NeW StYlE - WuT u ThInK?

[JKurz1]

Week # 1 :

Monday :

Bent Rows : 8 x 8
Rev Pull Down : 3 x 6-8
1 Arm Row : 1 x 6 ( 1 power set )
Pulldown Front : 4 x 10-15


Tuesday :

Incline DB Press : 8 x 8
Flat Press Machine : 8 x 8
Machine Press : 1 Strip Set ( 8 - 8 – 8 )


Wednesday :

Heavy Laterals : 8 x 10
Machine Press : 4 x 8-10


Thursday :

Preacher EZ Curl : 8 x 8
Concentrated curl : 3 x 10
Hammer DB : 3 x 8-10

Lying DB Ext*: 3 x 6-8
1 arm Ext : 3 x 10
Close Grip Bench : 6 x 8


Friday :

Squat : 10 x 10
Leg Curl : 6 x 8

Seated Calves 3 x 15-20
Standing Calves 3 x 10-12


WEEK 2


Monday :

Bent Rows : 12 x 12
Front Pulldown : 5 x 8-10


Tuesday :

Incline Smith : 5 x 5
Incline DB Press : 6 x 10
Pek Dec : 3 x 8-10
SS with :
Machine Press : 3 x 8-10


Wednesday :

Machine Press : 8 x 8
Laterals : 8 x 10
Bent Laterals : 4 x 8-10
Seated Row to neck : 3 x 8-10


Thursday :

Close grip Bench : 5 x 5
Lying DB Ext : 4 x 6-8
Pushdown : 4 x 10-12

Incline Curls DB : 3 x 5 , 2 x 10
Preacher EZ : 4 x 8
Hammer Rope : 3 x 12

Friday :

Squat : 10 x 10
Leg Curl : 6 x 8

Seated Calves 3 x 15-20
Standing Calves 3 x 10-12

Week 3


Monday :

Rev. Bent Rows : 5 x 6-8
Seated Rowing : 4 x 8-10
Rev. Pulldown : 4 x 8-10
Front Pulldown : 4 x 8-10


Tuesday :

Incline Bench : 3 x 3
DB Press : 4 x 6-8
Machine Press : 3 x 8-10
Pek Dec : 3 x 10-12


Wednesday :

DB Press : 10 x 10
Seated Laterals : 3 x 8-10
Up Row : 3 x 8
Rear Delt : 3 x 12

Thursday :

Lying DB Ext : 4 x 6-8
2 Arm DB Ext : 4 x 8
1 Arm Ext : 4 , 6 , 8 , 10 , 15

Alt . DB Curls : 3 x 6-8

Friday :

Squat : 5 x 5
Split Squat : 5 x 6-8
Leg Curl : 5 x 8

Seated Calves 3 x 15-20
Standing Calves 3 x 10-12

WEEK 4


Monday :

Bent Rows : 5 x 5
Seated Rowing : 3 x 8-10
Rev. Pulldown : 3 x 8-10
Front Pulldown : 3 x 15


Tuesday :

Bench Press : 10 x 10
Incline Smith : 4 x 6-8
Flyes : 2 x 12-15 ( slow and Squeeze )


Wednesday :

Smith Front Press : 1 x 3 , 5 x 5
Laterals : 5 x 8
Rear Delt : 4 x 8


Thursday :

Lying DB Ext : 4 x 6-8
Over Head Rope : 3 x 8-10
Push Down : 4 x 10

Preacher EZ : 6 x 6-8
Incl. Alt Curls : 4 , 6 , 8 , 10
Concentrated : 3 x 10-12

Friday :

Leg Press : 3 x 5 , 8 , 12 , 25 , 3 x 50
Leg Curls : 4 x 10

Seated Calves 3 x 15-20
Standing Calves 3 x 10-12

WEEK 5


Monday :

Bent Rows : 8 x 8
Rev. Pulldown : 5 x 8-10
Front Pulldown : 4 x 10-12


Tuesday :

Bench Press : 5 x 5
Incline Smith : 5 x 5
Pec Dek*: 3 x 12


Wednesday :

Db Press : 8 x 8
Laterals Seated : 5 x 10-12


Thursday :

Incl. DB curls : 2 x 4 , 6 , 8 , 10
Preacher Curls : 3 x 6-8

Close Grip Press : 5 x 5
Lying DB Ext : 3 x 6-8
Push Down : 3 x 12


Friday :

Squat : 10 x 10
Split Squat : 5 x 6

Seated Calves 3 x 15-20
Standing Calves 3 x 10-12

WEEK 6


Week 6 needs to be an easy week , to recuperate :

Monday : Chest and Back ( less than 14 Sets TOTAL )

Wednesday : Should , arms ( less than 14 sets TOTAL )

Friday : LEGS ( less than 12 Sets TOTAL )


then Repeat all 5 weeks !

 

[wnt2bBeast]

whats the point of 8x8..its going to be a very sub max weight for your main movement

 

[mekannik]

whats the point of 8x8..its going to be a very sub max weight for your main movement

Variant of the German Volume Technique (10x10)? Much more of a body building routine than anything else.

 

[JKurz1]

goal is strictly bb.............just mass............

 

[wnt2bBeast]

goal is strictly bb.............just mass............

i understand

my vote would be for more of a DC routine (shit works)

 

[JKurz1]

Why? Why not this routine? I think it could work...........no?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Why? Why not this routine? I think it could work...........no?

cant say try it and see..
give a good 6-8 weeks then decide

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Try madcow2's 5x5 routine.

I'm on week 4 and it fucking rocks.

Bodyweight is up 6lbs, strength is blowin up and arm's have grown 1/4" and I haven't done any direct arm work and I still got 5 weeks to go where the most growth occurs from the adaptive response and deloading.

 

[TheOak84]

do u take a hit of acid then make a routine?

id rather do 4x8 instead of 8x8 of anything

 

[JKurz1]

do u take a hit of acid then make a routine?

id rather do 4x8 instead of 8x8 of anything

You're an idiot........I didnt develop it and it has been proven to work by many competitors pro and amature.........no reason for you to slam it, just asking what people thought...

Thanks beast for your reply........and to everyone else.......

 

[psychedout]

Most people over at MN that have tried it absolutely love it. I would def do it on a cycle, it might be a tad much naturally IMO. I know your diet and I think you should add some more calories in if you go through with this approach -- it will prevent overtraining.

 

[Illuminati]

why so much work in the smith machine? i would switch that out. instead of doing incline on the smith, do it on an incline bench. same with your front military press. i just dont like the piece of equipment, i dont think it belongs in the gym. that's just my opinion though.
this looks very similiar to German Volume Training (GVT.) i remember reading some stuff on GVT back in the day. and it was saying that if you are going to do this type of training, pick one exercise, do the 10x10. with all the other exercises you have in there, i would be worried that you are gonna run into some overtraining issues. but as we know, everybody's body is different, and maybe you can handle it.
from what i remember (im not gonna bother to look it up right now) but GVT was something like this:

Day 1
Chest/Back

Day2
Legs/Abs

Day 3
Off

Day 4
Arms/Shoulders

Day 5
Off

Repeat, starting at Day 1

The goal of this type of training was to complete 10 sets of 10 with the same amount of weight. General rule of thumb was to take 60% of your 1rm. And you are only supposed to do 1 exercise per body part, which should be a compound movement, as opposed to an isolation movement.
I think i also remember reading that this type of routine is only reccommended for a 4 week period, and then you should switch to something else.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

ive heard of gvt before but i thought there was no accessory exercises after 10x10?? im guessing??

 

[Illuminati]

ive heard of gvt before but i thought there was no accessory exercises after 10x10?? im guessing??

you are right. with the GVT, there is no accessory work. its just the one exercise for the 10x10. then that's it.

 

[JKurz1]

Yeah, this is more volume............but the dude who posted it has some pretty friggn impressive results from it.........hey, what's better for someone with lower chronic back pain? Very light full atf squats, moderately heavy leg press, or heavy half squats? Better meaning, more benefitial........

 

[BOOEY]

why so much work in the smith machine? i would switch that out. instead of doing incline on the smith, do it on an incline bench. same with your front military press. i just dont like the piece of equipment, i dont think it belongs in the gym. that's just my opinion though.

I agree. I would replace the machine work with DB or BB exercises.

 

[JKurz1]

agreed......not sure why its in there...........anything else?

 

[JKurz1]

?

 

[Debaser]

No offense man (I know we've had arguments in the past), but you seem to thrive on constantly making up all kinds of routines...just at random. I don't really see any basis for much of it.

Rather than continuing to try these routines that look like they came out of FLEX, why not try something that's higher frequency and established a bit more, like Madcow's 5x5 or HST?

 

[JKurz1]

No offense man (I know we've had arguments in the past), but you seem to thrive on constantly making up all kinds of routines...just at random. I don't really see any basis for much of it.

Rather than continuing to try these routines that look like they came out of FLEX, why not try something that's higher frequency and established a bit more, like Madcow's 5x5 or HST?

Thanks for brightening up my thread.......Debaser - I dont make up these routines, I wish I could make the claim, but I can't. This routine was posted by a guy before attaining his pro card and I thought it looked interesting. Wanted to get the views of others, tis all.....just experimenting. I've tried 5x5 and loved it. Tired high volume, low volume, MAXOT, all with decent results. HST and WSB are the only two Ive yet to try, mainly because I like to get in the gym a minimum of 5 days.......just my preference. Until then, I guess youll have to keep "being bothered" by my worthless threads......OR, you could just ignore them.......

 

[Madcow2]

I've tried 5x5 and loved it.

From your post in the Bill Starr thread the other day http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4557877&postcount=44, I gather that the 5x5 you are refering to is the 3 day split routine and not the dual factor version of the classic Bill Starr routine. These are vastly different programs that coincidentally have the same name (although the Bill Starr routine has been the famous "5x5" for several decades now). I highly recommend a dual factor based program whether it's BS 5x5, HST, WSB or whatever. There is a very good reason why dual factor programs have been dominant around the world for a long period of time (the exception being BBing which in the vast majority of cases substitutes increased drug dosage for training knowledge and is multiple decades behind).

 

[JKurz1]

From your post in the Bill Starr thread the other day http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4557877&postcount=44, I gather that the 5x5 you are refering to is the 3 day split routine and not the dual factor version of the classic Bill Starr routine. These are vastly different programs that coincidentally have the same name (although the Bill Starr routine has been the famous "5x5" for several decades now). I highly recommend a dual factor based program whether it's BS 5x5, HST, WSB or whatever. There is a very good reason why dual factor programs have been dominant around the world for a long period of time (the exception being BBing which in the vast majority of cases substitutes increased drug dosage for training knowledge and is multiple decades behind).

I read you post and find the routine very intriquing......Is it really, not feasible to incorporate this or break it down into a M-F routine? That's the one thing holding me back, I just dont like the idea of every other idea...I understand rest is crucial, but 2 days a week is all I need.............

 

[Madcow2]

2 days a week for rest can't be a firm rule. I could give you a program that would slaughter you and require far more rest. I could give you one where you'd need less. The amound of fatigue generated and recuperation required is dependent on the volume of the program first and then an individual's tolerance and work capacity. If the only way you are going to try it is to spread the volume then do squat and a single arm exercise on M/F and save your benches and rows for T/R. Same volume just spread so you can be in the gym 5 days a week - albeit less recovery because you are now pressing T/W/R in some fashion. Kind of illogical - it's like a guy asking to come into the office every weekend even though there is no work to be done and he'll just be sitting at his desk and not being paid.

 

[JKurz1]

I see you point bro and I am a firm believer in your theory/style. My scenerio is I work in a office for 10-12 hours M-F and half day on Sat.........I've always been active and I need that training release(or a big bottle of Jack)............you see my point? If you could illustrate a 5 day in detail, I'd be forever grateful! PM me.....

 

[Debaser]

the exception being BBing which in the vast majority of cases substitutes increased drug dosage for training knowledge and is multiple decades behind

This point cannot be overemphasized, jkurz.

However, I have a solution for your wanting to be in the gym so often. Mainly, because I'm in the gym 6 days a week as well. 3 of these days involve training, but I alternate these days with either core or prehab work.

 

[JKurz1]

Ok...so what kind of core or rehab work? What would a day like that entail? Yes, I'm not sayhing I need to train heacy 6 days a week, nor am I superman........but some sort of release is necessary............would this change if someone was on AAS?

 

[gjohnson5]

You suck no matter what style u got

 

[JKurz1]

You suck no matter what style u got

You wish you could hang with my :style"......bro.

 

[gjohnson5]

You wish you could hang with my :style"......bro.

That workout in all that tough.
I think it would be more intense to do 3 sets failure instead of 8 sets of 8.
You burn yourself out doing cardio so the 8 sets will be really light weights

You'd be working out with rubber dumbells doing 8 x 8 next to some old ladies

 

[Madcow2]

I see you point bro and I am a firm believer in your theory/style. My scenerio is I work in a office for 10-12 hours M-F and half day on Sat.........I've always been active and I need that training release(or a big bottle of Jack)............you see my point? If you could illustrate a 5 day in detail, I'd be forever grateful! PM me.....

To make it a decent one I'd have to deviate so far from the 5x5 program that it would end up being customized to a large degree and making a custom program for someone who's weak points are unknown tends to be a waste. Why not take a look at the 5x5 arrangement and see what you can come up with and PM me your idea.

You could also fill in the extra days with some technique work on power cleans/snatches and make an effort to learn the olympic lifts - for the most part it's concentric only so it won't be as fatiguing and people new to the lifts don't lift enough weight to really put a wrench into the CNS. A few sets for reps, core work, and some cardio would flush out T/R giving you 5 days plus expand your arsenal of good effective lifts substantially.

I'd also recommend maybe exploring some additional interests or hobbies. To make optimal progress in the gym you must train optimally and with a 5 on/2 off requirement that's going to get in the way of many programs. It's a big world with a lot of cool stuff to explore, try, and learn about. Maybe pick up a musical instrument or some type of art work. There are so many things I wish I had taken the time to try to learn. If you have a bit of extra time give something a shot. You'll probably make better progress in the gym, enjoy it more when you are there, and balance out the "gym or Jack only" equation.

 

[mekannik]

You could also fill in the extra days with some technique work on power cleans/snatches and make an effort to learn the olympic lifts - for the most part it's concentric only so it won't be as fatiguing and people new to the lifts don't lift enough weight to really put a wrench into the CNS. A few sets for reps, core work, and some cardio would flush out T/R giving you 5 days plus expand your arsenal of good effective lifts substantially.

.... It's a big world with a lot of cool stuff to explore, try, and learn about. Maybe pick up a musical instrument or some type of art work. There are so many things I wish I had taken the time to try to learn.

That is a bold statement/comparison. Olympic lifiting to playing a musical instrument???

JKurz - what about just some GPP (general physical prerparedness) drills on alternate lifting days? Sled dragging? Overhead weight walking? Strongman stuff? You will get cardio, concentric only training, and a physical/mental release all in a short amount of time.

My only concern about learning/utilizing the olympic lifts is that - even with a light load - the impact to the CNS can be significant. Along with the soreness imparted to the traps. Using just 40 kilos on hanging power snatch can leave you with a reminder for 3-4 days.

 

[Debaser]

Yeah...train the mind.

You're so passionate about bodybuilding, why not spend 2 of those nights a week researching sports science or something? Or, *gasp*, read a book?

 

[Madcow2]

That is a bold statement/comparison. Olympic lifiting to playing a musical instrument???

It wasn't a comparison, merely a suggestion for an alternative worthwhile use of time as training M-F doesn't fit with the program in question. For a person stating it's either training at night after work or a large bottle of Jack Daniels, it's not exactly a bad thing to broaden one's horizons outside the gym and develop some other interests.

 

[JKurz1]

You missed my point with the JD comparison bro..........I need a PHYSICAL release from sitting in an office all day and building up stress.........I have a ton of extra-curr. activities, but none give me the release as a good, intense sweat......it's comparable to sex.........just like Arnold said.........and I get enough of that later in the day, so that leaves training........Why won't a 2 day on 1 off work with this routine? Hit every bp 2x a week, short, and intense? One day heavy low reps, the next session, high rep high volume?

 

[Madcow2]

.Why won't a 2 day on 1 off work with this routine? Hit every bp 2x a week, short, and intense? One day heavy low reps, the next session, high rep high volume?

First, the problem is that if you look at the program it doesn't remotely resemble that. It's 3 full body workouts. Every bodypart is hit each time and in the first phase you are squatting 3x per week. The reps are in sets of 5 initially and sets of 3 later. You are doing 5x5 with a target weight and a pyramid of 5 sets culinating in a single target set of 5 for the exercises performed 2x per week (3x3 and 1x3 targets in the intensity phase).

Second, I thought you needed to train M-F, not 2 on 1 off which by it's nature will have your training rotating to all kinds of days of the week over time (7 days in a week).

I'm not going to tell you how to live and train but merely that the way the 5x5 is arranged, you're going to have to bring in weekends to get 5 days and not hurt something somewhere. Personally, I'd opt for core, arms, cardio (a good interval sprinting program), and stretching on the off days and not screw with it or draw up something different more to your own liking. For most people the 3x weekly is a benefit as it allows extra time to be spent doing sport specific training, general conditioning, or whatever else.

You can certainly split the volume up more over a week but changing the sets, reps, scheduling of the phases, exercises, volume, and intensity pattern risks compromising the program. So that leaves frequency which is the distribution of volume. If you really want to try it, just move the exercises around to something that makes sense for you but people who change the other factors generally blow it up as a rule.

 

[JKurz1]

I did the routine for a week, but too many neg. responses from you guys so I decided to nix it........felt really sore (esp. chest), but prob. just becuase it was "different"...as I feel thats all it takes every once in awhile........I'm trying to muster up a way to incorporate madcows 5x5 into a 5-6 day split...........right now it's looking like this:

M - CHEST/CLVS
T-BACK WIDTH/TRAPS
W-DELTS, REARS
TR- ARMS
FRIDAY - QUADS/HAMS
SAT = BACK THICKNESS

 

[Debaser]

The whole point of the program is the frequency of hitting squats (and pretty much the rest of the body) three times a week, without isolation exercises (maybe 1 or 2 tops).

This program works extremely well. So does HST. Both hit the entire body frequently, with relatively low volume. Hmmm...maybe they're onto something here. All you're doing is completely bastardizing the program by turning it into another 5 or 6 day split routine, and utterly eliminating the premise of the program.

Here's a thought, try the program the way it's actually presented and proven to be effective, rather than completely changing it.

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah, when I said you can move some things around that still entails squatting 3x per week, bench/row twice, DL/chins/military once for that required sets/reps. Move what you want but make sure you are doing all of this - and to be honest there aren't that many ways to set it up and the 3 day version is likely the most optimal. At an absolute minimum you have to leave the squats alone, they are the fundemental core of the program and to a large extent drive the entire loading/deloading pattern which is the whole reason why it works.

 

[psychedout]

I personally find HST to be a bit to extreme in terms of low volume high frequency. DC seems like a good choice for someone like me and you (JKrurz) who typically go with a pro-style routine.

 

[Debaser]

If there comes a time where people wake up and say,

"Wait a minute, maybe the pros don't know a lot about training. Maybe with 5+ grams of gear, and 8000 calories a day, pretty much the only thing that matters is that they lift weights."

It will never come too soon.

 

[Madcow2]

I'll go a step further and be flat out honest without holding back. This isn't directed at you by any means but it's a good long rant and an explantion that's a bit less PC than usual for me but might prove beneficial because I'll just lay it on the line and tell it like it is.

The typical split routines that have people training a bodypart once per week are shit - I would basically just recommend that everyone stop them right now and move on. They are so fundementally bad that it's not worth typing up an explanation for them - the whole reason why people arrived at this idea was because they didn't understand science and misapplied thinking that muscles needed to fully recover before training them again (look up the timeframe for complete tissue remodeling from a single bout of weight training - it's beyond a month as I recall but in any event it is far far longer than any of these splits allows for). These splits are a major reason why most people in the gym are spinning their wheels.

The other major issue is that most guys put together their split, choose exercises, and then just go in the gym and work hard at it (and some don't even do that) - even using the 5x5 exercises and split as laid out under the 3 day protocol that I recommend (basically the best exercises and a solid frequency pattern) there is a major issue that will inhibit gains. The issue is that volume and intensity are not being regulated over a period to provide a training stimulus - this is the essence of loading/deloading and managing volume under dual factor theory which I will say again is at the near universal acceptance level everywhere in the world at the highest levels of research and athletic coaching but curiously most BBers couldn't give and explanation should their life depend on it.

For a novice lifter this isn't a big deal, for an experienced lifter - they just won't progress or at least no where close to optimally and once they get past a point even that progress will stop. Basically, the only way an experienced lifter is going to get gains is to use drugs and create an environment where just about any stimulus will work because the body's response is so exagerated. That said, even the drugged lifter would progress much faster (or could use a lower dosage and achieve the same results) under a proper program.

Look at the popularity of Needsize's 5x5 program. It uses good exercises albeit the 3 day split is present but the whole key is the progressive overload and systematically adding weight thereby increasing total volume. Also notice that stepping back and beginning again serves to deload. This is why people have success with it. There is no magic, it's basically just a rough form of dual factor training that he arrived at by paying attention to what worked over a period of time. If more people were applying some brain power basic training methodology wouldn't be so foreign.

It kills me that the majority of the BBing/fitness world is so advanced when it comes to drug usage and diet yet so far behind when it comes to training. Yes I've had training conversations with multiple pros and worked for months right next to a guy who got his pro card just a few months later - he was unfit to coach a highschool team, his PT clients made shit for progress, his training was no better or more intense than many others at the gym 1/2 his size - his diet/dedication was admirable but if not for the drugs he'd be just another shmoe around the gym wondering why he's plateaued. He's not an exception to the rule either, anyone who knows training and watches the vast majority of Pro BBers train knows they don't know anything in about 10 minutes and usually much faster. If they open their mouths on the subject it's nearly instantaneous. Shit, look at the 1980's BBers training on nearly all machines and not squatting or DLing. They looked marvelous, way better than in the previous decade yet the training stimuli was garbage in comparison - the only difference were the dosages.

EDIT: Okay, I do give props to Chris Duffy (pro back in the early 1990's for getting people to DL again by speaking out a lot on its effectiveness).

BBing is almost totally focused on optimizing and increasing the response (drugs/diet) rather than ensuring that the highest quality stimulus (training) is applied. This is why kids and men get frustrated after tweaking their diets and taking all kinds of supplements yet getting little gains - they look at the programs some of the big guys are using and their's are not much different so they look to drugs and make some post like "I'm plateaued at 6' 185lbs after 2 years of training, diet and training are perfect, help me plan a cycle." I'm certainly not going to judge someone for using roids and I myself have used them but a lot of younger guys just want to see some progress, they may want 20lbs but if they were at least progressing consistently they'd have more patience and likely wouldn't be as quick to involve themselves in activities that could cause major issues in their lives down the road. Some will certainly still use drugs but I'd venture the proportion would be quite a bit less and hopefully those who have aspirations beyond what natural training can provide.

The issue is that good training informaiton is simply not common and seems almost hidden. Most guys at Elite can probably tell you a ton about drugs/diet but ask them to explain dual factor theory or name a good book on training (hint: Arnold has not written one) and they are going to be lost - and that's simply an unacceptable imbalance to my mind. I don't know how training knowledge got obscured and glossed over for a few decades (I imagine the Nautilus machine crap, the near extinction of Olympic Lifting, and the white washed clean faux image of BBing that Weider has promoted to death over the years) but I'm a bit tired of honest people looking for training info and finding voodoo bullshit rather than basic fundemental information - I'm not even talking cutting edge here just basic training applied around the world.

So if you ever wonder what purpose I might have in taking the time to write out lengthy posts and fully explain training info and make it digestable and available, this is it. I'm not trying to change the world or clean up BBing but I'd like to see training knowledge in the general population advanced to the point where someone can look for and actually find basic quality information that will allow them to progress. I make no money from this, my line of work is so removed from this it isn't even funny. When I see stuff like that printed in Flex, Muscle&Fitness, and Men's Health - I'll be damn happy and I bet there will be a lot more people making progress in the gym and enjoying the gratification that comes with laying out a plan and accruing results from solid execution.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

damn well said bruh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cmdubs]

Madcow you really seem to know your shit!

How do you feel about an Old School type training program. People use to talk about it all the time around here and I just found a link and thought about giving it a go.

Don't know if you're familiar with it but in a nutshell it's a few compound movements, squat, deadlift, Bench, OH Press, BB Row, Dips, BB Curl - 3 day split. You squat twice a week 5X3 on Monday and 5X5 on Friday with the same weight and add 5-10 lbs a week. 20 rep deadlifts on Monday and Wednesday also increasing weight each week with the other lifts thrown in.

 

[TheOak84]

im excited to try this program (5x5), im starting it in 5 weeks. im not goin into it expecting major gains, but ill be happy with what i get.

im doin good with what im doin now, as far as adding weight to exercises.

im pretty sure this routine is gonna make me feel like am unstoppable tank.

 

[JKurz1]

I'll go a step further and be flat out honest without holding back. This isn't directed at you by any means but it's a good long rant and an explantion that's a bit less PC than usual for me but might prove beneficial because I'll just lay it on the line and tell it like it is.

The typical split routines that have people training a bodypart once per week are shit - I would basically just recommend that everyone stop them right now and move on. They are so fundementally bad that it's not worth typing up an explanation for them - the whole reason why people arrived at this idea was because they didn't understand science and misapplied thinking that muscles needed to fully recover before training them again (look up the timeframe for complete tissue remodeling from a single bout of weight training - it's beyond a month as I recall but in any event it is far far longer than any of these splits allows for). These splits are a major reason why most people in the gym are spinning their wheels.

The other major issue is that most guys put together their split, choose exercises, and then just go in the gym and work hard at it (and some don't even do that) - even using the 5x5 exercises and split as laid out under the 3 day protocol that I recommend (basically the best exercises and a solid frequency pattern) there is a major issue that will inhibit gains. The issue is that volume and intensity are not being regulated over a period to provide a training stimulus - this is the essence of loading/deloading and managing volume under dual factor theory which I will say again is at the near universal acceptance level everywhere in the world at the highest levels of research and athletic coaching but curiously most BBers couldn't give and explanation should their life depend on it.

For a novice lifter this isn't a big deal, for an experienced lifter - they just won't progress or at least no where close to optimally and once they get past a point even that progress will stop. Basically, the only way an experienced lifter is going to get gains is to use drugs and create an environment where just about any stimulus will work because the body's response is so exagerated. That said, even the drugged lifter would progress much faster (or could use a lower dosage and achieve the same results) under a proper program.

Look at the popularity of Needsize's 5x5 program. It uses good exercises albeit the 3 day split is present but the whole key is the progressive overload and systematically adding weight thereby increasing total volume. Also notice that stepping back and beginning again serves to deload. This is why people have success with it. There is no magic, it's basically just a rough form of dual factor training that he arrived at by paying attention to what worked over a period of time. If more people were applying some brain power basic training methodology wouldn't be so foreign.

It kills me that the majority of the BBing/fitness world is so advanced when it comes to drug usage and diet yet so far behind when it comes to training. Yes I've had training conversations with multiple pros and worked for months right next to a guy who got his pro card just a few months later - he was unfit to coach a highschool team, his PT clients made shit for progress, his training was no better or more intense than many others at the gym 1/2 his size - his diet/dedication was admirable but if not for the drugs he'd be just another shmoe around the gym wondering why he's plateaued. He's not an exception to the rule either, anyone who knows training and watches the vast majority of Pro BBers train knows they don't know anything in about 10 minutes and usually much faster. If they open their mouths on the subject it's nearly instantaneous. Shit, look at the 1980's BBers training on nearly all machines and not squatting or DLing. They looked marvelous, way better than in the previous decade yet the training stimuli was garbage in comparison - the only difference were the dosages.

EDIT: Okay, I do give props to Chris Duffy (pro back in the early 1990's for getting people to DL again by speaking out a lot on its effectiveness).

BBing is almost totally focused on optimizing and increasing the response (drugs/diet) rather than ensuring that the highest quality stimulus (training) is applied. This is why kids and men get frustrated after tweaking their diets and taking all kinds of supplements yet getting little gains - they look at the programs some of the big guys are using and their's are not much different so they look to drugs and make some post like "I'm plateaued at 6' 185lbs after 2 years of training, diet and training are perfect, help me plan a cycle." I'm certainly not going to judge someone for using roids and I myself have used them but a lot of younger guys just want to see some progress, they may want 20lbs but if they were at least progressing consistently they'd have more patience and likely wouldn't be as quick to involve themselves in activities that could cause major issues in their lives down the road. Some will certainly still use drugs but I'd venture the proportion would be quite a bit less and hopefully those who have aspirations beyond what natural training can provide.

The issue is that good training informaiton is simply not common and seems almost hidden. Most guys at Elite can probably tell you a ton about drugs/diet but ask them to explain dual factor theory or name a good book on training (hint: Arnold has not written one) and they are going to be lost - and that's simply an unacceptable imbalance to my mind. I don't know how training knowledge got obscured and glossed over for a few decades (I imagine the Nautilus machine crap, the near extinction of Olympic Lifting, and the white washed clean faux image of BBing that Weider has promoted to death over the years) but I'm a bit tired of honest people looking for training info and finding voodoo bullshit rather than basic fundemental information - I'm not even talking cutting edge here just basic training applied around the world.

So if you ever wonder what purpose I might have in taking the time to write out lengthy posts and fully explain training info and make it digestable and available, this is it. I'm not trying to change the world or clean up BBing but I'd like to see training knowledge in the general population advanced to the point where someone can look for and actually find basic quality information that will allow them to progress. I make no money from this, my line of work is so removed from this it isn't even funny. When I see stuff like that printed in Flex, Muscle&Fitness, and Men's Health - I'll be damn happy and I bet there will be a lot more people making progress in the gym and enjoying the gratification that comes with laying out a plan and accruing results from solid execution.

Damn brutha.........you could sell ice to the eskimos......you've completely convinced me, so I'm in...if 3 days is what I get, three days it is....I'lll follow your lead, post a log, and follow it to the t......if I can do core work on two of the off days, all the better........the other two with be stretching, light cardio, rest and FOOD.....let's roll.

 

[Madcow2]

Madcow you really seem to know your shit!

How do you feel about an Old School type training program. People use to talk about it all the time around here and I just found a link and thought about giving it a go.

Don't know if you're familiar with it but in a nutshell it's a few compound movements, squat, deadlift, Bench, OH Press, BB Row, Dips, BB Curl - 3 day split. You squat twice a week 5X3 on Monday and 5X5 on Friday with the same weight and add 5-10 lbs a week. 20 rep deadlifts on Monday and Wednesday also increasing weight each week with the other lifts thrown in.

Let me first say that I believe my knowledge of training is decent at best. I understand the basic theories, have a knowledge of just about every exercise out there in BBing/PL/OL (one handed Barbell snatch/C&J being a notable exception but there are few lifters around today that are even aware of them), I can design training programs, peak an athlete for an event, and identify and address weak points in lifts. That's about what I think everyone who is seriously involved in weight training should have at their disposal whether for PL/OL/BBing or athletic performance. There are plenty of guys out there who are so far ahead that I will read any piece that is even associated with their name. Let me put it this way, I know the basics - if I seem to be a major repository of knowledge it is simply due to the profound deficit of training knowledge found around BBing and fitness which is exactly what I am trying to address. If anyone is interested in knowing what sources I look to and respect for information (the list is fairly common with a few personal add-ons) this post gives some details on people, books, sites, etc.. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3

Concerning 'Old School Training', I'm not familiar with the specific program you are refering to but from the looks of it it is doing a number of things right.
1) Concentrating on exercises that really matter and saving limited recuperative ability so that one can tolerate additional volume/frequency in those lifts.
2) It seems to be setup reasonably well - similar to a lot of other general purpose programs (non-sport specific).
3) From the weight increases it seems to be getting at progressive increasing of training load which is fairly essential.

The bones I would pick (and just from your short description as I don't really know the program) would first be the 20 rep DLs. I don't know if they have an actual reason for perscribing something like this and putting it in the methodology but I have a hard time even dreaming a logical reason up. The second issue would be that I like to optimize programs and make the best use of time by compressing the training cycle as much as possible and standard weekly poundage increases tend to be inefficient in my mind. I'd rather load hard in a single block, deload, and get back at it (although it's not always that simple but that's the jist and it's my opinion that this provides the best progress over a fixed period of time). Think of it like a race car driver - they are either hard on the gas or hard on the break for nearly the entire race (the exception is early to mid-point in the corner itself where the car is in balance and they are waiting to mash the gas again).

 

[psychedout]

If there comes a time where people wake up and say,

"Wait a minute, maybe the pros don't know a lot about training. Maybe with 5+ grams of gear, and 8000 calories a day, pretty much the only thing that matters is that they lift weights."

It will never come too soon.

/

 

[psychedout]

.

 

[Madcow2]

Damn brutha.........you could sell ice to the eskimos......you've completely convinced me, so I'm in...if 3 days is what I get, three days it is....I'lll follow your lead, post a log, and follow it to the t......if I can do core work on two of the off days, all the better........the other two with be stretching, light cardio, rest and FOOD.....let's roll.

Sometimes I kind of let it all hang out. Usually I like to be more PC because moderate constant pressure is more effective over time than a single huge barrage but sometimes one has to let it go. There was a lot in that post but I assure you that if you walk into just about any Div1, Pro, or Olympic training facility in this country or the world and have the coaches read it over there won't be disagreement. It really is basic stuff and the acceptance is near universal.

Also, I don't want you to think that the 5x5 is the only way to skin a cat. It's proven very very effective accross a broad range of athletes over decades but more importantly it's an easy to understand and follow example of applied dual factor theory (easy learning combined with the amount of hypertrophy it produces is the whole reason I perscribe it to BBers). This is the real key to take away and one of the major issues I mentioned above that is totally absent in just about every BBing program with the exception of HST yet athletes of the highest calibur all around the world have been trained like this for a long time now whether they be Olympic lifters, sprinters, throwers, cyclists, football players, power lifters etc... We are talking US, China, Eastern Block, Soviets... - everywhere elite athletes are trained you will find this overwhelmingly common nearly without exception. In using the 5x5 framework one is able to come away with a really clear understanding of dual factor application and their own tolerances that will allow them to gradually adapt the methodology to their own framework and eventually arrive at a macrocycle type program that specifically addresses various needs over time (such a program could handle 6 months of training for competitive BBer culminating in arrival at the day of the contest).

Anyway, if you wanted to try another dual factor program geared to hypertrophy there is one in post #3 I believe right below the 5x5 explanation. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134233013 This has 4 workouts per week and follows a 2-3/1 protocol for loading/deloading. If you want my opinion it would be to stick to the 5x5 first and do exactly what you said some core, strentching and cardio on the off days. I'm a huge fan of interval sprinting programs for cardio in strength athletes/BBers. An interval methodology can also be applied to the bike, eliptical, swimming using a timer or distance to break it up.

 

[psychedout]

I don't mean to hijack, but I actually like some of the stuff coming out of this thread.

My goal right now is to shed fat and maintain lean mass. I am not using any AAS or anything except a bit of ephedrine. You guys think this is appropriate?

JKurz1, I think you might like it:


Monday:
Incline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5 (Yates style, momentum gets to out of hand otherwise)
ATF Hack Squats 5x20 (Real hacks, with a barbell behind back)
Skull Crushers 5x5

Wednesday:
Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Weighted Chinups 5x5
Weighted Hyper 3x10
Barbell Curl 5x5
Standing or Seated Calve Raise 5x10-15

Friday:
Flat Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5 (Yates style)
ATF Barbell Squats 5x20
Weighted Dip 5x5

High reps on the legs is because I am more than happy with thigh development at the moment.

Critique? Constructive criticism welcome. I will likely do cardio on opposing days. Nothing crazy though, 30 minutes of walking on a treadmill. Sunday would be rest.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I can't give you any more Karma, madcow, but I will say one thing: We need more people like you out there. Not 'cause everyone else is lacking basic knowledge in terms of training, but people who want to spread the knowledge like a disease so one day people will all be aware of what really works. Then, rather than a bunch of people trying to pursue the all-too-common once a week split, they'll all work towards optimizing something else that's lacking. It's like progress has stagnated, not only for each individual lifting that way, but for all of us on a whole because the world won't get past the old methodology and move on to newer, and greater, things.

 

[psychedout]

Up for some critique on my routine?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Me? I'd take out the isolation exercises (barbell curls, weighted dips, skull crushers, heel raises), and if you really must do 20-rep squats, don't do 5 sets of them. I'd do 2x20, if you're insisting on sticking with higher reps.

Any reason for not doing deadlifts?

It looks good, if you plan on coupling it with a kind've deloading, rather than just straight session-to-session lifting. Really, I should've just pointed at the 5x5 routine as MC outlined and said "That," since I see little reason to change what works so wonderfully, especially your first time through.

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks Tom - I appreciate the compliment. It's kind of funny, I remember when everyone was doing 3-on/1-off splits and some even am/pm workouts - just like the pros. Then one day everyone starts talking about overtraining and we wind up at the point where people are afraid to work a muscle more than once per week and now that becomes a workout the pros use. Curiously between these extremes at no time did I ever see evidence that the BBing community in general ever thought that the major issue at hand was actually volume and not frequency by itself (frequency serves primarily to distribute volume but volume is the real key to overtraining).

psychedout:

Like I said before, it's not essential that frequency be 3 days per week this is just the way a few of the programs we've discussed have been setup. There are dual factor based programs with outrageous frequency out there but for the most part they are highly specialized. I just don't want people to think that they absolutely must adhere to 3x per week as total volume is really the key more than the number of times you are in the gym.

I like the exercise selection for the most part.

For rows you might consider reading this thread it provides 2 techniques (the best one being the post 2nd from the bottom on page 1). Rows are best done dynamically as the back responds like nothing else to dynamic pulling and this is essentially how real rowing is done - not at a constant pace but where the force continues to accelerate the oar through the water continually building speed. At a minimum it's a really good read: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

I don't see any pulling from the floor which is a primary fundemental exercise for the body similar to the squat. Although the deadlift is the most common if you are familiar with clean or snatch grip high pulls (or even pulling to the full extension shrug position) this is a good substitute as the loads are less and it is primarily a concentric only exercise so less breakdown and inroads to recovery while cutting. The olympic lifts and their many variations have a lot of uses and are tremendously effective for building the back/traps.

The reps for hacks and squats look high. This is 100 reps per workout at working weight I'm assuming. I prefer lower reps and I can't remember doing anything in the 20 range outside of rehab (plus I lose count much beyond 6-8 - not entirely a joke it's happened a lot). It's a fairly massive amount of work and the rep range is non-standard, but more importantly it's going to have a major impact on your volume. You might consider just less leg specific work and freeing up some of that recovery for the other exercises. The high reps aren't going to make you grow a ton but the volume is going to have a major impact on your training/recovery which in my mind isn't worth it for maintenance work.

One thing I also like to do is to stick with a certain exercise and improve it. Like in life you can only get good at a limited amount of activities at once. You aren't by any means way out there but I'd rather see MWF being flat bench/overhead/flat bench or flat/incline/flat or any variation. It's not as if you need to neglect incline for a long period - most training blocks don't extend beyond 2-6 weeks at the extremes so the one left out could be subbed back in easily in the next phase. Maybe some light speed/acceleration work on one day and then heavier pressing the other day during the week. Knit-picky stuff but I've seen a lot of success from people handling it like that and just as training muscles more frequently than once per week is a good thing so is performing a focus exercise as progression in many exercises results from training specificity. More something to keep in mind than something that is absolutely essential to implement.

So my last one is probably the biggest. Just like I said about the 5x5 program, the exercise selection, order, sets/reps can be perfect but it won't work well without a systematic planned way of regulating volume/intensity. For an experienced trainee, this is essential, even the biggest factor providing nothing else is hugely out of line. Yet, having seen so many workouts posted on this board over the years (I was a member back in 2001ish and forgot my password) I don't think I've seen more than a handful that have addressed anything beyond the exercise selection, split, and sometimes sets/reps. I know you don't care for the HST program but here more than anywhere else is the key to why it is successful - no magic formulas, just another way of skinning a cat but this part is key (like first having a cat to skin) and they have spent time designing the program to account for it and manage it. I will also just throw out that training to failure is not an option as this is about the best thing I can do to make sure that people won't grow - it's just horrible for results and it really shows it's face for a natural trainee. Below are a few links on dual factor theory. You might also look at the Bill Starr 5x5 program as it's specifically setup as a dual factor program (there's a lot of decent info and links stuffed in that thread too) http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215&page=1&pp=20. I would view your own program in that context, figure out what your max weights would be and work backward over a period of weeks so that you are scaling up the poundages to hit records in weeks 3/4 if you are already conditioned for this workout or 5/6 if you want to start pretty light and gradually work up. That's the loading phase with the real key being the final 2 weeks. After that slash the volume in a major way and perhaps even move to 2x per week frequency for 2 weeks - this is deloading which allows your body to recuperate and gains to accrue. Think of training stimulus as not a single workout but a block of workouts that tells the body that it must adapt because the load is frequent within the time period and accelerating. You are basically working yourself into overtraining and accruing a recovery deficit so when the load is reduced the body is able to catchup and adapt.

Dual Factor Links Here:

This is a good basic explanation provided by one of the finer strength coaches on the planet: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3

This is an article written for Core magazine:
http://www.readthecore.com/200501/reynolds-dual-factor-training.htm

This is an explanation that I wrote a while back - kind of redundant with the above but if you like my overly wordy and detailed style of explanation here's another one:
From post #11 - #15 in this thread with #15 being the bulk of it: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686

EDITS: my spelling sucks

 

[seizer]

Hey Fellas,

I am currently working the madcow split and it is ridiculous (good). Im stronger than I've ever been in my life, i dont feel bogged down by complicated splits and im gaining like mad (whether you see this as good or bad, i got a few small sretch marks on my arms - this is growth fo sho). Its so simple too, you just need to record your weekly numbers and your set. Throw in some core work once a week if need be and watch the body do its magic. Props to madcow2 for his devotion to guiding people to the light side!

 

[gjohnson5]

I'll go a step further and be flat out honest without holding back. This isn't directed at you by any means but it's a good long rant and an explantion that's a bit less PC than usual for me but might prove beneficial because I'll just lay it on the line and tell it like it is.
.
.
.

K to you
What are you stats?

 

[psychedout]

Monday:
Incline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
Squats 3x5
Skull Crushers 5x5

Wednesday:
Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Weighted Chinups 5x5
Deadlift 5x3 or 5x5
Barbell Curl 5x5
Standing or Seated Calve Raise 5x10-15

Friday:
Flat Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
Sqauts 3x3
Weighted Dip 5x5

Okay revisions made. ^^Here is how it looks now.

 

[Madcow2]

K to you
What are you stats?

6'3" about mid-250s but I like to target 240 range in shape as I'm older and have no reason to weight more (keeping LBM off is more of an issue than gaining it these days). Getting over a torn labrum, moderate upperback injury, and shredded ankle due to traumatic inversion from slipping down the stairs - all back to back over the past 2 years (none WL caused). I can now bench without pain, pull from the floor and row without pain, but inflexibility in my ankle has got my squat rotating so that needs to be fixed. I probably haven't trained seriously in over 5 years due to family/work/grad school. This will likely not change as I have major work committments coming up and hopefully will be starting a business if I can get funding together. At this point I'm happy to be able to lift without pain and enjoy myself in the gym. For the past year or so I'd watch kids lifting in the gym, shitty technique and all, and be so jealous that they could do all that without pain. Now I can finally lift again and I'm happy just for that. Not very inspriational but I've made peace with the situation (this was hard) and really enjoy myself despite some limitations that I'm still working through.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Enjoying what you're doing is all that really matters.

 

[Madcow2]

Okay revisions made. ^^Here is how it looks now.

I like it better but I only see the change to squats. You could also take the arm work and do higher reps like 3x8-10 if you wanted, it's fluff for the most part and IMO does more to maximize the current size of the arm than drive long term progress of arm development (usually the compound lifts handle this). That pattern is still incline/military/flat M/W/F and there's no account for how volume/intensity will be utilized - and in all honesty, that's the major driver of success.

Before you start, you want to have a weight progression planned out as well as a method of backing-off/deloading to recovery before you hit it again. As a rule athletes can handle heavy concentrated loading for 1-3 weeks. Most are around 10-14 days. There are world level lifters who can't load for 3 weeks so it's not a contest but more determining how your body works best. So if you did 4-6 weeks the first series would be weight progression and acclimation (if using 6 weeks start light) while the final 2 would be about as heavy as you can manage or what I term 'records' should you have a relevant previous best (alternatively you can test the lifts beforehand to determine the range but if this workout/exercises are new you might find them move up by the time you get there).

 

[psychedout]

I like it better but I only see the change to squats. You could also take the arm work and do higher reps like 3x8-10 if you wanted, it's fluff for the most part and IMO does more to maximize the current size of the arm than drive long term progress of arm development (usually the compound lifts handle this). That pattern is still incline/military/flat M/W/F and there's no account for how volume/intensity will be utilized - and in all honesty, that's the major driver of success.

Before you start, you want to have a weight progression planned out as well as a method of backing-off/deloading to recovery before you hit it again. As a rule athletes can handle heavy concentrated loading for 1-3 weeks. Most are around 10-14 days. There are world level lifters who can't load for 3 weeks so it's not a contest but more determining how your body works best. So if you did 4-6 weeks the first series would be weight progression and acclimation (if using 6 weeks start light) while the final 2 would be about as heavy as you can manage or what I term 'records' should you have a relevant previous best (alternatively you can test the lifts beforehand to determine the range but if this workout/exercises are new you might find them move up by the time you get there).

Yeah. I was going to do the "ramp up intesity" method for a lack of better description. I was gonna do 5-6 weeks, then one week of no weight training whatsoever.

Kinda like needsizes 5x5 method. Same principle. Start off with a weight that light (well not really, but you know what I mean) and do the reps slow and extremely controlled and really focus on feeling it in the muscle. Then start to add the pounds as the routine goes on.

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah. I was going to do the "ramp up intesity" method for a lack of better description. I was gonna do 5-6 weeks, then one week of no weight training whatsoever.

Kinda like needsizes 5x5 method. Same principle. Start off with a weight that light (well not really, but you know what I mean) and do the reps slow and extremely controlled and really focus on feeling it in the muscle. Then start to add the pounds as the routine goes on.

So a few things:

1) That's a pretty crude type of loading/deloading, you can make it a lot more efficient (effective) by modeling after the Bill Starr 5x5 (which is a big reason I use it as an example because it's an easy good model - a more advanced model of dual factor training is the Smolov squat program that I posted the other day but it is not essential that one use anything more than basic loading/deloading). Alternatively use the basics that I talked about above in working backward from your records. I was illustrating before the reasons why needsize's program was effective for people and that it was similar to a dual factor methodology but I do not believe it to be optimal. When deloading, it is rarely if ever optimal to totally slash training all together. A very good and common way is to drastically decrease volume (maybe cut frequency in some cases) but keep intensity high. The only time you see longer periods of zero training is immediately preceding an important event/contest where one needs to take deloading to an extreme in order to peak for the event. Even these periods rarely if ever entail full weeks of zero training.

2) Slow or super slow style training can have it's uses in some capacities but for consistently stimulating muscle growth, strengh, or performance increases it's really not something you want to be doing or focusing on. The jist of this is that muscles exist to perform work by generating force. Work = Force X Distance where Force = Mass X Acceleration. Work is closely related to volume in that a proxy for distance is reps X sets as one is moving through a range of motion repeatedly. That leaves Force. Obviously Mass is equivalent to the amount of weight being used which is being increased over the training cycle. Notice the multiplications sign attaching Acceleration to mass - this says an unbelievable amount about how acceleration plays into the generation of force and the stimulation of a muscle. Think about what you are doing when you lift a weight at a constant pace - you are actually exerting force to begin the inertia and then basically monitoring force by restricting or enhancing it as needed to keep the bar moving at a given pace. Basically, you are not generating maximal force throughout the range of motion - you are doing just enough to keep it moving at pace. To maximize the force generating stimulus you are supplying to the muscle consider performing a rep by exerting force to begin the inertia and then continuously applying maximal force to the bar to accelerate it throughout the range of motion (obviously the weight has to be reasonable so you don't throw the thing). Similar to a rower in crew, he doesn't put the oar in the water get it moving and then just move it at a constant pace. He continues to pull at maximum force and this accelerates the oar through the water. This is optimal force output and it will make a massive difference in your training success. Even though the Force equation is the classic Newton's 2nd law the majority of people ignore the 2nd component, acceleration, and focus only on mass (which many don't even systematically control for along with the volume of work). Acceleration has a multiplicative effect on mass and this greatly affects the quality of the stimulus.

I'm not talking about jerking the weight but merely applying smooth acceleration. Getting the feel by using bands similar to westside training is a good example. To keep the bar moving at a constant pace when using bands it is necessary to continuously accelerate tha bar as a rubber band does not resist in a linear fashion but closer to exponential (probably not 100% accurate but the first little bit of stretch is magnitudes less intensive than the final increment and not 1:1 proportional to the distance the band is stretched). This is why Westside uses bands but even though they are training to increase their 1RM whereas BBers train for size they are using the same stimulus to increase force on a muscle - they just target different ranges of optimal work output (1RM vs. the higher range where hypertrophy is stimulated).

 

[cmdubs]

so with the program Psychedout has outlined....if your 5X5 squat max was 315 you would start the program with a weight significantly lower on the first week and work your way up so you would be breaking records in weeks 5-6 (using 335 in week 6)....then deload...start your second cycle with slightly higher poundages that you began the first cycle with?

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah, that would probably work. So much of it depends on an individual's tolerances though but in general judging by the workout it's probably about right for most people. If you are doing 6 weeks you need to start pretty damn light to where you should be moving through the first few weeks at an easy clip. One thing is you don't want to start too heavy because it kills it so you might want to hit 305 on week 5 and 325 on week 6 depending on how week 5 went. If you fail on week 5 keep the weight the same. If you have a relevant max and are used to this type of training then you might set 300 for week 4, 325 for week 5, and 335 for week 6 as an example (you can adjust week to week based upon the previous week too). I also wouldn't do this twice a week as this will be too much for most people in the squat. You can setup 5x5 on one day and 1x5 on the second where you are pyramiding through 5 sets to get the volume but hitting a single set of 5 with top weight. Obviously these records and weight progressions are independent of each other as you can do more for 1x5 than 5x5.

I didn't go into this before since we've had a lot of other stuff on the plate and he doesn't intend to work hard on his legs so I assume the squat is additive to volume but not a major driver for him as he likely won't be pushing records. But for others, this is important.

EDIT: you know what, his program has moved around a bit so some of the stuff I attribute to it above is not valid to his most recent example. I really suggest just running the 5x5 as detailed in this thread http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215 and making life easier on yourself. The two designers are two of the greatest strength coaches to walk the planet. There is nothing I nor anyone else can really change to make it better except to tailer the loading/deloading to the tolerances of an individual athlete but I'd need a reference first and most people don't have relevantly applicable training and this program tends to hit the sweet spot for most everyone anyway. There's really no way to eek any more gains from it. It looks and is very simple but it is absolutely comprehensive, demanding, and maximally effective. It's just an ultra effective proven program that's been in use for almost 30 years and a very easy to understand example of dual factor theory. Basically, ideal for BBers looking to increase muscle mass or general athletes bulking (powercleans and high pulls can be substituted into the routine easily for athletes requiring increases in explosive power).

 

[Tom Treutlein]

MC - What would you recommend one do if they have a job starting this Monday, that requires four hours of straight physical labor (no breaks, literally), lifting 40-70 lb. boxes and shifting them, sorting them, moving them, at a pace of about 500 boxes per hour, and who just started the 5x5 routine this week?

Obviously, we're talking about me. So now, I started the routine Monday, and just worked out an hour ago, then it dawned on me - I start working at UPS come Monday. What should I do? It's definitely going to be a bitch working four hours, for five nights a week, while trying to bulk and do this routine. At the same time, I have little else to do, so I could probably get lots of sleep and food. I already take in 20x my bodyweight in calories or so, and can easily cram more at this point.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

You're lifting 40-70lbs at a rate of 500 boxes per hour? That seems abit extreme man.

I worked a pretty hard job where I had to fill bags with 5/8" gravel from a hopper, seal them and then pick them up, walk a couple feet and stack them on a pallet, 26 bags per pallet. Each bag weighed 115-135lbs. In 8 hours the most I ever did was 9 pallets and that was a pretty hard day. That's 234 bags, and a total weight moved of roughly 26,910-31,590lbs per 8 hour shift.

That's a pretty hard days work considering it's like carrying a sandbag each time.

At your job, 40-70lbs per box, 500 per hour, in 4 hours that's 80,000-140,000lbs in "4" hours. Do you actually have to bend down and pick these boxes up, or grab from one spot and twist to another to set it down or what? I just find it hard to believe you could pick that many boxes up in 4 hours at that pace. 500 boxes per hour equals 8.3 boxes per minute, 1 40-70lbs box every 7.5 seconds.

That job must suck. So do you actually have to lift each of these boxes every time? I'm not trying to imply that you're fibbing about your job. It's just that's an "ASSLOAD" of work in 4 hours man.

 

[Madcow2]

The worst thing that can happen is you have to scale back. I'm assuming you aren't going to totally quit working out until you get accustomed to the workload. It isn't ideal since you are introducing two loads simultaneously (unless you quit another one) but you have to do something so give it a shot. Just eat and rest a lot.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Yeah, the first 6-9 months of the job sucks balls. It's grunt work, and they make everyone in UPS do it. I have family in the business (division manager over NY), and she started about 15 years ago. Did the same crap I'll be doing. The work is insane, but it pays off. I don't want to get into a rant about all the good things the job entails (unless someone wants me to), but I can say that I'm excited to start this Monday.

And I do pick them up from about knee-height. They roll down a conveyor/slide, and just keep coming. I have the sheet discussing workloads and how it's not a job for anyone (all info given by the company), and it says 425 boxes per hour for loaders, and 1000 per hour for unloaders. I believe those who unload trucks have two people per truck.

I also have to stack to about 10 feet high (or however high the UPS truck is inside), 40-70 lb. boxes on average. Granted, there are some things that're 10 lbs. or 30, 5 lbs. or whatever, but the average boxes are 40-70 lbs.

But yes, that's how it is. Four hours, all that work, five nights a week. But fuck, if I can go through that for 6-9 months, I'm promoted to a part-time supervisor, no doubt. After that, there's no ceiling, so hopefully I'll catch up with my family one day.

I'm so trying the Smolov Squat Program once this job gets easier.

Oh, and I know I'm making this long, but they've had college football captains, and people that were captains of their college baseball teams or whatever work for them, and they complained the work was harder than what their coach had them do.

Oh yeah. I'm screwed.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

All I gotta say is EAT ALOT of protein, carbs and fats. Jack your calories up to 4,500-5,000 a day seriously. You could be burning 250 calories per hour in one of thsoe 4 hour shifts. At that point instead of eating 4,000 calories per day and gaining you're only using 3,000 of them and struggling. See what I'm saying?

Also no matter what, get 8 hours sleep a night. I've met people that went to school and worked that said they couldn't get 8 hours and generally it was because they'd rather stay up an extra hour or 2 chatting or watching tv. Get your sleep and eat enough and you should still be able to gain because 40-70lbs boxes aren't that heavy, but the pace and volume of the work is fatiguing.

Take a multi-vitamin/mineral twice a day. One after breakfast and one after your 4 hour shift.

I'd also use creatine and keep a 64oz pop bottle with a squeeze mouth on it handy and fucking drink from it super quick every 10 minutes or so. No point in getting dehydrated from 4 hours of sweat inducing work. Besides that drink a gallon of water a day for 1.5 gallons total per day.

This is what I would do. I'm sure you'll be fine. So I'll say good work because luck is not a factor.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

All the advice you gave is dead on - exactly what I planned on doing, aside from the creatine. Planning on 10 hours of sleep, along with tons of food. 3500 cals now (roughly) - 4000 minimum then, with 4500 coming in frequently.

I'm SO tearing shit up!