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is this the future of Bodybuilding ?
- Thread starter Maverick
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silver_shadow
New member
i'm not really into bodybuilding trivia... but call ronnie a freak or whatever - he didn't get that way by JUST juicing his liver out. the guy is still one of the strongest (if not the strongest) bodybuilders. arnie on the other hand may look great, but lifted pussy weights compared to coleman. yea, sure you can talk all about symmetry and aesthetics, but bodybuilding is also about being big, or else 150 lb male models would be winning olympias.
anyway, most of the guys who frequent this forum are more interested in weightlifting, so this is probably the wrong place to be starting a discussion about bodybuilding.
anyway, most of the guys who frequent this forum are more interested in weightlifting, so this is probably the wrong place to be starting a discussion about bodybuilding.
Protobuilder
New member
I can respect guys who do it successfully, but BB'ing IMO is quite boring. I'll leave it at that.
T
The Shadow
Guest
Shadow is quite correct in his analysis of Ronnie....most feel he could challenge all pling recoreds if he were to foucs on just that sport.
Everyone has see him pull 800+, squat the same in contest shape.
I saw a vid and tried to link it - he was doing front squats with 405.
The past look will never return.
Why??
Its not the Weider's etc who "run" the IFBB.....its the fans, we are to blame. We wish to see freaks
Everyone has see him pull 800+, squat the same in contest shape.
I saw a vid and tried to link it - he was doing front squats with 405.
The past look will never return.
Why??
Its not the Weider's etc who "run" the IFBB.....its the fans, we are to blame. We wish to see freaks
Illuminati
New member
The Shadow said:
I'm not trying to start some kind of debate here, but at the weight Ronnie is at, he would have to Pull more than 971 (current world record held by Andy Bolton) Squat over 1212 (world record held by Jeff Lewis) and bench over 1008 (world record held by Scot Mendelson)
you want to talk about how we have "all seen Ronnie's deadlift video." We have all also seen in the same video that Ronnie is using straps so that he can hold on to the bar. He did it for 2 reps (if my memory serves me correctly). the guy that i train with in Seattle (if you saw the deadlift video that I just posted, he's the guy in the back ground) weighs 242, has pulled 825 for a triple (no straps) and maxed out at 875, and done the same with his squat. I have also seen him front squat 600. and this is a guy who weighs about 60lbs less than ronnie.
here are some links to the "RONNIE LIFTS"
http://www.irongame.com/videos/RonnieColeman.800lbDL.GymLift.2reps.mpg
to see the squat video you will have to go to irongame.com, into the video section, and then scroll down to ronnie. the list is organized by first name. BTW, to eliminate the arguement, ronnie is suited in the squat video. the squat video is of him doing 800x2. after you look at the Ronnie video, look at the Chuck Vogelphol videos. You will see him squat 1000 at a weight of 220.
you can say that "if ronnie trained as a PLer then...." to that I say this. Powerlifting is not the over-glorified sport that BBing is. Winners of meets or contest seldomly win a cash prize, and very few PLers have sponsors that pay them money, at best they get free PL gear. In BBing, the winner of the Mr. O win's hundreds of thousands of dollars in prizes, and equally the same in sponsors. take away all the money, and Ronnie wouldn't be able to afford the $40k+ that he speands of steroids and growth hormone each year. instead, give ronnie a few thousand dollars to spend on juice per year, and see how strong he is then.
Tweakle
New member
hey SS, I've read that Arnie lifted some impressive weights when he was building his mass, the 50 set pumping stuff most people associate with arhnuld wasn't what built that mass.. it was more like his contest prep training. I think he benched 500 and squatted the same with a 700lb deadlift while training with reg park and other old timers who put the emphasis on strength.
Could be wrong tho, but he trained with Franco who also lifted a lot.
Ronnie is a strong son of a bitch, no doubt.. but so are most of the other big rugged guys, something the lil' weiners on the AAS forum talking about their 225 benches and how you don't have to lift big to get big don't realize.
Could be wrong tho, but he trained with Franco who also lifted a lot.
Ronnie is a strong son of a bitch, no doubt.. but so are most of the other big rugged guys, something the lil' weiners on the AAS forum talking about their 225 benches and how you don't have to lift big to get big don't realize.
T
The Shadow
Guest
Illuminati said:
You think that the top strongmen and plers don't shoot 10 grams of test etc per week??
I hope that is a joke.
This is not about bbing vs. pling....you can think bbing is "overglorified" or whatever adjective/adverb you wish to use.
Who cares what anyones "opinions" are about bbing or pling for that matter??
Remember - Ronnie tested natural at every pling and bbing event he entered until around 1992-93. He was pulling 800 at a competition bbing weight of 240ish THEN.
There will be tons of folks who doubt he was natty then - that's fine. You can look at the pics then versus 3-4 years later see what a HUGE difference there was.
I think he was 19 in this photo:
http://www.bigroncoleman.com/media/Begin03_LG.jpg
As a teenager - he was bigger than most of us can get after years of training.
Ronnie is also in his early 40's.
http://www.thebiguniverse.com/coleman/transform.html
^^^Freaking insane.
imo - You dont put on 80 pounds of lean body mass in your 30's and 40's without being really close to natural to begin with - which gets me back to his strength - dont think that it is simply because of gear usage.
BiggT
New member
I think Ronnie is the best bodybuilder in the world, because thats where 110% of his focus and energy goes. Sure, it's fun to play 'what if?' but these things always incite a war sooner or later. Ronnie is a strong guy, no doubt about it, there are a lot of stronger guys out there than him in powerlifting, strongman, weightlifting, throwing etc, but it is comparing apples to oranges, Ronnie trains to be the best bodybuilder in the world, and thats exactly what he is, whether all BB fans like his look or not. The guy is certainly very strong, but he isn't the strongest man on the planet and there is no use saying he 'could be' because thats not what he trains for now and its probably not what he'll ever train for......It's like saying Mariusz Pudzianowski COULD win the Olympia if he trained for it.....maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, it doesn't matter because thats not what he pours all of his efforts into.
jacked clown
New member
Ronnie reps 500 for 5 on bench with no suit and doesnt even train for max lifts. Hits 800 for a double in what like a single ply. Powerlifters i see anymore are just tubs who rely to much on suits. Bill Kazmier laughs at them.
Yea... suits dont help that much....scott mendelson couldnt even touch 1000 to his chest. Why dont people want to see how strong they are anymore? They rely to much on technology.
Yea... suits dont help that much....scott mendelson couldnt even touch 1000 to his chest. Why dont people want to see how strong they are anymore? They rely to much on technology.
Saying Ronnie used straps or whatever is really irrelevant to what he did. What people fail to realize is that those videos were taken only a short time before the O and during his contest prep mode. Contest prep meaning his carbs were cut and he was losing bodyweight and fat. If any of you fatties have dieted down you would realize how weak a person truly is in that condition. Give the man a bit of fat and some good eating of red meat and those genetics, he would blow away any lard ass powerlifter.
BiggT
New member
Not to start an internet pissing match here, but the fatty stuff and dieting down was directed to Illuminati, and he is DAMN LEAN. He's a ripped 212 and he pulls 600lbs, no straps, and natural......so I can sit here and argue that if he took boatloads of gear and gained 100lbs he'd pull 800 for a double.....see how ridiculous it is to have these "what if" arguments???
Again, not trying to start shit, just saying the lard ass comments are a little unfair considering who they were directed at. You can call me a lard ass if I post something along those lines though, that would be understandable, lol.
And another thing, dieting down does make one weak, but dieting down on a host of anabolic goodies isn't the same as just dieting down. And, as far as taking out any lard ass strength athlete, are you calling Mariusz Pudzianowski or Ryan Kennelley or Jesse Marunde or Derek Poundstone or Jon Anderson or Chuck Vogelpohl or Bill Kazmaier a 'lard ass' who Ronnie would blow away had he chosen to eat twinkies and hot dogs, because save for contest day at the Olympia, any of those guys EASILY has lower bodyfat than Ronnie 364 out of 365 days a year.
Ronnie very well could have been one of the strongest men who ever breathed, I am not saying that he isn't stronger than 99% of the population could ever be, steroids or not, its just that I feel it is a little unfair to say he'd blow away some of the strongest guys who have ever lived if he were 'fat' is a little ridiculous.
For argument's sake, I do seriously think Mark Henry has the bets genetics for strength of any human who has ver walked the face of the Earth....I also think he wasted that potential in the WWE, but the WWE paid him millions so I can't blame him....but it is useless to say Henry would have destroyed everyone in powerlifting and strongman IF he chose to train for it soley....IFs don't make a case.
Again, not trying to start shit, just saying the lard ass comments are a little unfair considering who they were directed at. You can call me a lard ass if I post something along those lines though, that would be understandable, lol.
And another thing, dieting down does make one weak, but dieting down on a host of anabolic goodies isn't the same as just dieting down. And, as far as taking out any lard ass strength athlete, are you calling Mariusz Pudzianowski or Ryan Kennelley or Jesse Marunde or Derek Poundstone or Jon Anderson or Chuck Vogelpohl or Bill Kazmaier a 'lard ass' who Ronnie would blow away had he chosen to eat twinkies and hot dogs, because save for contest day at the Olympia, any of those guys EASILY has lower bodyfat than Ronnie 364 out of 365 days a year.
Ronnie very well could have been one of the strongest men who ever breathed, I am not saying that he isn't stronger than 99% of the population could ever be, steroids or not, its just that I feel it is a little unfair to say he'd blow away some of the strongest guys who have ever lived if he were 'fat' is a little ridiculous.
For argument's sake, I do seriously think Mark Henry has the bets genetics for strength of any human who has ver walked the face of the Earth....I also think he wasted that potential in the WWE, but the WWE paid him millions so I can't blame him....but it is useless to say Henry would have destroyed everyone in powerlifting and strongman IF he chose to train for it soley....IFs don't make a case.
BiggT
New member
AAP said:
I don't see where you drew that conclusion if you read the whole post, but I am not looking to argue. As far as powerlifters, look to the 220 class and below and you'll see your fair share of 6 packs......as for the heavier guys, when coming with a 6 pack increases performance, then you'll get your wish, some people view 'cutting' as just as silly as you view carrying extra bodyfat to be stronger.
T
The Shadow
Guest
BiggT said:
Of course he would - again - he trains SPECIFICALLY for strength.
A couple of post up, somone made a comment about plers in general - that was not directed at Illum - I think that's actually pretty clear.
Cynical Simian
New member
+1 to this and T's other posts.BiggT said:
I grow weary of this BB vs. PL mindset so many people seem to have. I guess it's considered a natural comparison because the primary means of training is similar, but the specifics of that training and ends are completely different. Like T said, it might be interesting to throw out counterfactuals or admire feats outside a guy's area of specialization, but there aren't really any definite conclusions to be reached. Would anyone really care how long it would take Maurice Greene to run a marathon or Paul Tergat to run 100 meters?
T
The Shadow
Guest
BiggT said:
A couple of things:
I never said anything about him being the strongest man on the planet -I dont consider the record holders in PLing to be the "strongest" men on the planet - too much variety in the strongmen field to even say that.
Someone mentioned bbing being over glorified - thats an opinion.
I stated that there are some folks who feel that Ronnie could break records - that is also an opinion.
You can say that Marius COULD win the Mr. O all day long - it's not offending anyone.
Do you see the slight double standard here??
This arguing back and forth is
T
The Shadow
Guest
Cynical Simian said:
again - this isnt and wasnt meant to BE a bbers v. plers...
and its not that much like apples and oranges.
We are talking about somone who evryone will agree has a tremendous natural strength base and thinking aloud the possibilities.
so - apples and oranges - no.
peas and carrots - maybe
Cynical Simian
New member
lol, the BB vs. PL thing wasn't directed at you (or BiggT). Like you said in your first post and have continued to say, it's speculation about what someone might've done if he'd directed his efforts and potential elsewhere. I just find it odd that people (again, not you) so readily apply the criteria from one sport when judging another with bodybuilding and powerlifting when they'd think it absurd to do so with other sports.The Shadow said:We are talking about somone who evryone will agree has a tremendous natural strength base and thinking aloud the possibilities.
so - apples and oranges - no.
peas and carrots - maybe
T
The Shadow
Guest
Cynical Simian said:
Totally agreed.
I wish folks weren't quite as quick to assume a presonal slant on general topics and statements
BiggT
New member
I wasn't talking about your post either Shadow, for what its worth, I thought you stated your opinion well....I was referring to the one that said 'if any of you fat asses ever cut' and 'ronnie would beat any lard ass powerlifter'.....as Illuminati's post sparked it, and ironically Illumanati is probably one of the leanest guys on this whole site.
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T
The Shadow
Guest
T- I didnt see his post quoted in anyone's reply.
I really think it was a comment in general......
WE need some Midol over here...LOL(note I said "we" not you or yall)
LOLOL
I really think it was a comment in general......
WE need some Midol over here...LOL(note I said "we" not you or yall)
LOLOL
BiggT
New member
No, you're right, he didn't 'direct' it, it is just how I would take the comments if my post sparked them, but thats just me, I didn't say I took it personally, just backing up Illuminati, by the way I don't agree with Illuminati's initial post for what thats worth, but he definitely ain't a "fat powerlifter" by any stretch.
I feel a little retarded for giving this thread more attention than it deserved, and I am done with it now, as I think it was started with the sole intention of igniting a war and flame-fest anyway (not a war about BB vs PL or strongman or anything, but a war about golden-era physiques vs new ones).
So my apologies if I offended anyone or stepped out of line.
PS
I prefer Advil for cramps, Midol gives me headaches and hot flashes.
I feel a little retarded for giving this thread more attention than it deserved, and I am done with it now, as I think it was started with the sole intention of igniting a war and flame-fest anyway (not a war about BB vs PL or strongman or anything, but a war about golden-era physiques vs new ones).
So my apologies if I offended anyone or stepped out of line.
PS
I prefer Advil for cramps, Midol gives me headaches and hot flashes.
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T
The Shadow
Guest
Monistat All Around
Cynical Simian
New member
Oh, definitely. He's the same guy who made a "Why do you guys juice? Is it to compensate for your lack of self-esteem?" thread in the Anabolic Forum a while back. But that doesn't mean the bulk of the replies weren't intelligent and informative. Some very good threads on here have achieved that status despite the best efforts of the OP (e.g. Ilovetolift's "new routine" thread a couple weeks ago).BiggT said:
ErikZ
New member
BiggT said:
T, you took the words out of my mouth (proverbially speaking)> Mariusz physique is amazing for a powerlifter...
And yes, go check out the lighter weight's categories in PL, you will see some pretty ripped guys and gals there.
I hate the stereotype that all plifters are fat.
I'd go one step further and say PL technique helped me learn to stay lean rather than fighting that constant battle.
I'm not a Plifter per se, that is I don't train for competition, and have since modified the Westside template to suit my needs. When I first started it though, it emphasis on getting the parts to work toward the whole (bench, squat, DL max) as well as the importance of GPP was a revelation to me in terms of training efficiency.
Nowadays I'm stronger,sure, but I'm also way more physically fit. I have more energy both inside and outside of the gym. And I'm unexpectedly bigger, with better symmetry.
It all goes back to what was said before about solid application of theory in whatever pursuit you choose. I just wanted to use my example to illustrate the other side of the coin. Unless you're training specifically for sport, I think the gym is pretty much an open field: a place where there will be as many correct ways to acheive your goals as there are individuals.
I'm not a Plifter per se, that is I don't train for competition, and have since modified the Westside template to suit my needs. When I first started it though, it emphasis on getting the parts to work toward the whole (bench, squat, DL max) as well as the importance of GPP was a revelation to me in terms of training efficiency.
Nowadays I'm stronger,sure, but I'm also way more physically fit. I have more energy both inside and outside of the gym. And I'm unexpectedly bigger, with better symmetry.
It all goes back to what was said before about solid application of theory in whatever pursuit you choose. I just wanted to use my example to illustrate the other side of the coin. Unless you're training specifically for sport, I think the gym is pretty much an open field: a place where there will be as many correct ways to acheive your goals as there are individuals.
Illuminati
New member
The Shadow said:
ok. fair enough. you want to say that the gear has helped people to achieve unimaginable feats of strength. I personaly think Mendelson and Rychlak's lifts are a bunch of BS. they dont even hold the bar at lock out prior to starting the lift. But you said that Ronnie would set records, so I gave you what the current records are.
you want to talk about some more practical records. check out the New England Record Breakers meet that was held a few months back. This was a completely RAW meet. This means no bench shirts, no squat suits, and no deadlift suits; just a belt, and maybe some knee wraps. Here are some highlights:
Sam Byrd weighed 212
705 Squat
430 Bench
600 Deadlift
1735 Total
Donnie Thompson SHW (which means he is over 308)
805 Squat
565 Bench
800 Deadlift
2170 Total
Brian Siders SHW
785 Squat
695 Bench
849 Deadlift
2230 Total
It wasn't at the NERB, but Scot Mendelson has Benched 701 Raw.
The whole point of my original post was not directed at any one in particular. It simply b/c you said that Ronnie would set records, and I am telling you that I dont think he would. You really have no idea how hard it is go up 50lbs in a squat once you get over the 600lb mark. Or how hard it is to go up 50lbs in the bench once you get over the 450 mark. Or 50lbs in the Deadlift, once you get over 550.
And to the comment that PLers are all fat tubs of lard...I'll give you that, but only in the 275 and up weight classes. The 242's and under and pretty damn lean. Get into the 220's and you will see some pretty jacked guys. Drop into the 198 and under, and you will see some guys that could win BBing shows.
T
The Shadow
Guest
Illuminati said:
wanna cuddle??
LOL
j/k
Protobuilder
New member
What are you guys talking about? Everyone knows Rezazadeh could win the Olympia if he trained for it and that all OLY-lifters are > strongmen, who are > powerlifters (who are fat) and are > than BB'rs who are all gay.
Maverick
New member
al420 said:
listen juicer, how do you have time to make this slandering post ? dont you have to check your blood presuure or inject yourself in the ass ?
I am at a very lean 170lbs, I stay that way because I am going to compete in MMA. I have already competed in Boxing and Grappling events.
I am pretty damn strong for my weight and I am at single digit bodyfat.......
so your comments are pretty stupid, I have no intentions of becoming A PL or BB.... I am an athlete, I played Basketball at a high level, I play hockey, I wrestle, I box and I workout... not too mention I have a 28 inch vert and I can run pretty damn fast.
what do you do other then inject drugs in your ass and push iron ? can you run up a flight of stairs without being out of breath ? or are you too busy shaving your back hair and buying rogaine because of the shit you inject in your body !!!
what a joke......
anyway, back to my thread
some interesting points guys, a bit off topic but interesting !!!
I really was just talking about the looks of today's bodybuilders and the old timers.
I prefer the look of the old timer's , they look really nice.... todays generation of BB's look like freaks
(too darn big)
Illuminati
New member
The Shadow said:
as long as you dont try any of the funny stuff on me again like you did the last time....
silver_shadow
New member
guys, why all this PL vs BB animosity. look at the guy who started the post. for those who aren't familiar:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6359142#post6359142
this guy claims to be alot of things including an "athlete" and yet i've never seen him post about training of any form. the latest addition to his e achievements seems to be basketball at "a very high level". really? at 170lbs your either under 6ft which means basketball is pretty much ruled out unless your talking about playing in the lollypop league. if your anywhere over 6ft3 even at 170, you couldn't be much of an athlete anyway... maverick - go join bb.com... they want you there.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6359142#post6359142
this guy claims to be alot of things including an "athlete" and yet i've never seen him post about training of any form. the latest addition to his e achievements seems to be basketball at "a very high level". really? at 170lbs your either under 6ft which means basketball is pretty much ruled out unless your talking about playing in the lollypop league. if your anywhere over 6ft3 even at 170, you couldn't be much of an athlete anyway... maverick - go join bb.com... they want you there.
BiggT
New member
LOL....I remember this guy now....he popped over on the training board a little while back and was arguing the superiority of the Smith machine, and he got into it with Guiness (I think), lol, and he said something along the lines of 'screw you, my legs have better tone and I'm more handsome, ask any girl on here'....lol.
But yes, I agree that modern times and 'specialization' have taken away from the comraderie that all people who lift weights SHOULD share. Old timers tell me of a time when bodybuilding contests, YES, BB contests included a portion where competitors had to do a clean and jerk and a snatch....kind of like being the total package, that was pretty cool I thought.
But yes, I agree that modern times and 'specialization' have taken away from the comraderie that all people who lift weights SHOULD share. Old timers tell me of a time when bodybuilding contests, YES, BB contests included a portion where competitors had to do a clean and jerk and a snatch....kind of like being the total package, that was pretty cool I thought.
theprofessor
New member
i feel like i've become stupder just reading your dumbass post...Maverick said:listen juicer, how do you have time to make this slandering post ? dont you have to check your blood presuure or inject yourself in the ass ?
I am at a very lean 170lbs, I stay that way because I am going to compete in MMA. I have already competed in Boxing and Grappling events.
I am pretty damn strong for my weight and I am at single digit bodyfat.......
so your comments are pretty stupid, I have no intentions of becoming A PL or BB.... I am an athlete, I played Basketball at a high level, I play hockey, I wrestle, I box and I workout... not too mention I have a 28 inch vert and I can run pretty damn fast.
what do you do other then inject drugs in your ass and push iron ? can you run up a flight of stairs without being out of breath ? or are you too busy shaving your back hair and buying rogaine because of the shit you inject in your body !!!
what a joke......
anyway, back to my thread
some interesting points guys, a bit off topic but interesting !!!
I really was just talking about the looks of today's bodybuilders and the old timers.
I prefer the look of the old timer's , they look really nice.... todays generation of BB's look like freaks
...do you realize that all types of athletes use AAS... my cardio capacity has increased after using... someday you will step in the ring with your cocky attitude against AAS and you'll get your precious face split open...
biggt said:
Actually to enter the Mr. America you had to have some kind of sport to meet the athletic qualification. At that time and previous some of the OL meets would have a physique contest (think John Grimek, he used to clean up) and this is where BBing sprung from. Logically, the sport most people utilized to qualify was weightlifting as this is where they all got their start. Weider got hold of it and changed that eventually. Drugs entered the mix, York blew up, Arthur Jones managed to nearly kill off OL, squatting, deadlifting, rowing, cleaning, snatching, and overhead pressing with his bullshit and the rest is history.
Unfortunately, competitive BBing has flourished in the mainstream but it's also become grossly distorted from the origins of improving oneself. Think about the old tagline from Strength and Health Magazine "Devoted to the Culture of Mind and Body." This is what it was all about, also notice that MIND is actually ahead of BODY - and this wasn't bullshit and not included or focused on either. Real health and fundamental improvement of oneself - not some fake facade to pull over the eyes of others or to make up for some insecurity. http://cgi.ebay.com/STRENGTH-HEALTH...854QQihZ008QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I recently hit the USAW museum in York, PA and they have some fabulous exhibits about the origins of physical culture, some awesome old time equipment (custom dumbell loadable to 1500lbs for a hip lift), and traced modern weightlifting, powerlifting, and bodybuilding through the past 100 years.
IMO, bodybuilding has to change. It's just unhealthy and doing a lot of social harm in distorting people's notion of self image and what a human body should or can look like. They hide the total reliance on huge dosages of drugs from the public and feed crap info on training to promote the 'sport' and sell magazines. Although a number of people would likely be impacted, I'd honestly like to see some government entity intervene and require IOC drug testing. Granted, it would absolutely destroy modern bodybuilding (and yeah, I say this even realizing the drugs will still be there to some degree but the testing will keep it from it's current rediculousness) but from the standpoint of our culture and its impact on our youth - it would be a very positive thing in my opinion.
gjohnson5
New member
Interesting thread , but alot of comparing apples to oranges. Obviously this is all speculation. But from the sounds of this thread Elite needs more folks to train as powerlifters so they can get an idea of how hard it is to make lift gains after you reach a certain level
I was impressed by illuminati's pulling video. He's a small guy who can pull a good deal , so the "lard ass" comments definitly don't apply to him. Infact the idea of lumping PL'ers into one catagory of "lard asses" was kinda unbelievable considering that the serious folks posting on here are serious into lifting.
Also I liked the Columbo point. Franco was a man who competed in both Mr Olympias and World Strongest Man competitions. There needs to be more folks like him to set the record straight
Peace
I was impressed by illuminati's pulling video. He's a small guy who can pull a good deal , so the "lard ass" comments definitly don't apply to him. Infact the idea of lumping PL'ers into one catagory of "lard asses" was kinda unbelievable considering that the serious folks posting on here are serious into lifting.
Also I liked the Columbo point. Franco was a man who competed in both Mr Olympias and World Strongest Man competitions. There needs to be more folks like him to set the record straight
Peace
gjohnson5 said:
You are dead on.
Basically, you can spot someone who knows absolutely nothing about about powerlifting by the typical lard-ass comment - it's an instant giveaway. That's totally true for SHW and they've expanded to a number of high weight classes (i.e. SHW for PL is almost 100lbs over what SHW is for OL and there are a number of classes in between so they've kind of catered to the whole get as big as possible thing too but you generally won't see anyone anywhere near fat at 242 and under and that's a huge number of guys).
Columbo was beastly strong - he has a classic deadlift picture that I encourage anyone who hasn't seen it to search for, just stunning. He as well as Lou Ferrigno competed in WSM. Bodybuilders actually used to be functionally strong and athletic in that era and before. Arnold was also a strong guy with solid lifts, he just wasn't built for in gym performance to compete on those exercises and he was doing well enough where he didn't have to. Sergio also comes to mind, I forget exactly what he snatched but it was rock solid.
BiggT
New member
Yeah, Sergio actually got his start in Olympic lifting in Cuba (I think he is from Cuba) but I know he got his start as a weightlifter.
Ferrigno, I have to respect him because he cared about strength and performance as did most guys who were bodybuilders pre-1980, but did you ever see that old 'superstars' video where he is jerking against Brian Oldfield, and Oldfield just made him look ridiculous. Ferrigno didn't finish any of his jerks and he was all over the floor like a train wreck, while Oldfield was putting on a smoke show...and NO height/long armed comments from anybody, lol, they shook hands at the end and Oldfield was easily at least 2 inches taller than Ferrigno......I always liked Franco a lot......and I think Arnold was a strong guy, I think in terms of strength he would have been better at things like throwing or odd-lifts which became the sport of Strongman, as he wasn't built leverage-wise to press and squat, but he could certainly apply gym strength to real life situations with those leverages, but he made millions, so I am sure he has no regrets, lol.
Ferrigno, I have to respect him because he cared about strength and performance as did most guys who were bodybuilders pre-1980, but did you ever see that old 'superstars' video where he is jerking against Brian Oldfield, and Oldfield just made him look ridiculous. Ferrigno didn't finish any of his jerks and he was all over the floor like a train wreck, while Oldfield was putting on a smoke show...and NO height/long armed comments from anybody, lol, they shook hands at the end and Oldfield was easily at least 2 inches taller than Ferrigno......I always liked Franco a lot......and I think Arnold was a strong guy, I think in terms of strength he would have been better at things like throwing or odd-lifts which became the sport of Strongman, as he wasn't built leverage-wise to press and squat, but he could certainly apply gym strength to real life situations with those leverages, but he made millions, so I am sure he has no regrets, lol.
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The Shadow
Guest
Lou stumbled on the OHP events mainly because his waist was "small"...I believe he either won or was 2nd in the car deadlift....
bbers dont perform well in overhaed pressing in general due to waist structure
bbers dont perform well in overhaed pressing in general due to waist structure
gjohnson5 said:
I think it's also in order to make gains in order to reach a certain level. Someone's progress stall out and they wonder why. Powerlifting is 100% geared towards overcoming that next plateau. Many bodybuiders would benefit from cycling in some strength training from time to time, tho perhaps not so much as they acheive elite status.
More plifters have been exposed to bodybuilding theory than the other way around. It can be very difficult to change someone's ideas of what correct training is. But why ignore the major advances that have been made in terms of lifting technique because of artificially defined boundaries?
BiggT
New member
This may be an entirely new subject, but it always pissed me off. It has to deal with the 'culture' bodybuilding developed post-1980ish....In "Ironman" did anyone ever catch the faggotty pics they print in Bill Starr's column.....he'll have an article on snatching, and then Neveaux has the nerve to put a pic of some shirtless twink in spandex and combat boots and a fanny pack doing a seated smith machine press.
Tweakle
New member
Well, when your main audience is composed of lil guys who want to wrassle the big bodybuilders and sexually confused teenagers you can't blame them for putting up homo-erotic pictures in the magazines.
as an aside, I believe maverik has lovely toned legs from all the smith squats he does, and if you don't like his post then post your face so the ''ladies'' can decide who's better looking. Or a cock pic.
Illuminati is small? lol
as an aside, I believe maverik has lovely toned legs from all the smith squats he does, and if you don't like his post then post your face so the ''ladies'' can decide who's better looking. Or a cock pic.
Illuminati is small? lol
BiggT
New member
Yes, Yes, wealthy "admirers" willing to help guys pay for truckloads of AAS and ancillaries through "muscle worship" session, lol.
Tweakle said:Well, when your main audience is composed of lil guys who want to wrassle the big bodybuilders and sexually confused teenagers you can't blame them for putting up homo-erotic pictures in the magazines.
as an aside, I believe maverik has lovely toned legs from all the smith squats he does, and if you don't like his post then post your face so the ''ladies'' can decide who's better looking. Or a cock pic.
Illuminati is small? lol
BiggT
New member
Shadow, the small waist is true in terms of ultimate potential, and I agree with you generally speaking, but you have to admit core strength and training standing up and functionally has a lot to do with it also....Olfield is 6'4 or 6'5 and probably weighed 265-280 tops, he wasn't exactly the teddy-bear type prototypical upper body presser, and probably weighed as much or less than Lou....he was a fast twitch machine though.
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The Shadow
Guest
American record:
140kg/308lb
Squat 337.5 744.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Bench Press 245.0 540.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Deadlift 287.5 633.7 Art Labare 08/14/04
TOTAL 870.0 1918.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Knowing that we have seen Coleman both Squat AND pull 800+ and there is film of him benching over 500...are we all in agreement about him breaking records??
Seriously......
140kg/308lb
Squat 337.5 744.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Bench Press 245.0 540.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Deadlift 287.5 633.7 Art Labare 08/14/04
TOTAL 870.0 1918.0 Art Labare 08/14/04
Knowing that we have seen Coleman both Squat AND pull 800+ and there is film of him benching over 500...are we all in agreement about him breaking records??
Seriously......
gjohnson5
New member
Tweakle said:Well, when your main audience is composed of lil guys who want to wrassle the big bodybuilders and sexually confused teenagers you can't blame them for putting up homo-erotic pictures in the magazines.
as an aside, I believe maverik has lovely toned legs from all the smith squats he does, and if you don't like his post then post your face so the ''ladies'' can decide who's better looking. Or a cock pic.
Illuminati is small? lol
He does look like a small guy
Check out his vid
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6426683&postcount=1
gjohnson5 said:
I believe the correct term would be 'quality muscle mass'.
c3bodybuilding
New member
No, that could have been the future of bodybuilding if Weider was still in control. It is now David Peckers show, not Weiders. Weider no longer owns the Olympia or the mags. He is probably going to die very soon as well. Weider only cared about catering to the fans who loved the hard core freaks. Pecker wants money and he knows he has to make it more mainstream. After Ronnie, Jay and the other mass monsters are gone, they are gone. Phil Heath at only 26 just won his first two pro shows, total x frame all the way. Then you have Francis, Gary and Vince bringing their 80's builds back to the stage now.
Also there's the new Pro Division run by Wayne Demlia. He said his idea of a world champion is 6'4, 260 and lean with good looks. I love the freaks but their days are over. With the worlds negative view on bodybuilders and steroids and the shows not making the money AMI wants, it's a whole new era. I think it's good. It's sick that these guys are having heart attacks left and right and needing oxygen back stage just to go on with prejudging.
Also there's the new Pro Division run by Wayne Demlia. He said his idea of a world champion is 6'4, 260 and lean with good looks. I love the freaks but their days are over. With the worlds negative view on bodybuilders and steroids and the shows not making the money AMI wants, it's a whole new era. I think it's good. It's sick that these guys are having heart attacks left and right and needing oxygen back stage just to go on with prejudging.
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The Shadow
Guest
C3bodybuilding said:
Well stated but I think its a bit off as it is the FANS who dictate what the athletes look like.
Its why Natty shows have the attendence that they do.
Remember the WBF when they drug tested??
BiggT
New member
The Shadow said:
It's funny, isn't it?? People claim that pro BBs look ridiculous, they say the look is unattainable and comes with a high risk and thus they have no interest.....BUT, you give them the WBF or 'natural bodybuilding' and they have zero interest because the guys don't look that big, lol. People love freaks, thats all there is to it.
The other interesting thing is with things more 'mainstream' like when Stallone had that boxing show, he used middleweights, which is because most women and gays tend to be attracted to 5'9-ish 175ish guys with an athletic build, and most teenagers and guys feel they CAN actually look like that....if they used 6'1 240lb heavyweights, they probably wouldn't have gotten the younger girls and gay guys to switch over from 'American Idol' or whatever the hell they watch, so then all you'd get are hardcore fans and people looking for a 'freak show', a much smaller demographic than boy crazy, hormone fueled teenage girls , horned up gay men, and insecure teenage boys and guys who probably feel 175lbs is huge and jacked and 'plenty big enough'...then the show would tank......you gotta love the society we live in in America in 2006. I've got the answer....give BB weightclasses, then do a reality show with guys in the 155-175 range and the sport of bodybuilding will explode. Hardcore lifters will be alienated and guys like you and I will be on discussion boards talking about how ghey it is, but you'd have an instant mainstream thing though, lol.
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c3bodybuilding
New member
David Pecker doesn't care what the current fans think. He thought when he bought out Joe Weider and most of the IFBB, he was getting into something that would make him even more rich than he currently is. As a businessmen he doesn't care about bbing only money. He's not happy that it just has a cult following. And that's where the IFBB may just die. If he thinks he will attract a new mainstream group of fans and sponsors, he is sorely mistaken. Bbing is an oddball sport as well all know. The only people who will pay are the ones who love the freaks. Wayne Demillia thinks the answer is taking his Pro Division and most of his shows (except for the NOC) to Japan. He thinks they will go for that look more over there.
I hope Wayne knows what he is doing, because rumor has it if David Pecker doesn't start seeing a profit, he is going to no longer host the Olympia and basically sell off his stake in the IFBB and magazines. If he does that, Ben Weider has the option of taking it back (The O, not the mags) and either hosting it himself or finding some one new to do it. I think that's what should have happened in the first place. David Pecker has made the Olympia a joke. Holding it in that crack house hotel. You should see the place. There are burn holes all over the carpet. At least Wayne and Weider held it at the Mandalay.
It's amazing how everyone thought Joe was a greedy prick, but now we see the truth. He actually loved the sport. At the Olympia a couple of years ago Joe wanted to come out on stage and hand medals out with Arnold and David. He also wanted to give a speach as he felt it would be the last time he would be able to attend. David told Joe he didn't have time for him. I thought that was messed up. Poor guy created all of it and he wasn't even allowed to say goodbye.
I hope Wayne knows what he is doing, because rumor has it if David Pecker doesn't start seeing a profit, he is going to no longer host the Olympia and basically sell off his stake in the IFBB and magazines. If he does that, Ben Weider has the option of taking it back (The O, not the mags) and either hosting it himself or finding some one new to do it. I think that's what should have happened in the first place. David Pecker has made the Olympia a joke. Holding it in that crack house hotel. You should see the place. There are burn holes all over the carpet. At least Wayne and Weider held it at the Mandalay.
It's amazing how everyone thought Joe was a greedy prick, but now we see the truth. He actually loved the sport. At the Olympia a couple of years ago Joe wanted to come out on stage and hand medals out with Arnold and David. He also wanted to give a speach as he felt it would be the last time he would be able to attend. David told Joe he didn't have time for him. I thought that was messed up. Poor guy created all of it and he wasn't even allowed to say goodbye.
Tweakle
New member
If that's his biz plan he'll lose more cash than vince did on the WBF. The kicker is, joe sixpack can't tell the difference between arnie and ronnie, to the average person they all look the same.
I remember back when I was a kid thinking the Red Hot Chili Peppers were jacked, I know better now but 99% of the population doesn't really have any frame of reference or interest in looking at muscled men.
If you look at the average M&F or bowflex model, they're still 'way too big' for most people which is why Mens Fitness outsells even the softest bodybuilding as Stroke mag of choice for the discerning Twink.
I remember back when I was a kid thinking the Red Hot Chili Peppers were jacked, I know better now but 99% of the population doesn't really have any frame of reference or interest in looking at muscled men.
If you look at the average M&F or bowflex model, they're still 'way too big' for most people which is why Mens Fitness outsells even the softest bodybuilding as Stroke mag of choice for the discerning Twink.
Protobuilder
New member
BiggT said:
That's my target audience.
FWIW, the Columbo/Ferrigno strongman competition is discussed in either the last or second to last edition of MILO. What? You mean you like strength sports and haven't subscribed to MILO yet? Yeah, you must be ghey.
c3bodybuilding
New member
I remember back when I was a kid thinking the Red Hot Chili Peppers were jacked, I know better now but 99% of the population doesn't really have any frame of reference or interest in looking at muscled men.
If you look at the average M&F or bowflex model, they're still 'way too big' for most people which is why Mens Fitness outsells even the softest bodybuilding as Stroke mag of choice for the discerning Twink.>>>
You read my mind. I remember being 14 and thinking Stallone in Rambo 2 was HUGE. Now I think he just looked like a really lean guy. I always see people pointing out guys on tv or in person around 6'2 190 and then comment on how jacked they are.
In real life if this training board all got together and went out, people would look at us like we are all pro's and freaky.
If you look at the average M&F or bowflex model, they're still 'way too big' for most people which is why Mens Fitness outsells even the softest bodybuilding as Stroke mag of choice for the discerning Twink.>>>
You read my mind. I remember being 14 and thinking Stallone in Rambo 2 was HUGE. Now I think he just looked like a really lean guy. I always see people pointing out guys on tv or in person around 6'2 190 and then comment on how jacked they are.
In real life if this training board all got together and went out, people would look at us like we are all pro's and freaky.
Protobuilder
New member
I'm probably getting way off topic (sorry OP, LoL), but as I get older, I find it more interesting to train for something besides looks/physique. No offense intended to anyone here, but it seems that a lot of guys that train purely for physique wind up being awfully self-absorbed. They're worse than women, always looking in mirrors as they walk by, or checking how their gunz look in their sleeves, always posturing, etc. Not everyone obviously, but a lot of the guys seem to take themselves and their "look" way to seriously. Personally, I'm finding it more enjoyable to train for "performance" for lack of a better word (e.g., training movements, trying to get stronger, train for highland games/strongman, etc.). It's just more interesting. I still want to look good and all that, but I find the training aspect enjoyable. I don't freak if I don't have a six pack and I don't walk around like I'm carrying basketballs under my arms. LoL
MsBeverlyHills
New member
well.. womens bodybuiliding is pretty much dead in favor of figure & fitness. Mens needs a big name to bring it back to its old popularity & the whole Craig Titus thing didnt help 
al420
New member
Maverick said:listen juicer, how do you have time to make this slandering post ? dont you have to check your blood presuure or inject yourself in the ass ?
I am at a very lean 170lbs, I stay that way because I am going to compete in MMA. I have already competed in Boxing and Grappling events.
I am pretty damn strong for my weight and I am at single digit bodyfat.......
so your comments are pretty stupid, I have no intentions of becoming A PL or BB.... I am an athlete, I played Basketball at a high level, I play hockey, I wrestle, I box and I workout... not too mention I have a 28 inch vert and I can run pretty damn fast.
what do you do other then inject drugs in your ass and push iron ? can you run up a flight of stairs without being out of breath ? or are you too busy shaving your back hair and buying rogaine because of the shit you inject in your body !!!
what a joke......
anyway, back to my thread
some interesting points guys, a bit off topic but interesting !!!
I really was just talking about the looks of today's bodybuilders and the old timers.
I prefer the look of the old timer's , they look really nice.... todays generation of BB's look like freaks
Well little guy take a look at the top level 170 MMA fighters. DO you think they are clean? Hughes? St. Pierre? I mean really.... Also - you seem to be one of a million kids who thinks he will be a MMA fighter. Where do you train your stand up? I train in Dallas @ Saeksons. How about your grappling or wrestling? Machado here - 5+ years and I weight 210. I have read your posts and your an instigator - sure sign of anything but a trained fighter.....now go find Goose or Iceman you tool.
After posting on page one, I have not even come back to read the rest of the responsed. I can assume that since it is now 4 pages long it is just everybody jumping on the AAP bandwagon and going " you right " , " good bro AAP u know ur stuff" and other pleasantries like that.
If Ronnie Coleman trained purely for strength and nothing else, he would smoke everyone out there.
If Ronnie Coleman trained purely for strength and nothing else, he would smoke everyone out there.
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The Shadow
Guest
Tweakle said:
Exactly.
If natty was profitable - every show WOULD be nattty - talk to the athletes - they would be MORE THAN WILLING to drop the drugs
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The Shadow
Guest
BiggT said:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6436213&postcount=50
BT - love ya dude.....but numbers are numbers.....
I was curious about the bencg vid clip - it was actually 495 for 6
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The Shadow
Guest
Madcow2 said:
In general - very true.
In the case of Coleman, Im not sure it is applicable as a deadlift is a deadlift etc. He does the sport(specific lifts) already and, based upon his average lifts, would total 2200 with NO specific dynamic training.
BiggT
New member
Shadow, yes numbers are what they are. I'd probably take feds into account too. Also, competition. Coleman isn't competing in over 40 master's shows, he is competing with the best of the best in Bodybuilding, so he should be compared to the best of the best in powerlifting. Also, to get guys who would even use a fraction of the drugs and ancillaries he does year-round you'd have to look at the WPO probably, and although I have my feelings on WPO lifting, I don't want to start World War 4, so I will keep them to myself, lol....I don't think Coleman would necessarily clean up at WPO Worlds, plus he'd have to string together those PRs in one day....is it possible he would? Sure it is, but I still don't think it is a no-brainer, and I still think it is only fair to compare him to the WPO guys, or at least lifters like Bolton and Magnusson, or Brian Siders.....not your average Master's lifter with a full-time job outside of training and no sponsorships who may or may not use drugs, and if he does only has 1/100000th of the budget and access Ronnie does.
Either way, I am by no means a Ronnie basher, and I am impressed with his lifts, I just think he is what he is, the best BB in the world because thats where 100% of his attention goes, and I am not so sure he'd dominate PL without actually seeing him try......and given his fleet of luxury vehicles and his monthly income from BB, I think he'd be a fool to take a stab at PL.
Either way, I am by no means a Ronnie basher, and I am impressed with his lifts, I just think he is what he is, the best BB in the world because thats where 100% of his attention goes, and I am not so sure he'd dominate PL without actually seeing him try......and given his fleet of luxury vehicles and his monthly income from BB, I think he'd be a fool to take a stab at PL.
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The Shadow
Guest
BiggT said:
ok...lol
...nice dodge on the fact that Ronnie shouldnt be allowed to compete in a proper age class.....
..all the other things mentioned - full time job, gear etc - none of it matters where numbers are concerned. I addressed the gear usage b4 - 70% of his money goes to things that would not help in pling - hgh igf1 etc.
One other thing - about stringing along those numbers together - those ARE his day in, day out numbers...not the result of a training ramp - not the result of strength specific training.
Yes or no.
Do you think that Coleman would break the totals I posted in an earlier post in that weight category??
Either way you answer - Im finished with the thread...not out of anger or frustration...but bc its getting nowhere
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The Shadow
Guest
BiggT said:
You are a good man.....
....despite what Cynical says about you
FFQuads
New member
One thing people need to remember. Ronnie was a Powerlifter way before he was ever a BB. He was the man back then. He could bring it back if that was what he wanted to do. (I think) My friend was a very high National leveled Powerlifter and there are lots of pictures at meets with ronnie in the picture smiling with those huge guns up. Pretty cool that he had the look even back then.
i dont wanna get rammed, but ronnie looks like shit, a 40 in waist is hardly bbing. size is one thing, but so is looking good. i like arnie (who doesnt) franco, casey viator (was this shit in his time), zane, robbie robinson and boyer coe. some 80's guys like platz and mentzer.
the weight gain is getting to out of hand, is it supposed to, im not one to judge, but i wouldnt wanna look like the Hulk (maybe for a day, itd be fun), but i also wanna dont wanna have a heart attack when im 60...
i think its all political anyway, most sports are, i think dexter jackson and dennis james could beat ronnie, but thats a total opinion
the weight gain is getting to out of hand, is it supposed to, im not one to judge, but i wouldnt wanna look like the Hulk (maybe for a day, itd be fun), but i also wanna dont wanna have a heart attack when im 60...
i think its all political anyway, most sports are, i think dexter jackson and dennis james could beat ronnie, but thats a total opinion
Protobuilder
New member
Apparently this debate is going on elsewheres as well. LoL Hope Fred doesn't mind:
Fred said:
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The Shadow
Guest
...everyone forgets he is in the Master's age class.
LOL
He "already" has the American records in the 308 pound class without evening training for them
LOL
He "already" has the American records in the 308 pound class without evening training for them
BiggT
New member
Proto, that was on another board? lol, ever since those training clips of Ronnie surfaced on the net, this has been raging all over the place....it gets downright UGLY some places.....I think everyone here stated their opinions and differences thereof pretty respectfully though.
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The Shadow
Guest
agreed.
Protobuilder
New member
I could care less how ronnie would do in powerlifting, oly-lifting, strongman, or cake baking. i don't give two shits what he does w/ his life. LoL
I do think that he’s genetically gifted and so probably could excel in strength sports PERIOD had he wanted to. Who knows? Maybe in a few years he’ll give up the BB’ing, drop some weight, and go into grip contests or something. LoL
I do think that he’s genetically gifted and so probably could excel in strength sports PERIOD had he wanted to. Who knows? Maybe in a few years he’ll give up the BB’ing, drop some weight, and go into grip contests or something. LoL
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The Shadow
Guest
lol
..that says a lot
..that says a lot
Illuminati
New member
wow. make a few statements, and this thread took off.
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