Good reasons for a once-a-week split

[SteelWeaver]

This is something that troubles and confuses me a lot. Everyone seems to be on a one-bodypart-per-week split. Why? Is it simply convenience? Or does one really gain best this way?

I did the weekly split for most of this year, and gained slightly. Then I changed gyms and moved onto a 3-day split working out 4 times a week. So I was hitting every muscle group every 4-5 days, and started doing drop sets and forced reps. I gained much better this way, but I don't know if that's because of the split, or the fact that I suddenly discovered what "intensity" really is. Or because I started eating even more. Probably all three.

Anyway, so 2 weeks ago I messed up one of my (rather integral to moving) back muscles on deadlifts, and am out for the count for 3 weeks or so. Did this happen because:

a) I was concentrating on what my powerlifter friend was doing upstairs, not on the damn bar

b) I was tired and didn't feel like training

c) I didn't warm up properly

d) I was overtrained from 12 weeks on the 3-day split and my body decided to take a break for itself

e) All of the above

I guess my questions are, simply: is a 3-day split 4 times a week too much, and could I have been overtrained without knowing it?

Why is the one-part-a-week split so common/popular, etc.

How do you know when that point is when you're fully recovered, but not entering detraining?

 

[new@gettinbig]

I train each bodypart 1 time a week...on a heavy week I am usually sore up to 3-4 days and cant even begin to think of training it again..you need proper rest inbetween..if you are hitting them hard they shouldnt be ready to train with in a few days...Try training heavy one week..light the next week..works great..I used to train several times a week...training each bodypart a few times a week...got NO results at all...called over training...and I wasnt training heavy enough and I was basically wasting my time in the gym..drop sets are great to do..I guess do whatever works best for you

 

[KBgrl]

i agree with New.... i think its an indivdual thing..... if u didnt do so well with working one body part once a week dont do it.... just do what gives u the best results i believe it takes ur muscles 7-10 to fully recover.... but ur superwoman steel !!

 

[Hannibal]

i believe it takes ur muscles 7-10 to fully recover.... but ur superwoman steel !!

I know I will catch hell for this. But respectfully submitted I have to disagree. Your body is capable of so much more than people give it credit for. In my personal opinion...and from the people that I have helped with training. Once a week is cheating yourself out of gains.

I personally have lifted 3 times a day...6 days a week...when I had never even heard of Creatine and had never used AAS. And I put on 30 lbs of lean muscle. Was I sore...hell yes at first.....but you body is an adaptive organism. And as long as you dont exceed your recovery ability (which is far greater than most imagine) then the sky is the limit.

I presently, depending on how close I am to a meet, train twice a day...every day...for the most part. And I because my General Physical Preparedness (ability to do work) is so HIGH...I am NEVER sore. And I continue to make gains in strength and size...whether I am ON or OFF. Sometimes the mind is the thing that is weak. It is the link that limits us.

"The body becomes its function"

 

[wilson6]

I did something like that many year's ago. 2x/d 6 days a week with a buddy of mine. We were so f***king overtraining and utterly burned out in a few months, our pics should have been in the dictionary next to overtraining.

For me, after many years of training, once a week, heavy every other week using undulated periodization has worked best. I am far stronger now than I ever have been in my life and I'm approaching my mid-40's. If I trained like I did when I was young, I'd either be in a mental institution, an assisted living facility with 90 year-olds or dead.

But, to each his own. You have to find what works for you, but I've had much success with each bodypart once per week, ditto with my clients, even the veteran lifters.

Personally, I think it has to do with the intensity that one lifts. I get the sense that some of you only think you are pushing max intensity, thus you're recovery time is less. Volume and intensity are different variables and everyone's training program is different.

What we describe here is subject to everyone's interpretation. I may describe my leg workout and someone may think it’s easy when they put themselves through it, but go through it with me and it's a different story.

W6

 

[BITCH]

My 2 cents, or for what it's worth. I made more gains when I spent more time away from the gym. As others have stated, everyone is different and perhaps it boils down to genetics.

From what I've discovered and agree with is that it takes a muscle 7-10 days to recover naturally. If it's torn down again before it's fully recovered, gains will be hampered.

I was so disgusted a few years ago, that I dropped back to 3 days a week and made amazing gains. Perhaps I only shocked the body. After over a decade of training I don't want to be in the gym more than 5 days a week anyway. I use a 2 day on, 1 day off split.

How was your form on the deads? Be careful. A screwed up back is painful as you may all to well know and takes a while to heal. Streatch as much as possible and avoid heavy back movements for a while until you are fully recovered. Not to rain on your parade, but I injured my lower back over a year ago and it took 6 frustrating months to heal. Talk about one pissed BITCH here.

 

[BITCH]

Yes, muscle growth is the best part; eating and resting.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks all. As I expected, there are different opinions on this. Up 'til now I haven't felt any of the classic symptoms of overtraining, but I started thinking after I hurt my back that maybe it wasn't coincidence. One thing that was true was that I was getting sick of spending 1.5 - 2 hours in the gym 4x per week, even though I was still making slow but steady gains.

If I could work out twice a day for 30 - 45 mins - great! But my job kind of gets in the way - how did you do 3 x, Hannibal?? And, more to the point, how many hours of sleep do you get a night? I can only get 6, weekdays - no choice about it - so I'm tired a lot.

I was reading in Natural Bodybuilding that the WNBF 2001 Ms Universe, Rosa Camilo, works on a 3-day-on, one-off, 3-way split. So, obviously some people CAN do it. But I don't think she has a full-time job and an hour-long commute to work.

W6 - if it gives you any comfort about the effectiveness of your explanations, I tried your calf workout, couldn't even finish it all, and had fire in my calves for a good 4-5 days! I was practically sobbing on the last drop set.

And THIS is why I'm now thinking of dropping back to one-a-week - since I've been reading posts here, I've been pushing myself harder than I ever thought possible. I'm thinking maybe if I drop back on frequency, I can up the intensity a few notches, since each part will get more focus. I just don't want to go back to sitting on the same weight for weeks and weeks at a time.

BITCH - usually I'd say my form is impeccable - I'm completely anal about it - I'm so bad, I ask my gym owner to observe every set of squats I do. However, he was upstairs with my powerlifter friend when I did these deads, and I was thinking about that in the back of my mind - my downfall! It's just a muscle, not cartilage or anything nasty, but darned sore! I know what you mean about lower back - I did mine in (L5) on a mountain with a heavy pack once - took FOREVER to heal, and hurts every time I DON'T train for a while - so now my upper AND lower back are hurting.

KB - "superwoman" - heh heh - thanks, girl - you know they don't call me Steel for nothing!

Anyone want to venture an answer on how you know when your muscles are fully recovered but not starting to detrain? Sure, they should be not sore anymore, but are there any other signs?

 

[wilson6]

One doesn't have to be natural to train each bodypart once per week. I often times feel that many inhibit their gains on a cycle by training too frequently and that usually leads to higher doses or a bigger crash when they come off.

W6

 

[MS]

My two thoughts/experiences are; 1)you shouldn't be using the same training split all the time (read up on periodization blah blah blah) and; 2) it takes ME 5-10 days to recover from a very intense training session.

This leads me to believe that training by a weekly calendar is ludicrous if your serious about making natural gains. I know a lot of folks like a weekly routine because it fits in with the rest of their lives, and most people prefer routine and predictable things in their lives. If you wanna shock your body into new hypertrophy (without AAS) then you need to literally shock it. Train at different times of the day. Train with and without pre or post workout meals. Train every other day (circuit style), train once every seven days per bodypart, train a body part when it's recovered fully, train heavy one session and light the next, use different exercises, sets, reps, rest periods, tempo, etc.....

It all sounds a bit complicated and unscientific (which it is) but in my personal experience the people that make the best 'natural' gains have worked on developing this type of more intuitive training instead of working to a recipe. Recipes are needed if you want to make your first batch of cookies as a kid, but if you want to become a true chef then you need to work on experimenting, experience and intuition. The only short cuts are genetics, surgery or AAS.


Oh yeah, the most important ingredient for strength or mass gains is rest. If you want to be the best natural bodybuilder you are capable of becoming, then you need to get more sleep and more rest in your day. If your job gets in the way of this then you will prolly never be a world class bodybuilder no matter how dedicated you are otherwise. You will probably not reach your natural potential under sleep and rest deprivation, and this may be a sitch where AAS can help. I am in a lifestyle where I have put my health (which includes rest) above financial gain. It's an incredibly tough choice for most westerners to make. But as always you need to keep the goals in mind. This may sound really negative (blame it on PMS), but if you're a natty vego bodybuilder who's overworked and under rested, then it may be impossible to get where you want to go without either AAS, a change of diet (or both), or a complete change of lifestyle......

 

[wilson6]

"but if you're a natty vego bodybuilder who's overworked and under rested, then it may be impossible to get where you want to go"

Stop typing MS, you're suffering from estrogen intoxication.

W6

 

[MS]

Hohohohoho and Happy New Year to you Wilson6

Estrogen intoxification NOT. I am old enough now that estrogen holds very little sway over me (well maybe just a smidgen). But you, of all people, have got to agree that SteelWeaver appears to be stacking the deck against herself on several levels?

 

[wilson6]

It's her choice.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks a lot, folks, that's ***REALLY*** helpful. Someday it might be nice if you could get off your smug little PhD-induced high horses and actually HELP somebody out. Sure, it's a free world and you can say what you like, but there's no call for cruelty.

MS - I'm NOT interested in AAS,
I'm NOT interested in surgery, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be vegetarian.
I'm NOT interested in shorcuts.

I've only being doing this seriously for a year - the year before that was pretty muddled and unfocussed. I've spent this year trying to learn as much as I possibly can about training, nutrition, rest, and whatever else I can about the human body.

Experimenting I can do, but experience only comes with trial and error over time, and intuition only comes with experience.

I joined this board in the hope that I could learn more, from people who've learnt through experience. Why go through a lengthy experimentation process if I can ask if someone else has had similar experiences, and then adapt accordingly? Everything I've learnt here has enhanced what I already knew enormously, and added new knowledge too, but I must say there's a lot of white noise to cut through for some kernels of truth. And to be frank, I didn't expect you two to be adding to the white noise.

I put up this thread in the hopes that somebody, through their learning or experience, or preferably both, would be able to give me some suggestions on which way to go. The reason I asked the questions is I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS. If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions, now, would I?

If I'm "stacking the deck against myself on several levels", I can tell you it's certainly NOT ON PURPOSE, it's because I don't know any freaking better! I'm still trying to learn - and that's why I'm asking all these questions. Maybe just because it's all so second-nature to you through years of experience and all your extra medical knowledge you just don't remember how difficult it can be trying to figure out which ways to do things when you don't know enough yet to make an educated decision.

Regarding training split, no, I don't use the same split all the time - I change it every 6-12 weeks - and periodisation IS something, ha, surprise, surprise, I do know something about, and have been practising for a year.

Regarding training frequency, and only training a muscle part when it's recovered, one of my very first posts, which I'm certain you don't recall, was a question about Fred Hatfield's training theories, which cover exactly that issue. Of course, the volume he prescribes is silly, but an adapted version of his ideas would have one doing alternately heavy and light workouts for each body part, with frequency peformed according to recovery time.

Only about one or two people responded to my query about the system, and the main comment was "volume is way to high". Fine, whatever, but where's the suggestion for how to modify it??? At the time, I didn't know how to adapt it like what I wrote above. Maybe if someone had helped out better then, I would have been on a completely different system by now.

And STILL nobody has any responses to how you actually KNOW when a muscle is fully recovered.

So, I wanted to know if I was overtraining, even though I didn't seem to have any symptoms of overtraining. Well, apparently, if I read your answers correctly, I was.

The REASON I wanted to know is that I want to cut my training sessions shorter so that I can get more sleep - since I KNOW I need more of that - thank you for pointing out the obvious.

I already have plans in place to move to England in a year, where I will be on a much more BB'ing-friendly schedule. Moving to another country takes a little planning, and costs money. In the meantime, working with the schedule and other "apparent" limitations I have, I would like to make the best gains I can. I sincerely doubt that I will become a world-class natural bodybuilder this year, and if it takes me an extra year in the long run, well, a year spent learning in adverse conditions is a year well spent, as far as I'm concerned. It'll make everything after it seem easier.

Thank you and a happy New Year to you.

Oh, and thanks for the diet advice, MS.

 

[Hannibal]

So, I wanted to know if I was overtraining, even though I didn't seem to have any symptoms of overtraining. Well, apparently, if I read your answers correctly, I was.

The REASON I wanted to know is that I want to cut my training sessions shorter so that I can get more sleep - since I KNOW I need more of that - thank you for pointing out the obvious.

Ok I added my 2 cents earlier. But I was pulling punches because this is a subject that I am very outspoken about. Why???? If YOU dont think you are overtrained...would you listen to anyone else. People that dont know you or your workout...tellin you that you are "overtrained" because of the volume of your workouts...thats ridiculous.

*asking Warlobo for permission to rant*

I honestly do not see how anyone that calls themself a bodybuilder can believe that it takes 7 days or MORE to fully recover. This not an attack against any of said people as I realize that I am in the minority. But I just cannot comprehend that. Can you actually be sore 168 hours after a workout. Easter Bloc research (Supertraining, Dr. Mel Siff) determined that muscles begin to atrophy after 72 hours. So why would you want to wait OVER twice that long before you trained the same muscle again. It seems that Western training philosophies coincide with a general laziness of the culture. Do as little as possible and still get results. If you dont feel like lifting take a day off. "Instinctive" training??!

Take Soviet lifters....and lets eliminate the drug factor as US lifters are "juiced to the gills" as well dont kid yourself...and while I'm at it Santa Claus does not exist. By US standards....the Soviets were "overtraining"...just by the shear volume of their lifting. Why is it that their "overtrained" athletes were kicking our "well rested" athletes a$$??! Because they did not listen to their body. They made it listen to them. They had a set plan...which included high volume, high frequency, short training sessions. And they did not worry about how they felt with exception of an injury Your body wants to be comfortable....if you listen to it...it will tell you to rest. It will say...missing one workout wont hurt you. It will say...I dont feel like it today. And that all adds up.

In football training camp two and three-a-day practices as standard practice. Are you tellin me that those athletes arent sore from the first two workouts when they hit the field for the third? So why can you only work one body part once a week?

I think that "undertraining" is more of a concern than "overtraining". Unless of course you are talkin about 2 hour marathon session in the gym that are counterproductive anyway. However if you keep your training sessions between 45min and 1 hour. You take an "active" part in your recovery...with practices such as massage, contrast showers, cool down sessions, and adequate nutrition. Then you can successfully train more frequently and hence make greater gains in a shorter amount of time. And TIME is a limited resource for all of us.

The preceeding post was caused by "overtraining syndrome". The author is not responsible for his actions. He needs rest.

Let the VERBAL DISECTION of my post begin.....

 

[Hannibal]

aaawww come W6...you are getting slow. I was expecting to get up today and have an "extra orifice" torn for me.

 

[Hannibal]

was just testosterone induced

And what is so bad about testosterone??!

 

[BigEasy]

Too Many Variables.......Augggghhhhhh!

Unfortunately, there are just too many variables at work here to formulate a 'real' picture of overtraining and an optimised workout **except** with personal 'trial and error' testing of methods. The better informed minds here only can offer us solid advise based upon their own personal experience adding in knowledge of solid research available. In the end though, we *must* each invest our own personal research to discover what things work for our individual circumstance and body. Thus, if what we are doing isn't working to our satisfaction, we should change something and reevaluate our results. Once satisfied with the results, then we can lock down the program.

Science and medicine knows that they don't REALLY know of anything that is *universally* applicable to *all* people, other than gross generalisations(more protein, rest, food, etc.) This is not surprising given the human body is a complex system of even more complex biochemical processes. Each of our systems has multiple variables affecting them like: diet, rest, workout induced muscle stresses/tears, and genetics, et al, ad nauseam. Considering that each of the different systems of the body are interrelated to the others in varying degrees, it is amazing that we know as much as we do.

Before I am flamed into an existence of nothing but ashes and vapour of only small carbon chain molecules; I am not saying science knows nothing. But we do know that people respond somewhat differently to the same stimuli.) Multiply the above mentioned variables with the natural human response variations, and THEN try to calculate definitive answers from all the different results...... Life is truly a bell-shaped curve and there are whole continuums of correct answers!

Personally, at my age(mid 40's) and overall health, I am working on a nine day split. My workouts are constantly varied but must avoid certain moves because my knee and hip joints have little cartiledge left in then. By the way, this is partly due to insane workouts in younger years, with little sleep or recovery time. Needless to say, squats and heavy deads are a thing of the past. Mrs. BE, however, is on a five day split, and can do any lift she pleases(Grrrr). We eat and sleep mostly the same, with minor adjustment for taste and caloric requirements. Her recovery time is significantly better than mine, both in the gym and......ahhh.......never mind. In my case, differences in recovery appear to have more to do with genetics and overall health than intensity or external variables like diet or sleep. Not sure that really proves anything, but we still keep plugging at it.

Everyone should be VERY concerned with the lack of sleep and rest. One ***WILL*** have to pay the piper for burning that candle at both ends. Perhaps, as in my case, with much more valuable things than just poor gains in the gym. Some examples might include wrinkles, cancer, arthritis, auto-immune problems, shorter life span, etc. No lecture, but I'm there already, and recent research statistics show that some problems were preventable, or could have been delayed with proper care.

 

[MS]

I think ya'll are stressed with holiday fun and games......

Steel, there is only so much detailed help you can get over the internet, try not to get too angry. You really, really need a clued up personal trainer if you can't yet assimilate all the bits of knowledge you've learned so far. We can not tell from a distance if you're overtraining, undertraining, eating too many carbs, too little protein etc.....as you appreciate there are hundreds of different methods, some which work better for certain folks than others. Thus Hannibals "philosophy" on overtraining no doubt works well for a young, naturally (or unaturally) high testosteroned male with world class genetics, and top notch coaches, dieticians, physios, massuers and nothing else to worry about in life other than eat, sleep, recover. In the real world of women with average genetics and full time families and careers, over extending yourself in any direction (including weights or lack of rest and good nutrition) can cause, at the very least, lack of progress and at the very worst negative progress or injury. As WarLobo once put it, it is not so much a question of overtraining as under recovering........However your symptoms do not sound to me like you're under recovering. Sounds more like bad luck. Injuries can happen at any time unexpectedly, even with the best of form and recovery.

Wilson6 said pretty much the same thing "You have to find what works for you, but I've had much success with each bodypart once per week, ditto with my clients, even the veteran lifters.
Personally, I think it has to do with the intensity that one lifts. I get the sense that some of you only think you are pushing max intensity, thus you're recovery time is less. Volume and intensity are different variables and everyone's training program is different." You may not find that answer "helpful" but at least he isn't pretending there is one and only one spilt that prevent overtraining and detraining. Hannibal was even less helpful in that all he said was that overtraining is bunk, without giving any specific info on how you should plan your training.

Now ya'll have a nice New Year.

 

[Hannibal]

Thus Hannibals "philosophy" on overtraining no doubt works well for a young, naturally (or unaturally) high testosteroned male with world class genetics, and top notch coaches, dieticians, physios, massuers and nothing else to worry about in life other than eat, sleep, recover.

Well using myself as an example. "My philosophy" will work for a young male....WITH shitty genetics, NO coach, NO dieticians, NO massage therapist, NO commercial gym membership....just IRON, and whatever food that could be afforded at the time. As well as working 40+ hours a week, and 12 hours a week of classes.

It also has worked for one of your own. I used "my philosophies" to help a female lifter here...and she added 20lbs in a short amount of time. You have seen the pics even if you dont know that you have.

And in a couple of weeks...I will have another success story about a woman on this board

Hannibal was even less helpful in that all he said was that overtraining is bunk, without giving any specific info on how you should plan your training.

Well I would have to agree with your first statement. "there is only so much detailed help you can get over the internet" My point was that one should not worry about overtraining if they arent seein any signs. A person should not let people on the internet that know next to nothing about her decided wether she is overtraining or not. At least that was my intended point.....it kinda got lost when I jumped up on my soap box and started ranting. Sorry about that....

 

[wilson6]

"and she added 20lbs in a short amount of time"

+

"we should add that this person had a perfect diet and was/is using winny"

= answer to......

"Females, I'm still not sure what drives women to AAS use"

 

[wilson6]

"Someday it might be nice if you could get off your smug little PhD-induced high horses and actually HELP somebody out. "

Ouch.....what did I say?

Sounds like we have a lot of horses high on estrogen here lately with some of these attack threads. Damn, this is getting to be like the guys board but with etiquette.

and Hannibal

I'm NOT interested in 3-a-day practices
I'm AM interested in undertraining, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be a meat eater.
I'm AM interested in any shortcuts I can get at my age.

"aaawww come W6...you are getting slow. I was expecting to get up today and have an "extra orifice" torn for me."

How was that?

and....lighten up Steel and a few others, there's no need to take this stuff so seriously. It's starting to get as ugly as some of the arguments at the National ACSM meetings.

W6

 

[new@gettinbig]

We make such simple things so complex!

 

[MS]

Whatever, as Wilson6 says, lighten up. I can honestly say I've only seen photos of 2 women on this board that I thought had exceptional physiques. Both were achieved with a combo of once-a-week splits, plus AAS and great genetics and diet. I know this for a fact because they both posted details of their diet, gear and training. Oops, I'd forgotten about W6's natioanl level client. So that makes 3. I assume if it was one of W6's clients, then she was prolly also on a weekly split (but W6 will correct if wrong). So whoever your women that have made great gains on your program are, they have yet to catch my eye. I'll bet you hard cash that if they could survive even one of my quad workouts (without AAS in their system) they wouldn't be feeling like hitting quads again for at least a week, and even then they'd no doubt feel inclined to go for a lighter session. The very fact that the human body is so adaptable works against bodybuilders IMHO. Bodybuilding is about the only soprt I know of where you aim to NOT adapt (unlike football/powerlifting/strongman comps etc...). So if you're recovering very quickly it's time to change things up again. That's my philosophy in a nutshell. My philosophy doesn't preclude a 3xday training split working for you, or anyone else. I know several pros personally, and they all do 2xday short burst splits, and do this 5-6 times each week, but even then they are not working the same bodypart every day. They are also 'bulking' and taking a s**tload of gear. I know for certain that once every 5-10 days of extreme intensity works for me and most (not all) of the female natty and low dose AAS clients I've supervised for bodybuilding gains. So bottom line would be that if Steel were under my supervision, she would do well on a weekly split, and if Hannibal was her coach, she may do as well under multiple training sessions per day? You can't say once a week doesn't work though, when you see clients such as Wilson6's gal doing so well on it. I don't care if your last name IS Siff..........

It sounds like we all agree on one thing-it doesn't sound like SteelWeaver is overtraining at the moment.

As for the estrogen problem on the board at the moment, I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with the high calorie, high fat and carb intake that a lot of us have been indulging in the last week or two (not to mention alcohol is very estrogenic).

 

[Hannibal]

Ok...people seem to have taken this thread personally so I am done with it. This is why I tend to shy away from discussion about "overtraining". Nothing that I said was meant in a confrontational way...if I want that I'll jump in the shark tank with everyone else on the Chat Board.

I also NEVER said that the once a week split would not work. Truth be told just about every program that you can imagine will work for a little while. However if you could do more work and make more gains. Dont you think that would be the quicker path to where you wanted to go?

Using myself, and some of the people I have helped here was not bragging or anything of the sort. Just showing of examples people that have trained high volume and made great gains. Using Dr. Siff as a reference was just an effort to cover my ass, so to speak, nothing else.

BOTTOM LINE: My point that I guess I failed to get across, as people took what I said the wrong way, was once a week was NOT the only way to go. That high volume does NOT immediately mean overtraining. And that some people need to "free their mind" so to speak as to what the body can accomplish naturally.

The part that makes me laugh about this thread is that someone would tell me to lighten up...now thats funny

 

[SteelWeaver]

LOL. OK, OK, I get the message. W6, MS - I'm sorry I lashed out like that at you. It was uncalled-for and misdirected. I kind of snapped - not carb or alcohol-induced - I've been quite good about eating clean. It's more my frustration that I'm in pain and can't train in the 2 weeks of the year when I can actually sleep for 10 hours a night if I like!

There's also the fact that I was labouring under the delusion yesterday morning that my 3-year relationship was in tatters, and that I was looking at spending the most depressing New Year's eve of my life. Now if you want to talk about oestrogen overload ... try a lesbian break-up on New Year's eve.


The good news is, it was simply my pride and stubbornness getting in the way of a make-up, so once I dropped them and tried communicating, love conquered all (sappy romantic violin music in background).

So, forgive me. I respect the opinions of both of you greatly, and appreciate almost any input you have, so I just felt hurt when it seemed you were dissing me. I do take my training etc. VERY seriously (too seriously for my gf, apparently), so I'll try lightening up a little on the boards and hitting harder in the gym and nutrition-wise, since I guess that's where I'll do most of the learning that pertains to my own responses.

You are, of course, correct, MS, when you say there is only so much detailed help one can get over the internet. It doesn't make it any less frustrating, but it is true, I know. Every little bit helps, though - each new piece fills out the puzzle a little more.

And I lied when I said I'm not interested in shortcuts - of course I am interested in shortcuts - just not the AAS/surgery type. We're all searching for the big Golden Key in one way or another.

Other good news is the acupuncturist who treated my back also does massage, and said she can introduce me to a proper sports masseur and/or acupuncturist. I figure undergoing this type of treatment, which is quite common and not so expensive here, regularly, could aid in recovery and help prevent future injuries. And once you have contacts in the sports world it's easier to find qualified people of all stripes, so I may luck out on a trainer.

Like BigEasy said - there are so many variables - each new one of which I discover significantly multiplies my frustration at not having more experience. I'd like to someday be at the point in my own progress where I can say with confidence, oh, that variable is not so important, or this one will do this, or whatever. It seems you can only read so much, then it's trial and error.

As for my training, I think I'm going to try 6 weeks or so on a weekly split, simply because I can't maintain intensity for the length of my current workouts (1.5 hours or so, longer for legs). At the same time I'll try to kick up the intensity. If I stay with the 3-day split I'll have to lower the volume to shorten the workouts, but I don't think I have the mental conditioning yet to perform intensely enough on a low-volume plan. I've only just started finding out what intensity really is, and would like to really focus on that for a while.

However, Hannibal, I'd be very interested to see what your plan usually involves, for future reference and experimentation. May I PM or e-mail you?

Thank you, everyone, for your input. Sorry again about my tantrum, and a happy New Year to you all! Really!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Aw, now Hannibal, don't go away. Your input is just as valuable/valid as anyone else's. The one thing that seems to come through loud and clear on these boards is that no one technique or system works all the time for everyone. That doesn't mean that debate should stop, though. Without debate and discussion we may as well go out and buy burqa. And referencing arguments with solid research always helps. I haven't heard of Dr Siff, but then, I haven't heard of a lot of people. OK, research paper flame wars are pretty pointless, but if the discussion is kept rational and civil ...

It seems to me (and this thread in particular has helped me discover it) that one just has to learn as much as one can from research etc., and then try everything that seems reasonable until you develop a system. And if others can help out with what they already know or have tried, great.

I suppose it's a human trait for people to fall into the trap of believing that once something works for them personally, they have "THE SYSTEM", the Golden Key to the universe, the open ear of God. And even if you don't do that, sometimes the expression of an opinion is taken by others to mean that it is your final word on the matter, particularly if you understandably omit to post your disclaimer. I don't think anyone here is that closed, though, otherwise I would've probably got more specific advice. lol.

I'm not going to comment on MS's comments, but from what I glean from other posts of hers, she's used to seeing lots of high calibre bodies, and has been training for years and years, so, I guess, naturally her standards are high. I've lately had to force myself not to look at Ms O competitors too much, for example, because most naturals look so scrawny after that. It's just what you're used to.

Anyway, I'm rambling horribly now. My main point is, don't shy away from expressing your opinions/experience if you believe they're valid, because, at the least, they will help to educate people like me! Ultimately one wants to try and stay open to other viewpoints, simply because that seems to be a good way to keep learning. And I think most people here will at least agree with that!

 

[wilson6]

"and Hannibal...........

I'm NOT interested in 3-a-day practices
I'm AM interested in undertraining, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be a meat eater.
I'm AM interested in any shortcuts I can get at my age."

It was a joke, I just picked up Steel's rant and rolled with it, with some modifications of course.

Whether we agree on training principles isn't the point, what is important is that all our methods are put forth so others can view them. As I said earlier, do what works for you or the people you train. But, as with ACSM conferences, be ready for others to cross-examine you (sometimes harshly) and defend their methods. Sometimes that is what brings out the necessary details of a program and gets us all to think. It ain't personal, it's business.

W6

 

[Hannibal]

"and Hannibal...........

I'm NOT interested in 3-a-day practices
I'm AM interested in undertraining, and
I'm NOT interested in changing my choice to be a meat eater.
I'm AM interested in any shortcuts I can get at my age."

It was a joke, I just picked up Steel's rant and rolled with it, with some modifications of course.

Obviously it was a joke...didnt bother me in the least. And my post about you being slow to "tear me a new one" was a joke as well. Thats why I found it funny that someone would tell me to lighten up.

The reason I tend to avoid discussions about 'overtraining", besides the fact that I dont really believe in it.....is that a majority of the time people already have their mind made up. There is a certain number of sets per week, per bodypart...and if you go over that then you must be overtraining...and if you make gains you must be "assisted". And people like this tend to spend so much time tryin to get their point across that they never really listen to new ideas.....and tryin to convince them to even listen is a big waste. At least that has been my experience in the past. That is why I am very quick to "throw up my hands" on this topic.

Will once a week work....of course. Is it optimal...I do not believe that it is. Like I said before if you can do more work in less time and make more gains.....then IMO that is a better choice. As mortals.... TIME is a luxury that we do not have.

"The body becomes its function"

 

[VooDoo Lady]

Now if you want to talk about oestrogen overload ... try a lesbian break-up on New Year's eve.

LMFAO!!!!! Damn Steelweaver you KILL me!

Your pain was pretty evident through your posts...I'm glad that things worked out for you

Happy New Year!!! Good luck cutting girl!

VDL

 

[MS]

Oh geesh Hannibal, I'm beginning to worry that YOU'VE got the estrogen induced hypersensitivity. Don't go away. The reason I prefer to contribute and answer questions on this board (rather than by private email) is BECAUSE I strongly feel a need for people to get varied input and opinions. This is BECAUSE there is no single 'right way' to train, diet, or maintain a healthy long term relationship etc.....

I studied and practiced most of Dr Siff's methods in my earlier years of training, so it is not out of ignorance that I comment. I made great strength gains and modest size gains, so I know it worked OK for me personally, but I was also pretty novice, and could also make size gains by doing full body weight circuits every other day!. I had to move on from there (since strength was not my main objective) when I hit an undeniable overtrained plateau. So I changed methods-I went to HIIT for a while. That also worked, even though (probably because) it is the complete opposite of what I was doing before. Of course that didn't work forever either. So from then on I learned the golden rule of bodybuilding. You have to change frequently. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that SteelWeaver would make good gains training with any method if followed with dedication and intensity, and now she's learning the benefits and limitations of the choices. Only she can tell if she's over trained.....if you don't believe in overtraining then clearly you would say she cannot possibly be overtrained. Sounds to me like semantics. Call it a plateau. Call it backsliding. Call it loss of size or lack of size gain. Call it injury prone. Call it anything you like, but if it ain't working then ya gotta change what you're doing.

 

[Hannibal]

Oh geesh Hannibal, I'm beginning to worry that YOU'VE got the estrogen induced hypersensitivity. Don't go away.

Naaaa....just some people take this stuff so personally when someone offers a different view that it isnt worth the effort.

Only she can tell if she's over trained.....but if it ain't working then ya gotta change what you're doing.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT "Soviet research had shown that the body can adapt to a new style of training within a two to four week period." That is why in my own training and in those that I help.....training is changed every three weeks.

And let me just say that there is a "hard ceiling" as far as how much you can workout. So in that way I do believe that overtraining is possible....however people seem to have such a low expectation of what they can accomplish. Their mind seems to limit their potential with the...."there is no way I could do that much work without overtraining" mentality.

Anyway I am off to the gym my workout #2 for the day.....I love overtraining especially when I get results from it

"The body becomes its fucntion"

 

[MS]

I actually think I know (and agree) with what you're saying. I have often pondered this at the gym where I notice the majority of people do not make any long term progress. But honest to god, they train like a girl (J/K ladies). They come in with a program drawn up by some flunky gym junkie behind the desk and have their mind set on doing 15 reps for 3 sets of something and they don't ever break a sweat or even grunt a little. They've read a little about "overtraining" and want to be absolutely certain it never happens to them (as if!!!). Even when I was only doing weight circuits and pump classes, I was pushing my self to my own limit and beyond for each and every class. My weights were always going up and most everyone else just left their weights the same week after week, year after year. After two years of just circuits and pump classes, I had the physique of a fitness competitor and I was hellishly strong (for a girl). It will always come down to intensity. But I also know that if I trained like that now that I'm an old gal, I would suffer serious pain and injury in a very short time. My recovery time is slower, my tendons and ligaments are less resilient and I stay sore a lot longer than I used to. So now I HAVE to listen to my body if I want to stay in the BB game. AAS may help some of these recovery probs, but eventually you have to back off or you can overtrain to the point of an injury that ruins your BB career. Stay fit and young as long as you can Hannibal. And enjoy it!

 

[SteelWeaver]

LMFAO!!!!! Damn Steelweaver you KILL me!

Your pain was pretty evident through your posts...I'm glad that things worked out for you

Happy New Year!!! Good luck cutting girl!

VDL

VDL - you are SO sweet! Thank you. Things are much better on all fronts - mental space cleared for the new year. You're cutting now, too, aren't you? Good luck!

 

[SteelWeaver]

As for you, Steel, it's Tiiiiiiiiiiiime!

You grab your eggwhites and I'll grab my steak...we're about to get lean and mean!

Here we go...

Heh heh - I LOVE your sense of humour spatterson! Don't know about leaner, but betcha I can get meaner than YOU! (ask gf )

Whoa, oh my gosh! Is it supposed to feel like a roller-coaster ALREADY?