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RESEARCHSARMSUGFREAKeudomestic
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making fat from carbs and long term maintenance

Lao Tzu

New member
Alright. When i start doing long term maintenance i am going to do about a 20/25/55 p/f/c split eating near maintenance.

de novo lipogenesis is the bodys conversion of carbs into bodyfat. since carbs are chemically different from fat it is harder for the body to store carbohydrates as fat.

Does anyone have any research on the upper limits on how much fat your body can store from carbs? i read from this site that

Do carbohydrates contribute to fat storage? The process of converting carbohydrate to fat is called de novo lipogenesis. The conversion of carbohydrate to fat however remains low and does not exceed 12 grams per day even after large carbohydrate consumption (Hudgins 1996). Even during mass overfeeding studies where amounts of carbohydrate exceed 500 grams in one feeding (this is greater than 1.2 kg of cooked pasta), fat storage is between 5-10 grams per day (Aarsland 1997, Schwarz 1995).


ive also been doing some research (there isnt much info because i cant access medical journals) and i keep coming across this report

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-11/ajoc-owc111601.php

They gave women 50% more calories than maintenance in the form of sucrose or glucose. It says that fat storage was 2-3x as high from this.

However, how much worse could that be? i didn't see a baseline on daily calories or daily fat storage but i would assume that these people didn't store more than 200 calories or so a day in fat. so a 3x boost means an extra 400 calories stored as fat for every 1000 calories of carbohydrates eaten per day tops.

the article also said this

Although rates of de novo lipogenesis in the carbohydrate-enriched energy-balanced control diet were significantly greater in the obese than in the lean women, the absolute quantities of fat synthesized from carbohydrate via de novo lipogenesis during both phases of the study were relatively small. An editorial by Hellerstein points out that de novo lipogenesis is a “path of last resort” in the body’s overall carbohydrate metabolism.
 
however this just says 'lean and obese women'. It doesn't say anything about people who used to be obese and who are in maintenance phase. Those people probably have different biochemistries when it comes to fat storage. But i still dont think the fat storage from carbs would be insanely high.
 
A few studies - not sure if they'll help but here ya go:

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Metabolic response to a large starch meal after rest and exercise: comparison between men and women.

Folch N, Peronnet F, Massicotte D, Charpentier S, Lavoie C.

Departement de kinesiologie, Universite de Montreal, Centre-Ville, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

BACKGROUND: Net whole-body and hepatic de novo lipogenesis could be more active in women than in men, but no comparison has been made between men and women in the two phases of the ovarian cycle after ingestion of a large carbohydrate meal. OBJECTIVE: We hypothesized that net whole-body de novo lipogenesis could be larger in women than men, and that glycogen and fat balance could be, respectively, lower and higher, following a large pasta meal ingested after rest or exercise. DESIGN: The metabolic response to a pasta meal (5 g dry weight/kg body mass) was studied in six men and six women (matched for age and BMI) in the follicular and luteal phases, following rest or exercise (90 min at 50% VO(2max)). Protein, glucose, and fat oxidation, and net whole-body de novo lipogenesis were computed for 10 h following ingestion of the meal using indirect respiratory calorimetry corrected for urea excretion. RESULTS: No net whole-body de novo lipogenesis was observed in any group in any situation (postrest and postexercise). When the meal was ingested following exercise, fat oxidation was significantly higher and glucose oxidation was significantly lower (P<0.05) than following the period of rest, and in a given experimental situation, the respective contributions of protein, fat, and glucose oxidation to the energy yield were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle. CONCLUSIONS: The contribution of substrate oxidation to the energy expenditure as well as fat and glycogen balance, and the effect of a previous exercise period, were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle following ingestion of the large carbohydrate meal.

PMID: 12947429
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Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body and adipose tissue metabolism in humans.

Minehira K, Bettschart V, Vidal H, Vega N, Di Vetta V, Rey V, Schneiter P, Tappy L.

Institute of Physiology, University of Lausanne, Lausanne, Switzerland.

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of a 4-day carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body net de novo lipogenesis and on markers of de novo lipogenesis in subcutaneous adipose tissue of healthy lean humans. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: Nine healthy lean volunteers (five men and four women) were studied after 4 days of either isocaloric feeding or carbohydrate overfeeding. On each occasion, they underwent a metabolic study during which their energy expenditure and net substrate oxidation rates (indirect calorimetry), and the fractional activity of the pentose-phosphate pathway in subcutaneous adipose tissue (subcutaneous microdialysis with 1,6(13)C2,6,6(2)H2 glucose) were assessed before and after administration of glucose. Adipose tissue biopsies were obtained at the end of the experiments to monitor mRNAs of key lipogenic enzymes. RESULTS: Carbohydrate overfeeding increased basal and postglucose energy expenditure and net carbohydrate oxidation. Whole body net de novo lipogenesis after glucose loading was markedly increased at the expense of glycogen synthesis. Carbohydrate overfeeding also increased mRNA levels for the key lipogenic enzymes sterol regulatory element-binding protein-1c, acetyl-CoA carboxylase, and fatty acid synthase. The fractional activity of adipose tissue pentose-phosphate pathway was 17% to 22% and was not altered by carbohydrate overfeeding. DISCUSSION: Carbohydrate overfeeding markedly increased net de novo lipogenesis at the expense of glycogen synthesis. An increase in mRNAs coding for key lipogenic enzymes suggests that de novo lipogenesis occurred, at least in part, in adipose tissue. The pentose-phosphate pathway is active in adipose tissue of healthy humans, consistent with an active role of this tissue in de novo lipogenesis.

PMID: 12972680
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[Transformation of sugar and other carbohydrates into fat in humans]

[Article in Danish]

Quistorff B, Grunnet N.

Kobenhavns Universitet, Panum Instituttet, Stofskiftecentret, Institut for Medicinsk Biokemi og Genetik.

The basic biochemistry of de novo lipogenesis and the current understanding of fat formation from carbohydrates in humans are reviewed. The suggestion is made that ingestion of carbohydrates in excess of the caloric needs necessarily results in de novo lipogenesis since the glycogen stores are already full. Under these circumstances a formation per day of 15-20 g palmitate from carbohydrates has been reported in the liver and a similar amount in the peripheral tissues.

PMID: 12715656
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Differences in the regulation of adipose tissue and liver lipogenesis by carbohydrates in humans.

Diraison F, Yankah V, Letexier D, Dusserre E, Jones P, Beylot M.

INSERM U 499 and GENALYS, Faculte RTH Laennec, 69008, Lyon, France.

We assessed the contributions of human liver and adipose tissue de novo lipogenesis (DNL) to triacylglycerol (TAG) synthesis. Volunteers were fed a high-energy, high-carbohydrate diet (HC, n = 5) or a normocaloric diet (NC, n = 10). NC subjects remained in the fasting state (Study 1, n = 5) or received oral glucose (Study 2, n = 5) throughout the test (12 h). HC subjects remained in the fasting state (Study 3). They ingested deuterated water and [U-13C]acetate to trace lipogenesis. Adipose tissue fatty-acid (FA) synthase (FAS), acetyl-CoA carboxylase 1 (ACC1), and SREBP-1c mRNA were measured. Plasma TAG-FA was labeled by 13C and deuterium showing active liver lipogenesis, which was stimulated (P < 0.05) by oral glucose and HC diet. Adipose tissue TAG had no detectable 13C enrichment in any test, showing no significant incorporation of TAG-FA provided by liver lipogenesis, but were labeled by deuterium in all tests, showing active DNL in situ; however, rough quantitative estimates showed that adipose DNL was minimal (<1 g), and poorly stimulated by oral glucose or HC diet. mRNA levels were not increased by the HC diet. Adipose DNL is active in humans, but contributes little to TAG stores and is less responsive than liver DNL to stimulation by carbohydrates.

PMID: 12562844
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Effects of isoenergetic overfeeding of either carbohydrate or fat in young men.

Lammert O, Grunnet N, Faber P, Bjornsbo KS, Dich J, Larsen LO, Neese RA, Hellerstein MK, Quistorff B.

Department of Sports Sciences and Clinical Biomechanics, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Southern Denmark, Denmark.

Ten pairs of normal men were overfed by 5 MJ/d for 21 d with either a carbohydrate-rich or a fat-rich diet (C- and F-group). The two subjects in each pair were requested to follow each other throughout the day to ensure similar physical activity and were otherwise allowed to maintain normal daily life. The increase in body weight, fat free mass and fat mass showed great variation, the mean increases being 1.5 kg, 0.6 kg and 0.9 kg respectively. No significant differences between the C- and F-group were observed. Heat production during sleep did not change during overfeeding. The RQ during sleep was 0.86 and 0.78 in the C- and F-group respectively. The accumulated faecal loss of energy, DM, carbohydrate and protein was significantly higher in the C- compared with the F-group (30, 44, 69 and 51% higher respectively), whereas the fat loss was the same in the two groups. N balance was not different between the C- and F-group and was positive. Fractional contribution from hepatic de novo lipogenesis, as measured by mass isotopomer distribution analysis after administration of [1-(13)C]acetate, was 0.20 and 0.03 in the C-group and the F-group respectively. Absolute hepatic de novo lipogenesis in the C-group was on average 211 g per 21 d. Whole-body de novo lipogenesis, as obtained by the difference between fat mass increase and dietary fat available for storage, was positive in six of the ten subjects in the C-group (mean 332 (SEM 191)g per 21 d). The change in plasma leptin concentration was positively correlated with the change in fat mass. Thus, fat storage during overfeeding of isoenergetic amounts of diets rich in carbohydrate or in fat was not significantly different, and carbohydrates seemed to be converted to fat by both hepatic and extrahepatic lipogenesis.

PMID: 11029975
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Stryc-9 said:

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Effects of isoenergetic overfeeding of either carbohydrate or fat in young men.

Lammert O, Grunnet N, Faber P, Bjornsbo KS, Dich J, Larsen LO, Neese RA, Hellerstein MK, Quistorff B.

Department of Sports Sciences and Clinical Biomechanics, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Southern Denmark, Denmark.

No significant differences between the C- and F-group were observed.................Thus, fat storage during overfeeding of isoenergetic amounts of diets rich in carbohydrate or in fat was not significantly different, and carbohydrates seemed to be converted to fat by both hepatic and extrahepatic lipogenesis.

PMID: 11029975

dammit. this is what i hate about scientific studies this is the opposite of what the others have said. The 2 i posted seemed to say even if you grossly overfeed on carbs, even eating 50% above maintenance that the body will barely convert them to fat because de novo lipogenesis is such a biologically expensive storage method that it doesnt do it. i dont know what to believe now.
 
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