Insulin has no efffect on protein synthesis PWO? prove it

[cobracock1979]

The studies are totally relevant. They clearly show my point which I've stated atleast 10 times that when adequate proteins are present , insulin spike w/CHO pwo does nothing (atleast nothing in terms of protein synthesis)

I didn't say anything about you being dumb. You made that statement probably because you partly believe it. If you are smart enough to interpret studies , then why not post one which show insulin spike PWO actually has some affect in protein synthesis??

You have yet to do so

I dont have such a study - I have stated that. Hence the reason for the existance of this thread.

GJohnson - at no point have you demonstrated a comparison of high and low insulin levels on protein synthesis. Thats a fact. You have posted threads about glycogen synthesis (several), you have shown amino acids are effective at increasing slin, you have shown that more protein is synthesised in the presence of ingested protein, insulin and cho, than with just cho and insulin (duh).

You have not shown that low levels of insulin are just as effective as an insulin spike in the presence of protein and CHO.

To do this you simply need to provide a study which used a valid method to determine net protein synthesis (not hormonal markers), in 2 scenarios

1. High insulin, protein and CHO V's 2. Low insulin, protein and CHO.

In fact, if the second scenario was as effective without the presence of CHO, that would really validate everything you have said.

 

[gjohnson5]

Well I'm gonna stop here because it's going from a scientific argument to alot of mudslinging at no part of my own
Secondly you are not listening to anything I've said. I've made the points time and time again that

1. Adequate proteins are the main need in PWO
2. Insulin spike does nil because physiological insulin regulation will limit any possible anabolic effects cause by insulin
3. glycogen replenishment can be done with low gi carbs, amino acids or proteins. A large does of empty refined carbohydrates re not needed
4. If your pre workout meals include starches such as brown rice , oats and potatoes, Alan Argorn said that this would refill glycogen DURING your workout. Having said that then there is no need for empty calorie sugars PWO
5. Associating insulin injections with endogenous insulin secretion is not a valid argument. The pancrease does not secrete humalog in 10IU dosages....

I didn't say anything about you being dumb or not able to interpret studies
All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that spiking insulin PWO helps protein synthesis


You problem at this point is due to the lack of knowledge of insulin itself. Current science really doesn't know much about this hormone or its affect on other areas such as IGF-1, IGF-2 MGF, testosterone, cortisol or igf binding proteins

IMHO since the above is clearly true , then there is basis for spiking proteins PWO
Until some real data comes out , I think it's clear the answer at this time is NO to the above

 

[cobracock1979]

Well I'm gonna stop here because it's going from a scientific argument to alot of mudslinging at no part of my own
Secondly you are not listening to anything I've said. I've made the points time and time again that

1. Adequate proteins are the main need in PWO Debatable - depends on how effective an insulin spike is, which we have not established
2. Insulin spike does nil because physiological insulin regulation will limit any possible anabolic effects cause by insulin You have been unable to prove this

3. glycogen replenishment can be done with low gi carbs, amino acids or proteins. A large does of empty refined carbohydrates re not needed Agreed

4. If your pre workout meals include starches such as brown rice , oats and potatoes, Alan Argorn said that this would refill glycogen DURING your workout. Having said that then there is no need for empty calorie sugars PWO Agreed - if insulin spike can be proven to be useless
5. Associating insulin injections with endogenous insulin secretion is not a valid argument. The pancrease does not secrete humalog in 10IU dosages.... OK I'll take your word on it

I didn't say anything about you being dumb or not able to interpret studies Then why do you insist a sudy showing the effect of carbohydrate and glycogen synthesis (without the ingestion of any proteins), serves to prove that ingesting protein in the presence of an insulin spike are of no use PWO? Also the following is a quote from you "Yes you do. I don't need to reread the thread. It's YOU who need to reread your responses and edit like pronto before I show your inability to grasp concepts or inability to accept other ideas"


All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that spiking insulin PWO helps protein synthesis


You problem at this point is due to the lack of knowledge of insulin itself. Current science really doesn't know much about this hormone or its affect on other areas such as IGF-1, IGF-2 MGF, testosterone, cortisol or igf binding proteins One of the studies you posted showed high levels of insuline to increase production or IGF-1 and hinder cortisol with anabolic results

IMHO since the above is clearly true , then there is basis for spiking proteins PWO
Until some real data comes out , I think it's clear the answer at this time is NO to the above

We shall see


Anyway, OK.

What mudslinging are you referring to - this is a debate and IMO it has remained respectful. By you incinuating I'm mudslinging, you are in fact the one slinging-the-mud-by-calling-me-a-mudslinger...so back at ya...

And again, because I do not agree with you, you say I am not listening to anything you have said. Whats that all about? If your studies validated your theories I would freely admit it.

If you wish to stop here then fine. You have posted some interesting articles and I have learned some new stuff, so thats OK.

In the end - you gave it a good shot but have been unable to do what you said you could - definitavely prove that an insulin spike PWO is no more effective than low levels of insulin. You can leave it there.

On the flipside, Iv yet to see definative proof of the opposite, so lets see what happens.

Anyone else?

 

[NPC-OHIO]

We shall see


Anyway, OK.

What mudslinging are you referring to - this is a debate and IMO it has remained respectful. By you incinuating I'm mudslinging, you are in fact the one slinging-the-mud-by-calling-me-a-mudslinger...so back at ya...

And again, because I do not agree with you, you say I am not listening to anything you have said. Whats that all about? If your studies validated your theories I would freely admit it.

If you wish to stop here then fine. You have posted some interesting articles and I have learned some new stuff, so thats OK.

In the end - you gave it a good shot but have been unable to do what you said you could - definitavely prove that an insulin spike PWO is no more effective than low levels of insulin. You can leave it there.

On the flipside, Iv yet to see definative proof of the opposite, so lets see what happens.

Anyone else?

Bro, you are wasting your time arguing with this dude who doesn't even train. Why? When someone asks you your diet, would you immidiately give a diet on a non-training day? Hell no, because 5-6 days of the week it's on......It's crazy. It's not going to make that much of a difference, I promise you. Spend this time working on your training plan and you'll be better off....if the rest of your diet is in tact, pre and pose will make .00001% of the gains you make over the next year.

 

[timtim]

does anyone here feel a whey shake alone would be enough for pwo? im curious.

 

[gjohnson5]

does anyone here feel a whey shake alone would be enough for pwo? im curious.

If the person has nothing to eat 3 hours before the workout then obviously now
If the person had ample starches and slower protein pre workout , then yes some whey that included bcaa should be enough.

Also the size of the meal preworkout and the size of the shake postworkout would need to be defined

 

[cobracock1979]

from some of johnsons studies, it appears thay whey+bcaa+glutamin would work ok, and create enough insulin to stop catalaysis.

Whey + carbs (ie oats) pre woukout should also work, raising slin throughout and well after workout

 

[desmond]

I'm probably going to ditch my brief flirtation with WMS, and consume:

pre workout either: traditional oats, milk, whey, cocoa, splenda, cin; or kangaroo and butternut squash/sweet potato
post workout: quick oats, milk whey, cocoa, splenda; or whey, and white potato. oats, cocoa, milk, splenda and cin is delicious though and a treat - better tasting that WMS!

White potato - rich in potassium, high insulin and glycimic index, no fructose, seems like a winner.

 

[OneBreath]

I'm probably going to ditch my brief flirtation with WMS, and consume:

pre workout either: traditional oats, milk, whey, cocoa, splenda, cin; or kangaroo and butternut squash/sweet potato
post workout: quick oats, milk whey, cocoa, splenda; or whey, and white potato. oats, cocoa, milk, splenda and cin is delicious though and a treat - better tasting that WMS!

White potato - rich in potassium, high insulin and glycimic index, no fructose, seems like a winner.

that's pretty hardcore.

 

[timtim]

If the person has nothing to eat 3 hours before the workout then obviously now
If the person had ample starches and slower protein pre workout , then yes some whey that included bcaa should be enough.

Also the size of the meal preworkout and the size of the shake postworkout would need to be defined

what about a protein/fat meal an hour and a half pre-workout? i didnt respond well to pre-workout carbs as i have tried that for various 4 and 5 week cycles. i am currently having 8 ounces ground turkey, 5 fish oil caps, and 2 teaspoon olive oil an hour and a half pre-workout.

post workout i am finishing up a cycle of various whole foods and no carbs. i noticed very little difference with/without carbs and liquid/whole food protein with efas. i have actually stayed at 198 to 200 since my cycle had ended 2 months ago. my bf is up to 13 at most and all in my lower back, handles. i am clean bulking though.

i really just want to get to 180 and ripped. i no longer like being so heavy/big, im only 5'5" and i look ridiculous in nice clothes.

with my pre-workout diet and goal (to lose the bber look and look more athletic), you think the 50 grams of just whey would be good?