I'm not going to let it Lie macro

[madmitch]

Ok macro some more studies that support my belief that estrogen is more important for muscle growth than you might think.

Scientists have known for some time that androgens bind with what are called androgen receptors, proteins in the cells that turn on or turn off genes in the cell's nucleus. Research on these receptors over the last several years has shown that they interact with other proteins in a complex cascade of growth control.

One significant research project in this area has been led by Chawnshang Chang, Ph.D. at the University of Rochester. Chang has identified a protein called ARA-70 that increases the activity of the androgen receptor. Interestingly, ARA-70 greatly enhances the activity of the androgen receptor in the presence of estrogen - not the male hormone, testosterone.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it macro.

 

[anabolic24/7]

Some estrogen is vital for growth, but not the excessive amounts that will be present due to the introduction of AS into the body.
Higher estrogen levels will do more harm than good unless you are interested only in weight gain. Those 10lb tits and the fat you gain because of it will make the scale go up. IMO.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I took about five minutes to look at changs research.

Here is what it means to me.

1. ESTROGEN PLAYS AN EXTENSIVE ROLE IN MAINTAINENCE AND PROLIFERATION OF PROSTATE TUMORS.

2. ESTROGEN IS A CO-REGULATOR OF TRANSCRIPTION OF THE AR- what does this mean? from the standpoint of ANABOLISM..... nothing, at least from the data given.


Estrogen, in small amounts, is important for health, but there is little/no evidence that more than a minute amount is necessary for anabolism/health. I have never advocated absolute elimination of estrogen, however I feel that many of the problems that men and women face stem from the presence of excess estrogen... OBESITY, GYNO, PROSTATE CANCER, HAIR LOSS-in men(perhaps as a result of ARA-70), etc....

But interesting reading
peace

 

[madmitch]

Hi macro

Well I'm going to let you in on what a pro bodybuilder told me. They didn't give the game away completely but I a kind of worked it out for myself.

When I told them that I did not make very good gains on Test they took one look at me and said "you could already have high natural levels of Testosterone" and that I should go and get my hormone levels checked.

Now I always equated high natural levels of Test to larger muscles, greater recovery from training, etc you know the genetically gifted.

However what this pro was telling me was that basically androgens are not the be all and end all of muscle growth. It is far more complicated than that.

You can inject as much Test as you want, but if all the other hormonal factors are not right it will just be a waste of time and money.

This is what these so called steroid guru's do. They take blood samples from their clients and get their hormone levels tested. From the tests they can work out what steroids cycles will work best for them etc.

This is why so many guys on this board are just blindly injecting themselves not knowing what is really happening inside their bodys. When the roids stop working they decide they must be fake, when really their own hormone levels are screwed up from their last cycle.

Just a thought.

 

[Julez]

Interesting.....

You know that there's a fair amount of Estrogen (3 ring) in beer and pot?

 

[madmitch]

In a book "Steroids the laymans guide 2", I read that basically you find that sometimes the guy with the high natural levels of Test has a low number of receptor sites and the guy who has low natural Test levels has a large number of receptors.

It explained that the person with high natural levels of Test will gain well on steroids at first, but the effectiveness of roids drops of quickly. Where'as the person with Low natural Test Levels only has to smell steroids to grow like a weed.

How is this possible?

Well I thought about it for a while, and tried to reason why your body would have low numbers of receptors as a result of high natural levels of Test.

OK for our American buddies.

Let a Baseball ground represent your body, a catcher your androgen receptor, and the ball a Testosterone molecule.

Now if you where to throw just one ball into the ground, one catcher is not going to have much chance of catching it. However if you had 20 catchers then there would be much greater odds of them catching the ball.

This would represent someone with Low Natural Testosterone. in order for their body to respond to Testosterone they need greater numbers of Receptors to have any chance of picking up a Testosterone molecule.

Now say you throw 100 balls into the baseball ground. One catcher is going to have a pretty easy time catching even just one of the balls.

This would represent a person with high natural levels of Testosterone. They only need a small number of receptors to catch a Testosterone molecule and thus benifit from it signal.

Hmmm time for you guy's to do some thinking.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Hmmmm...

interesting, unfortunately the wild guesses made by the author of that book have no scientific basis. In fact, those guesses are contradicted by science...high test=high# of receptors(estrogen deficient mice (er alpha) given aromatase inhibitors and test still had a high number of receptors)...upregulation is the watchword for today.


PLEASE, in the future, when you wish to make a comment regarding the role of estrogen in growth, or chemical for that matter, NEVER say a pro bodybuilder told me so. Additionally, referencing "steroids for the laymen" is inadvisable

peace

 

[e2]

LOL!!!!! Ol Macro playing with the young ones again???

Nice to see you're still having fun!

 

[Slopain]

LOL!!!!! Ol Macro playing with the young ones again???

Nice to see you're still having fun!

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

LMAO...I agree with Macro,telling us that a pro bodybuilder told you something regarding mollecular biology is absolutely hilarious.There might be one or two pro bodybuilders on the planet that have an inkling of understanding of these processes,and that's pushing it...As Macro stated,he's never advocated total elimination of estrogen.Some estrogen is necessary for everyday vitality.But very few educated men want aromitase running rampant in their systems.Cosmetically,you're pushing the envelope for disaster eventually.

 

[bigrand]

Hey MAC,
I thought that androgens supported prostate tumor proliferation? Aint that why androgen suppression is key in treating prostatic carcinoma?

 

[madmitch]

macro

What if I told you that this pro was friends with the late Dan Duchaine. They are also still competing in the top 10 of the Olympia.

Doctors, Doctors, and more Doctors are responsible for the physiques you see at the Olympia.

Yes alot of them guy's haven't got a f**king clue about Biology, but you can be assured the Sports Doctors they visit do.

How do you think they get their roids legally.

F**k what these Lab rats say about estrogen, talking from experience I made my best gains in muscle mass and strength when I started noticing estrogen linked side effects.

Now try and explain that!!!!!

What do you think of the ratio........20:1

Testosterone - Estrodiol

 

[cockdezl]

MAD..MACRO and I have posted opinions on this subject before. I understand what you are saying, since I posted information supporting estrogen's effect on anabolism (mostly because some stated that estrogen was not anabolic...which the evidence does not support). BUT even though I understand that estrogen is more important to anabolic processes than most would like to admit, I still understand that estrogen is not something that we can deal with (as of yet). You can't deny that estrogen increases fat distribution to the lower extremities, or that it increases hepatic toxicity, or that it causes gyno, or that it increases prostate growth, etc. These are things that male bodybuilders do not have the luxury to experiment with in order to determine the correct levels. Not one person here wants to get huge at the expense of big titties.

While the evidence does support your position (thanks to the studies in the agricultural field), the reality is that we can't use it (yet).

 

[Big Johnson]

INTERESTING THREAD. TOO BAD COMMON SENSE SEEMS TO BE LACKING WITH THE ESTROGEN PROPONENTS. TAKE SOME ESTROGEN NEXT TIME INSTEAD OF TEST AND SEE HOW BIG AND STRONG YOU GET. DUMMY

 

[*Ranger*]

Ummmmmmmm.......Yummy!!! Gotta luv a good debate....Where ya been E2....Skiing with cows again....heh heh heh

Ranger

 

[Jeff_rys]

Ranger, back in EF town ?

this is off topic, but still...
since the conversation is out of my league,
BUMP

 

[Slopain]

macro

What if I told you that this pro was friends with the late Dan Duchaine. They are also still competing in the top 10 of the Olympia.

Doctors, Doctors, and more Doctors are responsible for the physiques you see at the Olympia.

Yes alot of them guy's haven't got a f**king clue about Biology, but you can be assured the Sports Doctors they visit do.

How do you think they get their roids legally.

F**k what these Lab rats say about estrogen, talking from experience I made my best gains in muscle mass and strength when I started noticing estrogen linked side effects.

Now try and explain that!!!!!

What do you think of the ratio........20:1

Testosterone - Estrodiol

LOL They don't get there roids legally man they might get some GH and other legally but for the most part the majority of their AS's are through illegal means. If you really talked to a pro or aspiring pro you will hear them parrot of phrases with buzzwords - ask them to explain it and they can't.

 

[madmitch]

Big Johnson

You are totally missing the point. I'm not saying that estrogen by itself is anabolic.

What I am saying is that you can take all steroids you want, but if you do not have a combined increase in estrogen levels your cycle will give you minimal gains.

If only I could find the figures for hormone levels during puberty which is when you experience the most significant increase in muscle mass, without the use of exogenous steroids. You will find that both Testosterone and estrogen levels are high.

Why do you think women gain so well when they first start taking steroids? I'll bet any money that it is because they are altering their hormone ratios to more closley match that of a pubescent boy's.

This is why women don't need to take as much steroids as a man in the beginning, because they already have higher estrogen levels to begin with.

Where'as a man who injects Testosterone has to rely on his aromatase enzymes to increase his estrogen levels.

 

[madmitch]

Yes that is why natural gyno occurs in teenagers.

Again you are missing the point, I'm not saying to take estrogen instead of Testosterone DUMMY. But there are steroids that contain Estrodiol.

These have been proven to cause greater growth and pumps than straight Testosterone.

The ratio most of these steroids come in is 20:1

i.e. 20 times more Testosterone than Estrodiol.

The ratio for an adult male is 50:1

Testosterone to Estrogen.

Why would some Drugs company spend millions of dollars researching these drugs? And how did they come up with the 20:1 ratio?

Obviously it was the best combination that would create maximum benifit with minimal side effects.

The Estrodiol is there to counteract the bad side effects of two much Testosterone.

i.e.

Cholesterol problems,
Heart problems,
Diabetes,
Hair loss,
Body Hair growth,
acne,
Osteoporosis,
Prostate problems etc.

This post is dedicated to all the guy's who have been told that the reason they don't grow well on steroids is because of their genetics.

It maybe that you just don't have as many aromatase enzymes as some of the guy's who grow well on steroids. Also if you have high levels of DHT in your body this can block the aromatase enzyme.

 

[Anabolicum Mister]

So are you saying that steroids that don't convert to estrogen don't work?

BTW, you won't convince Macro by saying "a doctor said..." either.

 

[Slopain]

Why is this exchange still going on?

 

[cockdezl]

MAD, I hope you have read that estrogen also reduces exercise induced muscle trauma, which may possibly reduce muscular gains.

 

[Horny]

Madmitch, stop encouraging people to ruin their bodies by putting more estrogen into them. Its just plain irresposnible of you to run your mouth like you are. Do you think people care how muh more muscle they are going ot get if they have tities and big fat woman asses on top of it all?

 

[Kookyguy]

Ok a new kid went and did a days worth of reading , That's great!
I have worked out with a few pros and I come to these boards for advice and info , Why?
For the same reason I go to the doctor when I get a cold and not to the guy that gave me the fucking cold LOL.
No offence Madmitch but I honestly doubt you have the scientific knowledge that Macro and some of the others on this board have.
But do keep reading

 

[vinnie]

check this out.
i dont know if this means anything but i do have naturally high test levels. i was having hair loss problems before i started juicing and doc said it was due to high test. now im on 1 gram of test and 400mg of eq. i havent even had a slight sign of gyno. some people get it with only 500mg of test. now is this related to the persons natural test level?

 

[Horny]

check this out.
i dont know if this means anything but i do have naturally high test levels. i was having hair loss problems before i started juicing and doc said it was due to high test. now im on 1 gram of test and 400mg of eq. i havent even had a slight sign of gyno. some people get it with only 500mg of test. now is this related to the persons natural test level?

no it is related to how much aromatase enzymes a man has, how sensitive the estrogen receptors in his breast tissue are to estrogen (do women in the man's family have big breasts?), and how much reductase enzymes the man has. You should check the area around the top of your upper leg when you sit down. If you are using that much test and eq I bet there is some considerable fat build up there even if you aren't getting gyno. I bet you can grab a big roll. Am I wrong?

 

[Horny]

vinnie, was I right or wrong about your legs?

 

[vinnie]

no way bro!
im fucking lean. with 1 gram im not gaining the weight i should be. and no signs of gyno either. of course i do have nolv just in case but.......i was just curious.

 

[Horny]

good to hear.

 

[DIXIEBOY]

MAD..MACRO and I have posted opinions on this subject before. I understand what you are saying, since I posted information supporting estrogen's effect on anabolism (mostly because some stated that estrogen was not anabolic...which the evidence does not support). BUT even though I understand that estrogen is more important to anabolic processes than most would like to admit, I still understand that estrogen is not something that we can deal with (as of yet). You can't deny that estrogen increases fat distribution to the lower extremities, or that it increases hepatic toxicity, or that it causes gyno, or that it increases prostate growth, etc. These are things that male bodybuilders do not have the luxury to experiment with in order to determine the correct levels. Not one person here wants to get huge at the expense of big titties.

While the evidence does support your position (thanks to the studies in the agricultural field), the reality is that we can't use it (yet).

Very good input bro, for what it's worth. Macro, Slopain, & Huck forgot more about gear then what I know..hehe

 

[yiyangzhi]

LOL, madmitch, u still can't get over the "anabolic" estrogen thing? I think its been about 4 or 5 threads that u posted about it sofar, plus one by IG.

 

[The Iron Game]

LOL, madmitch, u still can't get over the "anabolic" estrogen thing? I think its been about 4 or 5 threads that u posted about it sofar, plus one by IG.

Yiyanggzhi, when are you ever going to learn that estrogen plays a role in muscle growth? What part of that can you not seem to understand. We have had this conversation on every estrogen post.

Once again I can see Big Johnson coming to bring his foul mouth in to play in what everyone else has kept a mature attitude.

Once again, follow with me: Estrogen Plays A Role In Muscle Growth.

And Yiyanggzhi, no one, not Macro, Not Cockdezl, Not Huck, Not E2, Not Slopain will tell you any different.

What is in discussion is how significant this estrogen plays a role, most of which claim very little.

Read between the lines.