Hypogonadism After One Cypionate Cycle???

[lean_now]

The following is a request for help and guidance as well as a brief history including all blood work results showing a dramatic reduction in natural testosterone production after only experimenting with a single Testosterone Cypionate cycle. A natural T level so low as to have my doctor diagnose me as having Hypogonadism. Will I ever have a normal Pre-Cycle T-Range again? Have I damaged my endocrine system or receptors? What should I do now?

DOB: 10/59 Height: 5’8”

My general health is excellent except for some slight elevations regarding certain items on my cardiac lipid profiles. I currently take no medications for anything and only take natural substances such as Red Yeast Rice, Policosanol and Niacin for my lipid profile although I limit the Red Yeast.

November 2002
42 Years Old - 155 lbs – 22% body fat
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, not working out but generally fit & slim.
Total Test: 666/714
Free Test: 17.58

March 2003
Stopped natural supplements, went back to gym and lifting
Blood work prior to cycle:
Total Test: 598 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 14.59 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 43 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 52 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 495 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 171 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: 1.3 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

March 25, 2003
Started a Cyp cycle of 100mg per week, after 5 weeks no significant gain in weight or body fat composition. Increased appetite, increased strength, sexual appetite slightly increased(always rather high so again hard to tell)

April 29, 2003
Week 6 - increased my dose to 200 mg per week(100mg 2x/week) and lengthen cycle from 10 weeks to 12

May 20, 2003
Week 9 - high energy level, good strength, good sex drive, huge appetite. My weight and body fat really wasn’t changing much though and I was monitoring it everyday so I was some still concerned
Added Tomoxifen through the end of the 12 week cycle

June 16, 2003
Week 12 – end of Cyp cycle, I had gained about 4 lbs and lost about 2-3 % body fat. 160 lbs - 19.5% body fat My body “looked” better and I was definitely getting comments about “looking” good. I had expected more from the cycle though and was somewhat disappointed especially since I was working out hard and following a significantly modified and improved diet plus I was eating a large amount of food. I was curious what a second cycle would do for me and if it was worth it.
I didn’t do any blood work during the 12 week cycle

July 11, 2003
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG

August 11 & 22, 2003
Could “feel” things were not right, strength, energy and sex drive were low, “state of mind” was not quite right either but work and personal pressures were enormous so it did not overly concern me. I was losing weight.
Total Test 357, lower than ever and Free Test 12.8, my doctor noticed the low testosterone levels and prescribed Androgel for me and wanted to see me get blood work in another month. My DHT level was very high.
I started using the Androgel
Total Test: 357 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 12.8 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 38 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 148.2 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 536 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 3.3 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 178 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of <2.6

September, 2003
Joined a Martial Arts program training 3 or 4 times per week, not lifting much due to work schedule. I continued to lose weight and body fat and was looking much thinner.

September 23, 2003
Androlgel for 1 month, feel better but still not quite “right”. I had blood work drawn within 2 hours of my Androgel application: my Testoterone level was elevated to a pretty good range from the Androgel but my other levels are all out of optimal ranges.
Total Test: 705 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 15.6 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 31 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 88.4 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 171 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: <1 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: not done but I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

October 18, 2003
Broke a rib and pulled a hamstring in Martial Arts. Slow recovery unable to work out or do any exercise at all for over 2 months.

December 2003
Stopped taking Androgel and started a few natural substances to see if I could get back to a baseline of where I started before my cycle.

January 5, 2004
Started back in my Martial Arts, still not lifting at all.

January 30, 2004
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol and DHT have fallen to good ranges for the first time since I have been monitoring them, DHEA and IGF-1 are starting to rise, LH is low and concerns me.
Total Test: 392 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 7.3 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 38.5 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 381 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 1.8 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 201 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .9 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

February 2004
I haven’t been lifting at and I feel the low Testosterone levels. My strength, energy and sex drive are all low.
During the last 6 months I continued to lose weight and body fat so I am currently 142 Lbs - 15% body fat.
I am particularly concerned at my low LH value.
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue

May 2004
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol, DHEA and DHT good IGF-1 lower than ever, LH is low and concerns me

Total Test: 229 very low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 7.9 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 35 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 454 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 2.6 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 149 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6


Please Help Me... THANKS

 

[Jenetic]

What kind of response are you getting from your doctor?

I would get a second, third and however many opinions neccesary, from and experienced doctor, for a clear explanation and understanding on your situation.

Best wishes brother.

 

[wellbilt]

i would get a second or even third opinion are you going to the endocinologist or a regular doctor if your not seing an endo i would recommend you do they specialize in this i believe good luck

 

[lean_now]

Thanks for the reply Jenetic...

I went to a clinic for guidance through my T-Cycle and I am seeing them this week for consultation since I just got my latest lab work that shows my natural supplements have done NOTHING for my T levels but pretty much they just want me to do a new T-Cycle with HGH this time... my regular GP who diagnosed me is truly a very nice and helpful guy who has told me that he wished he knew more about my particular situation but it is not his area of expertise so he highly recommended the following clinic and Doctor: http://www.natural-hrt.com/home.html

I figured it was time for me to start doing some posts here and on a few other boards and see what some of you have to say and then I am going to try the above clinic and I will call for consultation to at least two more clinics.

By the way, for any of you that are interested I keep logs of all the products I take and the blood results they produced... pretty interesting actually

James

 

[lean_now]

Wellbilt,

Your suggestion is very sound and I am going to seek out an endocinologist as well... but my question to all of you is , Have any of you seen this type of response after only one rather low dose cycle? I read boards and website info for months before I did my cycle and never really saw anything that would give me an indication that this may happen. Have I missed something obvious that I should or shouldn't have done or is my body just revolting?

James

 

[wellbilt]

everyone responds differentley i dont think ehat you are experiencing is common but i think it is definetley possible to damage you endocre system with one small cycle hopefully this is not the problem and maybe you are still recovering i am not a doctor so this is all jsyt my opinions i hope you find out whats going on so it can be corrected good luck wish i coulod help more

 

[lean_now]

I must admit the entire thing has me pretty down as well as nervous but I will continue to post on this thread as I get more feedback from the doctors and clinics

 

[wellbilt]

i know this may sound counter productive with low test levels but have you tried going back to the gym and doing heavy dead lifts squats and presses these are supoosed to help test levels i could imagine how you feel about this and i hope you get wel there are many helpfull people on this board so keep reasearching and hang in there

 

[evolutionoftherevolution]

A couple of things...

I've read that DHEA itself is suppressive of natural test. Unfortunately I can't find that source, but I'd look into that if I were you.

BUT using Androgel when you are trying to build up your own natural T Levels is the WORST thing you can do as Androgel is suppressive!

Here's where I completely agree with Nelson Montana and some of the other short cycle proponents...12 weeks is WAY too long for a steroid cycle. WAY too long regardless of the dosage. From my research, I'm fully convinced that it's duration and not necessarily dosage that causes the most suppression.

So, to start, I'd drop the DHEA, drop the Androgel. I'd look into things like Clomid and HCG under your doctor's supervision.

 

[lean_now]

I work out VERY intensely 3 to 4 times a week in Martial arts so finding the time for lifting has been tough BUT I am going to make the time and start next week again... The ironic thing is that with the intensity that I work out I can't help but think that if my natural T levels were higher I would have many more pounds of lean muscle and my gains would be easier than they are right now...
I stopped taking the Androgel in December of 2003 for exactly the reasons you stated and I currently take no Test or even Pro-hormones...
Before the cycle I also had rather good DHEA levels and only started taking DHEA in Feb after my first low blood level... but I am open for trying your suggestion

 

[lean_now]

Evolution,

I must admit that from what I have read so far I too think my cycle was too long... hard lesson to learn and one I am currently paying for... I have always questioned the effectiveness of my cleanup cycle and the blood test results in particular to LH level... with that in mind when I speak with the doctors and clinics I am curious if their approach will be the HCG, clomid avenue...

 

[Triple J]

bro you never did proper PCT. instead you went on androgel which is basically like doing another cycle, as far as its suppressive effects. remember even a low dose cycle can shut you down. the length of the initial cycle is not that bad, you just did not follow up with the proper PCT. instead you further suppressed your system with the androgel. also your initial choice of cycle was not too good, and you got very meager gains (so it was certainly a waste) but that is another issue.

you need a proper PCT and then reevaluate. there is plenty of info on this board on a proper PCT. generally speaking you are looking at 6-8 weeks with an initial period of HCG followed by clomid/nolvadex. what I would probably do is 2-3 weeks of HCG/nolva and then followed with the clomid and nolva. if you are prone to estrogen sides you may want to use something stronger (like arimidex or femara) with the HCG. if you opt to not use the HCG, 6-8 weeks of clomid/nolva would probably be sufficient to see improvement.

more experimentally, instead of clomid/nolva, aromatase suppressors such as adex, femara, or examastane may be good choices for our age group, since they will likely do more to raise FREE T levels. (tendency for higher levels of estrogen as men age, which decreases free T) But they can be too strong, with undesirable sides, if not dosed just right.

 

[lean_now]

triple_j

OK it took me long to respond but between the holiday and my need to read more information about HPTA and PCT before I responded... well I am sure you get the idea...

Thanks very much for your response and interest in my problem... your post was extremely informative and helpful and I read the sticky on PCT, which I think I should also make a post to??? I hope you don't mind but I have some additional questions... now for my questions and some more info:

First let me state that I did not do this cycle on my own but I went to a HRT clinic, which now after reading your reply and a few other quality replies, I realize my guidance from them was poor and hence my expectations were also extremely unrealistic. So far a number of common threads seem to be emerging from the responses, 1) my training regimen was weak and I was basically not training long enough or hard enough to obtain optimum results 2) the dosage level I used was also less than optimum for the results I expected or for that matter any significant gains 3) My PCT was inappropriate and ineffective and the intermittent use of the Androgel was a significant mistake

Clean-up Cycle Information
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG
July 12th - 21st HCG 1000USP
July 15th - July 24th Clomid 51mg

Questions:

1) I have been off all steroids including Androgel for 6 months and yet my Testosterone levels seem to continue falling and this is despite my working out and my rather intense use of numerous natural substances to increase Testosterone and lower Estradiol. Am I correct in assuming that without the proper PCT my levels will not stabilize and my HPTA will not rebound even after 6 months or longer?

2) I have been taking numerous supplements and following the LEF Male Hormone Modulation Therapy:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130.shtml
Super MiraForte http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00615.html
DHEA 25 mg http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00335.html
Indole-3-Carbinol/ Resveratrol http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00654.html
Natural Prostate Formula http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00648.html
Tribex-500 https://www.biotestedge.com/html/tbx.html
Redkat http://red-kat.com/
Zinc 50mg/day

Yet my Testosterone levels are pathetic, my other levels are pretty good at least according to my reading so maybe the products have helped me with those but am I wasting money? Should I just stop them and do a proper PCT? Will they benefit me during my PCT?

3) I have been taking Secretagogue-One to hopefully increase my rather weak IGF-1 levels but my recent blood work showed dismal results so I will not continue. Should I be concerning myself with IGF-1 at this point? Any thoughts on this?

4) I am still unsure as to what constitutes a proper PCT for me at this point. You reference information regarding HCG, Nolvadex and Clomid but I have recently read quite a bit regarding PCT and I must admit I am still plenty confused... I have read about the negative feedback on LH, and HCG with relationship to testicular atrophy which frankly I don't have at this point so I am unsure if I should or shouldn't use HCG. I also read about the side effects of Clomid and the dosage effectiveness of Nolvadex so I am confused as to which is right for me. Additionally I read about the other ancillary PCT substances and then finally I have PCT cycle time suggestions ranging from 6 weeks to 3 months... so needless to say I still need some clarity and more specifics on all of this before I proceed

5) Are the "optimum" hormone levels I posted earlier correct in your view? Are they achievable?

6) I am crazy to think that I will be able to do another Testosterone cycle again, possibly with HGH, after I straighten this mess out?

I know this has been another long post but I thank you in advance for your help with this.

Sincerely,
James

 

[trenfan2]

I agree with triple j, it seems that in essence you did 2 cycles back to back with no pct. Further than that, you state that you also were working out "intensely" but didn't have time for lifting weights? I think if your main concern is the 5lbs you lost since you stopped lifting you might do well to re-examine your diet and lifting philosphy. You must subject your muscles to weight bearing excercise in order to maintain them, let alone make any gains... How has your diet changed since you ended your cycle? In regards to your blood levels I would consider soliciting the help of DrJMW on this board.
just my .02.

 

[Briweve1]

I think you need to goto an expert like Swale, just looking at what you posted there are some no no's in there. I don't beleive HCG should ever be taken in PCT but should be used in the cycle to keep the boys full, HCG is more powerful the people think. And can Depress recoverey of your HPTA. Also you probably waited to long to start PCT it should have been sooner after your last shot. So by time you started Clomid and got tested you were right back on the Andro. Go over to the Scuplted by Iron board, and talk to Swale. He is a Doc and runs cutting edge stuff for people wanting HRT. And fixing people that are having problems.

Regards

triple_j

OK it took me long to respond but between the holiday and my need to read more information about HPTA and PCT before I responded... well I am sure you get the idea...

Thanks very much for your response and interest in my problem... your post was extremely informative and helpful and I read the sticky on PCT, which I think I should also make a post to??? I hope you don't mind but I have some additional questions... now for my questions and some more info:

First let me state that I did not do this cycle on my own but I went to a HRT clinic, which now after reading your reply and a few other quality replies, I realize my guidance from them was poor and hence my expectations were also extremely unrealistic. So far a number of common threads seem to be emerging from the responses, 1) my training regimen was weak and I was basically not training long enough or hard enough to obtain optimum results 2) the dosage level I used was also less than optimum for the results I expected or for that matter any significant gains 3) My PCT was inappropriate and ineffective and the intermittent use of the Androgel was a significant mistake

Clean-up Cycle Information
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG
July 12th - 21st HCG 1000USP
July 15th - July 24th Clomid 51mg

Questions:

1) I have been off all steroids including Androgel for 6 months and yet my Testosterone levels seem to continue falling and this is despite my working out and my rather intense use of numerous natural substances to increase Testosterone and lower Estradiol. Am I correct in assuming that without the proper PCT my levels will not stabilize and my HPTA will not rebound even after 6 months or longer?

2) I have been taking numerous supplements and following the LEF Male Hormone Modulation Therapy:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130.shtml
Super MiraForte http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00615.html
DHEA 25 mg http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00335.html
Indole-3-Carbinol/ Resveratrol http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00654.html
Natural Prostate Formula http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00648.html
Tribex-500 https://www.biotestedge.com/html/tbx.html
Redkat http://red-kat.com/
Zinc 50mg/day

Yet my Testosterone levels are pathetic, my other levels are pretty good at least according to my reading so maybe the products have helped me with those but am I wasting money? Should I just stop them and do a proper PCT? Will they benefit me during my PCT?

3) I have been taking Secretagogue-One to hopefully increase my rather weak IGF-1 levels but my recent blood work showed dismal results so I will not continue. Should I be concerning myself with IGF-1 at this point? Any thoughts on this?

4) I am still unsure as to what constitutes a proper PCT for me at this point. You reference information regarding HCG, Nolvadex and Clomid but I have recently read quite a bit regarding PCT and I must admit I am still plenty confused... I have read about the negative feedback on LH, and HCG with relationship to testicular atrophy which frankly I don't have at this point so I am unsure if I should or shouldn't use HCG. I also read about the side effects of Clomid and the dosage effectiveness of Nolvadex so I am confused as to which is right for me. Additionally I read about the other ancillary PCT substances and then finally I have PCT cycle time suggestions ranging from 6 weeks to 3 months... so needless to say I still need some clarity and more specifics on all of this before I proceed

5) Are the "optimum" hormone levels I posted earlier correct in your view? Are they achievable?

6) I am crazy to think that I will be able to do another Testosterone cycle again, possibly with HGH, after I straighten this mess out?

I know this has been another long post but I thank you in advance for your help with this.

Sincerely,
James

 

[muscleup]

Most docs would consider your levels normal for your age

 

[Jenetic]

No reports for Progesterone, Prolactin, FSH and TSH?

 

[Nathan]

Your LH is going back up which should translate into more testosterone production in the long run I would expect. Also, your free test isn't lower and that's what matters. It seems to be moving very slowly upwards though. Anyways, you are 42 years old and I bet that is the majority of your problem. Test production drops with age.

 

[DrJMW]

DOB: 10/59 Height: 5’8”

My general health is excellent except for some slight elevations regarding certain items on my cardiac lipid profiles. I currently take no medications for anything and only take natural substances such as Red Yeast Rice, Policosanol and Niacin for my lipid profile although I limit the Red Yeast.

IF THE SUPPS AREN'T NORMALIZING YOUR LIPID PROFILE, THEN DROP THEM. GIVEN YOUR BF%, A FAT LOSS PROGRAM WILL PROBABLY NORMALIZE YOUR LIPIDS.

November 2002
42 Years Old - 155 lbs – 22% body fat

BF% IS TOO HIGH TO BEGIN USING AAS. AT THIS LEVEL OF BF, YOU WILL AROMATIZE TESTOS LIKE CRAZY, EVEN WITH AROMASIN. I ALWAYS ADVISE MY OVERWIGHT CLIENTS TO LOSE BF FIRST BEFORE BEGINNING ANY AAS/BULKING CYCLE.

Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, not working out but generally fit & slim.
Total Test: 666/714
Free Test: 17.58

GREAT NATURAL LEVELS. AGAIN, YOU SHOULD AHVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THESE LEVELS WITH PROPER DIET AND WEIGHT TRAINING. GET THE BF DOWN TO 10-12%, RETEST AND SEE WHERE YOU ARE AT.

March 2003
Stopped natural supplements, went back to gym and lifting
Blood work prior to cycle:
Total Test: 598 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 14.59 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 43 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 52 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 495 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 171 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: 1.3 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

I KNEW YOUR ESTRADIOL WOULD BE HIGH--FROM YOUR BF%. ALSO, REALLY INCOMPLETE BASELINE TESTING--NO FSH, NO LH, NO PROLACTIN, NO CORTISOL, NO LIPID PROFILE, NO CBC, AND NO COMPREHENSIVE METABOLIC PANEL.

March 25, 2003
Started a Cyp cycle of 100mg per week, after 5 weeks no significant gain in weight or body fat composition. Increased appetite, increased strength, sexual appetite slightly increased(always rather high so again hard to tell)

NOT SURPRISING. YOU NEEDED AN ANTIESTROGEN BIG TIME. YOUR ESTRADIOL LEVELS ARE PROBABLY THROUGH THE ROOF. THIS COULD ALSO ELEVATE PROLACTIN.

April 29, 2003
Week 6 - increased my dose to 200 mg per week(100mg 2x/week) and lengthen cycle from 10 weeks to 12

A LONGER CYCLE AND NO ANTI-ESTROGEN.

May 20, 2003
Week 9 - high energy level, good strength, good sex drive, huge appetite. My weight and body fat really wasn’t changing much though and I was monitoring it everyday so I was some still concerned
Added Tomoxifen through the end of the 12 week cycle

WHAT IN THE WORLD WERE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH? FAT LOSS? STRENGTH/SIZE AT 22%BF? THIS LOOKS LIKE "PUTZING" AROUND. THEN ADDING NOLVADEX AT THE END OF THE CYCLE--WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? NOW YOU HAVE HIGH TESTOS LEVELS AND HIGH FREE ESTRADIOL LEVELS CIRCULATING. BOTH ARE VERY SUPPRESSIVE TO THE TESTES AND TO THE PITUITARY.

June 16, 2003
Week 12 – end of Cyp cycle, I had gained about 4 lbs and lost about 2-3 % body fat. 160 lbs - 19.5% body fat My body “looked” better and I was definitely getting comments about “looking” good. I had expected more from the cycle though and was somewhat disappointed especially since I was working out hard and following a significantly modified and improved diet plus I was eating a large amount of food. I was curious what a second cycle would do for me and if it was worth it.
I didn’t do any blood work during the 12 week cycle

SINCE YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY PARTICULAR GOAL IN MIND (GAINING LBM AND LOSING BF IS NOT A REALISTIC GOAL), YOUR RESULTS WERE PROBABLY FINE. NO BLOODWORK-SHAME. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO VERIFY ALL THE PROBLEMS YOU CREATED FOR YOURSELF.

July 11, 2003
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG

INADEQUATE RECOVERY. YOU WAITED TOO LONG TO BEGIN USING HCG. MY RECOVERY PROGRAM BEGINS THE WEEK AFTER LAST AAS INJECTION. IT IS IMPERATIVE TO BEGIN HCG/NOLVADEX ASAP TO QUICKLY GET THE TESTES BACK TO FULL SIZE. THE NOLVADEX WOULD STIMULATE THE PITUITARY TO BEGIN SECRETING LH/FSH AGAIN AND IT WOULD BLOCK INCREASING ESTRADIOL LEVELS. YOU CREATED A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR YOURSELF BY ALLOWING YOUR ESTRADIOL TO SKYROCKET DURING YOUR CYCLE. YOU WANT ESTRADIOL LEVELS TO BE VERY LOW DURING THE CYCLE. ONLY THE LIVER WILL BE ABLE TOR EMOVE THE FREE ESTRADIOL AND THAT TAKES TIME. AND IT STRESSES THE LIVER. SO, TO RECAP, POOR AAS CYCLE, LACK OF ANTI-ESTROGEN (AROMASIN OR ARIMIDEX) USE DURING CYCLE, AND INADEQUATE RECOVERY CYCLE.

August 11 & 22, 2003
Could “feel” things were not right, strength, energy and sex drive were low, “state of mind” was not quite right either but work and personal pressures were enormous so it did not overly concern me. I was losing weight.
Total Test 357, lower than ever and Free Test 12.8, my doctor noticed the low testosterone levels and prescribed Androgel for me and wanted to see me get blood work in another month. My DHT level was very high.
I started using the Androgel
Total Test: 357 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 12.8 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 38 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 148.2 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 536 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 3.3 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 178 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of <2.6

BASED ON TESTOS AND LH LEVELS, YOU ARE SUPPRESSED. THE ANDROGEL IS A FOOLISH ADDITION, FOR IT FURTHER SUPPRESSES THE HPTA.

September, 2003
Joined a Martial Arts program training 3 or 4 times per week, not lifting much due to work schedule. I continued to lose weight and body fat and was looking much thinner.

September 23, 2003
Androlgel for 1 month, feel better but still not quite “right”. I had blood work drawn within 2 hours of my Androgel application: my Testoterone level was elevated to a pretty good range from the Androgel but my other levels are all out of optimal ranges.
Total Test: 705 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 15.6 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 31 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 88.4 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 171 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: <1 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: not done but I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

YOU ARE STILL SUPPRESSED, THE ANDROGEL IS WHAT IS SHOWING UP AS TOTAL/FREE TESTOS, NOT YOUR NATURAL OUTPUT.

October 18, 2003
Broke a rib and pulled a hamstring in Martial Arts. Slow recovery unable to work out or do any exercise at all for over 2 months.

December 2003
Stopped taking Androgel and started a few natural substances to see if I could get back to a baseline of where I started before my cycle.

January 5, 2004
Started back in my Martial Arts, still not lifting at all.

January 30, 2004
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol and DHT have fallen to good ranges for the first time since I have been monitoring them, DHEA and IGF-1 are starting to rise, LH is low and concerns me.
Total Test: 392 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 7.3 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 38.5 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 381 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 1.8 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 201 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .9 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

STILL SUPPRESSED AND BACK WHERE YOU STARTED AFTER AAS CYCLE.

February 2004
I haven’t been lifting at and I feel the low Testosterone levels. My strength, energy and sex drive are all low.
During the last 6 months I continued to lose weight and body fat so I am currently 142 Lbs - 15% body fat.
I am particularly concerned at my low LH value.
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue

May 2004
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol, DHEA and DHT good IGF-1 lower than ever, LH is low and concerns me

Total Test: 229 very low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
Free Test: 7.9 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
Estradiol: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
DHT: 35 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
DHEA: 454 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
LH: 2.6 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
IGF-1: 149 low and I would like a regular level of >350
PSA: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, YOU MADE EVERY MISTAKE POSSIBLE. HOPEFULLY, YOU HAVEN'T PERMANENTLY DAMAGED YOUR PITUITARY AND TESTES. AN MRI WILL RULE OUT PITUITARY TUMORS. YOU NEED TO DO A PROPER RECOVERY CYCLE (OR TWO).

BEGIN IMMEDIATELY:
WEEKS ONE THRU THREE: 1,000U OF HCG, IM, MONDAY, WEDNESDAY, FRIDAY; 20MG NOLVADEX DAILY; 50MG CLOMID DAILY.
WEEKS FOUR THRU SIX: 20MG NOLVADEX DAILY; 50MG CLOMID DAILY.
WEEKS SEVEN, EIGHT: CLEAN. NEED BLOOD TESTING FOR LIPID PROFILE, TESTOS LEVELS, LH, FSH, ESTRADIOL AND PROLACTIN. REPEAT CYCLE IF NOT RECOVERED.

YOU NEED TO EAT A HIGH PROTEIN, MODERATE CLEAN CARB, LOW CLEAN FAT DIET (LOOKING TO REDUCE CALORIES FOR FAT LOSS). PROPER TRAINING--WEIGHTS AND MARTIAL ARTS ARE FINE TOGETHER. TAKE A MULTIVITAMIN AND A CHELATED MULTIMINERAL DAILY. CUT OUT THE SUPPS FOR NOW..YOU NEED TO GET BACK TO BASICS.

 

[DrJMW]

Bump--important learning example of problems with AAS.

 

[Jenetic]

Bump--important learning example of problems with AAS.

Excellent point.

Also, I noticed in your previous thread that you didn't mention testing for TSH. Is there any specific reason for this?

 

[lean_now]

Hello All,

Well needless to say it has been quite sometime since I have been on the forum and posted any info regarding my rather dismal problem... frankly I got so discouraged that I pretty much gave up all together. Well I am going to try again to get this under control and I will be posting and reading as much as possible. I am getting a rather significant set of blood tests done this Monday the 12th and once I receive them I will post the results and try and start fresh and solicit advice.

Thanks in advance to everyone I look forward to all your guidance...

 

[Big_Joe]

Hello All,

Well needless to say it has been quite sometime since I have been on the forum and posted any info regarding my rather dismal problem... frankly I got so discouraged that I pretty much gave up all together. Well I am going to try again to get this under control and I will be posting and reading as much as possible. I am getting a rather significant set of blood tests done this Monday the 12th and once I receive them I will post the results and try and start fresh and solicit advice.

Thanks in advance to everyone I look forward to all your guidance...

I wouldn't worry about it to much. I'm nine years older then you and have a similar problem from chemo. I just don't worry about it and do an amp of sus a week. It's just an expense of life. I feel great and I look great what's the problem?

 

[lean_now]

Hi Big Joe,

The problem is that when I started the post I felt like crap and now I feel even worse... and not to be insulting but if HRT was a simple as doing a fixed amount of sus or any single product then frankly these boards would be pretty empty.

I have read quite a bit and your regimine seems to be the exception but I will "tweak" my balances this time around and get myself feeling better
Thanks

 

[buckjoey]

Did you ever follow Drjmw's recovery advice?

 

[Big_Joe]

Hi Big Joe,

The problem is that when I started the post I felt like crap and now I feel even worse... and not to be insulting but if HRT was a simple as doing a fixed amount of sus or any single product then frankly these boards would be pretty empty.

I have read quite a bit and your regimine seems to be the exception but I will "tweak" my balances this time around and get myself feeling better
Thanks

I know hrt should have more testing and tweaking of dosages but so what. I keep it in the high range, do blood work every so often and feel good.

I think that there is another problem that is really bothering you, You just got to except that time moves forward. You are getting older. You can't win against time. So just realize this is a new phase of your life and in forty more years you will be really old and gray, if your lucky.

Forty is the old age of youth, fifty is the youth of old age.

 

[anal itch]

BEGIN IMMEDIATELY:
WEEKS ONE THRU THREE: 1,000U OF HCG, IM, MONDAY, WEDNESDAY, FRIDAY; 20MG NOLVADEX DAILY; 50MG CLOMID DAILY.
WEEKS FOUR THRU SIX: 20MG NOLVADEX DAILY; 50MG CLOMID DAILY.
WEEKS SEVEN, EIGHT: CLEAN. NEED BLOOD TESTING FOR LIPID PROFILE, TESTOS LEVELS, LH, FSH, ESTRADIOL AND PROLACTIN. REPEAT CYCLE IF NOT RECOVERED.

Is this considered a good PCT for any AAS cycle or only a recommendation for his case? The nolva dosage seems low compared to what I've read in the PCT forum. Just curious.