Insulin has no efffect on protein synthesis PWO? prove it

[cobracock1979]

I posted a similar thread but its kinda gone in a good, but different direction.

Some people on EF are saying that a large insulin spike PWO will have no positive effect on protein synthesis.

Although no one has properly shown this yet, some studies have been posted which indicate the above could be a possibility.

Myself and others I know bas our whole bodybuilding regime around the idea that an insulin spike PWO is a huge aid to protein synthesis - some big changes would need to be made if this can be disproven.

Who agrees with this/ dissagrees? If so please post relevant studies evidence - I just want this thread to be about proving/ disproving this one point.
Thx in advance

 

[Chrisco915]

Post Workout Nutrition Research Studies:
While the conerstone of post-workout nutrition, traditionally has been a high carb drink immediately after a workout, many bodybuilders now advocate protein added also. A study (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53. Epub 2004 Nov 23) showed increased protein synthesis from amino acid plus carbs over the carb only. Another study (J Appl Physiol. 2004 Feb;96(2):674-8. Epub 2003 Oct 31) also found net positive body protein balance, was better with amino acids than carbs post workout. A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
There is some conflicting results, on the factor of protein added to carbs, on glycogen synthesis and recovery. I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group. In other words, adding protein and aminos to a post workout drink, just may be a expensive form of glucose(once it’s converted in the body). Therefore, the amount of carbs to cause a adequate insulin spike, is the main factor in glycogen synthesis and recovery. I should also add that, glycogen recovery is of little importance to bodybuilders. Our main focus, is post workout nutrition’s effect on protein synthesis and anabolic hormone production.
Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.
A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
What should I eat for my post-workout meal?
You should have carbohydrates and protein as soon as possible post-workout, preferably in a liquid form. These days, many bodybuilders are now advocating low glycemic carbs after workout. These bodybuilders believe the massive high glycemic carbs post workout, leads long term to increased insulin tolerance(decreased insulin sensitivity). Maintaining insulin sensitivity long term, is crucial because it leads to more muscle gains, fat loss, and reduced risk for diabetes. Many bodybuilders have reported no reduced gains, resulting from a switch to low glycemic carbs postworkout.

 

[Chrisco915]

I know....I know....boring cut and paste.......but how else would I paraphrase so much info?

 

[Chrisco915]

Protein
In addition to replenishing the glycogen fuel burned during the workout, rebuilding the
muscle tissue that was torn down during the workout is also a crucial component to
muscle recovery.
Protein and carbohydrates work hand in hand post workout; both glycogen and protein
synthesis proceed faster when carbohydrates and protein are consumed together. In
addition to blunting cortisol and stopping gluconeogenesis, the carb induced insulin
response will help shuttle amino acids to the muscles. An influx of amino acid will
create a positive nitrogen balance and thus an anabolic environment for building and
retaining muscle.

Similar to carbs, the quicker the protein can be deliver to the muscles cells, the sooner the
recovery and repair process can begin. Whole food sources of protein should be avoided
immediately post workout because it takes too long for the body to break down these
high protein foods. Ideally one should incorporate a fast acting protein source such as
whey protein isolate or hydrolyzed whey into their PWO shake. Like whole foods,
slower digesting protein powders such as casein, egg, and soy would not be ideal post
workout.​

In addition to utilizing cross-flow microfiltered whey protein isolate, Core-PWO contains

additional BCAAs and glutamine. BCAAs (leucine, isoleucine, valine) are quickly
absorbed into circulation and immediately available to be used rebuild muscle proteins.
Leucine itself has been shown to have a greater stimulatory effect on protein synthesis
than any other amino acid. Adding BCAAs, in addition to whey isolate, only further​

increases the rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis post workout.

 

[cobracock1979]

Thannks good stuff.

The benefits of a large insulin spike shown in the first study, appear here to be and increase in IGF-1 production and a curb in cortisol production - therefore this goes in favour of large insulin spiikes PWO being more anabolic than low levels of insulin?


I think Im gonna try this -

Pre workout - Whey + oatmeal
Post workout - Whey + Oatmeal + 25g Waxy Maize + BCAA + Glutamine.

Adding in the low GI carb may help to maintain long term insulin sensativity. Also the extra wholefood carbs pre-workout are a bonus to me as I struggle to eat a lotta cals. BCAA have been shows to increase skeletal protein synthesis.

Im adding the WM for to replenish glycogen fast - I know for sure WM works for me in terms of reglycogenation - I have done Keto diets so I know what it feels like to be depleted. I realise it creates no insulin spike.

Any comments?

 

[cobracock1979]

Post Workout Nutrition Research Studies:
While the conerstone of post-workout nutrition, traditionally has been a high carb drink immediately after a workout, many bodybuilders now advocate protein added also. A study (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53. Epub 2004 Nov 23) showed increased protein synthesis from amino acid plus carbs over the carb only. Another study (J Appl Physiol. 2004 Feb;96(2):674-8. Epub 2003 Oct 31) also found net positive body protein balance, was better with amino acids than carbs post workout. A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
There is some conflicting results, on the factor of protein added to carbs, on glycogen synthesis and recovery. I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group. In other words, adding protein and aminos to a post workout drink, just may be a expensive form of glucose(once it’s converted in the body). Therefore, the amount of carbs to cause a adequate insulin spike, is the main factor in glycogen synthesis and recovery. I should also add that, glycogen recovery is of little importance to bodybuilders. Our main focus, is post workout nutrition’s effect on protein synthesis and anabolic hormone production.
Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.
A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
What should I eat for my post-workout meal?
You should have carbohydrates and protein as soon as possible post-workout, preferably in a liquid form. These days, many bodybuilders are now advocating low glycemic carbs after workout. These bodybuilders believe the massive high glycemic carbs post workout, leads long term to increased insulin tolerance(decreased insulin sensitivity). Maintaining insulin sensitivity long term, is crucial because it leads to more muscle gains, fat loss, and reduced risk for diabetes. Many bodybuilders have reported no reduced gains, resulting from a switch to low glycemic carbs postworkout.

>>>

 

[gjohnson5]

I posted a similar thread but its kinda gone in a good, but different direction.

Some people on EF are saying that a large insulin spike PWO will have no positive effect on protein synthesis.

Although no one has properly shown this yet, some studies have been posted which indicate the above could be a possibility.

Myself and others I know bas our whole bodybuilding regime around the idea that an insulin spike PWO is a huge aid to protein synthesis - some big changes would need to be made if this can be disproven.

Who agrees with this/ dissagrees? If so please post relevant studies evidence - I just want this thread to be about proving/ disproving this one point.
Thx in advance

Still cannot accept the fact that there is no evidence that insulin spikes do anything for anabolism PWO. LOOK , it's a long standing myth and nothing more.

1....

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

2. Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

The studies reviewed here indicate that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic CHO greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic CHO only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion-induced hyperaminoacidaemia, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. If so, such post-exercise supplements would be of considerable benefit not only to athletes but also to anyone who has lost muscle function through disease—for example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Future studies should evaluate their long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance.

SO there's three MORE studies which back my claim that when adequate proteins re present , the need for excessive CHO is not....

 

[Chrisco915]

Does it really even matter?

Remember Bull Durham.......if you are think you're making gains because you are wearing a woman's garter, taking in a PWO shake, shaving your pits against the grain, taking cheerios and stuffing them in your nose.....then you are. And you should know that.

Reference Material:
Crash Davis: If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you ARE! And you should know that!
[long pause]
Crash Davis: Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.

 

[cobracock1979]

Still cannot accept the fact that there is no evidence that insulin spikes do anything for anabolism PWO. LOOK , it's a long standing myth and nothing more.

1....

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

2. Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

The studies reviewed here indicate that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic CHO greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic CHO only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion-induced hyperaminoacidaemia, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. If so, such post-exercise supplements would be of considerable benefit not only to athletes but also to anyone who has lost muscle function through disease—for example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Future studies should evaluate their long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance.

SO there's three MORE studies which back my claim that when adequate proteins re present , the need for excessive CHO is not....

First 2 studies are talking about muscle reglycogenation. The third only shows that combining amino's with CHO increases the insulin response, compared with CHO by itself. We have established that BCCA' and amino's are effective in raising insulin levels, and yes - if we can establish that no additional protein syntheis occurs in an insulin rich environment, then your claim that CHO is not needed when adequet proteins are present will be validated.

Look bro, your the one who claimed to have definative proof that an insulin spike PWO doen not promote any additional protein synthesis. Stop posting irrelevent studies about glycogen synthesis and claiming they prove your point. Stop assuming everyone here is too dumb to interpret these studies.

The level of carbohydrate induced insulin should be the only variable here - insulin spike VS low levels of insulin, in combination with protein PWO. Is the latter more effective for protein synthesis, or not?

 

[gjohnson5]

First 2 studies are talking about muscle reglycogenation. The third only shows that combining amino's with CHO increases the insulin response, compared with CHO by itself. We have established that BCCA' and amino's are effective in raising insulin levels, and yes - if we can establish that no additional protein syntheis occurs in an insulin rich environment, then your claim that CHO is not needed when adequet proteins are present will be validated.

Look bro, your the one who claimed to have definitive proof that an insulin spike PWO doen not promote any additional protein synthesis. Stop posting irrelevent studies about glycogen synthesis and claiming they prove your point. Stop assuming everyone here is too dumb to interpret these studies.

The studies are totally relevant. They clearly show my point which I've stated atleast 10 times that when adequate proteins are present , insulin spike w/CHO pwo does nothing (atleast nothing in terms of protein synthesis)

I didn't say anything about you being dumb. You made that statement probably because you partly believe it. If you are smart enough to interpret studies , then why not post one which show insulin spike PWO actually has some affect in protein synthesis??

You have yet to do so