Dual Factor Training Question

[bdens12673]

I'm on my first week of the unloading phase of Dual Factor Training and I was just curious if it's normal to feel completely burnt out come this point of it? I did 2 weeks of the loading phase and by the end of my 2nd week I could definitely feel my body wearing down. I actually had to take an extra day off this week because I was feeling so weak and tired.

I've been training for close to 10 years and have always worked one to two body parts per workout giving each body part a week to rest as my body seems to take a while to recover, so this is definitely a total shock to my body but I do really like it and can feel the change in just this first cycle.

 

[JL_204]

im going through the same thing, madcow told me its totally normal and its a part of "loading". He also suggested to do the 2x per week protocol for deloading the first time around because of the lack of conditioning to this type of training.

 

[bdens12673]

thanks man, it's good to know that it's not just me. How are you liking it so far?

 

[Madcow2]

I'm on my first week of the unloading phase of Dual Factor Training and I was just curious if it's normal to feel completely burnt out come this point of it? I did 2 weeks of the loading phase and by the end of my 2nd week I could definitely feel my body wearing down. I actually had to take an extra day off this week because I was feeling so weak and tired.

I've been training for close to 10 years and have always worked one to two body parts per workout giving each body part a week to rest as my body seems to take a while to recover, so this is definitely a total shock to my body but I do really like it and can feel the change in just this first cycle.

You should feel pretty fatigued but that might be a bit much. Was this DFHT? The program from Matt Reynolds?

If you jumped straight into that at full blown pace from a bodypart 1x per week program, it's probably overwhelming you. Someone mentioned to me the Core article has less volume as Matt scaled it back so as to make it more usable by people new to dual factor style programs. Basically what I cut/pasted and the word doc are different from Core magazine. You might check that out and see what he cut down. The core links to part 1 and 2 are in this thread at the top: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4844603&postcount=423

Basically, although you might become better conditioned over time and be able to accomodate that kind of volume, it might be a too much right away and require some time.

Not sure if I got that right but I hope it helps.

 

[bdens12673]

Thanks Madcow, I have been doing the workouts that Matt listed in Core magazine. My body DEFINITELY is not used to doing so many exercises in on session. The first week I felt fine, but the 2nd week just wore me down. I have really been trying to take it easy during this unloading week, a bit more than what is recommended just because I don't want to overtrain my body and I know it will take a little time to get used to it. I just wasn't sure if I should be feeling it as much as I am but it seems that this is normal.

i'm so thankful for getting this info though as I think it will push me to the level I would like to get to.

 

[JL_204]

thanks man, it's good to know that it's not just me. How are you liking it so far?

Im loving this type of training. Its something new and fresh that actually works.
Ill never go back to typical BBer splits.

BTW most of my friends think im an idiot for training this way, they just cant see outside of FLEX mag type workouts. They'll be on the bandwagon once they see how far ahead of them i get.

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks Madcow, I have been doing the workouts that Matt listed in Core magazine. My body DEFINITELY is not used to doing so many exercises in on session. The first week I felt fine, but the 2nd week just wore me down. I have really been trying to take it easy during this unloading week, a bit more than what is recommended just because I don't want to overtrain my body and I know it will take a little time to get used to it. I just wasn't sure if I should be feeling it as much as I am but it seems that this is normal.

i'm so thankful for getting this info though as I think it will push me to the level I would like to get to.

from what I recall that program is designed for 2-3 or maybe 4 weeks at a time. You can't load heavily for more than 2-3 weeks. Most can't truly load at their capacity for more than 2. The Starr 5x5 really only pushes hard in the final 2 weeks, the 2 or 4 weeks before are mainly accomodation.

You'll gradually improve. Just a big initial shock for you.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

As people get more accustomed to DF training, madcow, would you suggest they only use two weeks of real heavy, actual loading during the volume phase, in order to make cycles go quicker?

 

[blut wump]

thanks man, it's good to know that it's not just me. How are you liking it so far?

The first time I ran though the madcow 5x5 and hit the deloading phase I was falling asleep at the drop of a hat. Since then I've had a loading phase which was curtailed after three weeks and a full loading phase which I'm currently in the deload from. I do seem to be less drained already this time through but that first one was highly soporific.

 

[Madcow2]

As people get more accustomed to DF training, madcow, would you suggest they only use two weeks of real heavy, actual loading during the volume phase, in order to make cycles go quicker?

In regards to the 5x5 there really are only 2 weeks of heavy loading. You can try experimenting some. Even something like running the volume phase for 4 weeks, using the 2x deload for 1-2 weeks, another 2-3 weeks of volume, 2x deload, and then an intensity phase or some combination. Something useful - providing the exercises aren't changing too much, would be to calculate weekly loads for working sets and see how they ladder. I was thumbing through Bompa's periodization book at Barnes and Noble the other day. Might be worth looking through for someone more interested in this.

 

[ziggyziggy]

In regards to the 5x5 there really are only 2 weeks of heavy loading. You can try experimenting some. Even something like running the volume phase for 4 weeks, using the 2x deload for 1-2 weeks, another 2-3 weeks of volume, 2x deload, and then an intensity phase or some combination. Something useful - providing the exercises aren't changing too much, would be to calculate weekly loads for working sets and see how they ladder. I was thumbing through Bompa's periodization book at Barnes and Noble the other day. Might be worth looking through for someone more interested in this.

I just bought that book last week, and it is definately chock full of excellent information. It will literally walk you through the theory of periodization to actually putting together a program. Can't recommend it enough.

I'm planning to start a 5 X 5 program after a conditioning period for my lower body once I get this cast off.

Zig

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I think I'm going to try an abbreviated volume phase, using two weeks of the 'real loading', and see what I come out with. I dunno, it might not be enough "overreaching" to cause a rebound effect.

 

[blut wump]

I think I'm going to try an abbreviated volume phase, using two weeks of the 'real loading', and see what I come out with. I dunno, it might not be enough "overreaching" to cause a rebound effect.

I suspect that you'll likely encounter a problem of conditioning.

One of the downsides of standard periodization is that you are in one of three stages: loading; deloading; intensity. You can't jump into the deep end of either loading or intensity without some lead-in. It'll be interesting to see how you get on but I reckon that aiming for less than three weeks with the first one being to acclimatize you to the volume will inhibit your ability to load.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

It may, but don't more advanced programs focus on actual loading for shorter periods? I thought the first two weeks in this 5x5 variation were more to let people adjust to the training, and the 3/4 'record weeks' were the key to the loading phase.

 

[blut wump]

The first two weeks are a slide-in but I've not seen any that take the loading phase lower than three weeks. The madcow 5x5 is (easy, medium, hard, harder) and a more advanced one would be (medium, hard, harder). I'm just not sure that someone can jump straight into (hard, harder) without doing reasonably high volume work already, effectively giving an earlier period of loading and slide-in. There's also that 3:1 fatigue-fitness ratio to factor into any periodization program.

That was one of the criticisms of periodization which led to the development of conjugate training, such as Westside. Your body is in one of the three states of loading/deloading/intensity. The conjugate training tries to juggle all three with some GPP thrown in for good measure. At least, that's how I interpret it.

It'd be a good experiment to run and you'd probably know in week1 whether you'd be able to be hitting or exceeding relevant max lifts for the high volume without straining something. It might be reasonable to run a sequence of load/deload/reload of 3/1/2 followed by a slide into intensity. Interesting.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

There's also that 3:1 fatigue-fitness ratio to factor into any periodization program.

I'm not familiar with this. Care to explain?

 

[blut wump]

Easiest if I throw a link at you:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

You might have read it already. It came up in the main 5x5 thread since someone had written an article and used the madcow 5x5 as his sample program. It's a very clear exposition of the why and how dual-factor works.

 

[Madcow2]

You can do it but generally you can't do it at the beginning of a totally new training cycle - meaning you aren't just going to step in and start pounding at your best. You could create a laddered series of mesocycles where gradually the loading time is decreased until you hit 2-3 weeks. 4L / 2UL / 3L / 1UL / 2L / 1UL might be interesting for you to try. Calculate your weekly load and make sure it is ladding upward as you go with the best week of the last phase better than the previous loading phase's final week. See how you handle it with 3 weeks first and make absolutely sure you are using the 2x per week deload protocol. If you are making good strength gains in a valid hypertrophy range I wouldn't screw with it too much. Also, you might find yourself burning out on something like this so if performance starts to drop, something has to change pretty fast. There is also the ability to remove the pyramids in favor of another 5x5 day for all lifts. Just some random thoughts that may or may not appeal to you.