Making AS legal???

[IronKop77]

Rick what would it take to make steroids legal in the United States?
I honestly understand where the government is coming from when it comes to the legality of certain drugs because thru the use of them others in society can be at risk. But I dont understand how the US government can put bans on such items as AS and other prescription drugs without posing a script. Now they are targetting ephedra and prohormones. How do these drugs fall into the same category as coke or crystal meth? When takin no one else is in harms way with the exception of the user, and if the user is even remotely educated in that area it is even of little risk to them. All I want to do is be able to juice legally and not worry about legal ramifications. I understand they dont want teenagers and such getting their hands on something that can be POTENTIALLY dangerous but what about the blue colar middle class health guru/bodybuilder.
Is there anything we as the people the US citizens can do to change this? What would it take to lessen the penaliies or make AS legal when under a DR supervision.(this is just a suggestion to keep them out of the hands of ignorant people and kids).
I think we as a bodybuilding community and citizens of the United States need to voice what we want it is our country after all and honestly who is goin to oppose this besides some overweight politician? I dont understand how these laws even come into being?

 

[Zyglamail]

The problem with steroids and many other things really isnt the drug in question. Its about our government trying to make themselvges look as if they are doing something to better the country.

Think about it? The government almost always makes decisions that are detrimental to the minority. Now that in and of itself sounds like a democracy, where the majority wins. However here in the US it has nothing to do with the majority, the majority of people are not voting on these issues and most could care less about these issues. Its simply a witch hunt where the government seeks to justify its gross overspending. Its so mired down that it cant actually accomplish anything of mass importance (ie hunger, shelter, jobs etc) that it concentrates on smaller issues with less impact. If you went around and asked people for a list of 10 things they think should be addressed, do you think steroids would be on the list of most people? Of course not, most people do not care.

The gov cant work on getting rid of tabacco which has been proven fatal and kills nearly half a million people yearly in the US because there is too much money it it for them and too much opposition. Our government has strayed so far from the course its not even a democracy anymore, its a dictatorship in the guise of democracy.

 

[Rick Collins]

Zyglamail's astute comments remind me of a quotation about how bureaucrats operate. I'll try to find it later and post it. Anyway, of the things I wanted to accomplish with LEGAL MUSCLE, one of my primary goals was to provoke a discussion about our steroid laws and policy. While each chapter covers a different topic, taken all together they form a compelling case for reform. I recognize that there's a long road ahead on this issue, but the book is selling better than I thought it would to mainstreamers on Amazon. I'm grateful to have had the opportunity, in some small way, to help get people reading ... and talking.

Now, I'm off to the gym.

 

[IronKop77]

Ok so I understand that this is definately not an issue that the general public cares to deal with but I believe if presented accurate information the generla public would not object to this legalization. Isnt there a way we could bring this to the House if we all pull together and sign some kind of petition.
Just food for thought
iron

and Zyg i couldnt agree with you more yet I love this country for what it is supposed to be BASED on

 

[Rick Collins]

People have been brainwashed for years, and it's hard to undo it. I've been experiencing this on the prohormone issue, with which I am very actively involved. The general interest on Capitol Hill isn't to relax our steroid laws, but to expand them. The primary culprit behind all this is the sports anti-doping lobby, which has done a brilliant job over the last few decades of convincing the public that steroid use is not only dangerous but unethical, period. But the fight to save prohormones is forcing to some degree a reevaluation of our steroid laws.

 

[HULKSTER]

People have been brainwashed for years, and it's hard to undo it. I've been experiencing this on the prohormone issue, with which I am very actively involved. The general interest on Capitol Hill isn't to relax our steroid laws, but to expand them. The primary culprit behind all this is the sports anti-doping lobby, which has done a brilliant job over the last few decades of convincing the public that steroid use is not only dangerous but unethical, period. But the fight to save prohormones is forcing to some degree a reevaluation of our steroid laws.

As Rick said, the IOC (International Olympic Committee), as well as the hundreds of corporate-owned professional sports teams, as well as the politicians who force public bonds to finance new stadiums down voters throats, all have their hands in the hypocrisy of AAS laws. Banning AAS has more to do about keeping the integrity---and thus fan interest and profit---of professional sports, rather than using logic and intelligence. Once again, money has triumped righteousness, and the corporate owners and sponsors of Olympic and pro athletics have used their power over politicians to ensure they keep bringing in millions....at the expense of innocent bodybuilders being thrown in jail. Doesn't it piss all of you off that people have to be jailed for using AAS, just so corporations can continuing making millions by ensuring the integrity of professional sports?

 

[Bulldog_10]

I don't care what anyone says...if steroids were made legal, only bad things would happen. Especially in our inpatient society...everyone wants to see gains overnight, and most people think that juice is the answer.

Sure, there are many people, mostly guys on this and the other boards, that can use them responsibly...but for every one person that knows how to use AAS responsibly I am willing to be there are hundreds, maybe thousands, that have no fucking clue.

For now, basically everyone that knows how to use them responsibly also knows where to get them, and how to get them safely. Why is that not good enough? Sure, it sucks that good people get busted, but if you take a look at who gets busted, it's the people who make large orders. If customs grabs 20 amps of test and 100 tabs of dbol, they're most likely not going to pursue it. It's the people that order a shitload, even if it's for personal use, that get shit over it. I'm sure someone is going to come up with a story about how a guy got busted with a small amount, but I'm talking in general terms.

For now, I think it's best for them to be illegal...and all this government bashing is rediculous.

 

[Zyglamail]

For now, basically everyone that knows how to use them responsibly also knows where to get them, and how to get them safely. Why is that not good enough? Sure, it sucks that good people get busted, but if you take a look at who gets busted, it's the people who make large orders.

For now, I think it's best for them to be illegal...and all this government bashing is rediculous.

If you think only those making large orders are falling into the legal system your sadly mistaken and I am sure Rick can tell you storeis that would truely horrify you at just how little it takes for them to try and hit you with everything they can throw at you. Read Ricks book and you will hear of many such cases.


You make a good point that simply making them legal for anyone to buy would have dire consequences, but the fact that simple possession can be punished with jail time is a fucking joke at best. Like so many other issues AAS being made illegal was the easiest and cheapest thing to do, it wasnt the right thing, but then again doing whats right by the people isnt what government isnt about (any more).

Bulldog, as for government bashing, tell me my statements are not true. I am not anti government, they serve a purpose and governments cost money to run. However, our government has become a cancer that grows and devours. Maybe if the government spent less time hassling AAS users and more time watching murderers etc we would not have lost 11,000 lives on sept 11th.

Let me ask you this, the government is supposed to protect the people and look out for the general well being of its citizens, if that is the case, how come alcohol and tabacoo are legal and they are working to ban prohormones???? Answer me that! CORUPTION! As I have already mentioned, the goverment has expanded, created new things to govern, impose all sorts of rules etc that benefit virtually no one. If Professional baseball saw prohormones as an issue then the league should outlaw thier use, why on gods green earth should the rest of the public have to sit by and watch our tax dollars wasted by the millions for the fucking beurocrats to sit around and argue weather or not to make something illegal that affects an incredibly small portion of the actual countries population? Why arent they spending the effort they waste on issues like ephedra, prohormes etc on making sure our homeless have jobs, our starving have food and that we have affordable health care. They take and put such a high priority on dealing with issues that affect the minority just so they can simply justify their existance. Im saddened that the government sits and points fingers at AAS users and calls them criminals while they sit back in their comfy leather chairs smoking cuban cigars laughing all the way to the bank at our expense.

 

[Bulldog_10]

If you think only those making large orders are falling into the legal system your sadly mistaken and I am sure Rick can tell you storeis that would truely horrify you at just how little it takes for them to try and hit you with everything they can throw at you. Read Ricks book and you will hear of many such cases.


You make a good point that simply making them legal for anyone to buy would have dire consequences, but the fact that simple possession can be punished with jail time is a fucking joke at best. Like so many other issues AAS being made illegal was the easiest and cheapest thing to do, it wasnt the right thing, but then again doing whats right by the people isnt what government isnt about (any more).

Bulldog, as for government bashing, tell me my statements are not true. I am not anti government, they serve a purpose and governments cost money to run. However, our government has become a cancer that grows and devours. Maybe if the government spent less time hassling AAS users and more time watching murderers etc we would not have lost 11,000 lives on sept 11th.

Let me ask you this, the government is supposed to protect the people and look out for the general well being of its citizens, if that is the case, how come alcohol and tabacoo are legal and they are working to ban prohormones???? Answer me that! CORUPTION! As I have already mentioned, the goverment has expanded, created new things to govern, impose all sorts of rules etc that benefit virtually no one. If Professional baseball saw prohormones as an issue then the league should outlaw thier use, why on gods green earth should the rest of the public have to sit by and watch our tax dollars wasted by the millions for the fucking beurocrats to sit around and argue weather or not to make something illegal that affects an incredibly small portion of the actual countries population? Why arent they spending the effort they waste on issues like ephedra, prohormes etc on making sure our homeless have jobs, our starving have food and that we have affordable health care. They take and put such a high priority on dealing with issues that affect the minority just so they can simply justify their existance. Im saddened that the government sits and points fingers at AAS users and calls them criminals while they sit back in their comfy leather chairs smoking cuban cigars laughing all the way to the bank at our expense.

Well, first off, I think we all agree that prohormones suck and should not be on the shelves. So why not ban them? They're not good for people, and these companies are making millions on pretty much false claims.

I'm totally with you on ephedra, it shouldn't be banned, but there should be more warnings on it, and they should educate people on the dangers of its use. While that Orioles pitcher might not have known exactly what he was doing, it's safe to assume he was a somewhat intelligent man. And if a common, somewhat intelligent man can suffer such severe consequences from a substance, something must be done about it...especially when kids can buy this stuff off the shelves.

As far as alcohol and tobacco go, I think it's hypocritical to say that they should be made illegal while you also say that AAS should be made legal. Both have potentially harmful side effects, both have benefits. If used responsibly there is no problem with any of those substances. The one thing that seperates them is education...

Like I said in a post a couple weeks ago. When comparing AAS, alcohol and tobacco: It is MUCH easier to educate people on the proper use of alcohol and tobacco than it is to educate them on the proper use of AAS. It took me (and many other people I'm sure) about 2 years to fully understand how to use AAS properly enough to actually use it. It took me about 3 seconds to get the idea that I shouldn't drink and drive, and that smoking can kill me and doesn't have many potential positive effects. That's my theory on why they are legal while AAS is illegal. And sure, they keep alcohol and tobacco legal because of pressure from the companies manufacturing them...but those are billion dollar industries which are major contributors to our economy. Make them illegal and you're asking for trouble as far as our economy goes.

Now, when you tell me that people were busted for having small supplies of AAS I believe you...but can you honestly tell me that if you order 20 amps of test and a couple hundred dbol let's say twiec a year, you think the odds of getting in serious trouble are more then 1%? I seriously doubt it. I can tell you from experience that I've had 2 packages caught by customs, and they were't small orders, but all i got was a couple of letters. And that was enough to tell me to cut the shit.

And facing jail time for possession of a personal supply of AAS? I seriously doubt you there....I'm sure there have been rare cases...But you'll NEVER convince me that I could face jail time for a personal supply of AAS, as long as my criminal record wasn't shitty.

While there is no right and wrong on these issues, these are just my opinions, take them for what they're worth. If you think AAS should be made legal, or alcohol and tobacco should be illegal, do something about it...

 

[IronKop77]

Bulldog thats my point of starting this post. What the hell can we do about this. Im not all for 100% legalization becasue those who are going to abuse them will have easier acess to them but if you think these kind of people arent using them now your fooling yourself bro. I think there is a happy medium that can be achieved here to protect the public yet not restrict us. I dont think alcohol and tobacco should be made illegal. Thats just taking another right away from us. We are supposed to be free people until our freedom and personal good infringes on another person.


The government isnt supposed to be a parent figure telling us whats right and wrong and whats safe and not thru limiting what we can and cannot do to OURSELVES. The government is based on the functionality of society and the preservtion of rights and safety from others. Its to bad the gov doesnt run by these guidlines and the almighty dollar reigns. Im not bashing the gov I damn well love America and how it runs now but I think there is room for improvement. As time goes on things need to change for the better thats all im trying to get across.

 

[HULKSTER]

Bulldog,

The Orioles pitcher who died was NOT a common, intelligent man as you said. He was an uncommon, STUPID man. Why so? Well, common doesn't refer to millionaire professional athletes, and the word intelligence shouldn't be used to describe a fat fucking, out-of-shape moron who thought it was a good idea to overdose on epedra, without drinking any water, all the while doing windsprints in 90 degree Florida weather----while wearing NO baseball cap, thus increasing his chances of heat stroke. And remember, the coroner listed his death as heat stroke.

 

[Zyglamail]

Well, first off, I think we all agree that prohormones suck and should not be on the shelves. So why not ban them? They're not good for people, and these companies are making millions on pretty much false claims.

I'm totally with you on ephedra, it shouldn't be banned, but there should be more warnings on it, and they should educate people on the dangers of its use. While that Orioles pitcher might not have known exactly what he was doing, it's safe to assume he was a somewhat intelligent man. And if a common, somewhat intelligent man can suffer such severe consequences from a substance, something must be done about it...especially when kids can buy this stuff off the shelves.

As far as alcohol and tobacco go, I think it's hypocritical to say that they should be made illegal while you also say that AAS should be made legal. Both have potentially harmful side effects, both have benefits. If used responsibly there is no problem with any of those substances. The one thing that seperates them is education...

Granted prohormones do suck but that really isnt the point, the point is freedom and our right to do with our bodeis as we see fit as long as we are not hurting others. If the gov was actually concerned about us, they would regulate suppliments and make sure that what was claimed to be in them was actually what was in them, instead they spend money locking AAS users up.

As for alcohol/tabacoo and AAS legalization issue, I never said they should be made legal, but they shouldnt be crminalized either, perhaps require classes or something and a certification for a license to use them. However, how many deaths each year arise from moderate, intelligent AAS use? Now, how many people die from alcohol and tabacoo? Just a few months ago I held my aunts hand while she died from lung cancer and what I find hipocritical is that our government says its ok to kill yourself by smoking or drinking yourself to death but you cant risk your health with AAS, now that is hipocritical if I have ever seen it. Not only that but second hand smoke and smoking/drinking is also dangerous to those around you, especially unborn children but once again our government says its ok, all because they get buco taxes and payoffs from the tabaco and alcohol companies.

Suffice it to say that saying we cant do something because it is illegal has proven since the dawn of time that it DOES NOT WORK. Look at prohibition. The only way to truely save people from themselves is to educate them. In our governments witch hunt they will soon have us all locked in padded cells to SAVE us...even though they have proven time and time again they are less competent than many of the people they have sworn to serve.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog,

The Orioles pitcher who died was NOT a common, intelligent man as you said. He was an uncommon, STUPID man. Why so? Well, common doesn't refer to millionaire professional athletes, and the word intelligence shouldn't be used to describe a fat fucking, out-of-shape moron who thought it was a good idea to overdose on epedra, without drinking any water, all the while doing windsprints in 90 degree Florida weather----while wearing NO baseball cap, thus increasing his chances of heat stroke. And remember, the coroner listed his death as heat stroke.

I'm not saying that ephedra killed him, and I don't know the whole story, I only know what i see on the news. They said he was using it exactly as directed, not overdosing. And I don't know where you heard about him not drinking any water, but I assumed that the team trainers would take care of things like that.

I'm just saying that if ephedra can play a role in the death of a man (supervised by trainers), it should be more strictly regulated...especially since kids can get a hold of this stuff easily and legally.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog thats my point of starting this post. What the hell can we do about this. Im not all for 100% legalization becasue those who are going to abuse them will have easier acess to them but if you think these kind of people arent using them now your fooling yourself bro. I think there is a happy medium that can be achieved here to protect the public yet not restrict us. I dont think alcohol and tobacco should be made illegal. Thats just taking another right away from us. We are supposed to be free people until our freedom and personal good infringes on another person.


The government isnt supposed to be a parent figure telling us whats right and wrong and whats safe and not thru limiting what we can and cannot do to OURSELVES. The government is based on the functionality of society and the preservtion of rights and safety from others. Its to bad the gov doesnt run by these guidlines and the almighty dollar reigns. Im not bashing the gov I damn well love America and how it runs now but I think there is room for improvement. As time goes on things need to change for the better thats all im trying to get across.

That's the thing...in all honesty, WE control the government. There is NO argument against that. If there are enough people that want something done, it gets done. If enough people call their representatives saying they want something done, it gets done...or they lose their jobs cuz people won't vote for them. If you seriously want to get something done, check out a website about lobbying. they're full of information on how to get things done through government systems. If you want I can find something for you, I did a small project on things like this in a class I took last semester about the current health care system in the US.

 

[Zyglamail]

That's the thing...in all honesty, WE control the government. There is NO argument against that. If there are enough people that want something done, it gets done. If enough people call their representatives saying they want something done, it gets done...or they lose their jobs cuz people won't vote for them. If you seriously want to get something done, check out a website about lobbying. they're full of information on how to get things done through government systems. If you want I can find something for you, I did a small project on things like this in a class I took last semester about the current health care system in the US.

Thats the clincher, it takes thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people to get things CHANGED, not done. How many people lobbied to get AAS scheduled? My guess is very few yet it happened anyway. Just another hipocritical methodology whereby the gov can change what they want and it takes half the population to change something no one cared about anyways. Its selective governing whereby the government exercises their power and targets things that most people dont care about so there is no opposition, it gives them something to do and help warrant their existance. It would be nearly impossible to get anough people together to lobby to get AAS decriminalized because simply put most people dont use AAS and therefor dont care. They know the half truths portrayed by the media and since they do not have any interest in the topic they are not open to being educated and hence will never waste their time decriminalizing them.

So, while on the surface it would appear we the people have the power, how come we the people werent asked to vote on these issues? Lets face it, we dont have shit for power all we can do is appoint people to office and then they pretty much have a free reign to do as they please, then, only after the fact do we have any recourse. its fucking bass ackwards is what it is. These people should be representing our interests, but instead they go on wich hunts under the guise of helping us.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Thats the clincher, it takes thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people to get things CHANGED, not done. How many people lobbied to get AAS scheduled? My guess is very few yet it happened anyway. Just another hipocritical methodology whereby the gov can change what they want and it takes half the population to change something no one cared about anyways. Its selective governing whereby the government exercises their power and targets things that most people dont care about so there is no opposition, it gives them something to do and help warrant their existance. It would be nearly impossible to get anough people together to lobby to get AAS decriminalized because simply put most people dont use AAS and therefor dont care. They know the half truths portrayed by the media and since they do not have any interest in the topic they are not open to being educated and hence will never waste their time decriminalizing them.

So, while on the surface it would appear we the people have the power, how come we the people werent asked to vote on these issues? Lets face it, we dont have shit for power all we can do is appoint people to office and then they pretty much have a free reign to do as they please, then, only after the fact do we have any recourse. its fucking bass ackwards is what it is. These people should be representing our interests, but instead they go on wich hunts under the guise of helping us.

But if most people don't give a rats ass, then why should they change it? That's the point, most people probably want steroids to be kept illegal. If more people wanted them to be decriminalized, it would happen. I'm not saying you should start lobbying now, but how about doing something to get the word out and try to change the PEOPLE'S opinion on AAS. If you can educate people on the false portayal of AAS in the media, and the potential benefits, you can change public opinion, and then change law.

Look at what is going on with tobacco...people are getting to word out about how bad cigarettes are (thetruth.com) and people are calling their representatives, and taxes are being increased on cigarettes, making more money for the government and making it less convenient for smokers to smoke.

Also, most public places are going smoke free, for example, Massachusetts just went smoke free in ALL public places as of the beginning of May. This makes things even less convenient for smokers. So while laws may not be changed, things are being done to end smoking.

You can do the same thing with steroids, if you believe you can...The question is, do you think you can change public opinion? And do you think if people knew the truth, would they care enough to do something about it?

 

[Zyglamail]

You can do the same thing with steroids, if you believe you can...The question is, do you think you can change public opinion? And do you think if people knew the truth, would they care enough to do something about it?

Actually if im not mistaken much of the money to educate people on smoking is paid for by the tabaco companies as part of their fine. Additionally how long has this taken to happen? 100 years?

My point is if people were asked to actually take part and show up to vote to determine weather AAS use would be a criminal offense, how many people would show up to make it a criminal offense? My guess would be that many who were simply not interested wouldnt show up at all and those that were interested, the majority of them would vote to decriminalize it. Look at the rate of problems associated with alcohol, tabaco, or even plastic surgery/liposuction etc. These all cary inherent dangers however only AAS use is a criminal offense and of all these items it probably has the least danger. If that is the case then why was so much governmental energy expended it not only making its use a criminal offense but spending millions a year persueing people and incarcerating them into our allready overflowing legal system?

I put AAS use on the same par as I do physical augmentation such as peircing, plastic surgery(ie nose jobs, boob jobs etc), liposction, and yes even tabacco and alcohol use. The main difference between the items above however is that alcohol and tabacco use do not only affect the user but those around them, ie second hand smoke and drunk driving for example.

The priorities and the way things are done dont necessarily favor the majority, they are against the minority. It seems that the main thing the government accomplishes are things that it can do to lack of opposition. There is a big difference between doing what the majority actually wants and what the minority doesnt want. Time and time again rules have been put in place to make things harder and harder for the average citizen to accomplish anything, slowly over the years the power has been taken from the people and it continues as we speak.

 

[Bulldog_10]

But that's the point, at some point they were made illegal because they were not seen as safe. You can't just whine about it if you want it changed...you have to do something about it. The law isn't going to change itself, you need to get off your ass, and get something together. And I don't mean YOU in particular, I'm not saying YOU should do something, I'm just talking in general.

You have to get enough people together who DO want changes to be made, if you can't do that...then why SHOULD they change the law? If most of the people are happy with it, why do anything?

 

[Zyglamail]

But that's the point, at some point they were made illegal because they were not seen as safe.

This is where I apparently am not getting my point accross. They were not just made prescription only but they actually criminalized their use. Additionally they were not made illegal JUST because they were deemed unsafe because as I have already stated alcohol, tabacco, plastic surgery etc has all been proven to have risks. Hell you cant get much more documented than the dangers of smoking yet they continue to be legal. The key here is that they were crimanlized not JUST because they were deemed unsafe but because they were deemed unsafe AND there was no opposition among the law makers. There was no opposition because there was no opne lobbying and paying them big bucks like alcohol and tabacco and this is key. Government should be about protecting people, but they only offer the proection when they are not being paid off.

You have to get enough people together who DO want changes to be made, if you can't do that...then why SHOULD they change the law? If most of the people are happy with it, why do anything?.

Once again if not enough people care about it, why did it consume so many resources in the first place? Why should we have to follow the gov around and try and fix things AFTER the fact, why cant they get the people involved to begin with? You asking why they should change the law if there isnt enough interest to change it and I am saying take a step even farther back in the law making process and am asking why make the law in the first place if there is no interest!

 

[Bulldog_10]

This is where I apparently am not getting my point accross. They were not just made prescription only but they actually criminalized their use. Additionally they were not made illegal JUST because they were deemed unsafe because as I have already stated alcohol, tabacco, plastic surgery etc has all been proven to have risks. Hell you cant get much more documented than the dangers of smoking yet they continue to be legal. The key here is that they were crimanlized not JUST because they were deemed unsafe but because they were deemed unsafe AND there was no opposition among the law makers. There was no opposition because there was no opne lobbying and paying them big bucks like alcohol and tabacco and this is key. Government should be about protecting people, but they only offer the proection when they are not being paid off.

Once again if not enough people care about it, why did it consume so many resources in the first place? Why should we have to follow the gov around and try and fix things AFTER the fact, why cant they get the people involved to begin with? You asking why they should change the law if there isnt enough interest to change it and I am saying take a step even farther back in the law making process and am asking why make the law in the first place if there is no interest!

Well, it was probably made a law back when not much was known about AAS. And there is still alot that we don't know, let's just face the facts...there hasn't been enough research done on AAS on healthy men to warrant them being decriminalized.

AAS were invented to help sick people, not to be used by people without serious complications...alcohol and tobacco were made for everyone to get fucked up. I think the fact that steroids are medicine and alcohol and tobacco are recreational substances is the reason why this all started in the first place.

If you decriminalize steroids, it is just one more thing to add to the list of things that are potentially harmful, and legal. If AAS were made legal I'm sure there would be a few morons in the first year that seriously fucked themselves up, and then what? Then even more people would jump on the anti-steroid bandwagon and the law would be changed back...and then more strictly enforced.

Please, don't get me wrong...I don't like to see people get into deep shit for steroids...I believe they CAN be used safely. But I would not push for them to be decriminalized.

 

[Zyglamail]

Well, it was probably made a law back when not much was known about AAS. And there is still alot that we don't know, let's just face the facts...there hasn't been enough research done on AAS on healthy men to warrant them being decriminalized.

AAS were invented to help sick people, not to be used by people without serious complications...alcohol and tobacco were made for everyone to get fucked up. I think the fact that steroids are medicine and alcohol and tobacco are recreational substances is the reason why this all started in the first place.

So, just because alcohol/tabacco have been around so long and are used for recreation...regardless of how many deaths have been documented to them, makes them legitimate and legal while something designed for medical use is illegal even though there have been virtually no deaths attributed to it. What you are saying is that in one case gov ignorance allowed tabacco/alcohol and that gov ignorance is fine and dandy however when an individual tries to claim ignorance in a court of law it doesnt fly.

I just find it very hipocritical of the government to allow things that have proven fatal time and time again while disallowing others that have far fewer sides.

As for people going out and fucking themselves up with AAS, its gonna happen weather its illegal or not and if its not AAS it will be booze and tabacco or even other drugs. You cant save man from himself, all you can do is educate him. Darwynism at its best and instead of letting natural selection take its place our gov is playing god....but only when it suits them. We could collectivly (we as in the fitness community) come up with a plan that would not only allow the educated use os AAS by keeping it illegal but have an education system in place whereas one gould attain a "license" to use the product. This would in essence allow those who were dedicated enough to go through the proper education and use AAS while still keeping legal ramifications in place for those that did not follow proper procedure. This would be a win win for AAS users as well as the government since they could potential tax the education process, sell licenses and tax AAS itself. This could also greatly benefit the research community since AAS use would be such a taboo subject. Will something like this ever happen?

 

[Bulldog_10]

We could collectivly (we as in the fitness community) come up with a plan that would not only allow the educated use os AAS by keeping it illegal but have an education system in place whereas one gould attain a "license" to use the product. This would in essence allow those who were dedicated enough to go through the proper education and use AAS while still keeping legal ramifications in place for those that did not follow proper procedure. This would be a win win for AAS users as well as the government since they could potential tax the education process, sell licenses and tax AAS itself. This could also greatly benefit the research community since AAS use would be such a taboo subject. Will something like this ever happen?

That sounds like it has potential...will it ever happen? That's depends if anyone wants to take the initiative and start something. You don't even have to get most people on your side...how about starting with a few doctors and scientists who have studied AAS, and think it should be decriminalized? If you get doctors saying that it can be used safely, you have a good start. Why not start by contacting a doctor who published an article about AAS use in healthy men? See what he has to say, and see if he thinks it should be decriminalized.

You can't just complain about it, and say it's wrong, but never do anything about it. Things are being done about tobacco, things can be done about AAS...it's just that no one has that much faith that it can happen...so no one is going to try.

 

[IronKop77]

Zyg your suggestion makes perfect sense Im sure it has it fall backs but it sounds like it could be a great start. I think half this battle is education. We (s in those of us on this board etc) know that steroid sides are greatly exagerated. All you hear about is roid rage and a shrunken package when in reality test gives most users a feeling of well being. If we want to make a change the time to start is now and here on this board. Get this out on the anabolic board. Get the idea out to other boards. Convince others to write to magazines of all sorts health and fitness oriented and weekly ones such as time newsweek etc. Have someone set up a website( I would if I had the knowledge but I lack in that area) with links so they can go to the site, point and click to e-mail their senators. Also have the site setup to educated the general public. Its only getting worse the gov. is now trying to ban prohorones ephedra and the such. I agree with maybe some kind of regulations for purity and potency of products and making it harder for false label claims but to downright make those things illegal Come on!
We need ot change this momentum the fitness industry is a several billion dollar business so there has to be some backing out there!
To me this isnt just a case of decriminalizing AS use its about us getting some of our rights back. Its bbullshit that we can spend years in jail for taking up a harmless hobby and healthy lifestyle. Granted there may be those that will abuse; but you dont think we have that now; look at greg valvoline!!!

 

[Zyglamail]

To me this isnt just a case of decriminalizing AS use its about us getting some of our rights back. Its bbullshit that we can spend years in jail for taking up a harmless hobby and healthy lifestyle. Granted there may be those that will abuse; but you dont think we have that now; look at greg valvoline!!!

Exactly my point. People talk about the potential for abuse with AAS and yes, it does exist and the last thing I want to see are a bunch of high schooler juicing. However at the same time I find it extremely hipocritical that cigaretts have been proven addictive AND DEADLY and are freely allowed.

For example look at the following quotes from the DEA web site.

The CSA places all substances that are regulated under existing federal law into one of five schedules. This placement is based upon the substance's medicinal value, harmfulness, and potential for abuse or addiction. Schedule I is reserved for the most dangerous drugs that have no recognized medical use, while ScheduleV is the classification used for the least dangerous drugs. The act also provides a mechanism for substances to be controlled, added to a schedule, decontrolled, removed from control, rescheduled, or transferred from one schedule to another.

Now if you ask me cigaretts have no medicinal value, they have been proven harmfull time and time again and account for nearly half a million deaths each year and lastly they are also addictive. Tabacco fits the description of the DEA's statements much more so than AAS, yet our hipocritical government is getting their pockets lines by the tabacco industry so its ok.

 

[wit]

I work in politics in Washington, DC, so it's appropriate that I finally register and make this my inagural post.

Some of you may think that this town is run by "big interest" and "big money" and the laws are made by some obscure politicians and bureucrats. In reality, neither is all that true. Laws pass all the time with only small, but voicerous, grassroots support, and bills get killed very often just because a few constituents complain. It it almost laughably easy for a few groups to organize and flood a congressman's office to demonstrate that his district is pro/against something.

That said, criminalizing AAS is easy to be in favor of, but hard to be against. As mentioned above, there's a sizable interest in keeping AAS illegal, and there's literally _NO _notable_ interest_ in making them legal. More people fight to legalize hard drugs than AAS.

That said, it is not all that hard to block new stringent regulations, but AAS users/supporters completely dropped the ball in ~92 when stiffer penalties were enacted.

Looking to the future, an easy first step for most people should be contributing money to a lobby/nonprofit group with a libertarian bent and good AAS/drugs proposals/focus. Gear costs lots of money, and if you want to make sure that it is available to you in the future, you should budget a certain % of your gear budget towards decriminalization/recrassification efforts. The key is to make yourself heard, but most gear users want to keep the lowest profile they can. (understandably so)

-wit

 

[Spidey]

Here's a thought (perhaps a naive one): Has anyone ever challanged a personal posession arrest on constitutional grounds that the law violates your constitutional right to "pursuit of happiness"? I mean, how can a substance that is not physically addictive, has no direct or indirect effect on any second parties and does not pose any danger to society at large be legally banned? Isn't that an unconstitutional law? That's like creating a law making possesion of gensing illegal. How could a law like that survive a challange on constitutional grounds?

Rick? RW?

 

[Zyglamail]

Here's a thought (perhaps a naive one): Has anyone ever challanged a personal posession arrest on constitutional grounds that the law violates your constitutional right to "pursuit of happiness"?

The truth of the matter is your happiness doesnt mean shit and takes a back seat to the politicians wallets. Your own personal happiness was just tossed in to give you the warm fuzzies and has no bearing on what you are allowed to do. AFter all the government feels we are all morons and therefor has to limit what we can do to ourselves and thereby save us from ourselves.

Have you ever wondered why you have the freedom to not eat and starve yourself to death, but you cant commit suicide?

 

[Spidey]

The truth of the matter is your happiness doesnt mean shit and takes a back seat to the politicians wallets. Your own personal happiness was just tossed in to give you the warm fuzzies and has no bearing on what you are allowed to do. AFter all the government feels we are all morons and therefor has to limit what we can do to ourselves and thereby save us from ourselves.

Have you ever wondered why you have the freedom to not eat and starve yourself to death, but you cant commit suicide?

LOL, your views on the US government are pretty well known. However, politicians (even corrupt, money-grubbing ones) can't change the constitution (at least without a 2/3 majority).

My question was a serious one. Why can't the AS laws be challanged on constitutional grounds? Surely a good lawyer who knows the way around a library could put together a shit-load of clinical and scientific evidence to discredit the mistaken impressions people have of steroid use. This would take the wind out of the sails for the government to claim that AS use is harmful to any second party or society at large and without that contention, the law becomes an unconstitutional infringement of your rights doesn't it? What would happen if such a case went before the supreme court?

 

[Zyglamail]

LOL, your views on the US government are pretty well known. However, politicians (even corrupt, money-grubbing ones) can't change the constitution (at least without a 2/3 majority).

My question was a serious one. Why can't the AS laws be challanged on constitutional grounds? Surely a good lawyer who knows the way around a library could put together a shit-load of clinical and scientific evidence to discredit the mistaken impressions people have of steroid use. This would take the wind out of the sails for the government to claim that AS use is harmful to any second party or society at large and without that contention, the law becomes an unconstitutional infringement of your rights doesn't it? What would happen if such a case went before the supreme court?

Because the laws take precedence over your constitution rights. Beleive me, I wish your arguement would hold up in court but lets face it , it wont. and for every claim we come up with saying its not harmfull they will come up with their own experts claiming it is.

 

[Rick Collins]

Part of the reason I wrote LEGAL MUSCLE was to provide a referenced, supported authority for what's wrong with our steroid laws. Chapter by chapter, my goal was to build a compelling case for the conclusion that we've made a terrible mistake in our approach.

 

[Spidey]

Part of the reason I wrote LEGAL MUSCLE was to provide a referenced, supported authority for what's wrong with our steroid laws. Chapter by chapter, my goal was to build a compelling case for the conclusion that we've made a terrible mistake in our approach.

OKOK. I am sold; I'll buy the book as soon as I can afford to, LOL. In the meantime, can you tell me:

1. Has anyone challanged steroid possesion laws as unconstitutional?

2. What do you think would happen if such a case made it to the supreme court?

 

[wit]

My question was a serious one. Why can't the AS laws be challanged on constitutional grounds?

What the Constitution means is determined by what the Supreme Court says it means. Almost from the start of this nation, certain things were curtailed, banned and criminalized and the SC explicitly agreed that it is within the Fed, State, or Local government's right to do so. Certain regulations needed to be changed, altered, or rewritten to comply with the Constitution, and many were completely struck down over the years, but curtailment of "freedom and happiness" is just a legal fact of life.

On the Federal level, many years ago FDA's authority to regulate drugs was challenged before the SC. The SC heard, reviewed and upheld FDAs authority. Likewise, the SC heard, reviewed, and upheld DEAs authority and has dealt with many controlled substance cases over the years.

Currently, one of the most interesting cases _expected_ to be brought to the SC's attention deals with search and seizure issues of some drug offenders. What is happening is that some of the arrested drug offenders' assets are being auctioned off even _before_ his or her guilt has been determined.

What usually happens is that an organization like ACLU will shop around for the "perfect test case" and then throw all their resources and support to launch a respectable judicial battle all the way to the SC.

Similarly, in determining which cases it wants to hear, the SC will consider whether a particular case has notable repeated impact on society, whether a given case is infact a good case/demostration of a particular law/constitutional concern, and whether the case will clarify or cloud existing legal precedent.

-wit

 

[liftsiron]

Zyg everything you have said in your numerous posts on this thread is regretably true. Steroids should never have been criminalized and placed on schedule, they do not meet the criteria. If it about keeping americians safe, you make a good point with tobacco which kills over 1100 people each day in our country, or even tylonal with contributes to more than 400 deaths in our country each year. And Bulldog you are a good guy but as Zyg said are missing the point, you state that making prohormones illegal is ok, because you don't use them but on the other hand eph should not be banned, because it seems that you use it. That thread is about our freedoms that our forefathers fought and died for are being stripped by over zealous pricks.

One more point couldn't the near 65 billon spent in Iraq have been better spent in the USA, especially now that the truth is out, we went to war based on lies.