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Gaining Mass/ Bulking up on Anavar
- Thread starter DANIEDOLL
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"TBG, total T4, and total T3 were significantly (P < 0.001) decreased, whereas basal TSH and free T4 were not significantly different from the values of the other 8 without androgenic steroids."
Quoted from that abstract. The fact that TSH and fT4 were not affected suggests that there was little if any effect on metabolism.
Both estrogens and androgens can alter T3 uptake and total T4 because of changes in TBG (in opposite directions), but have no overall effect on T7 or FTI, or thyroid metabolism per se. There are a number of variables to consider when evaluating thyroid function. Before the authors or anyone else could conclude that the effect of AAS (1200 mg/wk in this case), via their effects on thyroid function had any effect on metabolism would be to measure it directly in a metabolic chamber. To conclude from these results that AAS decreases metabolism is like saying the moon is made of cheese because it looks like there are holes in it when viewed with the naked eye.
If anything androgens or AAS increase metabolic rate because of their positive effects on protein synthesis. If you look at the transsexual lit, women to men trannys lose fat and add muscle when put on test.
Having said all of this, I'll take a look at the lit and see if anyone has measured metabolic rate as a function of AAS treatment, but given the fact that the most recent studies show a decrease in fat mass and increase in muscle mass during treatment, that would suggest that AAS do not decrease metabolism in general.
W6
Quoted from that abstract. The fact that TSH and fT4 were not affected suggests that there was little if any effect on metabolism.
Both estrogens and androgens can alter T3 uptake and total T4 because of changes in TBG (in opposite directions), but have no overall effect on T7 or FTI, or thyroid metabolism per se. There are a number of variables to consider when evaluating thyroid function. Before the authors or anyone else could conclude that the effect of AAS (1200 mg/wk in this case), via their effects on thyroid function had any effect on metabolism would be to measure it directly in a metabolic chamber. To conclude from these results that AAS decreases metabolism is like saying the moon is made of cheese because it looks like there are holes in it when viewed with the naked eye.
If anything androgens or AAS increase metabolic rate because of their positive effects on protein synthesis. If you look at the transsexual lit, women to men trannys lose fat and add muscle when put on test.
Having said all of this, I'll take a look at the lit and see if anyone has measured metabolic rate as a function of AAS treatment, but given the fact that the most recent studies show a decrease in fat mass and increase in muscle mass during treatment, that would suggest that AAS do not decrease metabolism in general.
W6
Here's what I found.
Generally an increase in BMR and effects of AAS appear to be via TBG. So, despite changes in lab values, there does not appear to be a negative effect on BMR.
Lovejoy, J C; Bray, G A; Bourgeois, M O; Macchiavelli, R; Rood, J C; Greeson, C; Partington, C
Exogenous androgens influence body composition and regional body fat distribution in obese postmenopausal women--a clinical research center study.
The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. vol. 81, no. 6 (1996 Jun): 2198-203.
Abdominal fat distribution is influenced by androgen levels in both men and women. The purpose of this study was to assess the effects on fat distribution of administering nandrolone decanoate (ND; an anabolic steroid with weak androgenic activity) or spironolactone (SP; an antiandrogen) in obese postmenopausal women. The design was a randomized, placebo-controlled, 9-month trial with simultaneous calorie restriction for weight loss. Women in all three groups lost comparable amounts of weight, but the ND-treated women gained lean mass relative to the other two groups (P < 0.0005) and lost more body fat than women in the SP group (P < 0.01). The resting metabolic rate also increased slightly in the ND group. ND treatment produced a gain in visceral fat, as determined by computed tomography scan, and a relatively greater loss of sc abdominal fat. SP-treated women lost significantly less sc fat than the other two groups. Serum cholesterol decreased in the placebo group, but increased slightly in the other two groups (significant for SP vs. placebo, P < 0.05). High density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased significantly in the ND-treated women. There were no significant changes in fasting glucose or insulin sensitivity. We conclude that administration of exogenous androgens modulates body composition in obese postmenopausal women and independently affects visceral and sc abdominal fat.
Welle, S; Jozefowicz, R; Forbes, G; Griggs, R C
Effect of testosterone on metabolic rate and body composition in normal men and men with muscular dystrophy.
The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. vol. 74, no. 2 (1992 Feb): 332-5.
We have examined the effect of testosterone enanthate injections (3 mg/kg.week, im) on the basal metabolic rate (BMR) estimated by indirect calorimetry and on lean body mass (LBM) estimated by 40K counting in four normal men and nine men with muscular dystrophy. Testosterone treatment increased plasma testosterone levels in all subjects (3-fold mean elevation). BMR increased significantly after 3 months of testosterone treatment (mean, 10%; P less than 0.01; 13% mean increase in the men with muscular dystrophy and 7% mean increase in the normal subjects). BMR remained elevated (mean increase, 9%) after 12 months of testosterone treatment in four men with muscular dystrophy. LBM also was significantly higher after 3 months of treatment (mean, 10%; P less than 0.01) and remained elevated at 12 months. The percent increase in LBM was similar in men with muscular dystrophy (+10%) and normal men (+11%). When BMR was adjusted for the increase in LBM by linear regression, the men with muscular dystrophy had an increase in adjusted BMR after 3 months of testosterone treatment (mean increase, 7%), but not after 12 months. The normal men did not have an increase in adjusted BMR. Testosterone treatment for 12 months slightly reduced body fat, whereas there was an increase in body fat in subjects with muscular dystrophy who were treated with placebo for 12 months. We conclude that there is a significant increase in BMR associated with pharmacological testosterone treatment, which for the most part is explained by the increase in LBM. However, in men with muscular dystrophy, there is a small hypermetabolic effect of testosterone beyond that explained by increased LBM.
Alen, M; Rahkila, P; Reinila, M; Vihko, R
Androgenic-anabolic steroid effects on serum thyroid, pituitary and steroid hormones in athletes.
The American journal of sports medicine. vol. 15, no. 4 (1987 Jul-Aug): 357-61.
Endocrine responses in seven power athletes were investigated during a 12 week strength training period, when the athletes were taking high doses of androgenic-anabolic steroids, and during the 13 weeks following drug withdrawal. During the use of steroids significant decreases (P less than 0.05 to 0.001) in the serum concentrations of thyroid stimulating hormone, thyroxine, triidothyronine, free thyroxine, and thyroid hormone-binding globulin (TBG) were found, whereas the value of triidothyronine uptake increased (P less than 0.001). In relation to the changes in the thyroid function parameters measured, we suggest that the primary target of androgen action was TBG biosynthesis. In five of the seven subjects, serum concentrations of growth hormone increased at some point of the study 5 to 60-fold. Because of the use of exogenous testosterone, serum testosterone concentration tended to increase. This increase was associated with a corresponding increase (P less than 0.001) in serum estradiol. Furthermore, there were major decreases in serum LH (P less than 0.01) and FSH (P less than 0.01) concentrations, and testicular testosterone production was therefore decreased. This was characterized by a very low serum testosterone concentration (5.1 +/- 1.8 nmol/l) 4 weeks following drug withdrawal. Cessation of drug use resulted in return of all the variables measured to the initial values, except for serum testosterone, which was at a low level (14.6 +/- 8.8 nmol/l) 9 weeks after drug withdrawal, indicating prolonged impairment of testicular endocrine function. No consistent changes were found in the eight control athletes.
Generally an increase in BMR and effects of AAS appear to be via TBG. So, despite changes in lab values, there does not appear to be a negative effect on BMR.
Lovejoy, J C; Bray, G A; Bourgeois, M O; Macchiavelli, R; Rood, J C; Greeson, C; Partington, C
Exogenous androgens influence body composition and regional body fat distribution in obese postmenopausal women--a clinical research center study.
The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. vol. 81, no. 6 (1996 Jun): 2198-203.
Abdominal fat distribution is influenced by androgen levels in both men and women. The purpose of this study was to assess the effects on fat distribution of administering nandrolone decanoate (ND; an anabolic steroid with weak androgenic activity) or spironolactone (SP; an antiandrogen) in obese postmenopausal women. The design was a randomized, placebo-controlled, 9-month trial with simultaneous calorie restriction for weight loss. Women in all three groups lost comparable amounts of weight, but the ND-treated women gained lean mass relative to the other two groups (P < 0.0005) and lost more body fat than women in the SP group (P < 0.01). The resting metabolic rate also increased slightly in the ND group. ND treatment produced a gain in visceral fat, as determined by computed tomography scan, and a relatively greater loss of sc abdominal fat. SP-treated women lost significantly less sc fat than the other two groups. Serum cholesterol decreased in the placebo group, but increased slightly in the other two groups (significant for SP vs. placebo, P < 0.05). High density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased significantly in the ND-treated women. There were no significant changes in fasting glucose or insulin sensitivity. We conclude that administration of exogenous androgens modulates body composition in obese postmenopausal women and independently affects visceral and sc abdominal fat.
Welle, S; Jozefowicz, R; Forbes, G; Griggs, R C
Effect of testosterone on metabolic rate and body composition in normal men and men with muscular dystrophy.
The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism. vol. 74, no. 2 (1992 Feb): 332-5.
We have examined the effect of testosterone enanthate injections (3 mg/kg.week, im) on the basal metabolic rate (BMR) estimated by indirect calorimetry and on lean body mass (LBM) estimated by 40K counting in four normal men and nine men with muscular dystrophy. Testosterone treatment increased plasma testosterone levels in all subjects (3-fold mean elevation). BMR increased significantly after 3 months of testosterone treatment (mean, 10%; P less than 0.01; 13% mean increase in the men with muscular dystrophy and 7% mean increase in the normal subjects). BMR remained elevated (mean increase, 9%) after 12 months of testosterone treatment in four men with muscular dystrophy. LBM also was significantly higher after 3 months of treatment (mean, 10%; P less than 0.01) and remained elevated at 12 months. The percent increase in LBM was similar in men with muscular dystrophy (+10%) and normal men (+11%). When BMR was adjusted for the increase in LBM by linear regression, the men with muscular dystrophy had an increase in adjusted BMR after 3 months of testosterone treatment (mean increase, 7%), but not after 12 months. The normal men did not have an increase in adjusted BMR. Testosterone treatment for 12 months slightly reduced body fat, whereas there was an increase in body fat in subjects with muscular dystrophy who were treated with placebo for 12 months. We conclude that there is a significant increase in BMR associated with pharmacological testosterone treatment, which for the most part is explained by the increase in LBM. However, in men with muscular dystrophy, there is a small hypermetabolic effect of testosterone beyond that explained by increased LBM.
Alen, M; Rahkila, P; Reinila, M; Vihko, R
Androgenic-anabolic steroid effects on serum thyroid, pituitary and steroid hormones in athletes.
The American journal of sports medicine. vol. 15, no. 4 (1987 Jul-Aug): 357-61.
Endocrine responses in seven power athletes were investigated during a 12 week strength training period, when the athletes were taking high doses of androgenic-anabolic steroids, and during the 13 weeks following drug withdrawal. During the use of steroids significant decreases (P less than 0.05 to 0.001) in the serum concentrations of thyroid stimulating hormone, thyroxine, triidothyronine, free thyroxine, and thyroid hormone-binding globulin (TBG) were found, whereas the value of triidothyronine uptake increased (P less than 0.001). In relation to the changes in the thyroid function parameters measured, we suggest that the primary target of androgen action was TBG biosynthesis. In five of the seven subjects, serum concentrations of growth hormone increased at some point of the study 5 to 60-fold. Because of the use of exogenous testosterone, serum testosterone concentration tended to increase. This increase was associated with a corresponding increase (P less than 0.001) in serum estradiol. Furthermore, there were major decreases in serum LH (P less than 0.01) and FSH (P less than 0.01) concentrations, and testicular testosterone production was therefore decreased. This was characterized by a very low serum testosterone concentration (5.1 +/- 1.8 nmol/l) 4 weeks following drug withdrawal. Cessation of drug use resulted in return of all the variables measured to the initial values, except for serum testosterone, which was at a low level (14.6 +/- 8.8 nmol/l) 9 weeks after drug withdrawal, indicating prolonged impairment of testicular endocrine function. No consistent changes were found in the eight control athletes.
Excellent posts W6. It is always nice to see lots of research, as well as anecdotal evidence, to help understand things.
Everybody is differnt. I have found for ME that AAS hasn't made me gain fat - except when my diet is off, which would happen with or without AAS. Diet is the primary factor for gaining muscle or fat as well as losing muscle or fat. And honestly, I feel that AAS has helped my metabolism by increasing my LBW.
Everybody is differnt. I have found for ME that AAS hasn't made me gain fat - except when my diet is off, which would happen with or without AAS. Diet is the primary factor for gaining muscle or fat as well as losing muscle or fat. And honestly, I feel that AAS has helped my metabolism by increasing my LBW.
AAS are nothing more than nutrient repartitioning agents. They simply redirect nutrients toward lean vs fat assuming enough protein and adequate mechanical stimulus, and it is the additional lean that likely contributes in large part to the increase in RMR (the two are highly correlated), but there is also an effect on energy consumption as a function of protein synthesis (increased cellular respiration and activity).
I remember a buddy of mine back in the 80's, a wirey guy who went on a low dose of OX and Deca, started growing like something out of a science fiction movie. Ahhhh, that first cycle. Anyhow he was putting on a pound a week and getting leaner as he went on, funny thing was that even sitting still, he would sweat and ventilate more. No problems with blood pressure or anything else, just the effects of increased cellular metabolism. He was consuming more O2 and thus more calories as a function of his cycle. Didn't understand the concept back then, but it makes sense now.
W6
I remember a buddy of mine back in the 80's, a wirey guy who went on a low dose of OX and Deca, started growing like something out of a science fiction movie. Ahhhh, that first cycle. Anyhow he was putting on a pound a week and getting leaner as he went on, funny thing was that even sitting still, he would sweat and ventilate more. No problems with blood pressure or anything else, just the effects of increased cellular metabolism. He was consuming more O2 and thus more calories as a function of his cycle. Didn't understand the concept back then, but it makes sense now.
W6
pacificwahine
New member
Danie, I am new to this message board but i came across your post....i am also going to be going on anavar in the next month. i have been lifting about 5 years now- post baby- and can not seem to get above 115 lbs ( I am 5'4"). i would really like to know how it is going for you and how you tweaked your diet to keep up with the massive amounts of protein needed to bulk.
PhysicalGirl
Banned
KEL said:
1. basic endocrinology says thyroid Hormone DOES affect metabolism- but you cannot conclude that AAS solely slows your metabolism- one study is NOT proof.
2. Every woman I know that has used AAS has put on fat however they also put on muscle mass and that helps raise their metabolic rate hence aids in fat loss.
As Daisy_Girl said no two bodies are the same when it comes AAS- and I agree with her 100%
There are more STUDIES WITH THE SAME CONCLUSION. I'm not going to hand them all to you.
If you did your research you would also know EXACTLY HOW it lowers the effects of normal T3 levels.
Also. I'm sure it effects men different than women.
Its also says this in most steroid books published. Go and get one and read it.
Last edited:
PhysicalGirl
Banned
wilson6 said:
If thats ALL it is than how do you explane Virilization in women from a Male sex hormones like AAS?????
M
Michael Wong
Guest
Personally, I think you should leave the chemicals alone, unless you really, really want to grow a dick.
pacificwahine
New member
wow. i thought this was a woman's discussion...why read a female thread on anavar if that's your only suggestion.
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