Legs, right above the knee...?

[WannaBPowerful]

I have pretty decent size upper legs, so im not worried about that. My problem is, the portion of my quads right above the knee is small. How would i build them up? Which exercises? I would like to really blast the hell out of them, and get them to grow. THANX

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Make you whole quad bigger and that area will get bigger - you're going to have a heck of a time trying to selectively target just your vastus medialis.

 

[The Shadow]

FULL squats, hacks, leg extensions with toes turned out

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Corn - How did I know you were going to say that?

 

[The Shadow]

Corn - How did I know you were going to say that?

because the truth shall set you free........

 

[gettinlarger]

there ya go, matrix face. yes, i said matrix face. im well aware.

 

[bignate73]

because the truth shall set you free........

so the truth be told, turning the feet in or out can lead to premature degradation to the underside of the kneecap. ultimately leading to chondromalacia. not to mention doing it with heavy weight (because most of the people on here will) can put some neat lateral stress on the ACL.

sound advice.

marshall penniford was spot on.....

 

[The Shadow]

so the truth be told, turning the feet in or out can lead to premature degradation to the underside of the kneecap. ultimately leading to chondromalacia. not to mention doing it with heavy weight (because most of the people on here will) can put some neat lateral stress on the ACL.

sound advice.

marshall penniford was spot on.....

So EMG analysis is useless????

Do the leg extensions as I described them and tell me where your soreness is located......

POF training and it's variations are the real deal

Try it for ANY exercise.

YOu guys who claim that isolation of a particular "PART" of a muscle is impossible need to try this:

Pick one exercise for a bodypart.

Do 8-10 sets of ten reps and determine where you are sore.

Next training day pick a different exercise and do the same reps and sets.

For example:

Preacher curls and concentration curls.

Preachers will make your sore in the lower bicep/forearm area, {} will make you sore high and outside on the peak....

 

[coolcolj]

front squats at a guess from own results

 

[the People's Champ]

front squats at a guess from own results

DEEP front squats

 

[coolcolj]

Yeah and I also do em with a pretty wide stance, well its a must for me to get upright.

Also vertical jumping puts meat there if your legs grow like mine.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Corn - I know where you stand on this, and respect your opinion, but your EMG analysis argument is flawed. Many factors can skew the results, which is why you see conflicting EMG studies all the time.

As far as soreness and "feeling" the muscle working, that has to do more with tendons, insertions and proprioception than any localized growth. Once you hit the muscle with a heavy enough load, the ability to selectively recruit seems to disappear. Even the majority of the PT community now realizes this as well.

 

[The Shadow]

Corn - I know where you stand on this, and respect your opinion, but your EMG analysis argument is flawed. Many factors can skew the results, which is why you see conflicting EMG studies all the time.

As far as soreness and "feeling" the muscle working, that has to do more with tendons, insertions and proprioception than any localized growth. Once you hit the muscle with a heavy enough load, the ability to selectively recruit seems to disappear. Even the majority of the PT community now realizes this as well.

So....how do you explain it to all the lifters such as the ones who have posted that "localized" growth happened when they chose an exercise like front squat

What do you mean by heavy enough load as the question is geared morte to bb'ing than plftng?

 

[MarshallPenniford]

The "localized" growth that they think they experience, is more likely a result of the muscle just recently growing (perhaps from a change in movement) and them attributing the increased size in the desired area to the excersise targeting the area, rather than the fact that, most likely, the whole muscle grew.

My comment about load has nothing to do with powerlifting type weights. Even with the weights used in bodybuilding, or even rehab, you're going to end up recruiting fibers from the whole muscle.

Can you show me a bodybuilder who has successfully changed the shape of one of their muscles without implants or synthol?

 

[The Shadow]

The "localized" growth that they think they experience, is more likely a result of the muscle just recently growing (perhaps from a change in movement) and them attributing the increased size in the desired area to the excersise targeting the area, rather than the fact that, most likely, the whole muscle grew.

My comment about load has nothing to do with powerlifting type weights. Even with the weights used in bodybuilding, or even rehab, you're going to end up recruiting fibers from the whole muscle.

Can you show me a bodybuilder who has successfully changed the shape of one of their muscles without implants or synthol?

Not a fair question as bb'ers use pof/multi angular training from day 1.

Larry Scott.

Look at his peak in his book Loaded Guns after doing spider curls exclusively - looked like Robby Robinson.....

So a muscle will grow due to a "change in movement"...isn't that what we are talking about arcs, angles and degrees of pull???


Why do you think most powerlifters and bb'ers LOOK so differently. Most lifters have flattish but huge muscles....

 

[MarshallPenniford]

I think the growth could occur from changing angles after a plateau of sorts has been reached. This has to do more with neurological factors, and the fact that of course, with non-hinged joint compound movements, you will change the focus on the muscles by changing the angle/grip etc. For example, you can change the muscles that your bench press is emphasizing (more triceps less pectorals), but you are not going to add extra mass to only the lower inch of your chest by doing declines.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Powerlifters vs. Bodybuilders? I think that's simply a body fat issue, and the fact that they are not training the same muscles that a BBer might. There is a strongman right now who is very, very lean. He looks just like a bodybuilder -- at least in the shots I saw.

 

[vinylgroover]

I'm with Marshall. I too don't buy the 'angles' theory.

I've never done anything other than bicep curls for my bi's, yet i have peaked biceps. I've never done lateral raises for delts yet i have 'capped' side delts. Try as i might, i just can't get away form the conclusion that all one can do is make a muscle larger or smaller. Genetics will bring out any other traits or inherent muscle characteristics such as shape, separation, striations etc.

 

[bignate73]

Do the leg extensions as I described them and tell me where your soreness is located......

you missed my point totally. i know how and when the VMO is active and i know the methods to rehabilitate the VMO but its not applicable to bodybuilding for the most part due to the extreme loads used. to add load to that via the leg extension FORCING the VMO to keep the kneecap on straight is bad advice. most of the young minds (and old) on here will take that advice and run with it and then when they "feel" it under their kneecap after repetitive overuse....they post some shit like "leg extensions ruined my knees" because they did them wrong to "isolate" the teardrop.

as for marshall's responses, again spot on as far as exercise science goes. it may go against the grain of gym science, the latest pro's advice or anecdotal evidence, but its the way things are.

 

[b fold the truth]

I don't like leg extentions at all...seems as if I always end up with knee problems when I do them very long or hard.

If you can't isolate...then do you mean that a squat is a squat? I do know that you can put different stress on a certain section of muscle or muscles if you do the exercise differently...for sure. I mean...if squat is a squat...then it would not matter how wide your stance was...but it does matter.

If a bodybuilder can not change the shape of their muscles...how on earth do they every bring up a lagging bodypart??? If they want to bring up the outer head of their tric...they can find a way. If they want to bring up their teardrop....they can do that too. They just need to find an exercise that puts more stress on those muscles.

I like hack squats or elevated heel squats for lower quad development. Full on both.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Gym science......??

It is simply unbelievable to think that your chest will look the same whether you do inclines exclusively or declines exclusively.....


Again - Larry Scott for his bis, tris and delts......look for a recent pic - the difference is amazing....

Fold is right on the money imo.

So - the general consensus seems to be that training can cause localized sorenesss, but that may or may not be where the stimulation actually occured??? Meaning that on preacher curls - although soreness is in the lower region - that doesn't mean that there was any greater emphasis on said area?????

Sorry - don't buy that.

 

[The Shadow]

btw - since someone brought up the chest - I know of numerous bb'ers who brought their upper chest into line with lower pecs by doing inclines only.....according to you guys that shouldn't be possible

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Corn - Again, it's just that inclines may have been a better stimulus for their pectorals. I do only inclines now and my chest looks no different then when I only did flat - it's just bigger overall. This is 10+ years later. Not that I'm saying my anectdotal evidence proves anything conclusively on that matter.

The fact is that the pectoralis major group consists of two "muscles" (the sternal and clavicular heads). It may not be beyond the realm of possibility that one who is genetically predisposed to having a large clavicular head may find that a certain excersise recruits this head more effectively than another (clearly this is not the case with my chest). But again, the more likely situation is that some people respond better to inclines, or just a change in movement, and attest the growth they are seeing to something it is not. Scientifically speaking, both heads of the pec major should fully "fire" when placed under significant load.

Bfold - A squat is a compound movement which also uses the hip, a joint that does not operate the same way the elbow or knee does. If you change your squat stance, just like changing your benching position or pull-up position, you will of course place the empasis on different muscles.

Lagging bodyparts are "brought up" by simply giving that individual bodypart more attention than others. It's not out of line with anything that I'm saying.

 

[The Shadow]

Scientifically speaking, both heads of the pec major should fully "fire" when placed under significant load.

/B]

...but yet that doesn't seem to be the case...


Then why not do simply one exercise for each bodypart then, since the exercise will hit all areas of the muscle - why not do simply flyes for chest or kickbacks for tris?

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Corn - Damn you respond fast! Yes, you could just do one excersise per bodypart. That's the way I train. I change some of them up every now and then just for variety, and again, because with compound movements you are going to change the emphasis by changing positioning/grip/etc, but all in all my workout stays just as you suggested.

Flyes most likely stimulate your chest more than a pressing movement, but we all know that there appears to be more favorable hormonal response from doing the compound movements, so IMO they are worth doing.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Also, realize that not all muscles can me trained this way, by design. The shoulder wouldn't respond well to only one isolation movement (or even compound movement), but each of the individual heads of the deltoid serve different functions, just as doing exclusively seated calf raises won't effectively develop you calves. Please don't think that is what I am advocating.

 

[The Shadow]

Flyes most likely stimulate your chest more than a pressing movement, but we all know that there appears to be more favorable hormonal response from doing the compound movements, so IMO they are worth doing.

True - exactly why you need a stretch position for every muscle group - ie - different exercises. = multi-angular = pof = so that the muscle is hit from origin to insertion

 

[bignate73]

you isolation guys keep missing the point....

muscle GROUPS work synergistically. quads work as a team with one having a better mechanical advantage at different points in the motion than another. wide, narrow, heels up, heels down. now you are talking about more than the quads. you are talking hams, adductors, glutes, calves. its not as cut and dry to talk about a multi joint MOVEMENT SPECIFIC exercise. if we were talking about a single joint movement then we can get into muscle specificity, but you didnt.

as for those nice heel up squats....great for getting some shearing forces on the knee...thats why you feel the stress so much above the knee, sure tons of quad involvement...but at what cost?


"Then why not do simply one exercise for each bodypart then, since the exercise will hit all areas of the muscle - why not do simply flyes for chest or kickbacks for tris?"

because you get whats called pattern overload. repetition through a patterned movement the body becomes accustomed and efficient at that movement and thus recruits the least amount of fibers to accomplish the task. simple changes can override that though....hence different movements, multiple angles, grips, tempo etc.

.....and yes....gym science.

 

[The Shadow]

, multiple angles

LMAO - isn't that pof training after all??????

 

[bignate73]

ah i see your point. maybe you shouldnt laugh too soon. yes multiple angles for pressing, extension etc. BUT... if you are referring to your idea that you should turn your toes out, you missed the point. if you are trying to use POF training as your argument, then a class in injury prevention and biomechanics might be in order as well. if you know anything about a hinge joint, you know it bends efficiently ONE WAY. anything outside that one way will produce shearing forces or stress on that joint laterally. since you were talking about the knee, then we are looking at the ACL, PCL and the MCL (ligaments that hold the knee under stress from hyperextension, excessive flexion and stress from side to side). so what you propose is to a) stress the knee laterally, under high load to strengthen, or increase muscle mass while at the same time weakening the very ligaments that hold the knee together under stress. POF is not the case when you turn the toes in or out, not by a stretch.

at the expense of sounding cautious, there are ways to train safely, effectively and still make progress in bodybuilding. (i know this is a stretch for this board)

 

[coolcolj]

Who does lots of front squats? Olympic weightlifters

Look at the legs of OL lifters in the lower weight classes where they are leaner.

Compare to powerlifters who do more back squats

 

[aurelius]

I don't like leg extentions at all...seems as if I always end up with knee problems when I do them very long or hard

Good reason for that b. Once I learned about the amount of sheer force placed on the knee when doing extensions in a seated position my jaw dropped. Did them religiously for years.

 

[The Shadow]

Good reason for that b. Once I learned about the amount of sheer force placed on the knee when doing extensions in a seated position my jaw dropped. Did them religiously for years.

 

[The Shadow]

Good reason for that b. Once I learned about the amount of sheer force placed on the knee when doing extensions in a seated position my jaw dropped. Did them religiously for years.

...interesting that they are the #1 most used re-hab exercise in PT.

Perhaps you were locking the knees at the top of the movement

 

[aurelius]

...interesting that they are the #1 most used re-hab exercise in PT.

with light weight, yes.

There´s a world of difference between re hab lifting and what I (and I assume you) do.

 

[The Shadow]

with light weight, yes.

There´s a world of difference between re hab lifting and what I (and I assume you) do.

Why did you stop doing them...problems?

 

[aurelius]

minor aches. I have problems at times with my left knee from something unrelated. They really gave my girlfriend some problems, however. Like I said, when I read about the sheer forces found to occur within the knee while doing that exercise, I left it. There are many others which are safer.

 

[BillPT]

FYI...open chain knee extension exercises are rarely used in knee rehab.

 

[b fold the truth]

When my knee hurts, I always do negatives only with the knee that hurts...high reps and low low low weight.

B True