Gaining Lean Body Muscle while losing fat... mass

[razer2000]

I've read a lot of interesting threads about this subject on this board, and the weight of this board seems to feel that you need to bulk (eat more calories than your body needs) to gain muscle, then cut to shed the fat - in that order.

Why can't someone actually lose body fat while still building muscle? Assuming optimum nutrition, what would stop that from happening?

I ask this because I'd like to hear some informed opinions on this matter. I personally don't like to put on all that body fat. I've done only one cycle in the past and I ballooned up to 240 lbs, and was extremely uncomfortable. I prefer to be lean - and not just for aesthetic reasons.

I'd like my second cycle to be one where I eat very strict and try and build only lean body mass, but I see most people split everything into two categories - cutting cycle and bulking cycle. I'd like to pose the question of why can't someone do a "bulking" cycle while still trying to lose or maintain current levels of body fat? Why must one choose between the two?

I hope this sparks a lively, thoughtful exchange of ideas and information.

 

[strengthmonster]

Even when the diet is exceptionally clean, in order to add muscle mass calories must be high as well as protein, carbs etc. The excess of calories over your BMR will add some fat to you even if you are eating a very low amount. Without this bulking period muscle will not grow as to diet you are taking away many of the things needed for lean muscle growth.

 

[Beezers]

, and the weight of this board seems to feel that you need to bulk (eat more calories than your body needs) to gain muscle,

The bulk of this board does not seem to FEEL that you must consume hypercaloric diet to add mass....Science and human physiology make this rule. This is a fact of life. If you want to add mass to your body you must consume more calories than you burn...otherwise too many other more important processes will be alloted the limited energy to carry out vital body functions while in a reduced calorie state. Can't eat more calories than you use and less calories than you use in the same day can you? Tha't why you need consistantly consume excess calories along with high protein to add muscle mass. This is not what the board SEEMS to feel. This is the rule human physiology has set.

Why can't someone actually lose body fat while still building muscle? Assuming optimum nutrition, what would stop that from happening?

Refer to part one of this serman.

I ask this because I'd like to hear some informed opinions on this matter. I personally don't like to put on all that body fat. I've done only one cycle in the past and I ballooned up to 240 lbs, and was extremely uncomfortable. I prefer to be lean - and not just for aesthetic reasons.

Gotta make acrifices to get massive...to acheive your full mass pottential. That means sacrificing ripped abs and a lean physique while pushing the limits of mass on your body.

I'd like my second cycle to be one where I eat very strict and try and build only lean body mass, but I see most people split everything into two categories - cutting cycle and bulking cycle. I'd like to pose the question of why can't someone do a "bulking" cycle while still trying to lose or maintain current levels of body fat? Why must one choose between the two?

Again...to gain mass you must be consuming more calories than you burn. To loose weight(fat) you must be using more calories than you consume. You can and most certainly should eat clean nutritious foods, but the fact of the matter is calorie intake. Eat all the oats and chicken you want, but if your calories from those oats and chicken are higher than your expenditure you will gain weight. If you're a hard training individual most of it will be solid muscle mass. It all boils down to caloric intake.

I hope this sparks a lively, thoughtful exchange of ideas and information.

 

[razer2000]

Fair enough. Well put....

But haven't you known or observed a really fat, out-of-shape guy start at your gym, and over time, watch him slim down AND get stronger at the same time?

I have seen and know people like that - ones that finally decide to get back in shape. They join the gym, start hitting the weights, hit the treadmill, and start watching their diets more carefully. I see them shed pounds, and I watch as their poundages on their lifts increase. I'm assuming that they are actually building muscle because they get stronger. I can't actually say I see them getting bigger (muscle growth) because their bodies are actually getting smaller, but I'm assuming that muscle is being built under the fat.

Since they are shedding fat, why are they also getting stronger? Can it be that they are actually losing (or, at best, maintaining) their muscle mass, but that their muscles are just getting more efficient, more in shape, but not necessarily bigger?

Observing people like this is what made me start this thread. It sure seems to me that these guys are building muscle WHILE losing fat.

I thank you for imparting your knowledge.

 

[serge]

you cant effeciently do both at the same time, they contridict each other. if you take 4 months and do your bulking cycle on a reduced calorie diet in an attempt to gain mass and loose fat at the same time; and compare the results with just doing 2months of all out bulking followed by 2 months of all out cutting, the bulking followed by cutting will result in much better outcome

 

[Vageta]

I believe it is theoretically impossible for your body to actually do both things at the same time, literally. Your body must be in a catabolic state to burn fat and it must be in an anabolic state to burn muscle. I don't think these 2 states can occur simultaneously. However I do think that you can alternate between them in a short period of time, perhaps many times a day, and thus will it will "seem" like you are doing it at the same time.

This short period of time could be in days, hours, or whatever. For example if you had 12 weeks to get in shape but you needed to lose some fat and put on a bit of muscle how would you do it? Bulk 6 weeks and then cut 6 weeks? Not the best choice as 6 solid weeks of cutting is bound to burn off some of the muscle you gained during the bulking. What if you did 1 week of bulking followed by 1 week of cutting for 6 straight cycles? Due to the short period of time you are in each cycle you would probably end up in better shape as your body won't burn much muscle in that week of dieting, especially if you've just came off of a high calorie week. This has to do with hormonal responses, aka leptin, along with physcological reasons. I guarantee you that if you only had to diet a week at a time you could stick to it 100% whereas doing it for 6 weeks at a time might test your perseverence.

Or perhaps you can do it on a daily basis. The key is you don't magically switch from anabolism to catabolism in a heartbeat. If you normally eat 6 times a day at 400 calories a meal then you get 2400 calories for the day. You are obviously in a dieting phase and should be losing fat. Now what if you ate 500 calories for the first 3 meals then 300 calories for the last 3 meals, would you still lose the same amount of fat? You should. How does your body know that the extra calories in the first 3 meals will be balanced by the fewer calories in the last 3 meals? It doesn't, therefore it just keeps going based on what you're giving it.

So what if we switched up our eating to revolve around the workout. We know protein synthesis is elevated post workout thus our body is in a prime environment to shuttle amino acids and nutrients into the muscle to promote growth. So what if we worked out in the morning, then for so many hours we fed it quality protein and carbs to promote anabolism, then after so many hours we switch back to our diet. Our results would depend on total caloric intake for the day. If we are over our maintenance level we should gain some amount of weight for the day. If we are under maintenance we should lose some amount of weight. If we choose the latter hopefully we've put on a small amount of muscle during that short time after the workout and then later that day we've burned off some fat while keeping what muscle we built.

Looking at the amount built and lost in one day isn't much, but if we continued this cycle for weeks on end we should be able to slowly alter our body composition in a positive manner. Sure you're not going to put on 20 pounds in 12 weeks, however you might be able to put on 10 pounds along with lose 10 pounds of fat which is even more of a drastic change as far as body ratios go. This is all theory of course though I might be testing it out in the weeks to come. I'm more interested in building muslce mass without significant fat gain so there is no essential dieting every year. If you can eat a certain way to promote LBM gains without fat gains then it would take a full fledge diet out of the game.

So short answer is no you can't really do it at the same time, but I think you can do it in short cycles to give the appearance of doing it at the same time.

 

[Nathan]

Serge posted some great info regarding the necessity to all-out bulk. Check it out if you haven't already.
I think this is a good question that everyone is interested in. More testing needs to be done regarding diets and ways to put on muscle or at the very least conserve it when losing fat.
Maybe I'll try bulking for a week and then dieting the next week for a few months or so and see what happens. It seems that the theory is there.

 

[bgdaddysmooth]

I think it's possible for some to do both at the same time, but not everyone. Fat fucks who lose weight and get stronger do so b/c they probably just started lifting, or came back after a break. Everyone knows what the gains are like the first month or two of training. If you have great genes, you might be able to do it even if you're not a newbie. I've tried and tried again, and it just won't happen for me. Now I've just said fuck it. I either bulk or cut, nothing else( well I just maintain at times). Even shit like fina, which is supposed to put on mass and reduce body fat, didn't do it for me. I had great gains when I ate enough, or I lost a lot of fat when I cut. This probably isn't what you want to hear, but it's what I've found out after YEARS of experimenting.

 

[Digital Ronin]

Fair enough. Well put....

But haven't you known or observed a really fat, out-of-shape guy start at your gym, and over time, watch him slim down AND get stronger at the same time?

Yes, this was me many years ago... but in truth, these (me) individuals are simply so out of shape (it almost pains me to remember these days) that any increase in cardiovascular activity is going to increae their metabolism and therefore burn fat... Couple this with the fact that they are probably gung ho on their diet (the first time for many of these people) and some resistance training (for muscles that have had limited use) and these are the results you'll see. What we aren't seeing is these people putting on 15-20lbs of LBM and losing 5-6% bf. These people are simply getting back to square one. Once their body regulates itself, then you're going to see diminished returns on their program.

Just my personal experience...

 

[bsjohnson]

Lets look at one week. Lets say your body needs 2000Kcals to maintain your present weight. You workout hard 5days a week, and 2days you just rest and sit on your ass. Well for the 5days you train hard you will increase you Kcal intake to compensate for your increase energy. Well for the two days you rest don't consume 3000kcals, b/c your body doesn't need that many. So you want to zig-zag your diet to meet your needs for the day. Don't treat every day the same, each day is a new day, and your activity levels will be different. Plan a head, eat a clean diet, hit the cardio, and weights, and you will loose bodyfat, and put on lean muscle. It just takes time!!!

 

[Starski]

I think it is possible to put on lean muscle mass while maintaining or losing body fat, well if you maintain the some amount of body fat while gaining then your you BF% will of course drop seeing as it is a percentage of your overall weight.

I personally have managed to gain muscle mass while retaining the same amount of bodyfat. I feel loosing and gaining at the same time while technically possible does not work out to be the most efficient way of bodybuilding. Getting the balance right is just too damn difficult so the majority of people me included use the scatter-gun approach and make sure our bodys have more than calories enough to grow and when cutting reducing well under our BMR to speed up the fat loss.

Seeing as most people are only on a cycle for 8-10 weeks we don't want to getting envoled with trail and error with or diet to get the optimum balance and waste valuable growing time.

My opinion

Starski

 

[Yellowbomber]

diet sucks, diet or bulk but all two together don't work

 

[lawnsaver]

It is possible. My last cycle I gained 13lbs, while losing 6% bf. That is a 23lbs lean mass gain. I lost fat while gaining muscle. Why is everyone so black and white on this subject? Everyone is trying to be so scientific, it funny. Every cuttinig cycle achieves this goal. You lose fat while gaining new muscle. Why is everyone so blind to the fact?

If you gain weight and lower your body fat %, then you are gaining new muscle while losing fat. Its that simple!

 

[MUSTANG_18]

Well put Lawnsaver. If you have a good diet I think it is very possable to gain a little muscle mass while decresing body fat. I hope to do that on my cycle starting Very soon.

M18

M18

 

[Beezers]

You arn't loosing fat while gaining weight. You % will change because it's a ratio a fat mass to lean body mass. If lean body mass goes up the ratio is altered and the percentage of body weight that is fat is now less representative of total body weight. BF% can go down without actually loosing body fat. The more LBM you have the less percentage your body weight is derived from fat mass. This fools too many people and they preach you can loose fat while all out bulking. You can drop BF%, however you don't actually drop body fat. It's like spreading a pond over the surface area of a lake...The water will get shallower with the expanded surface area EVEN though the actual amount of water is unchanged.

 

[BigAndy69]

I am actually starting a program where I will be attempting to build muscle an lose BF at the same time. This explains it in detail

I start on monday.

 

[The Bionic Man]

Originally posted by lawnsaver : My last cycle I gained 13lbs, while losing 6% bf. That is a 23lbs lean mass gain.



Care to share that cycle with us?

 

[lawnsaver]

I totally disagree. I lost an inch on my waist. Why? because I lost fat in that area. Did it go somewhere else on my body? No, I lost it. I gained muscle while losing fat. Why is it that people cant understand this?


My abs started showing, muscle were more defined. These are signs of fat loss. At the same time I gained weight.

Again, I lost fat while gaining muscle.

 

[Vageta]

Let's get things straight. Using anabolics it is possible to do both and I don't think people will argue that fact. However doing it naturally is a different story. Bodyfat % is also subjective when figuring out true LBM. Take your bodyfat % then figure out your LBM. Now drink a gallon of water and redo the the bodyfat measurements and LBM calculation. Guess what, you just gained 5lbs of LBM. This is so insanely easy to understand yet most people love to believe that all LBM is muscle. This is why creatine gives people false hopes. Yes it makes you stronger however that weight is temporary(that new strength can help build new muscle mass no doubt). You WILL lose some water weight when stopping creatine though skin folds will probably remain the same so your effective LBM measurement will drop. So saying you lost 5 lbs of muscle when stopping creatine would be stupid. In fact your muscles mass is the same as when you were on creatine, just the amount of water stored in them is lower.

Remember that fact kiddies. This is why the people that get so excited when they gain 10 lbs the first week of a D-bol cycle look so stupid. 8lbs of it is water yet they act as if magic has happened.

 

[lawnsaver]

Originally posted by lawnsaver : My last cycle I gained 13lbs, while losing 6% bf. That is a 23lbs lean mass gain.



Care to share that cycle with us?

500mg of aratest for 10 weeks, with 200mg each of eq and deca for 10 weeks. At week 5 I added t3 at 50mcg ed with cardio. It wasnt that tough

 

[solidj55]

I am by no means an expert on gear,diets,or anything of that nature but I do have a lot of knowledge on these from reading,experience,and observations. I have a friend who uses a lot gear and competes in bodybuilding. Myself I am a powerlifter so I just try to achieve strength without all the ups and down in weight. Anyway, back to my friend. He is LARGE!!! He has one several shows and only does two cycles a year. His cycles are long and somewhat harsh to some of you but he is very experienced. Half of each cycle is dedicated to mass and half to cutting. Even when bulking he keeps a relatively low bodyfat. An example of his cycle and calorie intake would like this.

Gear:
HGH-8 ius/day Weeks1-16(Monday through Friday)
Insulin-10 to 15 ius/day weeks 1-16(Monday-Friday)
Sostenon750mgs/week Weeks 1-12
Test Suspension-100mgs Eod Weeks 1-6
Dianabol-30 to 40mgs/day Weeks 1-4
Equipoise-600mgs/week Weeks 1-16
Winstrol-100mgs/day Weeks 5-10
Finaject-76mgs/day weeks 7-12
Masteron-100mgs EOD weeks 11-14
Halotestin-20mgs/day weeks11-14
Primobolan-400mgs/week Weeks15-24
Anavar-40mgs/day 17-24
HCG-5000iu's Weeks 15 and 16
Clomid-100mgs/day Weeks 25 and 26 and 50mgs/day week 27
He also uses Arimidex at 1/2 tab per day all the way through and 20mgs of Nolvadex ever other day all the way through. He uses T-3, Clenbuterol,and DNP somewhere in there but I have no idea what doses, when or where he uses it.
His calorie intake for about the first 6 weeks is about 5000, then next 6 weeks is about 4000, then down to three then down to 2000, sometimes as low as 1000 in the end. He usually gains 5 to 10 pounds of lean mass while dropping bodyfat down to 5% or lower. Ive seen him as heavy as 300lbs and about 12% bodyfat and drop down to 285lbs and 6 or 7 % bodyfat. Thats just what I have seen and its done all in one cycle.

 

[bigpun]

It is possible. My last cycle I gained 13lbs, while losing 6% bf. That is a 23lbs lean mass gain. I lost fat while gaining muscle. Why is everyone so black and white on this subject? Everyone is trying to be so scientific, it funny. Every cuttinig cycle achieves this goal. You lose fat while gaining new muscle. Why is everyone so blind to the fact?

If you gain weight and lower your body fat %, then you are gaining new muscle while losing fat. Its that simple!

It is possible because I've seen it happen to myself without gear, when I first started lifting hard. In a couple of months I added about 10lbs of muscle and because of the increase in my metabolism (as a result of the new muscle), my body started going after my fat stores for energy. I also lost about 1 and half inches around the waist. I just don't think it happens very often though because since then anytime I have added muscle my waist size has not decreased. Bottom line, it is possible.

 

[lawnsaver]

Bump for Huck or some more Vets!

I dont want scientific explanations, I want real world experiences.

I know its possible. I have real world experience. My own!

 

[badgermilk]

Razor I have been reading the same things! I want to gain lean muscle mass and loose fat at the same time. I have read so many things that contradict each other in regards to bulking and cutting. After the reading that I have done I decided to take the clen & cytomel in lower doses then are usually taken because, (1) I felt safer this way (2) taking the two together are going to be much stronger then just taking one, so I shouldn't need to take as much of each one. I decided to go with 2 of the 3 AS's listed because (1) they are the least androgenic of all steroids and the Strength, Mass, and Weight gains are some of the best (highest quality gains) with the ability being extremely high of keeping the gains, because of what I read about taking a steroid that get's in the system very quickly (they are also the steroids that you loose most of the gains because the gains will not be as of high quality). Deca, Primo and Dyno are not the most anabolic you can take, but I also took into consideration that the Clenbuterol will enhance the anabolic effects of the steroids. The reason I want to do two is because one I am just wanting to minus the effects of the Cytomel as far as protein metabolization. If cytomel can't get enough protein from your diet it will look towards the muscles to get the protein it needs, thus taking away from your hard earned gains. And one of the biggest reasons for the AS's I chose is that the side effects are equal to almost none or at least none that are irreversible. I feel like I can gain the quality muscle I want and loose the unwanted fat buy doing this cycle. I am about to start a cycle that looks like this.....

I would be interested in hearing what other people think of my logic from the above......I also included a chart that shows how much of the clen and cytomel I will be taking on a daily and weekly basis...

I hope to gain 10-12lbs of lean muscle from this cycle... eating high carbs in the morning and a ton of protein through out the rest of the day...

Deca....400mg/week.....10 weeks

Dyno....400mg/week.....10 weeks
or
Primo...400mg/week.....10 weeks

Liquidex..1/2 mg EOD...10 weeks

Clenbuterol........(chart below)

Cytomel.............(chart below)

Clomid..100mg/day....starting at the end of cycle

Clenbuterol 1 week on, 1 week off
10 week cycle
Days 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 # Pills/week

Week # 1-10 left hand column

1 1 2 3 4 5 5 5 25
2 off off off off off off off
3 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 35
4 off off off off off off off
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 35
6 off off off off off off off
7 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 35
8 off off off off off off off
9 5 5 5 4 3 2 1 25
10 off off off off off off off

TOTAL 155 tabs

************************************************

Calomel
6 week cycle
Days 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 #Pills/week

Week # 1-6 left hand column

1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 12
2 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 26
3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 28
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 28
5 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 26
6 3 2 2 2 1 1 1 12

TOTAL 132 tabs

 

[Goering]

My friends, it's possibly gain muscle while lose fat, I'm doing it. Please all you read the article "Massive Eating" in www.testosterone.net, use the search option (however, I'm eating a little less than tha author recommend, about 200 cal. less)

Regards.

 

[razer2000]

And the debate rages on....

 

[badgermilk]

?????????

Could one of the more experienced (cycle wise) board members tell me there opinion on the cycle I listed above?

Also the Deca is going to be 500mg/week not 400, because I weigh about 250lbs




bump....

 

[cockdezl]

The answer to this question is "Yes, one can gain muscle size while losing body fat". A study was done on women who did resistance training while on a low calorie diet. At the end of the study, muscle examinations showed hypertrophy in the trained muscle groups, with a reduction in body fat levels. The authors hypothesized that the body simply catabolized other body protein stores (liver and untrained muscle groups).

Am J Clin Nutr 1993 Oct;58(4):561-5

"Muscle hypertrophy with large-scale weight loss and resistance training."

Donnelly JE, Sharp T, Houmard J, Carlson MG, Hill JO, Whatley JE, Israel RG.

Human Performance Laboratory, University of Nebraska at Kearney 68849.

The combined effects of exercise and energy restriction on changes in body fat and fat-free mass (FFM) are controversial. This study was conducted to determine whether muscle hypertrophy is possible during weight loss. Fourteen obese females received a 3360-kJ/d liquid diet for 90 d. Seven subjects received a weight training (WT) regimen and seven subjects remained sedentary (C). Biopsy samples were obtained from the vastus lateralis muscle at baseline and after 90 d of treatment. The average weight loss over the 90-d period was 16 kg with approximately 24% of the weight loss from FFM and 76% from fat. The amount and composition of the weight loss did not differ between WT and C groups. The cross-sectional area of slow twitch and fast twitch fibers was unchanged by treatment in C subjects but significantly increased in WT subjects. It appears that weight training can produce hypertrophy in skeletal muscle during severe energy restriction and large-scale weight loss.

 

[lawnsaver]

Thats for back up guys! Its not brain surgery. It happens all the time.

 

[MUSTANG_18]

Very good info Cockdezl, thanks

M18

 

[razer2000]

I'd like to see Beezers and Serge's take on the above study.

 

[Goering]

cockdezl:

The study doesn't say if the women were untrained previously. If they were, then yes, you can gain LBM y lose fat easly, else, it's very dificult if you don't combine the macronutrients and the calories in a precisse manner.

Regards.