How did Arnold and Lou train?

[hhajdo]

He came to US in '68 and improved his physique a lot in the seventies...

An example of his routine:

Mon, Wed, Fri

CHEST:
Bench press 5 x 6-10
Flat bench flyes 5 x 6-10
Incline bench press 6 x 6-10
Cable crossovers 6 x 10-12
Dips (body weight) 5 x failure
Dumbell pullovers 5 x 10-12.

BACK:
Wide-grip chins (to front) 6 x failure
T-bar rows 5 x 6-10
Seated pulley rows 6 x 6-10
One-arm dumbell rows 5 x 6-10
Straight-leg deadlifts 6 x 15

LEGS:
Squats 6 x 8-12
Leg press 6 x 8-12
Leg extensions 6 x 12-15
Leg curls 6 x 10-12
Barbell lunges 5 x 15

CALVES:
Standing calf raises 10 x 10
Seated calf raises 8 x 15
Oneplegged calf raises (holding dumbells) 6x12

FOREARMS:
Wrist curls (forearms on knees) 4 x 10
Reverse barbell curls 4 x 8
Wright roller machine Until Failure

ABS: ½ hour of a variety of nonspecific abdominal exercises, done virtually nonstop.


Tues, Thurs, Sat

BICEPS:
Barbell curls 6 x 6-10
Seated dumbell curls 6 x 6-10
Dumbell concentration curls 6 x 6-10

TRICEPS:
Close-grip bench presses 6 x 6-10
Pushdowns 6 x 6-10
French press (barbell) 6 x 6-10
One-arm triceps extensions (dumbell) 6 x 6-10

SHOULDERS:
Seated barbell presses 6 x 6-10
Lateral raises (standing) 6 x 6-10
Rear-delt lateral raises 5 x 6-10
Cable lateral raises 5 x 10-12

CALVES & FOREARMS: Same as Monday, Wednesday, Friday workout

ABS: Same as Monday, Wednesday, Friday workout

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

From the impression I get reading about Arnold and looking at pics, he looks like he gained most of his mass before he even came to the US. Once he got here it didnt look to me like he gained much more mass, just got more defined and had more muscle quality.

Exactly! Weider even commented on his soft appearance when he came to the USA. He had lots of muscle mass, but very little definition and this is what he had to correct to be successful in the toughest competitions.

Hell, he started working on bulking up with D-Bol at age 13. And people on this site say, you better wait until you're 25 before you start to juice. Do you think that Arnold would have been as successful as he was if he safely waited to start steroids at age 25? My ass! By the time he was 28, he won the best contest what....6 times. Then he retired and later on made one more comeback to win it again. Arnold's life would have been dramatically different if he didn't start lifting and juicing at such a young age. Now, at the age of 55, Arnold looks awesome and is much healthier than most men his age. He's been hitting it hard in the gym again for T3 (Terminator 3).

 

[Nelson Montana]

Actually Mike Menzter did not train in his Heavy Duty manner when he was competing. H.I.T was more of an attractive "intellectual" approach for Mike than one which is pragmatic. But intellectualism over pragmaticism pretty much defines Mike in his later paranoid/schizophrenic years. If Mikes later condition is a result of H.I.T the results speak for themselves. In fact, very few champs used H.I.T (some might say Dorian, but his torn bicep stopped that. He also used greater volume than MM recommends.) Casey was a freak with lots of previous thick muscle who responded well to HIT. He also took a ton of D-bol and wasn't quite as sharp as his contempararies.

The truth is, the guys from the 60's and 70's were volume guys -- because they loved it. Yes, they overtrained. But hey, no aerobics and they were ripped!

 

[icelandic]

Exactly why did Mentzer become slightly strange towards the late 80s and 90s. I know some people claimed he liked to use amphetamines prior to training, but he was brutally honest about his drug regimen and I'm not sure if he ever mentioned that. I wasn't even aware of his passing two years ago until a few days ago, what happened, did he suffer a heart attack? Its funny you mention Casey Viator, he was one of Arthur Jones' poster children for HIT (remember the so-called Colorado Experiment), kinda odd he never mentioned his star training subjects were chock full of roids, huh?

 

[Realgains]

Actually Mike Menzter did not train in his Heavy Duty manner when he was competing. H.I.T was more of an attractive "intellectual" approach for Mike than one which is pragmatic. But intellectualism over pragmaticism pretty much defines Mike in his later paranoid/schizophrenic years. If Mikes later condition is a result of H.I.T the results speak for themselves. In fact, very few champs used H.I.T (some might say Dorian, but his torn bicep stopped that. He also used greater volume than MM recommends.) Casey was a freak with lots of previous thick muscle who responded well to HIT. He also took a ton of D-bol and wasn't quite as sharp as his contempararies.

The truth is, the guys from the 60's and 70's were volume guys -- because they loved it. Yes, they overtrained. But hey, no aerobics and they were ripped!

Mentzer never trained HIT in his hay day!!....THATS A BUNCH OF CRAP! I actually trained with Mike after a seminar in 1980 and believe me he trained that way all the time....what a fucking laugh...Mentzer not practising what he preached!!

Yates still trained with HIT after his injuries but he just used more machines and trained non explosively.

Dorain Yates used 3-5 or 6 working sets to failure JUST LIKE MIKE!! Mentzer NEVER believed in one set to failure and made that VERY WELL KNOWN!


RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Uh oh. Looks like struck a nerve. And to think I recommended people ask you about short cycles and now you hate me.: )

Seriously, Mike adopted the HIT principles right around 1980, just before he retired. His body was built on volume training for the most part. It's funny. The most adament defenders are MM diciples. Hey, I don't believe in high volume training for non competing BB's either. But MM was more interested in the intellectual side because, quite frankly, he was an intelligent man. But he was also a loon. I'm talking a full blown clinically depressed psycho.

Yes, Dorian would use 6 sets, plus a couple of serious warm ups (even though certain assisting bodyparts were already warm from previous work.) That sounds like 8 sets to me. He'd also sometimes do 6 sets per exercise -- two exercise per bodypart. That's 12 sets and far beyond what Mentzer claims is the optimum.

And yes, MM has been known to say one set is all you need. He contradicted himself constantly (much like his mentor Ayn Rand).

Mike made some good points, but all in all HIT was an intellectual theory that didn't work for most people -- at least not as a consistant manner of traning long term.

Why do I get the feeling this is going to tun into another argument. Must be me.

 

[Nelson Montana]

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[Realgains]

First of all Mike Mentzer adopted HIT in 1976 and put out his first booklets on HIT in 1978, which I still have. In fact I still have original Mike Mentzer artciles from the old "Iron Man" from 1976 and 77 He was fairly big already that is true but he gained an additional 35 pounds after adopting HIT training.

Secondy Yates did not do 6 sets per exercise and two exercises per body part...thats WAY OFF. Yates typically did 3-6 sets per body part after warm ups, 3 for bi's and tri's and calves and up to 6 for back due to the fact that he was trying to hit the lats, and upper mid back etc....and of course warm up's were done but he never did them very hard as he believed in saving his efforts for the working sets.

Yates did more warm up work after his many injuries and also used more machines as he was paranoid of continued injury but they certainly couldn't be counted for work sets or muscle stimulating sets in any way.
Mentzer also did warm ups of course but guys like Arnold did 20 sets AFTER warm ups as do some pro's now.

Mike Mentzer never ever said that one set per body part was all one needed ...he said that one set per EXERCISE was usually but not always enough. He always recommended 3-6 working sets per body part throughout his life.

Look Nelson I do not believe in HIT training for anyone but the genetically blessed steroid user as it it too intense for most nervous systems....but high volume is worse for the average man. That said......if one put 100 average men on a high volume routine(Arnold style) and 100 on a Mentzer routine the guys on the Mentzer routine would do better on average thats for sure but they would need to tone down their intensity much of the time, but still do low volume, in order to see their best gains.

So I really am not a Mentzer disciple like you think because I do not believe he addressed the needs of the average man.... but I did admire the man in many ways and followed him throughout his career.

Some of the things you say about Mentzer, and Yates for that matter, are plain bullshit Nelson and not fair at all.
RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, I'm with you on a few things. You're right, both methods are too much for the mere mortal. Although higher volume can work if workloads are kept down. The entire premise of HIT is based on acheiving ultimate intensity which doesn't really exist. Actually Dorian found out what ultimate intensity is when he torn his tendon. But there are many ways of acheiving intensty.

You're right, I was a bit off with the date. It wasn't 79, more like 76 when he got into it. But he didn't develop it as I'm sure you know. It was Auther Jone's idea and Mike was intrigued by it, adopted it and turned into a marketing gimmick. But the guys who knew Mike said he was in the gym for an hour each session so what he was doing wasn't quite what he became so dogmatic about later in life.

35 pounds? D-bol.

I have a tape of a clinic he did where he proposed a single set per bodypart once every 2 weeks. Yeah, that'll work.

The problem I had with Mike was he used his intellect to intimidate, not elucidate. He put down others for "blindly following a training proticol" yet professed that anyone who didn't follow HIT was an idiot. His statements that "there is only one best way to do anything" was probably the stupidest thng I ever heard and it flew smack in the face of the objectivist ideology he so strongly espoused. The guy was nuts. Smart. Articlate. Eloquent. Knowledable. But nuts.

 

[Charvelle]

I have been training HIT style for 2 years now straight, not so much the way MM describes it, as 1 or 2 total body workouts (1 set for each muscle group) per week, but I train similar to how RealGains was stating it, i.e. if I do arms, I will do 3 exercises bi's, 3 exercises tri's (1 set each), for a total of 6 sets for arms. When I
will take vacation for a couple weeks, and don't see the gym much, I will go in every 3rd or 4th day, and do the 1 set for each
bodypart, that MM intended for HIT. I tried it and experimented
with it 2 years ago because of time restraints, and have praise
for it, not as thee only way to train, but as a good option for someone not looking to get on a stage, and who has a demanding personal life, and may be getting on into their 30's or
more.

Me, I've been training for going on 20 years, mid 30's, 6ft, 235,
guessing around 12% BF, so I am no rookie, and am well respected even by the hardcore guys, so I think my .02 on HIT is
a good one.