Yarg! said:
dude, i agree with most of your points, but it doesnt matte rhow many yrs it took to make a technique, in the end, if the teacher teaches somethine needlessly complex over something much more simple to execute, the simple move will be superior.
No matter HOW good the above SOUNDS on PAPER this statement couldnt be less true in real world application .
FIRSTLY :
lets get down to making ourselves understood . Something being More Complex does NOT mean that it is Slower , Inefficient , or harder to Execute once mastered . While it CAN mean these things it can ALSO mean simply that its harder to COMPREHEND , or to Develop/Master
SECONDLY :
Even if a thing IS more difficult to Execute , that means nothing at all . I can site HUNDEREDS of examples from Sportfighting where the more Complex tech or maneuvre s not only a POSSIBLE way of beating a simpler tech , but the ICONIC or TEXTBOOK way of doing so ! A few Examples ...
Boxing - Getting outjabbed ? Slip and overhand counter .
Boxing - Hook troubling you ? Circle amd Jab (takes 2 feet and an arm)
Muay Thai - If one grabs the opponent around the lower back with both hands, and pushes against his collarbone with his chin he would be performing the trick called Giant Steals The Girl - What does this Stop ? Elbows in the Clinch .
Hell , heres a whole LIST from Muay Thai ! -
SERPENT SNEAKS TO THE OCEAN: Duck under a high-roundhouse kick and side kick your opponents support leg.
TATTOO A WREATH OF FLOWERS: Defend a straight punch by slipping to the inside and spiking your opponents sternum with your elbow (keep your hand on your head for rigidity)
WARLORD THROWS THE LANCE: Defend a straight punch by parrying and stepping towards the outside, and throwing a roundhouse kick across their midsection.
SWAN WITH A BROKEN WING: Defend a straight punch by parrying and stepping to the inside, and throwing an elbow strike into their shoulder to break it.
CUT THE GRASS: Defend a high kick by performing a single-leg takedown on your opponents support leg.
OLD MAN SWEEPS THE FLOOR: Defend against a kick by stepping sideways and throwing a roundhouse kick to your opponents support leg.
MONKEY PRESENTS THE RING: Defend a straight punch by slipping towards the inside and throwing a double uppercut to your opponents chin.
BREAK THE ELEPHANTS TRUNK: Trap opponents kick and throw an axe elbow to his thigh.
AND my PERSONAL fave (WAY Complicated , but it works !) :
MONKEY BEATS THE GIANT: Trap opponents kick, then spin to the inside, kneeling and turning your back on your opponent so that you can then throw him over your shoulder by his leg.
Realise that the above is JUST a Tangent to make a point - I dont think that Complexity needs to mean Inneficiency OR Inneficacy .
the simple technique may have just as much history behind the complex one, but if the person is taught only the complex one , with no drills behind it, and no follow up moves, the practioner can never fully defend himself in a fight.
WHAT ??? Thats CRAZY TALK !!!
Of COURSE you have to Have all that stuff ! What EVER gave you the NOTION that it WASNT there ??? These are Fighting SYSTEMS and they are WELL Integrated - ALL of them SO well Integrated that they ALL have Weapons Training that Ill pit againt Kali/Escrima any day ! My Classtime is spent 75-80% doing Active Partner Drills or Sparring . The REST of the time spent learning my "Homework" most of wich is learning how to Shadowbox (Forms) , how to STAND and MOVE and even BREATHE properly . Well that and learning the Principles of WHY Im doing what Im doing , but much of that is discussed while doing it .
for instance the dreaded kata.
We only dread that wich we do not understand , my man .
First , lets SAY that you used the word "FORMS" every time you said "KATA" . "Forms" is the DIRECT translation of the word in its intended state , and things are less alien when you say them in your own language , and therefore easier to Digest .
SOME forms are overly Complicated .
Tai Chi only has 13 Postures . The LONGEST version of its form has 108 movements . So you understand this is just REPITITION of the same 13 Postures . This is so that every Posture can be Demonstrated from every Level (Mid , Low , High) , Angle , and from both the Right and Left handed sides , AND so that you know how to transition (Link) the body from any one Position/Angle/Side to any other . Baguazhang has 8 Palms . The NAME of the system translates into "The Eight Trigram Palms" or "The 8 Directions Boxing" The SIMPLICITY of the system being that there are ONLY 8 ways you can hold (align) your hand , and really only 8 ways you can face , and if you master THOSE moements and their Combinations you have mastered yourself . There are ONLY 64 possible combinations , really . The other aspect of the system is its Footwork , wich literally RETEACHES you how to walk properly . Xingyiquan had FIVE "elements" (Enrergy Types you can hit with) And (at most complex) 12 "Animals" (Tactical Applications for said types of Power) . Thats 17 things . Yeah , you practice them at diffeent Levels and Angles and Right and Left Handed and Whatnot , but its really still JUST 17 things .
A STYLE MIGHT be Linear . And , then again , it might not . Baguazhangs CHIEF practice is called "Walking The Circle" and Taiji dosent have a straight line IN it ! there is ALWAYS a Curve in Taiji ! Systems like Goju Ryu are also Circular , and in (Good) Wing Chun and Xingyiquan , even though the systems LOOK oh SO VERY Linear , the POWER in them comes from a Spiraling of the Limbs that to the Untrained eye is often undetectable , but adds TREMENDOUSLY to the Power and Efficacy of the systems and their bilities to have tremendous power at short distances .
theres no reason why it should exist.
Jack Dempsy hmself said that the MOST Important drill in Boxing is Shadowboxing . Forms Training is how you fuse the moves with your Skin and Bones . Its how you get your Personal Rythym , and its how you develop REAL hitting Power . It teaches you to be Relaxed and Fluid . In Xingyi training all you do is ONE move , then you Drill it right after doing that energy from the form for 10-15 min to get the "feel" of it down . It makes your Practivce more Smooth and Fluid .
The PRIMARY goal in IMA for Forms Training is to teach "Whole Body Power" . A jab is an Arm Punch , it is a movement without muh in the way of body Harmony , or Synchronicity , but its accurate because its easy to Control . one would have MUCH more FORCE if you simply RAN at your opponent from 10 ft and SPRUNG your body into him at the last second , like a Tackle , rignt ? But that would be FAR less accurate and harder to Control , no ? So what is one to do ? You learn , THROUGH FORMS - how to use EVERY attack in your aresenal with such TOTAL co-ordination that you have EVERY Muscle in your WHOLE body behind it , while not moving in such a manner that youre moving Wildly . Even your TOES should ad to the power of EVERY move you make , without overbalancing you . Forms are about Changes of movement and Momentum , and how you deal with such thingsa while Hurtling your Limbs through space . Great Golfers arent Bigger guys or Bodybuilders , theyre ppl with PERFECT FORM . A Great Taiji fighter is like a great Golfer . His power comes NOT from his Body , or Muscles , or ANY Attribute . It comes because he can get his WHOLE body to use ALL its muscles to ONE SINGLE purpose at a Time . You Sink your Weight , you Base out , you turn your knees , swivel your Hips , and rotate your Spine , then you TRANSFER that energy UNBROKEN to the shoulders which must cause the arms to SMOOTHLY arc and then deliver power through the club to the ball . You cant do more Pushups , or more Steroids , and hit any better or Farther . you MUST PERFECT YOUR FORMS .
If a Form is ONLY a Collection of Techniques that you can do perfectly after being shown once then forms ARE Useless . REAL forms Training is like Mastering your Golf Swing . Youre ALWAYS getting better .
now in a fight, youre counting on the person to come at you at the right angle, right height, etc.
Who told you that ? No , you do not enter a Fight with ANY Expectations , and you enter prepared/allowing for any variation .
in boxing it teaches you to jab, cross, hook, uppercut, bob and weave shadow box. its simple to learn yet effective. if the boxer gets attacked, he can adapt and instinctively bob and weave, jab, cross, whatever, its jst much more effective.
And Boxing is a SPORT with some Combat applications . But honestly Boxing relies JUST as much on Conditioning and Physical Attributes as it does Science or Physics . Te goal of boxing has NEVER been to Create the most scientifically Sound System of Combat possible ! the goal of Boxing has ALWAYS been Sport , and Entertainment ! The WAY that ppl Boxed has TOTALLY changes since the 1900's and before , when ppl fought Bareknuckles , and fights went upward of 50 rounds ! The punches , Stances , Footwork , Power used , and Stances are ALL different . Im a STUDENT of Boxing History , man . The GOAL of Boxing - hell , the NAME of Boxing - is PUGILISM ! Pugilism at its core connotes a Tough Guy Contest thats ALL about who can Trade Blows and remain Standing . Yeah , in history some guys have some slipping and Dodging going on , but thats really just Self-Preservation - the REAL goal of Boxing is to see a Ward/Gatti fight . Lennox Lewis is BORING . Boxing is NOT a Martial Science . Its a RULESET that ppl tran tward . Its also a SHOW , and the rues are NOT set up to develop the best way to Fight and be safe . Theyre set up to put on the best show .
case in pooint: krav maga. the whole mantra of that system is something easy that comes thru instict and drill is far superior to something needlessly complex that can tire you out in the world.
Krav Maga Uses SRT , and SRT simply does NOT work . Krav Maga is going down the same Road as Aikido , and it sucks for some of the same reasons . Krave Maga is the EPITOME of Expecting your Opponent to do something Pre-Arranged . YOu have obviously not seen as many KM schools train as I have . ANY time the trainer says "When A Guy Does THIS with His Weapon ..." you know its BSMA . The ONLY ppl that claim KM that I know that are any good are either already great at some other skillset , or actually TEACHING a different skillset and CALLING it KM (most common is Boxing + Judo that I have seen)
Thats because the kick - AS YOU SEE IT - is not SUPPOSED to be "Used" ! Its a Training Excercise ! I do a few dozen of thoise every Morning right like Pushups and Situps ! The Idea is that if you can kick that highwith Speed and Power then you can kick LOWER at a FAR fasater rate . Its ALSO a FACT that if youre THAT Flexible then you are SO much MORE flexible than you will EVER need to be in any REAL encounter or "Cold" adn without Stretching . Its a training Paradigm thats been proven to work time and time again . Wing Chun has a STATED RULE : "No Kicks Above The Waist" . Its actually a RULE of the style ! And YET - There is a section of the second form where you do a SERIES of them JUST LIKE THAT ! But no one with any SENSE would try that crap in a FIGHT !
bruce lee knew all this, he took the best simplest moves out of loads of systems practised them thru drills and sparring, and threw out soo much useless crap and created one of the most complete arts ever: jeet kun do.
Jeet Kune Do is one of the most Useless Arts ever . Please , lets Keep Bruce Lee Discussions to the Topic that I made for you with your name in it about Bruce Lee . Bruce Lee was a Halfasser , Self-Important , And lazy . Note that as famous as Bruce was , and as many "Followers as he has none of his students , nor any of his STUDENTS students EVER won ANY Full Contact Title in ANY country that ANYONE takes seriously using the actual Fighting Methods that he taught . Even Dan Inosanto - BL's "Star Pupil" is teaching Muey Thai + Machado BJJ now .
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. too bad the free fighting/san shou class is only once a week, and for an hour. i hope this is enough. im more interested in the takedown aspect more than anything. taking down ppl then toying on the ground with them with BJJ would be fucking ownage.
