Generic vs brand drugs

[Awinai]

I see there is no definitive conclusion on this one here. But Lev's point makes sense to me. I can take for example the generic Cola, and original one - they are supposed to have the same ingredients, but they do taste so much differently.

 

[Lev Butlerov]

Objectively: in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

''examples I can bring up, all of which I have encountered personally''

Note I said it depends on the drug. Now (I'm quoting here) 'Generic drugs are required to have the same active ingredient, strength, dosage form, and route of administration as the brand name product. Generic drugs do not need to contain the same inactive ingredients as the brand name'.

So, as per my example above, if I want to buy a 200mg Neurofen tablet (or a strip of them) I can pay £3 for a box of brand name or I can pay £1.00 for a supermarket generic version.

There's a consumer company over here called 'Which'. For years it's tested and compared products. One such test compared a bunch of brand name Neurofen products. All made by the same company but one was for neck pain, one for back pain and so on. Every one tested out as the same. No difference what so ever. Then we have newspaper reports of generic vs brand and (again as above) IF the ingredients were identical in every way there was no difference except in price.

You yourself say 'Basically, the great majority of the raws come from China, so all companies end up with the same product. But then the differences come into place when some companies filter and clean these raws more thoroughly than others.'

Objectivity needs to be what it said it is. Even in your dads example science argues that a one off result doesn't prove a theory.

To be clear - in the argument of branded vs generic - you must compare like with like. If there are missing or added ingredients, if the active ingredients are different in amounts or form then you are NOT comparing like with like. Where the above is identical in every way you pay a higher price for the branded name and or perception of value.

Regarding perception of value over actual value. It's a very, very simple trick. I can take two identical products - made to the same quality in every way. I sell one on street corners in a plain brown box dressed casually. The other I put on a white coat, stick a pen in my pocket and maybe add a stethoscope. I also make the box a white one. And instead I sell it in a store. Guess which one people trust the most?

When I say "personally," I don't mean that it is a subjective perception - I mean that I have seen the case with my own eyes, and not just heard it from some Joe from the street. And I believe what I see, and I believe the measurements that are taken by medical equipment.

The example I have brought up with my father is not a single case - this issue has been going on for years already, and I don't see how placebo effect can decrease his blood sugar by 300% (yes, three hundred percent) more effectively. Every time he gets back to the generic, his blood sugar raises big time, and when he takes the branded metformin, blood sugar is in check.

Just recently I have observed the exact same situation with my mother, who was taking a generic against increased blood pressure, and it did not help her at all. Then she took the exact same medicine, but a branded one from Japan, took half the dosage and her blood pressure decreased. And let me tell you that there is no placebo effect either, because she is an elderly person who has no idea of the generics and brands - she just takes whatever I get for her.

Let me give you an analogy - take the indian car Tata, and the German Mercedes. The ingredients are all the same, and supposedly the manufacturing process in general lines is the same - but a Tata will never be as good as even the shittiest Mercedes.

The same thing goes with original phones, and fake Chinese iPhones. Hell - they may even be produced at the same factory, but they are not the same.

It is not only about having ingredients as such - it is about their quality, and the quality of the manufacturing process.

As I have also mentioned, I worked in a project of a pharma plant, and I have seen from inside how the difference is made between the meds. Some companies will get additional equipment to filter those raw materials from China, others will get even more equipment. In the end, when you filter the raw materials 3-4 times in comparison to 0-1 times, you end up with less active substance. Here you already get the price increase - additional equipment and machinery, and more raw material needed in order to get the right amount of purified active substance.

 

[Lev Butlerov]

Brand name drugs are always the better way to go if you can afford it. After a about 7 years a company can produce a generic. The active ingredients might be the same, but in most cases the brand name works the best. Usually better quality, including the fillers inside. My ex is bi polar and she could only take the brand name medication. If she were to take the generic version she would go crazy. I've noticed a huge difference in pain killers years ago between the two was really different. Always go brand name if you have the money and option.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i swear when i am at the drug store and there is the store brand product and the name brand for a bit more the name brand has always worked so much better even though they have similar ingredients or the same. no idea why, maybe it is psychological

Exactly! This is what I mean by personal experience - when you see actually people getting different results from supposedly same compounds. And I am pretty sure that 90% of these people did not fall into this debate of generics vs. brands - they just use the meds.

Assuming the dosages are equal - they will be absolutely identical.

The brand of the drug doesn't matter. It's kind of like comparing brand name groceries to no name brand. It's the exact same thing. You always pay more for brand name.

Generic drugs are great. I purchase them whenever possible since they are cheaper.

Trevor, have you ever tried generic Snickers or Cola? I know that these foods sound like a crime to you, but still though. Let me tell you, that the generics taste like shit compared to the originals, even though they are supposed to be the same.

The placebo effect and the so-called 'white coat' effect are very real.

Heck, back in the day I coached a weak ass lad who was using a bench press machine (the kind with a stack). he said 'I can't bench 30-kilos' and I tricked him into being able to rep it by covering his eyes with a towel and not telling him the weight.

Can placebo effect increase blood sugar by 300% each and every single time a person takes the generic metformin? I am a professional psychologist graduated in a civilized country - I can tell you that placebo effect is indeed potent, but not to such an extent. Usually, you can expect up to 30% of the results to be affected by the placebo effects (this, in fact, is the borderline when determining the effectiveness of meds in most studies), but not a 100%.

 

[SteveMobsterG]

Lev: you used objectively and you meant personally. The issue of filtering out impurities will be, at best, differences of less than 1%. You'll know that from your time in the industry.

And, unlike the example of metaforim, I referred to OTC painkillers. In fact I specifically said why too.

 

[Lev Butlerov]

Unlike my example - pain is a very subjective feeling that is affected by many things. There is no way of measuring it objectively, hence its perception is more prone to be affected by the placebo effect.

I was talking about blood sugar, which is not reported by a patient - it is measured with medical equipment that gives exact figures. When I was talking about blood pressure, this too can be measured objectively.

Frankly, there was a time I believed that generics are the same thing as brands, but cheaper. But these two cases, and several more have proven to me that there is a difference. In an ideal world generics would be identical to brands, but we do not live in an utopia.

Don't believe that people manufacture generics because they want to deliver medicines at a cheaper price to a wider pubic. That is not true. There are two major reasons there are people who manufacture generics - those who do not have the money for the best equipment, and those who do not develop medicines, and just copy them.

Regarding the residual materials from the Chinese raws - you would be amazed if you only know how much shit is found there. That is more than one 1%, and this is not the only factor. With this example I tried to explain, that even the same raw materials can be different in different hands.

 

[SteveMobsterG]

Pain is indeed subjective.

Slight change of topic and useful for Elitefitness and Evolutionary:

There's a lot of opinion over how much better pharma gear is than what we shorthand to UGL (underground labs). Now we both know that if there is a place where filtering of the product DOES make a difference. A test ester is a test ester. But the issues with the label saying one thing and the vial containing another is huge. Never mind it supposedly being an enthanate vs a cypionate it's sometimes not even in the same class.

I was sent a screenshot of a UK Labs test sheet for their GH where their number is 1/3 higher than another local 'brand' on sale nearby. You would be literally getting more for your buck.

What we all see with UGL's vs pharma (too, too rare) is a lab starts out on point, then dilutes and cuts the product and finally someone else starts copying it lol.

 

[yock925]

When you’re comparing generic vs brand drugs it depends on the person taking the medication, and who makes the medication. Most OTC medications are the same, they both contain the same ingredients. If you look at a flu medication the generic and the name brand have the same ingredients. When it comes to other medications it can very with the person. For example my ex takes meds for being bi polar. She is allergic to the generic version of her medication to the point she has to be hospitalized, but the name brand medication has helped her live a normal life. I have back problems and use to take pain killers to help with the pain. I noticed a completely different feeling when going from name brand to generic. I felt a lot more intoxicated with the generic. The name brand ones killed the pain better while not leaving me feeling drunk. I would guess some companies do a better job of reproducing medications than others. I would compare generic vs brand names like car body shops. Some shops do a great job at fixing your car, where it looks like it was never wrecked. While another place could be fixing the same thing and it won’t turn out as good. Maybe they’re not using the same tools, which would be like fillers in medications. I always try to buy generic due to the price, but if insurance helps me out I go brand name all day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk