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Most tattoos are trashy

MattTheSkywalker

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?

Well considering my tats look great and I am a white collar worker with a great education. I guess I have shot holes thru #1 and #2 for ya ;)

P.S. I have seen tatoos on women that I have liked as well but it all depends on what and where.
 
C'mon now, this ain't trashy...is it? :worried:

tattoos.jpg


:rolleyes:
 
Tats lower my perception of the persons IQ a minimum of 50 points..
On Women they lower my respectability scale a full 50%

I have thought about getting one and this realization has delayed it until such time
as the above IQ perception will have no impact on my livelyhood..
 
Y_Lifter said:
Tats lower my perception of the persons IQ a minimum of 50 points..
On Women they lower my respectability scale a full 50%

I have thought about getting one and this realization has delayed it until such time
as the above IQ perception will have no impact on my livelyhood..

well just get them where they are not seen, mine are on my shoulders and are never seen at work.
 
Dawgmo said:
Well considering my tats look great and I am a white collar worker with a great education. I guess I have shot holes thru #1 and #2 for ya ;)

Likewise Bro-

I have 9- all look good and get compliments from people inever even suspected and is a personalization of MY OWN SKIN for ME not you dickhead- i make 175,000/yr drive probably a nicer vehicle than you- so stop being so judgemental and get a life! Yes some look like shit just like anything if it is not done tastefully- I guess you wanted a reaction so theres mine! maybe to iiritate you i will post them so u can bash me while i laff my ass all the way to the bank.....caught me in a Test E mood...so i will stop there.

Ooops- you forgot another thing- guys sometimes get tatts to prove how tuff they are when they r small...lol Yeh thats why i did it...hehe!
 
ehh...fake boobs, collagen lips, bad makeup, bad clothes, corny riced out cars, gawdy jewlery.....that shit is trashier imo.....

sure there are plenty of people with garbage tattoos, but I am a fan of good ones.

a lot of art and tradition behind tattoos as well.
 
cutitup said:
Likewise Bro-

I have 9- all look good and get compliments from people inever even suspected and is a personalization of MY OWN SKIN for ME not you dickhead- i make 175,000/yr drive probably a nicer vehicle than you- so stop being so judgemental and get a life! Yes some look like shit just like anything if it is not done tastefully- I guess you wanted a reaction so theres mine! maybe to iiritate you i will post them so u can bash me while i laff my ass all the way to the bank.....caught me in a Test E mood...so i will stop there.

Ooops- you forgot another thing- guys sometimes get tatts to prove how tuff they are when they r small...lol Yeh thats why i did it...hehe!

175,000/year? Hire me when i move there next summer please. I could get by on that!!
 
Your views are rather ethnocentric. In many oriental cultures tatooing is considered a status symbol and high art.
 
cutitup said:
Likewise Bro-

I have 9- all look good and get compliments from people inever even suspected and is a personalization of MY OWN SKIN for ME not you dickhead-

You own your body, you can do whatever you want to it. I still have the right to mock it or to say it looks like shit...

i make 175,000/yr drive probably a nicer vehicle than you- so stop being so judgemental and get a life!

Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree there. :)

Yes some look like shit just like anything if it is not done tastefully- I guess you wanted a reaction so theres mine! maybe to iiritate you i will post them so u can bash me while i laff my ass all the way to the bank.....caught me in a Test E mood...so i will stop there.

Ooops- you forgot another thing- guys sometimes get tatts to prove how tuff they are when they r small...lol Yeh thats why i did it...hehe!

I don't care about a reaction. It doesn't matter to me what other people think. I guess it does to you though.

BTW cyp over E anyday.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?

Agreed. In spades.

99.999% of all tattoos are spectacularly bad art, too.
 
I'm not going to comment about tattoos on guys for obvious reasons. I'm not a fan of tattoos on the ladies although a small, well-placed one can sometimes be sexy...........
 
jerkbox said:
ehh...fake boobs, collagen lips, bad makeup, bad clothes, corny riced out cars, gawdy jewlery.....that shit is trashier imo.....

sure there are plenty of people with garbage tattoos, but I am a fan of good ones.

a lot of art and tradition behind tattoos as well.

Yep.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
You own your body, you can do whatever you want to it. I still have the right to mock it or to say it looks like shit...



Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree there. :)



I don't care about a reaction. It doesn't matter to me what other people think. I guess it does to you though.

BTW cyp over E anyday.

you do want a reaction otherwise you wouldnt have wasted time putting it on a public board for comments (duh!).....and yes everyone is entitled to their opinion- opinion are like a-holes- everyone has one! hmmm can i show u the tatt i have their....hehe

I just think your opinions are pretty judgemental and generalizing- very close minded to say the least....gotta get back to work to pay for my next tatt- by the way my wife has one on lower back and if i posted her on here the bro's may think yer trailer trash comment is a bit absurd!

altho i will say when i have a golf shirt on i did place them so no one can see them so i covered my ass for the generalizers and judgemental out there is this world! Its kinda like sayin all canadians are eskimos and everywhere is cold- looked at the US dollar vs the Canadian- thanks boys- 80 cents today thanks to failed leadership! hey to my Canadian Bro's out there!
 
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Most look like shit and have no meaning other than telling everyone "hey, I'm a bad mofo" or "I belong to the local wannabe biker's club". Some are true piece of art, others have a specific meaning (either cultural or personal). If someone can stick an explanation to it's tattoo, that's fine. If it's just to look cool, fuck it.
 
Its kind of like sayin " ALL BIG MUSCLE GUYS ARE ON JUICE " I am sure everyone here will agree with that...NOTTTTTTT!
 
Yeah, I dont care one way or the other on guys, but 99% of the time they detract from a womans appeal (for me at least). Although you'd be hard pressed to find a chick without them these days.

It really does speak clueless airhead and wannabe
 
the trashiest tats are the damn generic tribal bands...especially the barb wire style... Asian letters that mean "I LOVE COCK" while the recepient thinks it means "Courage".

Some tats are simply phenomal artwork. My friend in Kroliczek avatar has a tat of an angel and serpent intertwined on his back and that is nothing short of mind blowing when you see it.

You have to view tats as art work and get something original. Some art work is priceless and you hang it with pride. Other artwork is ho-hum and it goes on the refridgerator door. Same with tats. You pick something artful at least.
 
Perception CAN be reality in some situations..

to clarify,
I kept my comments as to my Initial "Perception" and not Judgement.

People with large glaring obvious tats fit my perception of who they
are, were or want to be ..

No different IMO than any other LOOK AT ME item mentioned..
 
Bran987 said:
even ozzy ozbourne says they stopped being cool and started being cliche like 20 years ago
ozzy

Yeh and we can see how Ozzy is fairing today...lol syndicated television show whore and ATV ridin madman...lol No disrespect to his music meant! ;)
 
"the trashiest tats are the damn generic tribal bands...especially the barb wire style... Asian letters that mean "I LOVE COCK" while the recepient thinks it means "Courage".


ROFL

My girlfriend has some chinese letters on her back.. everytime someone asks her what they mean I jump in and say "chicken special #3" LOL she gets so pissed.

Body art has been around for 20,000 years as a form of human expression... and in many cultures its is seen as a status symbol.

Ive seen some hot ass women with tattoos..
 
Well I attend biker parties and have many biker friends, so I've become desensitized to most tattoos. Most people do it to make a statement about themselves, I personally have none and I'm proud of it. In my group of friends, I'm the different one for NOT having any ink done! :D

Alot of people who get one will later get another, they become "addicted" in a sense. On women, I actually like a nice small tasteful tat on the small of the back or an ankle, but too many and I get turned off.
 
This thread i guess caught me the wrong way but look at the bright side- my workout tonite will have Skywalker written all over it- thanks bro! i need to stay motivated! Cheers!
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?


LOL! I couldn' t agree more bro! There is a girl at my gym who I was planning on making a move on until I saw that she had a trashy looking tattoo on her lower back. I don;t know about you guys but this is a complete turn off and in my opinion relegates this girl to white trash status.
 
cutitup said:
Likewise Bro-

I have 9- all look good and get compliments from people inever even suspected and is a personalization of MY OWN SKIN for ME not you dickhead- i make 175,000/yr drive probably a nicer vehicle than you- so stop being so judgemental and get a life! Yes some look like shit just like anything if it is not done tastefully- I guess you wanted a reaction so theres mine! maybe to iiritate you i will post them so u can bash me while i laff my ass all the way to the bank.....caught me in a Test E mood...so i will stop there.

Ooops- you forgot another thing- guys sometimes get tatts to prove how tuff they are when they r small...lol Yeh thats why i did it...hehe!



175,000 canadian is like 40,000 U.S., right????
 
for once we agree on something.
 
AAP said:
the trashiest tats are the damn generic tribal bands...especially the barb wire style... Asian letters that mean "I LOVE COCK" while the recepient thinks it means "Courage".


Yea mine mean something and the reason you mentioned is why I had my Asian letters verified by 3 separate sources!
 
What amuses me is people who think they are some sort of individual, free-thinking maverick who is making a statement about how they are too unique to ever be tamed by society, whereas they are rebelling in the most conformist way possible.

I don't like tattoos is what I am trying to say.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?

I agree I don't like tattoos, or piercings for that matter
 
To clarify, I got a tattoo when I was 18. I have a nice rose (with a heart in the center) above my left breast. My reasons for getting the tattoo:

1. to rebel against my parents (truth)
2. I thought the tattoo was pretty
3. I was afraid of needles, so I wanted to test my strength.

I have to again be honest...there have been times when I regretted getting the tattoo, when I thought about my wedding dress. But most of the time I forget I have it. Gladly, when I look at it from time to time I think about the time when I got it. It was a day that I will not forget...and the tat will be with me forever.
 
I dont mind being trashy.. keeps the yuppies from trying to be my friends. LOL.

They say "hey you wann aget together and plat some D7D and I just show em my tat.. like BAM! they are gone".

So I have to play D&D by myself. Damn tattoos.. relegated ot a life of loneliness.
 
bluepeter said:
140000 and change actually.............

Better redo yer math buddy thanks to Bush we are at 80 cents- highest in 10 years bro! KEEP HIM IN..lol i like my Abercrombie and Fitch affordable!!!
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?

Well your "compilation of associated data" didn't take into accordance all the various ways and types of tattoos that are done these days on various subjects. Not withstanding the ones you mentioned.

Such as skinny rock stars in bands who don't want to look feminime and wimpy in magazines. So instead of muscle they get knocked up with billions of tatttos to match their piercings.

Women who get that one tattoo on their mid-back. Right above the thong. IMHO, very sexy!

Midgets trying to look tough. How cute. Nuff said.

You're trying to get into a biker gang or biker circles. Can't do it with momma's baby arm. (eg: Jesse James of WCC)

Like everything in life -- some get it done with class, and others don't. Unfortunately i will agree with you that probably 70% of folks have no idea what to put on that isn't ugly or cheesy, and two -- where and how much to put on.

Two important factors on deciding whether you're telling the world you work at Dodge, or if you're a cool rock star.
 
cutitup said:
Better redo yer math buddy thanks to Bush we are at 80 cents- highest in 10 years bro! KEEP HIM IN..lol i like my Abercrombie and Fitch affordable!!!

Lets get to the important stuff like giving me a job if I move to T.O. next summer ;)
 
cutitup said:
Better redo yer math buddy thanks to Bush we are at 80 cents- highest in 10 years bro! KEEP HIM IN..lol i like my Abercrombie and Fitch affordable!!!

lol, I know. I already did the calculation at the current exchange rate and it's 140000 and change.............
 
jerkbox said:
a lot of art and tradition behind tattoos as well.

Someone ELSE's tradition. How pretentious is it to wear "tribal" ink? Are you a member of a tribe?
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?

Good post orbly.

Nothing screams "attention whore" like cheesy tats...except maybe that whole "Goth" thing or those circus freaks with 1/2 lb of metal dangling from various unnatural orifices on their face. :D

I have several friends who got tats way back in their teens, and every single one of them regrets it. Matter of fact, I can't think of ONE person I know who has a tat that's glad they got it.

The only, and I mean the ONLY tat I've ever seen that was even remotely "interesting" was a tat of an eagle on the back of a man of comparable size to Pitbull. When he pulled his lats in, the wings of the eagle went in, and when he spread his lats, the wings spread out.

Too bad it covered all the detail of his back that he'd obviously worked his ass off to achieve.
 
Y_Lifter said:
Tats lower my perception of the persons IQ a minimum of 50 points..
On Women they lower my respectability scale a full 50%

I have thought about getting one and this realization has delayed it until such time
as the above IQ perception will have no impact on my livelyhood..


What he said.
 
A low key tat on a guy might be ok.
Any tat on a chick is crap. All it says is they got drunk im mexico and decided to get a tat. Or they wanted to rebel against mommy and daddy and got a tat. Or everyone else was doing it in their sorority so they got a tat. Sooner or later your kids are going to want to know what the hell that flower is doing on your skin that never comes off.
 
I was buying stuff at an autoparts store....
one clerk checking my stuff complaining to himself under his breath
he couldn't get a decent job that paid worth shit.
He's got a sea serpent tattoo that starts wrapping around his neck, under his shirt,
down his arm, out the sleeve, with the serpent head on the back of his right hand,
serpent toung down his middle finger.
I'm thinking...yeah, that's real "corporate ladder" material.
 
Rod555 said:
Well not doggy style anyway! How off puting would it be trying to blow your load with those four goons staring up at you! LOL


I would jizz on their face and then call the Enquire to tell them about it...
 
cutitup said:
Better redo yer math buddy thanks to Bush we are at 80 cents- highest in 10 years bro! KEEP HIM IN..lol i like my Abercrombie and Fitch affordable!!!

You make 175,000 a year and shop at Abercrombie??

*read: you are out of highschool, and make more than $5.75 an hour and sport Abercrombie*
 
jerkbox said:
ehh...fake boobs, collagen lips, bad makeup, bad clothes, corny riced out cars, gawdy jewlery.....that shit is trashier imo.....

sure there are plenty of people with garbage tattoos, but I am a fan of good ones.

a lot of art and tradition behind tattoos as well.
Word!
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.
?

LOL! you are very witty matt. i think tatts are ok though. bigger ones look better on guys than girls. some guys look like they are trying to hard with them.

small subtle ones look good on women.
 
Mine can't be seen unless I take off my shirt. On the delts.

I'm high class, white collar, highly educated, and definately not a mechanic. So in conclusion, you're an idiot.
 
My first tatt was inked almost 20 years ago, when I was 13. I like them, they part of me, who I am.
I have a white collar job, and although I dont like dressing up, if I did I would fit in in any corporate situation.
To those that want to group everyone with tatts into one big category, get off your damn pedestal you pretentious bastard.
 
pitbullstl said:
You make 175,000 a year and shop at Abercrombie??

*read: you are out of highschool, and make more than $5.75 an hour and sport Abercrombie*

I didn't want to say anything orb, but, this is an odd confluence of circumstances.
 
Im not big into the covering your entire body,but to each their own, I keep mine in places where I can show them if I want,or cover them easy if I need to
 
I think tattoos are personal preference. If you don't like them, fine, that is your right. If you do like them, fine, that is your right. I certainly could care less what other people choose to do with their bodies. To me, intelligence or worth of a person is not based off something as superficial as a tattoo. But it is everyone's right to form their own opinion of what they think of people.

But to judge someone based solely on if they have a tattoo or not - especially judging their intelligence - is completely small-minded. For all you know, they most intelligent and well-respected person YOU know has a tattoo in a place you don't know about because it is always covered.

Using that correlation, those people WITHOUT tattoos are intelligent and deserve respect. And that, we all know, is incorrect.

The logic and correlations are flawed, in my humble (tattoo'ed) opinion.
 
Its pretty hard to ignore that Angela Jolie has tats..

and if they are good enough for the goddess of sex, pirates and ninjas..

they are good enough for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I dont think its so much a case of a financial class phenomenon as it is a social class phenomenon.

There are always exceptions but exceptions are meant to confuse the ignorant.

There's not many highly educated, well-mannered, presentable men with good general knowledge who have tats. I've met some. But compare the ratio to how much % of fat unshaven greasy truckers have tats, and there you go.
 
I know alot of people who have tats who are nice and well respected in their own field. They see as it as a way to stand out and be an individual in a crowd on the weekend.

Me, I just workout.
 
EnderJE said:
I know alot of people who have tats who are nice and well respected in their own field. They see as it as a way to stand out and be an individual in a crowd on the weekend.

Me, I just workout.

Tatts are a pathetic way to stand out. I stand out just by being myself.
 
"Most tattoos are trashy"

Agreed, permanent borderline mutilation, possibly cool today-absurd tomorro.
But, I wouldn't want to suffer the consequeces of cutting down about half this board.
So..... they are beautiful, well thought out, fine art, defining the major turning points in an individual's life.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hi.

A lot of younger people are getting tattoos these days, both men and women. My observance of this phenomenon, and compilation of associated data, has brought me to the conclusion that

1. Tattoos look like shit.

2. Guys with tattoos are usually announcing that they have risen to the level of assistant mechanic at the local dodge dealership. Data supporting whether this is a causal issue or a coincidence are incomplete.

3. Many women of all social strata are getting tattoos these days, yet a tattoo on women is a great social playing field leveling tool. Sadly, the level is "trailer. Least classy are probably the lower back tattoos, and competing with that are the ankle and lower abs tattoos.


Comments? Support? haters?


Matt, once again I agree with you. Tatoos look like shit. I don't care who you are or how cool you think your tats look, they deface the human body (which needs no artistic enhancement when trained properly). I could never deface my body with some crap I will be tired of looking at in 5 months.
 
Dawgmo said:
NOPE, but what the 2 symbols say mean something to me and really that is all that matters.


The words those symbols represent mean something to you I have no doubt whatsoever. You are not asian. There is no other reason to pick an asian symbol, or any other cultures symbols other than your own, except it looks cool.

I'll openly admit that tattoos affect my first impression of people. That being said I wouldn't hold that, or any other physical difference against them once I got to know them. Ill also admit it's a very close minded stance and I'm trying to work on it.
 
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Gambino said:
i think we can all agree that mts was born with a lot of money, his snobbery is typical of those who have not earned their fortunes...
I think he earned it about as much as the next guy.

Hard work, good luck, the right contact, sound judgement, and no heart.

just my opinion though
 
i think some of you have made it clear how rigid and unaccepting you are on this thread.....step into the 21st century here folks....

yall must have some pretty boring lives....because no doubt, you surround yourself with idiots who are just like you.....lol
 
strangebrew said:
says the guy with almost 16000 posts on an internet chat board.

don't like being called an idiot huh....go plant yourself back in front of your idiot box so you can watch some inoffensive, non-tattooed, conformist entertainment, or whatever it is you lame-os do......peabrain.
 
jerkbox said:
don't like being called an idiot huh....go plant yourself back in front of your idiot box so you can watch some inoffensive, non-tattooed, conformist entertainment, or whatever it is you lame-os do......peabrain.

lol
 
jerkbox said:
don't like being called an idiot huh....go plant yourself back in front of your idiot box so you can watch some inoffensive, non-tattooed, conformist entertainment, or whatever it is you lame-os do......peabrain.
LMFAO TELL'EM JERK

Anyway my 1st tat was 12 years ago and the usual reasons, thought it be cool, and it would piss the parents off. But since then i've probaly got about 15 more sleeved on one side and such. I am 28 years old business owner, and also in my 2nd year of college. In my opinion shitty tatoos or "trashy" ones come straight off the wall, when you can go on vacation at the beach were evertone is shirtless and such and you see 6 other people with the same tattoo, how good do you feel how much of an statement are you making there. Tattoos are art like said earlier some are shit some are spectular, all in all you can't judge anyone by a tattoo, or anything else, thats just plain prejudice. Just get over it if you don't like don't talk about, oh and by the way get out of the '70's and early '80's just a bunch of brain washed people i feel sorry for ya. Also you probaly think this way because your mommy told you to, grow up live your life by your own rules and rethink those old Taboo"'
 
Wow, this is some pretty funny shiet. :)
 
jerkbox said:
i think some of you have made it clear how rigid and unaccepting you are on this thread.....step into the 21st century here folks....


Yeah, lets step into the 21st century and stop mutillating flesh with ancient traditions.
 
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