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NELSON and a.m cardio enthusiasts.. interesting read!

  • Thread starter Thread starter satchboogie
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satchboogie

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By Joe DiAngelo
Manhattan Personal Trainer


24 May 2003
Cardio on empty stomach? YES OR NO?

Let's take a look at the reasoning for doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach...

1. Glycogen is depleted therefore more fat is burned - This is the major benefit people who push this method use to support their position. What they fail to realize is that anyone with weight training experience has (or should have) more muscle than is needed to sustain a healthy life. All of this extra muscle is detrimental to the survival of a human! Why? First of all, the individual body has one purpose in life. That purpose is survival. Fat is a much more efficient energy source for survival because it is not energy costly - it does not require calories to sustain. On top of this, fat is slower burning, as it is more calories dense. Therefore muscle will be burned before fat when in a state of starvation, as fat would keep you alive longer! That's the catch - just because glycogen stores are depleted that doesn't mean the body will just go straight to fat stores for its energy. How great that would be! Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. In the morning, glycogen is substantially depleted, in effect, so is ATP. If you have read some of my other articles you would know that ATP is the only source of energy for muscular contraction.

Heavy productive weight training depletes glycogen and ATP with each contraction. ATP is not only the fuel for muscular contraction, it also plays a large role in protein synthesis and repair itself. After weight training ATP and glycogen are depleted (heavy weight training uses the anaerobic glycolysis mechanism on ATP production), and time is needed for glycogen stores to replenish. Glycogen replenishment can take up to 3 days to complete! If you deplete more glycogen than is necessary you are putting your body through unnecessary stress, which will inhibit your bodies ability to build muscle! Less ATP means less energy for proteins synthesis. It's apparent that you want to stimulate as much muscle growth as possible, with the smallest amount of glycogen and ATP depletion, which means that you should train as little as possible, while still achieving the desired results.

So how does this matter in this situation? Cardio in the morning on an empty stomach means cardio with little glycogen, and thus little ATP. Remember that cardiovascular work requires muscle fibers to contract. Just because an activity is aerobic doesn't mean it does not require muscle fibers to perform the work. The primary source of contraction during aerobic work is the Type I muscle fibers. They are called upon during aerobic work because they have a long fatigue threshold meaning - they can maintain contraction for long periods of time. Type I fibers use the oxidative phosphorylation (Kreb's cycle and electron transport) - an aerobic mechanism for energy production. This is the method of energy production in which the body metabolizes carbohydrates and fats to produce energy. The body may also use protein when carbohydrate and/or fat energy are not available through a process called gluconeogenesis. Carbs are used primarily for this, and consequently in aerobic work. This method of energy production produces, bar far, the most amount of energy. You can literally keep going forever until you pass out with this energy system. The reason for this is because the body will catabolize itself in order to meet energy demands. You guessed it - IT WILL BREAK DOWN MUSCLE TISSUE FOR ENERGY. Don't get me wrong here, the body will also break down fat for energy. I'm sure you have been taught in high school biology that fat is the preferred energy source during aerobic exercise. This is completely true for those who do not have any "excess" muscle sitting on their bones. You see, when we weight train we create an environment in which the body is forced to synthesize new proteins in order to protect itself from future stress. This is a basic principle in weight training - super compensation and overload. Overload is the means in inducing progressive super compensation. The body will not synthesize protein it doesn't need. This matters because during aerobic exercise the body has three choices in going about meeting the energy requirements. It can...

1. Use stored glycogen.

2. Use stored fat.

3. Use stored amino acids (muscle).

When we do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach we pretty much eliminate option one. Muscle glycogen stores can never be 100% depleted, if they were we wouldn't be able to move. But, there are three places where glycogen can be found in the body (remember - we don't actually eat glycogen). The first place is in the liver, the second place is in the muscles, and the third place is in the blood stream. In the morning, after your 6-10 hours with no energy (food) liver glycogen will be just about depleted, blood glycogen will have been burned for energy, and muscle glycogen will have been severely depleted. What this means is that your body is in a state of extreme catabolism, it is literally breaking down muscle at an alarming rate. This is because when the liver runs out of glycogen it takes alanine, arginine and the other substrates, from the muscles in order to make more. This is muscle breakdown (atrophy). After waking up, you start to do activities (yes, going to the bathroom and watching TV is an "activity"). What this means is that you are increasing the bodies immediate energy requirement, which means - more muscle being broken down to meet energy needs. Then, the worst thing you can do at this time is to introduce aerobic activity. This means another increase in energy requirement, and further increase in muscle catabolism. Not a good situation to put your body in. Simply having a light meal before this activity would prevent all of this. The body would be taken out of its extremely catabolic state, it would have immediate energy other than muscle to use as fuel, and you will also have more energy to do your cardio with. More effort going into your cardio equals more benefits coming out of it.

2. Increased metabolism for the rest of the day - This one is completely sensible. The thing is - the amount of food and the amount or glycogen you posses have no effect on this. Cardio in the morning is NOT a bad thing; cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the bad thing. The solution to muscle catabolism? Eat before your cardio.

That is, in a nutshell, why cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is not beneficial
 
I guess it sort of makes sense, but using that logic, you would have to burn away all muscle to get your body to burn fat.
 
i guess all the pros that do cardio in AM on empty stomach while preping for the show are WRONG, yet somehow they DONT loose their size...........MAGIC
 
not saying i agree with it.
just thought its an interesting read after the recent debates.
 
If one follows that logic, it is impossible to ever sustain more than a survivable amount of muscle. Clearly that is untrue.
 
It is impossible to lose fat without losing a little bit of muscle. Thats why people bulk and then cut, two steps forward and one step back. By saying, "eat a meal" before you do cardio reminds me of those guys in my gym who run the treadmill while sipping on a glucose drink. Doesnt that defeat the purpose? As long as there is glucose in your blood, your body will burn that instead of fat. So the theory behind running in the morning on an empty stomache is: burn as much fat as you can and then replenish your glycogen stores as soon as you are done for minimal muscle loss.
 
I think Andy13 had a great post on AM Cardio... LOL ROFLMFAO...

No seriously... It was a good post. -- the laughing was in reference to something else.

C-ditty
 
toilet hamster said:
It is impossible to lose fat without losing a little bit of muscle. Thats why people bulk and then cut, two steps forward and one step back. By saying, "eat a meal" before you do cardio reminds me of those guys in my gym who run the treadmill while sipping on a glucose drink. Doesnt that defeat the purpose? As long as there is glucose in your blood, your body will burn that instead of fat. So the theory behind running in the morning on an empty stomache is: burn as much fat as you can and then replenish your glycogen stores as soon as you are done for minimal muscle loss.

You hit the nail on the head there - its nearly impossible to prevent muscle wasting while trying to lose fat no matter what kind of cardio you do, unless you are doing a ton of anabolics !

That being said, I have never noticed a loss of strength by doing regular cardio in the morning, and any size loss was extremely minimal.
 
when dr. atkins came up with his then radical diet plan, people thought he was nuts. a few decades later and he's a dead genius.

same case for jimi hendix, einstein, and freud.

nelson may be up to something here, and although some have a hard time accepting his views on a.m cardio, he may just be on to something much bigger than we're ready to accept!
 
serge said:
i guess all the pros that do cardio in AM on empty stomach while preping for the show are WRONG, yet somehow they DONT loose their size...........MAGIC
Studies,studies,baloney!

DING!!!!!
(Sigh) This is going to be a never ending debate,Lots of shit looks good on paper,and alot of it doesn't work when applied...........

Hell even Montel Williams does the same routine and has nothing but praise for the program.......It has worked everytime i applied it.Morn cardio on an empty stomach,after fasting....WORKS!


RADAR
 
satchboogie said:
when dr. atkins came up with his then radical diet plan, people thought he was nuts. a few decades later and he's a dead genius.

same case for jimi hendix, einstein, and freud.

nelson may be up to something here, and although some have a hard time accepting his views on a.m cardio, he may just be on to something much bigger than we're ready to accept!

But the idea of doing cardio after feeding is the traditional one, that´s what doctors and nutritionists always told us, challenging this concept is rather new.

The old myth is that you should not exercise on an empty stomach.


For me the major concern here is whether glycogen stores are badly depleted or not after a night of fasting, and I guess that will depend on one´s metabolism and diet.People that consume larger quantities of carbo have more glycogen stored and will probable be less depleted after 8hs fasting. People doing keto diets or even diets that restrict carbo after 6 PM may be unable to keep up with exercising after fasting for the night.

See, If liver and muscle glycogen stores are significantly depleted, performance will suffer , some protein may be broken, and you will not get a significant post training increase in RMR and TEA. If they are enough to energize the session, so it´s better to enjoy a low insulin/high adrenalin and glucagon scenario that 7-8 hs of fasting will offer.

Bottomline, if you are able to perform well without feeding first, I think you will benefit from an increased RMR and TEA (result of a good performance with high intensity)and an increased FFA oxidation ( low insulin, high adrenalin/glucagon metabolic scenario).

If you CANNOT perform well, then you should consume carbos DURING exercise. See, consuming carbos BEFORE will lead to an insulin release and a possible rebound hypoglicemia and a paradoxal premature depletion of muscle glycogen. Complex carbs and even frutose are not better alternatives pre-training because they will not be readly avaiable to provide glucose ( not to mention possible gastrointestinal distress from frutose).

Consuming sugar DURING exercise, however, will not cause an insulin surge because the sympathetic response to exercise will, through adrenalin, inhibit pancreas beta cell output.Concurrently, exercise itself augments glucose absorption by muscles so the exogenous glucose moves into the cells with a lower insulin requirement.Yes, you will be energizing training as you consume glucose, but you are concerned about performing well, and remember that beyond 25 to 30% MAX VO2 fat oxidation will remain stable, you don´t burn extra fat by increasing intensity, so you are not exchanging fuels by drinking sugars during exercise, you will continue to burn fat and will make a grueling cardio session possible and have all the benefits that comes with it.
 
BTW, consuming protein is not a good option either, since the " muscle protein sparing " effect will come from deamination of the glucogenic aminoacids ( mostly BCAAs) and conversion in glucose, so in fact is a long way around to provide the real protein savior : glucose itself.
 
I´m sorry, I know I should have edited the last response instead of writing another, but I´m trying to get my avanglar with 500 posts and I hate post whoring...



Ops...
 
Rio 2001 said:
I´m sorry, I know I should have edited the last response instead of writing another, but I´m trying to get my avanglar with 500 posts and I hate post whoring...



Ops...

a good place to pile up some posts is the chat & conversation forum.
 
Okay...

I do cardio on an empty stomach most of the time. I haven't lost my size. If you're not comfortable with it though, THEN DON"T DO IT! problem solved.
 
all these years i have tried both ways, empty stomach A.M. and post food consumption P.M. cardio. i never noticed a substantial difference in results from either method. For me, i got the best results doing brief(20-25min), medium intensity cardio immediately after brief(35-50 min) and super intense weight training sessions(1- 1 1/2 min rest between sets with heavy weight). i found this to be the best formula for shedding fat. i feel that my body is already in a fat burning state by the time i immediately start the cardio and the cardio is brief enough so that it is not as catabolic on the body. don't know if i'm right though. just works good for me :-)
 
I've done an hour on the treadmill EVERY morning for the last 12 weeks, lost about 25lbs, gained LBM and strength. Morning cardio is not catabolic like people make it out to be.
 
JG1 said:
I've done an hour on the treadmill EVERY morning for the last 12 weeks, lost about 25lbs, gained LBM and strength. Morning cardio is not catabolic like people make it out to be.

What intensity?

Walking?
 
Lift Chief said:


What intensity?

Walking?

4.0mph/3 degree incline on the treadmill.

Just bumped my cardio up from 7 hours/week to 11 and the fat is just melting away.
 
Ive tried every way of doing cardio and I can offer form personal experience that the results achieved from doing cardio on hte morning on an empty stomach with eca will yield results that are beyond comparison with any other way.

Every competetive BB I know does cardio this way to get to 4-5% for a show. It Works. PERIOD!!!
 
The only people that are disputing the effectiveness are those are too damn lazy to do cardio and instead rely on drugs to lose weight.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE Person that I know of, that has done regular cardio in the AM with dedication that didn't have excellent results. And NO, strength loss has never been an issue for any of them.
 
poantrex said:
The only people that are disputing the effectiveness are those are too damn lazy to do cardio and instead rely on drugs to lose weight.



Yeah, right.
 
poantrex said:
The only people that are disputing the effectiveness are those are too damn lazy to do cardio and instead rely on drugs to lose weight.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE Person that I know of, that has done regular cardio in the AM with dedication that didn't have excellent results. And NO, strength loss has never been an issue for any of them.

I am on week two of doing 40-60 minutes of AM cardio... took one day off last Saturday. Already I am leaner and my strength was actually better this week. I think you are correct. I too searched for the study to support my lazy ass from getting out of bed.
 
poantrex said:
The only people that are disputing the effectiveness are those are too damn lazy to do cardio and instead rely on drugs to lose weight.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE Person that I know of, that has done regular cardio in the AM with dedication that didn't have excellent results. And NO, strength loss has never been an issue for any of them.

Bro, it ain't worth it. Nelson will never concede to being wrong regardless of how strong the evidence to the contrary is. It's a futile task.
 
Juice Authority said:


Bro, it ain't worth it. Nelson will never concede to being wrong regardless of how strong the evidence to the contrary is. It's a futile task.


Way to stay out of my way JA.

I have done considerable AM cardio. Big waste of time. I got far more ripped eating less and training right. For the NPC Championships I got down to 6% bf with no cardio and no clen. How did you do in the NPC's JA?
 
Nelson Montana said:

Way to stay out of my way JA.

I have done considerable AM cardio. Big waste of time. I got far more ripped eating less and training right. For the NPC Championships I got down to 6% bf with no cardio and no clen. How did you do in the NPC's JA?

Are you asking me what I do? Well, when cutting I would pop 2 NYC's at 6AM. By 6:30AM I would get on the threadmill on an empty stomach and run for about 45 minutes at 65%. Afterwards, I would have egg whites, oatmeal and a cup of coffee and go to work.
 
There goes personal experience again as gospel!!! Nelson

That may have worked for you JA but some people don't need cardio to cut well.

Why can't we all be genetic freaks like Nelson!!!!!
 
keep bashing and bullshit off this fuckin thread.

going around in circles aint gonna get anybody anywhere!

nelson is sitting on a new concept not yet accepted by the majority but is definitely worth looking into. i wouldnt be surprised if in 5 years time, a.m cardio will be remembered in the same fashion as the 'for a great morning workout eat a huge bowl of pasta before bedtime'.
 
I do agree with you satchboogie on your point. The cardio that they do may not be necessary considering the calories that muscle burns. I am a strong proponent of dieting. I find a lot of guys I know will do cardio to help burn fat but I have two points here:

1. Fine tuned their diet a little better
2. And if they did their training the right way they would have the same effectiveness as their cardio

Hitting two birds with one stone. Having more energy for work out for harder contractions and more muscle development and at the same time burning more calaries

I like the concept and see your point. I in no way was bashing or bull shit in previous post if you were referring to me.
 
So you want to end the thread with your observation that Nelson is on to this new concept that will be discovered in the years ahead and lock everyone else out that argues common sense? It's really not much of an argument, you can lose weight working out and dieting and you can also lose weight working out, dieting, AND doing cardio on an empty stomach.What nelson is saying is that the former works for him, what most of us are saying is the latter works for us. Big deal! Different strokes for different folks. Nelson's problem is that he has to right and only his way really works and we all know that not to be true. :)

Why not just live and let live, why make a big argument about it?

jb




satchboogie said:
keep bashing and bullshit off this fuckin thread.

going around in circles aint gonna get anybody anywhere!

nelson is sitting on a new concept not yet accepted by the majority but is definitely worth looking into. i wouldnt be surprised if in 5 years time, a.m cardio will be remembered in the same fashion as the 'for a great morning workout eat a huge bowl of pasta before bedtime'.
 
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No exloding I want to here what others have to say, you started it satch and its good thus far.

BUMP
 
the intensity level i use is 70% max heart rate, which for my age, weight is about 154bpm. for me, this is not super intense, it is moderately intense. everyone is different though, so you should shoot for 70% max heart rate.
 
Cardio is just more calorie expenditure. The same thing can be accomplished many ways, more effectively, and with less catabolism.

And YES THERE ARE STUDIES ON THIS. Do a search. Long distance runners have high cortisol and low T levels.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Cardio is just more calorie expenditure. The same thing can be accomplished many ways, more effectively, and with less catabolism.

And YES THERE ARE STUDIES ON THIS. Do a search. Long distance runners have high cortisol and low T levels.

Nearly every pro bodybuilder and every person that I know that has done a bodybuilding show has used cardio to shave off fat. I know for a fact that David Henry (who just won his pro card) does not, but he is an exception not the rule. Some people do not need cardio and some do.

I think all this discussion about whether cardio is effective or not depends on the individual. You can show me study after study refuting or supporting cardio for fat loss and in the end I point to my personal study of actually doing it on a consistent basis... my conclusion: AM Cardio works for me.
 
The_Eviscerator said:


Nearly every pro bodybuilder and every person that I know that has done a bodybuilding show has used cardio to shave off fat. I know for a fact that David Henry (who just won his pro card) does not, but he is an exception not the rule. Some people do not need cardio and some do.

I think all this discussion about whether cardio is effective or not depends on the individual. You can show me study after study refuting or supporting cardio for fat loss and in the end I point to my personal study of actually doing it on a consistent basis... my conclusion: AM Cardio works for me.




Digging a hole with a spoon works too. But it isn't as effective as using a shoval.

And that goes for everybody.
 
OK, now bear with me for a second. I know that in the end all it comes down to is calories burned. So this CAN be done with diet alone, but some individuals do not seem to respond as well, which is not to say they do not respond at all. That being said, there could be another system at work that we yet to discover and document. One that i am thinking of is the adaptive responce of the body, in where it adapts the body to perform any given task efficiently. Running may force the body to adapt itself to that function of rapid movement by reducing excess weight which does not help in that movement, in this case it's fat. Anyway i'm just rambling here so no matter.
 
Nelson Montana said:





Digging a hole with a spoon works too. But it isn't as effective as using a shoval.

And that goes for everybody.

:rolleyes: Oh that's right... and the timing of your meals and macronutritional ratios doesn't matter either.

Nelson, I don't doubt that you have found some magical combo that works for you... but some of us aren't naturally skinny. Judging from your pictures... you were a very lean hard gainer. Cardio does not make sense for you. I, on the other hand, gain weight easily, and cardio does force my body to drop body fat.

Once again... to each their own.
 
gwl9dta4 said:
OK, now bear with me for a second. I know that in the end all it comes down to is calories burned. So this CAN be done with diet alone, but some individuals do not seem to respond as well, which is not to say they do not respond at all. That being said, there could be another system at work that we yet to discover and document. One that i am thinking of is the adaptive responce of the body, in where it adapts the body to perform any given task efficiently. Running may force the body to adapt itself to that function of rapid movement by reducing excess weight which does not help in that movement, in this case it's fat. Anyway i'm just rambling here so no matter.

well if all you do is run, then your body will actually get rid of all the muscle it's not using. and store fat, because fat is a lighter energy source to fuel long runs.

when you weight train and do cardio, you body adjusts to the agrregate total of the activities you do. if you wake up early, run, eat something, go to work, train, then work some more, then go to bed, your body will adapt to become good at:

waking up early, running, eating something, going to work, training, working some more, then going to bed.
 
am cardio

am cardio on empty stomach is the only way to get extremely lean. the anabolics take care of the muscle wasting part especially if you are taking a good dose of anavar, he he
 
Nelson asserts that cardio is simply more burned calories.

Observe:


Medline/PubMed Citation | Related Articles in PubMed | Download to Citation Matcher

Biochem. Soc. Trans. (2001) 29, (774–777) (Printed in Great Britain)


Uncoupling protein 3 biological activity
J. P. Giacobino1

Département de Biochimie Médicale, Centre Médical Universitaire, CH-1211 Genève 4, Switzerland

The hypothesis that uncoupling protein 3 (UCP3) is an uncoupling protein involved in heat dissipation is not unequivocally supported. An update of in vitro, ex vivo and in vivo studies testing this hypothesis is presented. Data are provided showing that exercise induces a fatty acid-dependent increase in muscle UCP3 mRNA in humans. The proposed positive correlation between glycolytic capacity and UCP3 level in various muscle-fibre types in the mouse is reassessed. Finally, an association between an intronic polymorphism of UCP3 and adiposity is reported.

In 1997, i.e. 21 years after the first report on uncoupling protein (UCP) 1, two novel members of the mitochondrial carrier family were discovered which displayed high ( 55%) amino acid sequence identity to UCP1. Based on these identities the two novel proteins were considered as possible UCPs and named UCP2 and UCP3 [1,2]. They were found to be highly expressed not only in rodents but also in humans; UCP2 in most tissues studied [1] and UCP3 mainly in skeletal muscle [2]. Since the discovery of UCP2 and UCP3 many experimental approaches have been developed to test the hypothesis that these proteins might be uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation and, therefore, participate in heat dissipation. In this presentation we will focus on UCP3.

…and then later…

An intriguing aspect of the biological role of UCP3 is its possible interaction with glucose uptake. A relationship between UCP3 expression and glucose uptake has been suggested in both rodents and humans. Indeed, in transgenic mice overexpressing UCP3 in their skeletal muscle, an increased insulin sensitivity was observed [12]. Furthermore, in L6 myotubes, UCP3 transfection was found to increase glucose transport. This phenomenon was mediated by activation of the phosphoinositide 3-kinase-dependent pathway [16]. Moreover, overexpression of GLUT4 in mice caused an up-regulation of UCP3 in skeletal muscle [17]. In humans, the level of UCP3 mRNA in skeletal muscle of type II diabetic patients was lower than in control subjects [18]. There was also a positive correlation between UCP3 expression and whole-body insulin-mediated glucose utilization among diabetic patients [18]. These results suggest that glucose utilization or, in general, an overflow of substrate positively modulates UCP3 expression. They also suggest the opposite hypothesis, i.e. that UCP3 improves insulin sensitivity. If this were true then stimulation of UCP3 activity might help to correct insulin resistance.

A model of physical exercise in humans was used to investigate the effect of free fatty acids (FFA) and/or glucose oxidation on UCP3 mRNA level. This study was performed in collaboration with Dr P. Schrauwen's group in the Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. Seven healthy untrained men exercised at 50% O2max for 2 h and then rested for 4 h. Skeletal-muscle biopsies and blood samples were taken before and 0, 1 and 4 h after exercise. To modulate plasma FFA levels, the experiment was performed twice, once after a fasting period and once with glucose ingestion. UCP3 mRNA was determined by competitive reverse transcriptase PCR. In the fasted state, plasma FFA levels increased during exercise whereas they were unchanged after glucose ingestion. Also, fat oxidation was higher after fasting. In the fasted state UCP3 mRNA expression was increased 4 h after exercise. This increase was prevented by glucose ingestion. In conclusion, our data suggest that the up-regulation of UCP3 mRNA following exercise is not a direct effect of exercise, but rather an effect of increased FFA availability/oxidation and that during exercise there is no correlation in skeletal muscle between glucose utilization and UCP3 expression.


So the exercise causes...what? AN INCREASE IN FFA OXIDATION, and what is the UCP3 expression correlation to glucose utilization? NONE. It is a separate mechanism altogether. What could it be? Let's look...


UCP3 protein and fasting

Fasting was repeatedly shown to increase dramatically muscle UCP3 mRNA in rats and mice [4–6]. Two studies reported that the increase in rat UCP3 protein induced by fasting was less than half the increase of UCP3 mRNA in experiments carried out in parallel [15,20]. Our data confirmed these results which altogether indicated that, in fasting, the amplitude of UCP3 changes at the mRNA level are strongly damped down when the amount of protein is considered. This suggests a regulation of UCP3 expression at the translational level.
The phenomenon of the increase in UCP3 expression during fasting, called 'the fasting paradox', is therefore still observed, although at a lower level, when UCP3 protein instead of mRNA is measured.

The fasting paradox, it's called...I am looking into it. See that good evidence that the body actually specifically accelerates fatloss in a fasted state? Sure, other factors impact the degree, and I am perusing other studies to find those factors and to what degree they impact things.

UCP3 genetic studies

Up to now, the results of UCP3 genetic studies are rather controversial and only weak associations have been described between some UCP3 variants and obesity traits.
We have analysed, among 734 subjects from the Québec Family Study (QFS), a new GA repeat microsatellite located in UCP3 gene intervening sequence 6 (GAIVS6). Covariance analysis across genotypes for different adiposity, resting energy expenditure and glucose metabolism variables was undertaken with age and sex, plus body fat and body mass for non-adiposity phenotypes, as covariates. We found strong associations between GAIVS6 and body-mass index, percentage of body fat, the sum of six skin-fold thickness and leptin level. Homozygotes for the GAIVS6 240 bp alleles (15% frequency in the QFS) showed higher adiposity than subjects with the GAIVS6 238 bp allele (70% in QFS). These results suggest that some alleles of UCP3 might contribute to the aetiology of human obesity.
Altogether, the data presented support the view that UCP3 is thermogenic but the idea that it might be thermoregulatory is still controversial.


References
1 Boss, O., Samec, S., Paoloni-Giacobino, A., Rossier, C., Dulloo, A., Seydoux, J., Muzzin, P. and Giacobino, J. P. (1997) FEBS Lett. 408, 39–42
Medline 1st Citation 2nd
2 Fleury, C., Neverova, M., Collins, S., Raimbault, S., Champigny, O., Levi-Meyrueis, C., Bouillaud, F., Seldin, M. F., Surwit, R. S., Ricquier, D. and Warden, C. H. (1997) Nat. Genet. 15, 269–272
Medline 1st Citation 2nd

This study not only references, factually, the enhanced fatburning aspect of exercise after fasting, but also addresses the issue that I had brought up concerning some sort of mechanism by which fat was actually burned specifically with preference, while muscle was specifically preserved.

Also, consider the impact that exercise has on mitochondria…how do the mitochondria replicate themselves? When they get too large, they divide, that’s how. What would an enhanced mitochondria population result in?

THINK about that.

Exercise impacts these things other than calories:
VO2 max
a-v O2 difference
Mitochondria
Heart rate, both resting and during exercise
Blood Pressure
Metabolism

Cardio is NOT simply the expenditure of calories. Not by a long shot.
 
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The_Eviscerator said:


Nice post Fukken!


Ooh, give me a break. You understand that post?

I'd like to hear your take on it.


And by the way. You think I came to my conclusions based solely on my personal experience? I've trained hundreds of people of all types and weight training caused more fat loss than cardio every time. You see, I used cardio in my training and my clients for years. But higher volume, high rep weight training works better.

This is the problem with this board. As long as some long complex evaluation is given, everyone is too intimidated to question it so they just agree. I've also ( too often) seen people being called "knowledgable" when they never had an original thought in their life. They just agree or disagree or post studies. I've even seen one so called "knowledgable" member post supplement definitions from a catalogue and he was heralded as being "brilliant!". It's laughable.

I'm not going to debate this post because it's been done to death.
 
poantrex said:
Mods - is there a way to block posts by certain individuals so I don't see them? Thanks

Click on "profile" of that person, then "ignore".

Nelson - valid point on the "good post just because it has complicated words" people. However FS is not one of those people and has proved himself many, many, many, many times, and deserves more credibility than the people who "ooh" at big words. Look at AF for more.
 
Nelson Montana said:

Ooh, give me a break. You understand that post?

I'd like to hear your take on it.

Do I sense a little condescension?


You see, I used cardio in my training and my clients for years. But higher volume, high rep weight training works better.


You may be correct, but the crux of the study is the importance of fasting and its role in accelerating fat loss. It appears that the study shows an increase in fat oxidation and a decrease in protein loss when accompanied by exercise in a fasted state. I may be wrong, but I assume the same results could be achieved by doing AM fasted high volume/high rep training.

I prefer to do my weight training with lower volume, and more weight. thus... I add cardio in the AM.
 
poantrex said:
Mods - is there a way to block posts by certain individuals so I don't see them? Thanks

Just go to your profile button and add whomevers name that offends you and you will never see any of their posts.
 
I wasn't accusing FS of that.

As I metioned to someone else, if you do low volume training with cardio, it isnt low volome. Cardio is still exercising. Use that time to do high rep, low rest training and your results will be much better. Guaranteed.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I wasn't accusing FS of that.

As I metioned to someone else, if you do low volume training with cardio, it isnt low volome. Cardio is still exercising. Use that time to do high rep, low rest training and your results will be much better. Guaranteed.

This is actually an interesting concept. Assuming one does AM fasted cardio and a PM weight training work-out.
One could switch to an AM fasted morning 45 minute session of a full body routine with high reps and short intervals (30-40 seconds rest).

I actually hate plodding on the treadmill, so this idea does not seem that asinine. I would be worried about overtraining... so that could be an issue.

Have you used this exact method with your clients?
 
Dear Nelson.
i got your book BLB-ing and its great man!
could u tell me how to eat when i wanna to cut!
what ratio do u recommend and what works the best?

and what type of diet are you following when u are dieting?

thx
your fan!
 
You can readily see by searching that I have already pointed out that ALL exercise is cardio.

I agree with Nelson when he states that high rep lifting is the superior form of cardiovascular exercise. However, it must be done properly, number one, and number two, there is a greater risk of injury with this approach.

Specifically, the best exercise for this purpose is high rep squats, bar none. Windsprints are a similar type of exercise, and are VERY effective for burning fat.

An example of an am routine for getting lean would be as follows:

Stretch (I do it in the sauna).
Uphill walk on the treadmill for ten minutes, 4mph.
Windprints, 60 seconds each, at 12mph, rest two minutes, repeat, as many as you can do (five is tough).
100 reps of squats, light weight, any way you can get them.
(4X25, 3X33+1, 45,35,20, etc.)

And you're done. This is to be done, obviously, on an empty stomach and in the morning.

Feed throughout the day and then lift heavy at night for 30 min.

Nelson proposed the idea of resistance training as a form of cardio right on this board, I believe. I remember pointing this out myself not too long ago, maybe two months? I'm not platinum, so I can't do a thorough search.

Anyway, on the issue of resistance vs. non-resistance, I have to side with Nelson. He is absolutely correct.

That being said, there is a specific reason for including sprints, and that is to bring the body to its maximum exchange ratio and then beyond...

...this ultimately causes the body to produce more mitochondria in the muscle cell to adequately oxygenate the blood (and other reasons), and mitochondria are heat-producing cells. They are biologically active, and are the power house cells of the body. More mitochondria=more heat=less fat. This is why it is important to be in good cardiovascular health as well as good muscular condition. BOTH is best.

Let me say that it is my belief that one of the keys to success is the reaching of total failure. Every set, regardless of weight. When I say do a hundred reps on squat, the real way to do it is to just do as many as you can get, then do as many as you can get again, and so on, until you reach 100.

I will guarantee that anyone who does this daily, in the morning before eating, will lose fat like they can't believe. Be sure to ingest good protien immediately after the exercise is finished, within five minutes.

I am currently working on condensing the logic for a strategy for fatloss/muscle preservation, with supporting documentation. I will post it when I'm finished.
 
Fukkenshredded said:
You can readily see by searching that I have already pointed out that ALL exercise is cardio.

I agree with Nelson when he states that high rep lifting is the superior form of cardiovascular exercise. However, it must be done properly, number one, and number two, there is a greater risk of injury with this approach.

Specifically, the best exercise for this purpose is high rep squats, bar none. Windsprints are a similar type of exercise, and are VERY effective for burning fat.

An example of an am routine for getting lean would be as follows:

Stretch (I do it in the sauna).
Uphill walk on the treadmill for ten minutes, 4mph.
Windprints, 60 seconds each, at 12mph, rest two minutes, repeat, as many as you can do (five is tough).
100 reps of squats, light weight, any way you can get them.
(4X25, 3X33+1, 45,35,20, etc.)

And you're done. This is to be done, obviously, on an empty stomach and in the morning.

Feed throughout the day and then lift heavy at night for 30 min.

Nelson proposed the idea of resistance training as a form of cardio right on this board, I believe. I remember pointing this out myself not too long ago, maybe two months? I'm not platinum, so I can't do a thorough search.

Anyway, on the issue of resistance vs. non-resistance, I have to side with Nelson. He is absolutely correct.

That being said, there is a specific reason for including sprints, and that is to bring the body to its maximum exchange ratio and then beyond...

...this ultimately causes the body to produce more mitochondria in the muscle cell to adequately oxygenate the blood (and other reasons), and mitochondria are heat-producing cells. They are biologically active, and are the power house cells of the body. More mitochondria=more heat=less fat. This is why it is important to be in good cardiovascular health as well as good muscular condition. BOTH is best.

Let me say that it is my belief that one of the keys to success is the reaching of total failure. Every set, regardless of weight. When I say do a hundred reps on squat, the real way to do it is to just do as many as you can get, then do as many as you can get again, and so on, until you reach 100.

I will guarantee that anyone who does this daily, in the morning before eating, will lose fat like they can't believe. Be sure to ingest good protien immediately after the exercise is finished, within five minutes.

I am currently working on condensing the logic for a strategy for fatloss/muscle preservation, with supporting documentation. I will post it when I'm finished.

By Jove, I think we've got an agreement here!

Evis: Yes. And don't worry about overtraining. Just get enough sleep. After 2 weeks you're going to have fuller muscles.

Trans: Glad you like the book. What should you eat to get cut? Less.

Right now I'm maintaining my weight by eating a balanced diet of wholesome food, but I'm not a fanatic.
 
See! Everyone gets along and the thread drops off the board! :)


Anyway, this deserved a bump.
 
Eat Less?

When you eat less your metabolism slows down. I thought the best way to lose fat is to maintain your caloric intake and increase you caloric expidenture?
 
Re: Eat Less?

toilet hamster said:
When you eat less your metabolism slows down. I thought the best way to lose fat is to maintain your caloric intake and increase you caloric expidenture?

True, but since you're on a bodybuilding forum I presumed you're training. Bottom line: You have to burn more calories than you consume and you need to consume at least a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight along with necessary fats and carbs. So get moving!
 
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