their CAREER. So don't you think they've delved into every martial art, every modality, researched everything so that they can have the best possible survival rate? Now I ask, how many of these guys are taught techniques based on CHI? Don't you think they would be taught WHAT WORKS?! Now who would you trust to be more knowledgeable in the field of combat:

1. Someone who actually encounters situations where optimal training is a necessity for survival, on a day to day basis.

2. A spiritual chi master who plays with hot air baloons that goes to a weekend warrior McDojo class in a strip mall.

I rest my case. You either get it or you don't. I hope you never have to defend a loved one in a REAL situation, because reality seems to be the farthest thing from your mind.

Actually it's a combination of both. I know you guys think that I am interested in only the spiritual aspect of this conversation but I too have trained with Navy seals and army rangers. And I am fully aware of the posibilities in a confrontation. I have spent many hours/Days/Weeks/Years training with every sort of bladed weapon as well as handguns. We have focused on dis-arming methods and I have expirence in Akido,Kenjutsu,Iaido and Suwari Waza (Ground Fighting) skills. We have worked on knife and sherikan throwing. One of my favorite weapons is the Kusari Fundo, This a weapon made of a small diameter chain with weights on each end. The weapon fits around ones waist under a belt and can be whipped out in a second becoming a very serious weapon for offense or defense. I make no claim at being a master in any but expirenced in all.

One thing's for sure and that is like Digger said, To keep every opportunity in mind. Every object within reach is a possible weapon weather it is me or someone else that has access to it. The most deadly weapon of all is the mind. Some use it and some don't.

I have walked on hot coals on several different occasions without ever being burnt. Both my wife and I walked on the fire and we also have both bent steel re-bar on our throats. If I can walk on 2000 degree coals I think I can command enough mental focus to withstand an attack and to use the skills I have develloped over the years.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Your wife did that? Holy fuck.

 

[Bam]

Your wife did that? Holy fuck.

You Bet!!

She is Hawaiian and I am the Howlie

 

[Bam]

Pretty much on the money. Ninjitsu is also not a single art but a name given to a few diferent arts that come together to create a "Ninja".

Nin by the way means "Nothingness" or "Zero" and Ja means one who follows.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

So bam, you are training with Rangers and Seals. I think that is great, I am out here helping give seminars to the troops and police officers. I am helping teach our troops more effective self defense and hand to hand combat to use in war. What does your art contribute to society? Seriously. Hot coals are cool bro, but they do not get up and fight back and threaten you. It has no real bearing on a street fight or self defense situation. Sure you can keep your mental focus when it comes to a dead non living organism, but what about the real deal?

 

[JoNeS]

Isn't Ninjitsu the style van damne (frank dux) used in the movie Blood sport? That is supposed to be a true story and apparently that guy went undefeated in the full contact event the kumite for like 5 years.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I love that movie. I didn't think it was Ninjitsu. Either way, great fuckin' film.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Isn't Ninjitsu the style van damne (frank dux) used in the movie Blood sport? That is supposed to be a true story and apparently that guy went undefeated in the full contact event the kumite for like 5 years.

it was exposed that all of that was bullshit.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

You Bet!!

She is Hawaiian and I am the Howlie

This thread is useless without pics or video clips.


PS: When you say you have "trained with" Rangers and Navy Seal... how did that come about?

 

[hub5326]

I've been out of the teams since 97 but I can tell you as a former seal that no one art is taught and to my knowledge no ninja has ever taught or instructed inside of the teams. In its inception there was a program called scars that was taught and the instructors who taught the course sought out the most devastating strikes, blows and moves from many arts that could incapacitate an attacker in the shortest possible time. The program evolved from there and is now a very effective fighting system based on many of the arts talked about on the board from bjj, to muay thai, not a competitive art but a system designed to end fights and save your life in event you are on your last line of defense.

Digger is right on with where he was coming from with fighting dirty, hard and using anything and everything to your advantage to end the fight as soon as possible. I'm familiar with Ayob and the most famous gun fighting trainer in the world is probably Jeff Cooper. They believe in awareness depending on the situation you are in. If you are in your house for instance, low threat(yellow) when you are moving from your house you are into an (orange) zone or heightened awareness, and when you are in that situation that has the possibility for trouble (red). When in orange and red you are looking for targets, weapons, and exits so when a problem erupts you are prepared. The preparation allows you to relax and use all of your abilities and surroundings to the most effective manner. Fighting while mad or angry only causes you to loose focus on your surroundings and make mistakes.

When I met a person (completely outside of the military) who had some knowledge of ninjitsu he told me the thinking was to never fight fair. If it was going to be a one on one fight or they believed the odds weren't in their favor so they would avoid the fight completely. Who knows that could all be a bullshit excuse as to why they don't compete but they do work very hard on balance and timing which is really the key to most practical arts used in fighting today.

hub5326

 

[Bam]

This thread is useless without pics or video clips.


PS: When you say you have "trained with" Rangers and Navy Seal... how did that come about?

Personal Friends who were serving in those forces and who train in various arts in civilian life.

 

[Bam]

This thread is useless without pics or video clips.


I have pics but they are not digital, And I don't have a scanner.

 

[Bam]

So bam, you are training with Rangers and Seals. I think that is great, I am out here helping give seminars to the troops and police officers. I am helping teach our troops more effective self defense and hand to hand combat to use in war. What does your art contribute to society? Seriously. Hot coals are cool bro, but they do not get up and fight back and threaten you. It has no real bearing on a street fight or self defense situation. Sure you can keep your mental focus when it comes to a dead non living organism, but what about the real deal?

I do not study to contribute to society, I study to better my self.

I contribute to society by sharing my skills with kids that cannot otherwise afford training.

Walking on fire is simply a confirmation of ones ability to assimilate the energy around one self. This ability comes in handy when the time comes to defend against an attack. Sensing the attack when it comes from behind or from more than one direction is vital. Control and use of energy is the point I am making.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

You really are not making much of a point though. It is more like a joke you keep making over and over again. Dude, I seriously hope that you never encounter a dangerous REAL life situation because you will find yourself hurt badly. I feel for the kids that you are teaching as well, they are being led into a false sense of security when it comes to protecting themselves. I have a problem with arts like these and people like you, you train in your little secret art and secret camps practicing your secret death touches and have deemed yourself too dangerous for society and other martial arts. Tournaments are a waste of time? Dude, how do you know how good you are or could be unless you test your knowledge of your "art" against other practitioners. They don't have a walking on hot coals contest or make believe stern chi talking scare your attackers away contest? So practicing with no one that can truly test your abilities is what you are after at your little camps? Bam, my point about contributing to society is that your art contributes nothing because it has nothing to offer when it comes to REAL self defense and controlling attackers in any form of battle. People are not walking around with ninja stars and swords and using nunchuks in modern society. Unless you study a REAL effective martial arts system you will remain delusional. Just open your mind a little, there is a whole world of really effective martial arts out there.

 

[Bam]

You really are not making much of a point though. It is more like a joke you keep making over and over again. Dude, I seriously hope that you never encounter a dangerous REAL life situation because you will find yourself hurt badly. I feel for the kids that you are teaching as well, they are being led into a false sense of security when it comes to protecting themselves. I have a problem with arts like these and people like you, you train in your little secret art 1)THE ART IS NOT SECRET

and secret camps 2) THE CAMPS ARE NOY SECRET

practicing your secret death touches 3) WHO SAID THAT WE USE SECRET DEATH TOUCHES?

and have deemed yourself too dangerous for society and other martial arts.
4) NO ONE I KNOW EVER SAID THAT

Tournaments are a waste of time? 5) WE CONSIDER THAT UNNECESSARY

Dude, how do you know how good you are or could be unless you test your knowledge of your "art" against other practitioners.

6) THATS THE POINT, WE ARE NOT INTRERESED IN "COMPARING OURSELVES" TO OTHERS. WE TRAIN TO BETTER OURSELVES PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY.

They don't have a walking on hot coals contest or make believe stern chi talking scare your attackers away contest?

7) WHO CARES WHAT "THEY" DO.

So practicing with no one that can truly test your abilities is what you are after at your little camps?

8) YOU ARE TOO FUNNY WITH YOUR "LITTLE" COMENTS AS IF THAT MAKING YOU FEEL "BIGGER".

Bam, my point about contributing to society is that your art contributes nothing because it has nothing to offer when it comes to REAL self defense and controlling attackers in any form of battle.


9) AGAIN YOU MIS-UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ART IS AND WHAT TEQNIQUES WE TRAIN WITH.

People are not walking around with ninja stars and swords and using nunchuks in modern society.

10) YES BUT A BASEBALL BAT WITH NAILS IN IT (used like a sword) IS A FAVORITE OF GANG MEMBERS AND TRAINING WITH THESE WEAPONS ALSO TRAINS ONE IN THE METHODS TO DEFEND AGAINST ONE.

Unless you study a REAL effective martial arts system you will remain delusional.

11) ITS AS "REAL" AS IT GETS.

Just open your mind a little

12) MY MIND IS ALWAYS OPEN, I NEVER BELITTLED YOUR ART OR ANY OTHERS AS YOU SEEM INTERESTED IN DOING.

there is a whole world of really effective martial arts out there.

AND I STUDY THE EFFECTIVE ONE OF MY CHOICE

 

[Bam]

Here is a further note:

I find it humorous that in these forums many of you find it necessary to bad mouth each other instead of just talking about your arts and styles.

This thread was simply about Ninjutsu and if you don't know about Ninjutsu or don't like it that is fine. However many of you feel the need to bash each others arts and then to even start bashing the person posting.

This is silly and to make it even worse is the fact that you haver no personal knowledge of the person you are bashing.

In this case many of you have made a varirety of silly attemps at bashing me because I study Ninjutsu and other "Spiritual" aspects of Martial arts and because I do not attend Tournements. This is OK if that makes you feel better but from my point of view it is just silly.

You have no knowledge of me, my size, my abilities, or what I have expirenced in this lifetime.

The fact of the matter is that I worked in law enforcment for many years and specialized in gang issues in the Bay Area of California. I can tell you that I not only "Survived" the streats but dealt with some very dangerous situations. I have been cut with a knife and almost killed by a male on PCP and survived those incidents as well as others. I have seen people die in front of my eyes from gang related fights and I have saved a couple of lives as well. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to make it on the street.

I think those of you who insist on bashing others without any knowledge of the other person are the ones that need to open up your minds a little.

Note: This is not aimed at any one in particular, And there some of you out there posting very responsibly. Keep up the good work.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

I don't need to know you to be able to assess that your art is not very effective.

I don't need to belittle your art with comments to make me feel better, I am an accomplished ATHLETE. I am just making a point through MY studies of several martial arts including ninjiutsu.

I totally agree with you about training in an art to better yourself spiritually and mentally, but tournaments are a good way to test your growth spiritually, mentally and physically. Tournaments are not comparing yourself to others, it is not a bodybuilding contest. They are a great way to test your growth. That is all I am saying.

Please go ahead and belittle any of the martial arts I have studied or currently study, they are all tried and PROVEN effective arts.

I don't feel like I am attacking you, I am attacking the effectiveness of your art is all. If you happen to take that as an insult than that is your problem.

If you do not think I am posting "responsibly" because I am not emailing you and kissing your ass with apoligies over comments made about your art then you need to do some seroius soul searching over whose mind it is that is limited in this DISCUSSION.

 

[Bam]

I don't need to know you to be able to assess that your art is not very effective.

I don't need to belittle your art with comments to make me feel better, I am an accomplished ATHLETE. I am just making a point through MY studies of several martial arts including ninjiutsu.

I totally agree with you about training in an art to better yourself spiritually and mentally, but tournaments are a good way to test your growth spiritually, mentally and physically. Tournaments are not comparing yourself to others, it is not a bodybuilding contest. They are a great way to test your growth. That is all I am saying.

Please go ahead and belittle any of the martial arts I have studied or currently study, they are all tried and PROVEN effective arts.

I don't feel like I am attacking you, I am attacking the effectiveness of your art is all. If you happen to take that as an insult than that is your problem.

If you do not think I am posting "responsibly" because I am not emailing you and kissing your ass with apoligies over comments made about your art then you need to do some seroius soul searching over whose mind it is that is limited in this DISCUSSION.

I am not insulted, You don't have the power to do that.
I did not ask for any apologies
You are not my type so you will have to kiss someone elses ass

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Dude, you are obviously insulted with the way that you continue to respond.
No apologies offered.
Just a plain dumb and weak comment.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Stop bickering like children. It's getting old. Let's keep the focus on the topic: Ninjitsu.

 

[Olorin]

I took Ninjitsu for a few months a year ago before my moving out of the city forced me to stop. It was only 2 months but I still enjoyed myself. Ninjitsu is less a fighting art and almost more of a lifestyle. I don't know how effective it would be in the ring, but I don't think anyone who studies Ninjitsu cares. The purpoe of NInjitsu is not to win tournaments.

 

[Bam]

I took Ninjitsu for a few months a year ago before my moving out of the city forced me to stop. It was only 2 months but I still enjoyed myself. Ninjitsu is less a fighting art and almost more of a lifestyle. I don't know how effective it would be in the ring, but I don't think anyone who studies Ninjitsu cares. The purpoe of NInjitsu is not to win tournaments.

You are correct and I hope you can find a place to study.

If you are interested in working at home or with a friend there is quite a lot of info at this site.

http://www.ninjutsu.com/home.shtml

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Man...I come back from Augusta and this thread is still bumpin.
1-He who hits first, wether it be fist or foot, usually comes out the victor.
2-People are usually attacked by surprise- there is little time for set up.
3-Martial arts tournaments are battled with the conifines of rules- they are not street fights.
4-When have you ever seen a SEAL, RANGER, Marine, etc on the evening news who wasn't killed by a gun. The forces are taught everything- it's a way to keep a combative attitude.
5- Don't be so damn serious. You're more than likely to never use your skills unless you choose to by attacking someone or competeing.
6- Most fights don't have to go to the ground- only if you choose to or if you don't know what your doing on your feet. I have three guys who ended fights in the clinch against bigger stronger opponents.
7- You'd better learn how to ground fight.
8- you'd better learn how to use weapons defensively, going backwards and with no intention to stick around- you will go to jail.
Blah blah blah blah!!!!!!

 

[illusionofsize]

WOW!!!!
This thread is nuts(no offense to anyone).
I have never trained Ninjutsu so I can't comment on it's effectiveness or spirituality.
In all reality there has been an evolution in martial arts since the onset of BJJ/NHB events. Arts became more focused on "combat effectiveness" than spirituality.(which in all fairness is why martial arts came into being, so different tribes, cultures, people could fight)
But no-one can argue the beauty and " art" of a well executed wu-shu form.

I see nothing wrong with training in any one style for any one reason. If a chi -based art like ninjitsu or pa qua is your thing then hey, feel free to train in it.
If pure combat for competition or street fighting is your thing , again go for it.
If you feel that you will be more " spiritually aware" in a Muay thai training environment, I believe you will be disappointed.(not to say that you won't learn focus and discipline, you will)
If you feel that you will become an effective street fighter by taking Wu-shu, again I suspect disappointment.
If you think ninjutsu training will make you an elite assasin......I can't comment since I haven't trained in it.
Some arts are more combat effective than others. SOme are more spiritually enlightening.
Put it this way. If your 10 year old daughter were to take an art would you want it to be Muay Thai or Wu-shu?? Your answer dictates your position on the matter.
Personally I prefer combat effectivness and knowing that in tough circumstances I (or my little girl) can fight for myself.
Should I seek spritual enlightment I will join a church.

Really we're all trying to compare two different platforms of presentation.
Some of us want Ninjutsu to be rated as a ring/street fight effectivness. But as I understand it blowguns and poisons, etc are a ninja's main weapons and stealth is chosen over confrontation.So I'm not sure that we should blast poor Bam so quickly.
ButI am also not sure if his art should be considered comparable to muay thai or BJJ.
It's like comparing Tennis to ping pong.

Now if people would care to enlighten me on the art of ninjitsu.
I have read a little re koppo, and on becoming Haragei adept.
I also understand that the sword is actually different than a regular Katana?? Shorter and straighter??
AS well, how do they utilize all the powders and oils that I have heard about??

Focus on the freaky stuff like that and this thread should become more interesting.

 

[Bam]

WOW!!!!
This thread is nuts(no offense to anyone).
I have never trained Ninjutsu so I can't comment on it's effectiveness or spirituality.
In all reality there has been an evolution in martial arts since the onset of BJJ/NHB events. Arts became more focused on "combat effectiveness" than spirituality.(which in all fairness is why martial arts came into being, so different tribes, cultures, people could fight)
But no-one can argue the beauty and " art" of a well executed wu-shu form.

I see nothing wrong with training in any one style for any one reason. If a chi -based art like ninjitsu or pa qua is your thing then hey, feel free to train in it.
If pure combat for competition or street fighting is your thing , again go for it.
If you feel that you will be more " spiritually aware" in a Muay thai training environment, I believe you will be disappointed.(not to say that you won't learn focus and discipline, you will)
If you feel that you will become an effective street fighter by taking Wu-shu, again I suspect disappointment.
If you think ninjutsu training will make you an elite assasin......I can't comment since I haven't trained in it.
Some arts are more combat effective than others. SOme are more spiritually enlightening.
Put it this way. If your 10 year old daughter were to take an art would you want it to be Muay Thai or Wu-shu?? Your answer dictates your position on the matter.
Personally I prefer combat effectivness and knowing that in tough circumstances I (or my little girl) can fight for myself.
Should I seek spritual enlightment I will join a church.

Really we're all trying to compare two different platforms of presentation.
Some of us want Ninjutsu to be rated as a ring/street fight effectivness. But as I understand it blowguns and poisons, etc are a ninja's main weapons and stealth is chosen over confrontation.So I'm not sure that we should blast poor Bam so quickly.
ButI am also not sure if his art should be considered comparable to muay thai or BJJ.
It's like comparing Tennis to ping pong.

Now if people would care to enlighten me on the art of ninjitsu.
I have read a little re koppo, and on becoming Haragei adept.
I also understand that the sword is actually different than a regular Katana?? Shorter and straighter??
AS well, how do they utilize all the powders and oils that I have heard about??

Focus on the freaky stuff like that and this thread should become more interesting.

Nice post,
May I elaborate a bit?

Modern Ninjutsu is none of the

"But as I understand it blowguns and poisons, etc are a ninja's main weapons and stealth is chosen over confrontation"

stuff but is a combination of many types of forms or styles. We train in punches, blocks, kicks, grapleing, suwari waza (A form of judo), nerve attacks, locks etc. We also train in many kinds of weapons. The purpose of training in the weapons is not to use them on the street (After all who carries a sword around) but to know how to defend against them. (A baseball bat is a common weapon these days).
We train strickly for self defense and of course the personal growth that comes with training in any discipline. I have seen several students come into the dojo with an attitude and they did not last long. We take very seriously the responsibility of teaching people these potentially deadly skills.
You are correct the sword used by the Ninjas was a straight blade about 22 inches long. It was carried on the back and drawn over the head. Being a straight blade it was used slightly differently. It was very good at running through your target and could still cut but not as effectivly as a curved blade.

The "Spiritual" training is really a personal thing That I am very "Into" however it has nothing to do with the Ninjutsu training itself and nothing to do with ranking. My Sensi is very into the spiritual aspects as am I. Many practioners of other forms of martial arts also practice the spiritual aspects as well. As you said these are two different areas but when used together (My opinion) are exponentially more usefull.

 

[kerbouchard94]

Bujinkan Ninpo as taught under Hatsumi subsumes three schools on ninjutsu and six samurai schools, all of which have sword, throws, fist, kicking techniques etc. These arts are all hundreds of years old and were refined in a culture where war was a way of life and any technique that did not work was not passed on because the person that used it was DEAD. It is not a sport it does not have competitions or point sparring. If you want to truly learn go to Japan and study under Hatsumi or his Shihan and not a benevolent fraud. All of these other arts are excellent and have proven themselves time and again and as was said previously it is a personal choice. Before anyone decides it is worthless do some real research and go to the source and experience it in its true form.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

It is good to see that while I have been off training everyday that this thread continues. My point has been proven on here by people that practice the art already, "Ninjitsu is less a fighting art and almost more of a lifestyle. I don't know how effective it would be in the ring". My point from the beginning, if you enjoy it cool, but don't get on here talking about scaring people with your chi in a real life self-defense situation. That is not reality, walking on hot coals is not reality in self defense. That's all folks. Later, I am off to train.

 

[Bam]

It is good to see that while I have been off training everyday that this thread continues. My point has been proven on here by people that practice the art already, "Ninjitsu is less a fighting art and almost more of a lifestyle. I don't know how effective it would be in the ring". My point from the beginning, if you enjoy it cool, but don't get on here talking about scaring people with your chi in a real life self-defense situation. That is not reality, walking on hot coals is not reality in self defense. That's all folks. Later, I am off to train.

You still don't get it though. The tequniques that are taught are for warfare and were designed during a very warfilled time in history. A person proficient in these schools of ninjutsu can do as well as any other form. This means that on the street in a real life situation these skills are as good if not better than other set of skills. The difference is we do not spend out time in tournaments. We train to have the defensive skills necessary.

Walking on coals is a very enlightening expirence and since you have not done that your comments about it are meaningless.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Thanks "oh enlightned ignorant one", I have walked on hot coals and know that it has nothing to do with self defense, so I guess they are not entirely meaningless.

"We train in punches, blocks, kicks, grapleing, suwari waza (A form of judo), nerve attacks, locks etc." your quote bro, all I have to say is if you can't spell GRAPPLING then please don't act like you know what you are talking about when it comes to that subject. It is insulting to see, stick with the ninja stars please.

I get it dude, you guys practice in a very CONTROLLED enviroment, amongst friends and training partners that do not want to and are not trying to inflict SERIOUS bodily harm because they have to go home to their families and jobs when they are done training and do not want to get too hurt. Until you are able to get into an unpredictable format, like tournaments or a real street fight, to train you will never truly know the extent of your training and knowledge, your training can not prepare you for a sucker punch square in your nose my friend. The above mentioned situations are not controlled and your opponent could give 2 shits about whether or not you walk or even live agian. Their intention is to win or take something from you. Obviously, you have no experience in this area, so that would make your comments..................meaningless.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Spelling has nothing to do with skill in the area. I admit, he'd have presented any knowledge of his better had he spelled it correctly, but that's not the main concern here.

Don't jump to conclusions that they're not fighting and trying to inflict serious harm. They might have a rigorous training regimen, you don't know.

You said "oh enlightened ignorant one" to quote him, I believe? He never called himself ignorant.

His spelling is insulting? So is your attitude.

No training can prepare you for a sucker punch. That's what makes it a sucker punch. Unless you can see the future with your training, of course.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Thanks to jumping to his defense sweetie. No need to get your panties in a bunch hon. I have to disagree though, if he knew how to spell it maybe that would mean that he has actually studied it enough to atleast know how to spell it. By way of magazine, book, video, or actual instruction would help in his knowledge of GRAPPLING. I am just stopping by an expressing my thoughts on ninjiutsu in my free time away from training and work and that is all. I have studied it, and know 2 guys that still study it. I am familiar with how the art is trained, albeit not all regimens are the same. I have to admit, as do those guys that I know that still train ninjiutsu (they continue to train because they want to finish their study of the art and enjoy each others company as training partners), that it is not at all very effective when it comes to self defense. Did you get that? They admit to the weakness of the art in self defense. I know it is hard for you guys to accept when you have been spending countless hours and money on a system that is pretty bogus. Like I said, if you enjoy training it then that is all that matters and nothing or no one else says should matter. For me personally I am not going to give any art legitamacy that has not and refuses to prove its worth in real live combat. Maybe you should go back and reread some of your boys posts tom, how he scared an armed attacker away with his chi. Give me a break!! Dude, you can ride bam's nuts and ninjiutsu's nuts all the way to the grave for all I care, it's your life and time. If my attitude offends you then go meditate and get over it sissy. I have accomplished more in martial arts and put in more time training than most of the weekend warrior/ internet mma guru guys like, mostly just yourselfs bam and tom, could ever dare to even fathom. You wanna talk about a way of life, come train with me for a month and lets see if you can REALLY handle training as a way of life. Can you handle watching everything that you put into your body 24/7? Can you handle doing roadwork EVERY morning that you wake up? Can you handle running 60 yard sprints uphill 12-20 times after being dropped off 5-10 miles away from your workout site and running to your training facility to start sprinting after a water break? Can you handle running football stadium stairs until you puke and then running 12-20 15 second sprints? Can you handle the explosive and power phase weight work you will have to put your body through 3-4 days a week? Can you handle the hours of live wrestling combat you will have to do everyday at least 5 days a week after all of this? Can you handle the hour after practice is over drilling to perfect your weaknesses so that you can become the best at what you do? Can you train injured week after week and learn how to overcome adversity? Can you handle spending your free time breaking down film of opponents weaknesses and also your own? Can you spend at least 6-8 hours a day to your way of life???? That is living your art as a way of life.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Okay, after the first three "can you handles" I decided to stop reading. You're not impressing anyone by listing any variety of things that you claim to do. I really don't give a fuck.

Wanna sling names and call me a sissy because I call out the fact that your attitude is a bit harsh? Then fuck you, prick. Ride Bam's dick? Ride Ninjitsu's dick? What a great way to get your point across.

Can I handle watching what goes into my body 24/7? Why don't you stop jumping up and assuming that I don't. For your information, I do.

I read Bam's posts. And if you read some of my responses, I called bullshit on that. At the same time, I feel the art can have its purpose. I still don't by scaring off an armed attacker with chi. I don't believe in that.

Spending countless hours and money? I don't spend either on the art, aside from the time I'm taking to respond the this post. Again, don't jump to conclusions.

You realize you can study something without knowing how to spell it. Again, I don't think that's too common, but what if he was just taught grappling and never cared to read up on it? Or he made a simple typo? Or he was a bit drunk? Seriously, shut up.

And again, you make an assumption by calling me a weekend warrior/internet mma guru. I never claimed to be any sort of guru. Also, you have no idea what my week consists of. How do you know I don't train rigorously day in, day out?

He might spell grappling incorrectly, but you just look like a damn fool when you throw all your text together in one big block. Just reading a post by you is a fuckin' eyesore. Sissy.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

hahahaha, Well, sounds like I got under you skin a little sweetheart. I could care less if you believe what I do or not sweetie. I don't need you to believe what I put my body through, or for you to understand the sacrifices it takes to be a champion, I know what I do and I am sure some hyped up little sissy like yourself couldn't hang 3 days with me without quitting every few hours after your daily ass whippings. You have been whining on this post riding bams nuts for too damn long fucktard, that is why I called you out.

i'll break my eyesore up for you so you can focus yourself a little better. I figure that you probably do not train very hard judging by the amount of time it looks like you spend on the computer. My bad, I am sure you get in a great finger workout typing all the time.

So, that is the only "can you" that you can respond to is about watching your diet. That was the easiest one dude. You stopped reading because you know you ain't got what it takes to be a top tier athlete bro. Keep talking, you get dumber with every post.

You are right, you called bs on the same thing, but I didn't run off apologizing and nut riding over an internet discussion. How angry can you get over an internet discussion. Try training more and spending less time on the computer and not taking yourself so seriously.

Yes, I know you can spend time studying something without knowing how to spell it, I just find it hard to believe. I was probably being a bit too sarcastic there, but I won't shut up about it. If you want to act like you know what you are talking about at least spell the shit right!

My invitation remains open to you tom, come train with me and let us see how long you make it.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Man, what's with calling me all these pet names? If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were coming on to me. You're really arrogant, and that's pathetic.

Yeah, fucktard's a word.

You know, one can train hard and still have plenty of time to do other things. It's 6:30 AM here, and I've got other things to do, due to refinancing of the home. Still, I train and I eat. I don't dedicate 24/7 to it because I don't want to, not because I can't. Two different reasons entirely.

"...great finger workout typing all the time..." - Heh, aww. How immature.

Yeah, I "ain't got" what it takes to be a "top tier" athlete like yourself. I get dumber, which is why I say things like "fucktard" and "ain't got" and act arrogant. Yeah. I'm a dumbass.

Jumping to another conclusion in saying that I don't take myself seriously? Come on, my man, what's with that?

You can get very angry over an internet discussion. What's the difference between a physcial verbal altercation, or one occurring online? Words are words, either way. Unless, of course, you mean to tell me you never get heated over any sort of arguement. If so, good for you, wish I could do that. You really are amazing. What, being a top tier athlete and all.

Want me to respond to the other "can you" ramblings of yours? Okay, sure.

I could handle doing road work every morning I woke up. It's called a job, right asshole? I'm sure it's not easy work, but with proper motivation and dedication anyone can do anything, and I personally have some goals in life that I'd pursue until my last breath. So yes, if I had to do this in order to provide for myself or loved ones, surely I can and would do it.

Being dropped off 5 to 10 miles? Damn, that's a pretty big range there buddy. Can I do all that? Sure, why not? It would take proper conditioning, but I never claimed myself to be an athlete, either. As long as I'm not immobile, I can do that too.

Running football stadium stairs? Pshh, let's go climb up and down mountains and trees until we fall down from exhaustion, and then force ourselves up to go sprint even if we have injuries! Come on man, seriously, mind over matter. It's all a matter of being able to push yourself. Same shit as walking on coals.

That workout you're talking about sounds fun. Kind've like Westside, which I've ran through before. So, yes, I can do that. Don't try to make it sound like a big deal because you lift 3-4 days a week. That's normal man.

Hours of live wrestling? Shit, I thought we'd be partaking in some virtual reality wrestling against Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior. And "have to"? Why's that? Either way, I could. I wouldn't want to because I don't like wrestling much, but I could. I hope you eat a shit load of calories if you do as much shit as you say. If not, you're a fool, because the body grows stronger at rest, not when working.

What the hell does the next one mean? An hour to perfect weaknesses to be the best at what I do? Hell, I guess all I do is type online. You know, working out my fingers. I can take an hour long crack at that.

Are you a fucking motivational video? Overcome adversity? Haha, yeah man. People do that every day in life. Everything is an obstacle, and every day you have to overcome something. Either that, or give up. I haven't given up, so I guess I can do this too. As for training injured, I have before. I wouldn't anymore. So you do that, I take it? Wow, and you call me dumb?

I could watch videos of my opponents and break down their technique until the cows came home man, but I just plain wouldn't want to. You make it sound like such a task. Anyone can sit around and watch something. I wouldn't do it because I have other things I want to do with my life. If you wanna dedicate every second to this shit, fine bro, but I don't. So, it's basically like comparing apples to oranges now.

Seeing as I said yes to most of those, I think I could spend 6-8 hours a day towards my way of life. Thing is, though, I have many "ways of life". Many things I partake in, study, and enjoy doing. So, every day I put 6-8 hours towards my way of life, and then some.

Smiles!

 

[digger]

MHD --

The ultimate style puts a bullet in your head from sixty feet out. When you tell us how your style defends against that, then you can belittle other people's styles all you want.

Sticky. Top of forum. Read it.

 

[Mr.HeavyDuty]

Tom, one of the weakest rebuttles I have ever read bro. Your comments are exactly what I thought that they would be, assanine.

You could, but you have other things to do. hmmmmmmmm, I think you just don't have the heart to train HARD day in and day out. Like I said tom, you know that deep down you do not have what it takes to be a superioir athlete, and that is why you spend all your time on a computer obviously. I said don't take yourself so seriously, you obviously do judging by the way that you continue to respond mindlessly. By the way, you are still on the computer. hahahaha, yea, you COULD train hard being on the computer all day.

No, what I do I don't consider a task. It is my daily routine and I love it. I have set goals for myself and intend on achieving them and that is why I am an arrogant athlete. hahaha, I think it is so funny that you guys are getting so fired up over some words. WORDS!! Go back and read my posts digger, I have said that it should not matter what anyone thinks about you or your art, if you enjoy it that is all that matters. So keep your 60 yard long sniper shots in the closet with your geritol pops. I guess I really am amazing if I can get you guys' panties in a wad and still not think much about it.

Alright, I am off to go train. I will check in with you ladies tonight to see if this thread is still bumping. This is one of the funniest parts of my day now.

Chow!!!

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Do you ever stop jumping to conclusions? It doesn't matter what you think. I don't train that way because I don't want to. I don't find it to be enjoyable, what, training 24/7.

Yeah, we wear panties. How juvenile.

60 feet isn't the same as 60 yards, asshole. Divide by 3.

My comments are assanine? How so? I could do the things you do. I don't want to. Therefore, I don't. Don't assume that "deep down" I don't have the "heart" to train "HARD". I'm online because I'm 17, it's Summer, and between my meals, fixing up the house for the parents, training and talking with friends of mine, I like to check the forums. Usually, it's to be productive and educate myself on new things. This is just a fun part of my day too.

Cute, we have something in common.