Lateral Raises.....Volume or Heavy Weight?

[110%]

I disagree again. Fatiguing your muscles is a common myth (like supersets) that people follow thinking it'll build stronger muscles. The fact of the matter is that it is overload (not fatigue) that makes your muscles grow. Therefore, I'd warm-up, do a few weight acclimation sets, and then do 2-3 sets at 4-6 reps. Then move on to another exercise.

If you don't believe me, try it sometime. I think you'll find you get better results if you focus on putting all your efforts into the main sets, rather than saving some for the fatigue sets.

i think max-ot has you brainwashed, your words sound like the exact table of contents for the max-ot program over at ast-ss.com, i though the 4-6 reps range looked good and intense, but i only got to chapter 4 and realized alot of things i disagree with. first all they do is keep repeating overload, overload, max-ot maximizes...., max-ot maximizes...they say ppl that buy flaxseed oil it is pointless and a waste of money (i can show you the quote if u dotn remember reading that), they dont use any lactic acid buildup to advantage ever which would allow maximus stress of all muscle fibers if they did sometimes, they say burnouts are pointless and muscle memory (sounded like a bunch of bs to me) sounded pretty lame to me, the list goes on and on. i mean you should make some opinions for yourself b/c you are stating the exact same things that they teach and if you just rely on those principles your never gonna know if you could be getting better results. do u really think fatigue is pointless for the muscle? i think it can be pretty beneficial.

 

[LeviathanX]

110%... I believe what AST-SS says because it has worked for me. I've tried several routines (high rep, low rep, high frequency, low frequency, superset, trisets, dropsets, pyramid schemes etc.), and Max-OT has brought the best results. I'm not saying it'll bring everyone the best results, but at least they back up what they say with at least an inkling of science.

I mean... take a look at Jeff Willet. He doesn't take any gear, and he is a monster. He follows Max-OT to the 'T' and look where it got him. I know there is a lot of advertising and promotion on their site, but I ignore that and look for the explanation behind the training. From what I've seen it's solid.

Let me ask you. Why do you think fatiguing your muscles will make them grow? If you are fatiguing them, you are necessarily using less weight than if you were overloading them. Therefore, you're simply pumping lactic acid into your muscles which does nothing for muscle growth. Your muscles get bigger because they are damaged and grow as they are being repaired. Why not just focus on lifting a heavier weight, than saving some left for fatigue sets? If you can provide some evidence to convince me otherwise I'll gladly listen, but I follow Max-OT not because I'm brainwashed, but because it works.

 

[bignate73]

why is it that everyone asks for studies to disprove gym science or programs perpetuated by supplement companies. i thought we had all learned our lesson from muscle and fiction. there are plenty of professional journals that to studies on hypertrophy and strength, and those studies tend to be vastly different and tightly controlled. not just personal experience or what works for me.

the word 'overload' is being used way to freely here.

so its all about the number?

what about intensity? can that be measured quantitatively?

to the muscle, whats the difference between 25lbs and 75lbs?
nothing. its all about the number of fibers you can recruit and stimulate to grow. there are many ways to do this, one being over'load' the muscle with weight. the body will attempt to adapt regardless of the number on the weight, but the intensity one works at is the key.

and if its "microtear" or muscle damage you are looking for for growth.

try a nice slow set of 12 eccentric lateral raises(just the negative). take about 6 seconds to lower the weight and call me in the morning. want to talk muscle damage, there it is. guarantee you arent using the weight you would for 4-6 "heavy" raises.

 

[LeviathanX]

Max-OT is essentially HIT training. This type of training has been advocated since Mentzer's time, so I don't think it is a new 'program perpetuated by supplement companies'.

I don't know about these 6 second eccentric lateral raises. I just don't see how this will provide better muscle growth/microtears than 4-6 heavy reps using 2-3 seconds. I mean, there is no doubt you'll be sore after the slow reps, but remember there are slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers. I think with your method you are going to be hitting some of the outer muscle fibers, but to really stimulate those fibers deep down you're going to need some heavy weight.

Why do you think everyone advocates heavy presses, deadlifts, and squats as the main exercises to build muscle? Very few advocate light presses, deadlifts, or squats using slow rep schemes.

 

[bignate73]

the majority of the "studies" that most refer to for hypertrophy and strength use slow rep schemes. most definitely slower than any of the people training use. 4/2/0 or 3/2/1 at the fastest 2/2/0. most of these power movements that use heavy weights will take barely a second for the neg and positive (maybe longer on the positive depending on the load). so generally anything slower than that is considered "super slow"(no reference to superslow training). the reason for the lighter weights is for control and safety. quite frankly, most people dont like to be in pain for such a long duration. and as for "depth" of fibers used, hands down, you dig way "deeper" into your stores on a set like this as some fibers fatigue, others take over. type1 or 2, i dont care, they all get killed.

im not advocating this as the only way, but it is the rep tempos used in most strength and conditioning studies.

 

[LeviathanX]

Rep tempo has nothing to do with what type of routine you are doing. Whether you are doing a high rep scheme, or a low rep scheme (like Max-OT or the countless other ones out there) I use a 2 second concentric/4 second eccentric/0 pause tempo. I'm not saying you should be grabbing the biggest weight you can possibly handle and throw it around without any control. I'm saying that you should grab the biggest weight that you can handle and still have good (notice NOT perfect) form.

But hey, if your system works for you more power to ya. It doesn't really matter in the end as long as you are growing.

 

[thebigchief]

back to the lateral raises question - most raise exercises should be performed in the 10 - 15 rep range. And these types of exercises are excellent to superset together. Shoulders will respond well to these types of supersets. Shoulder joints can be delicate and very suseptible to injury. Heavy presses are ok, but lighter weight should be used in raise movements.


BigChief

 

[Phenotype X]

to the muscle, whats the difference between 25lbs and 75lbs?
nothing. its all about the number of fibers you can recruit and stimulate to grow. there are many ways to do this, one being over'load' the muscle with weight. the body will attempt to adapt regardless of the number on the weight, but the intensity one works at is the key.

I couldn't have explained it any better. It's all about the muscle fibers recruited.

 

[LeviathanX]

back to the lateral raises question - most raise exercises should be performed in the 10 - 15 rep range. And these types of exercises are excellent to superset together. Shoulders will respond well to these types of supersets. Shoulder joints can be delicate and very suseptible to injury. Heavy presses are ok, but lighter weight should be used in raise movements.


BigChief

Blanket statements like this is why I'm forced to present another point-of-view. Tell me BigChief, where did your information concerning raises come from? If its personal experience, fine... say so. If it is from scientific research, provide some articles.

 

[Welsh power house]

6-8 reps

decent form

But the real delt growth comes from d/b or b/b military presses, bench presses and back work(deads, rows..)