Drunken style Kung Fu vs Kyokushin

[Yarg!]

http://s12.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3C32IIQ7N4J3R2Z4R360GV1U7K
So sad.. its kind of funny!

 

[Djimbe]

Wow . Its odd - the Druken idiot had MANY chances to make contact , but for some damned fool reason ELECTED not to , even though the other guy was kicking him in the head .

Moron .

 

[Kane Fan]

you find a lot of stupid people in the world
occationally they also practice martial arts : o )
I always heard Kyokushinkai, is Kyokushin the same thing shortened or a different style?

 

[Big Rick Rock]

I seen the full length version of that. There were about 3 fights total.
The Drunken KF guys sucked ass... You figure if you are going to do a demostration like that you would bring your best fighters to showcase on T.V. If those guys are the best fighters in that Dojo, I feel sad for them.



-BRR

 

[Big_Joe]

You have to realize that it was a setup from the getgo. A Japanese dojo, a Japanese TV show against a Chinese martial art. I wonder if they even told the kids that did the Chinese art it was going to be full contact.

 

[Kane Fan]

if not after the first or second shot I imagine they figured it out

 

[Big Rick Rock]

You have to realize that it was a setup from the getgo. A Japanese dojo, a Japanese TV show against a Chinese martial art. I wonder if they even told the kids that did the Chinese art it was going to be full contact.

I'm not sure how it could have been set up... I mean, if one of my gym buddies goes before me and I see him get kicked in the face, I'll know it is for real when I get up against the guy I'm fighting.
I really think a lot of the Kung Fu stuff works great in theory but fails in practice. As i understand it, the whole method in "drunken" style Kung Fu over the 5-Animals is that Drunken style requires you to shift your body weight continously, so your opponent can never know where your center of balance is, and where the next strike is coming from... Should have worked great against the Karate(in theory) guys who have learned (thru real competition) to read when an opponent is going to throw a kick by the tale signs of balance shifting before the strike, they should have been really confused by the KF guys and gotten hit repeatedly... Didn't happen that way at all.



BTW- This is my observation on this video alone. I'm not ragging on CMA, I'm sure there is a lot of good stuff in CMAs that was not represented well by the Drunken Kunfuy guys. This is not an invitation for djimbe to grace me with a 6 paragraph response... I'll tell you right now dude, I'm not even going to read past the first paragraph.



-BRR

 

[MikeMartial]

This is not an invitation for djimbe to grace me with a 6 paragraph response... I'll tell you right now dude, I'm not even going to read past the first paragraph.

-BRR

Damn fine idea on the disclaimer! As I was reading, I was thinking "Oh man, I can see a long-ass response coming......"

 

[Yarg!]

Damn fine idea on the disclaimer! As I was reading, I was thinking "Oh man, I can see a long-ass response coming......"

x3 LOL

 

[Kane Fan]

I kinda like Drunken Style's looks
but I think it would take longer to make it effective then Kyo

 

[dhuff1500]

It looked like the drunken-style martial artist knew his form well but didn't have that much sparring practice. Drunken style looks pretty sweet tho.

 

[DieselGunz]

Damn that was not exactly text book there, dude got his ass kicked

 

[Kane Fan]

it was text book
just not for the KF guy

 

[Big_Joe]

I'm not sure how it could have been set up... I mean, if one of my gym buddies goes before me and I see him get kicked in the face, I'll know it is for real when I get up against the guy I'm fighting.
I really think a lot of the Kung Fu stuff works great in theory but fails in practice. As i understand it, the whole method in "drunken" style Kung Fu over the 5-Animals is that Drunken style requires you to shift your body weight continously, so your opponent can never know where your center of balance is, and where the next strike is coming from... Should have worked great against the Karate(in theory) guys who have learned (thru real competition) to read when an opponent is going to throw a kick by the tale signs of balance shifting before the strike, they should have been really confused by the KF guys and gotten hit repeatedly... Didn't happen that way at all.



BTW- This is my observation on this video alone. I'm not ragging on CMA, I'm sure there is a lot of good stuff in CMAs that was not represented well by the Drunken Kunfuy guys. This is not an invitation for djimbe to grace me with a 6 paragraph response... I'll tell you right now dude, I'm not even going to read past the first paragraph.



-BRR

Here's a history lesson for you. Karate means Chinese Boxing. The Japanese did not have te styles they had jutsu styles. It wasn't until the nineteen twenties and the rise of the militaristic culture in Japan that the charactor was changed from Chinese fist to empty fist. Empty and Chinese have the same sound but different characters in Japanese. So the argument about CMA and JMA is bs from the gitgo. ( You can stop reading now or you can continue and learn something)

The forms that went to Okinawa are the lowest, and therefor the easiest, forms in the Chinese family of martial techniques. These are the external systems. And by the way external and internal means originating from outside of China or inside of China. Buddhist forms are external, Taoist forms are internal. Buddhism came from India and is therefor external. These external forms were what was taught to the Okinawans that went to Fukien to to learn how to fight so they could defeat the Japanese invaders. But alas by the time they got any good Okinawa had become Japanified. In the twenties The Japanese military was drafting Okinawans and noticed that some of these guys were in a lot better shape then the others. They did some investigation and found that they were practicing Chinese Boxing, Kara te. They thought this was a great idea for soldiers. So they rounded up all the teachers they could find and made them high school PE teachers. This is how Chojun Miyagi became a high school PE teacher. They then took a bunch of techniques from the styles in Okinawa to Korea where they were also drafting soldiers and Tae Kwon Do was born.

Mas Oyama was a Korean that began his studies in Chinese kempo, in Korea. He went to Japan and began studying Kara te under Funakoshi. Funakoshi had studied some Karate in Okinawa. Went back to Japan and opened a school, he needed to make some money so he could keep practicing. Mas Oyama started his own version of Chinese boxing and called it kyokushin. One of the things that they did in Okinawa in teaching children is the fist placement. When teaching children the fist is held at the waist so not to much power can be generated so the kids wouldn't hurt each other. Adults were taught to hold the fist up at rib level. The style of karate that Funakoshi taught holds the fist at the waist. This is were the different fist placements from the Japanese styles and Okinawan styles came about.

Mas Oyama was very good. Not because his style was so good but because he trained very hard and very long. He pushed himself beyond what most people are willing to do. And that's the key point. It's not the style it's how hard you train. If you look at the kid that was doing the drunken fist, yea right, in the video he looks like a biafran refugee! He has no muscles at all!! How hard do you think he trains?? The other guy had strength. You can't see his body because he was wearing Japanes underwear. For those that don't know a gi is Japanese underwear. You wore a kimono over your gi, so as not to damage your kimono when you trained you took it off and just wore your gi.

What we see today is the commercialization of martial arts. To be any good at the higher arts, such as drunken fist, dragon fist or the supreme ultimate fist takes a very long time. An unbelievable amount of work and dedication beyond what the average person, or above average person, is willing or able to do. But you know these old guys from China and Japan need to make some money so they water it down and sell it to youngsters that grew up on Bruce Lee movies. Hey just like the movies, oh boy. As a result we have martial artist that have the grace of a train wreck. The higher forms of martial arts are graceful arts. Today martial arts is at it's lowest level. And yes if you get real strong you can make your hands into bludgeons and do some damage with them but you won't have any grace and it will be the lowest level of "art."

 

[Yarg!]

Here's a history lesson for you. Karate means Chinese Boxing. The Japanese did not have te styles they had jutsu styles. It wasn't until the nineteen twenties and the rise of the militaristic culture in Japan that the charactor was changed from Chinese fist to empty fist. Empty and Chinese have the same sound but different characters in Japanese. So the argument about CMA and JMA is bs from the gitgo. ( You can stop reading now or you can continue and learn something)

The forms that went to Okinawa are the lowest, and therefor the easiest, forms in the Chinese family of martial techniques. These are the external systems. And by the way external and internal means originating from outside of China or inside of China. Buddhist forms are external, Taoist forms are internal. Buddhism came from India and is therefor external. These external forms were what was taught to the Okinawans that went to Fukien to to learn how to fight so they could defeat the Japanese invaders. But alas by the time they got any good Okinawa had become Japanified. In the twenties The Japanese military was drafting Okinawans and noticed that some of these guys were in a lot better shape then the others. They did some investigation and found that they were practicing Chinese Boxing, Kara te. They thought this was a great idea for soldiers. So they rounded up all the teachers they could find and made them high school PE teachers. This is how Chojun Miyagi became a high school PE teacher. They then took a bunch of techniques from the styles in Okinawa to Korea where they were also drafting soldiers and Tae Kwon Do was born.

Mas Oyama was a Korean that began his studies in Chinese kempo, in Korea. He went to Japan and began studying Kara te under Funakoshi. Funakoshi had studied some Karate in Okinawa. Went back to Japan and opened a school, he needed to make some money so he could keep practicing. Mas Oyama started his own version of Chinese boxing and called it kyokushin. One of the things that they did in Okinawa in teaching children is the fist placement. When teaching children the fist is held at the waist so not to much power can be generated so the kids wouldn't hurt each other. Adults were taught to hold the fist up at rib level. The style of karate that Funakoshi taught holds the fist at the waist. This is were the different fist placements from the Japanese styles and Okinawan styles came about.

Mas Oyama was very good. Not because his style was so good but because he trained very hard and very long. He pushed himself beyond what most people are willing to do. And that's the key point. It's not the style it's how hard you train. If you look at the kid that was doing the drunken fist, yea right, in the video he looks like a biafran refugee! He has no muscles at all!! How hard do you think he trains?? The other guy had strength. You can't see his body because he was wearing Japanes underwear. For those that don't know a gi is Japanese underwear. You wore a kimono over your gi, so as not to damage your kimono when you trained you took it off and just wore your gi.

What we see today is the commercialization of martial arts. To be any good at the higher arts, such as drunken fist, dragon fist or the supreme ultimate fist takes a very long time. An unbelievable amount of work and dedication beyond what the average person, or above average person, is willing or able to do. But you know these old guys from China and Japan need to make some money so they water it down and sell it to youngsters that grew up on Bruce Lee movies. Hey just like the movies, oh boy. As a result we have martial artist that have the grace of a train wreck. The higher forms of martial arts are graceful arts. Today martial arts is at it's lowest level. And yes if you get real strong you can make your hands into bludgeons and do some damage with them but you won't have any grace and it will be the lowest level of "art."

Djimbe's alter??

 

[MikeMartial]

Well, I guess you got your long ass response, BRR.

Just not from Djimbe

 

[Ianhockey91]

Today martial arts is at it's lowest level. And yes if you get real strong you can make your hands into bludgeons and do some damage with them but you won't have any grace and it will be the lowest level of "art."

Lowest level of art, and highest level of winning.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Here's a history lesson for you. Karate means Chinese Boxing. The Japanese did not have te styles they had jutsu styles. It wasn't until the nineteen twenties and the rise of the militaristic culture in Japan that the charactor was changed from Chinese fist to empty fist. Empty and Chinese have the same sound but different characters in Japanese. So the argument about CMA and JMA is bs from the gitgo. ( You can stop reading now or you can continue and learn something)

The forms that went to Okinawa are the lowest, and therefor the easiest, forms in the Chinese family of martial techniques. These are the external systems. And by the way external and internal means originating from outside of China or inside of China. Buddhist forms are external, Taoist forms are internal. Buddhism came from India and is therefor external. These external forms were what was taught to the Okinawans that went to Fukien to to learn how to fight so they could defeat the Japanese invaders. But alas by the time they got any good Okinawa had become Japanified. In the twenties The Japanese military was drafting Okinawans and noticed that some of these guys were in a lot better shape then the others. They did some investigation and found that they were practicing Chinese Boxing, Kara te. They thought this was a great idea for soldiers. So they rounded up all the teachers they could find and made them high school PE teachers. This is how Chojun Miyagi became a high school PE teacher. They then took a bunch of techniques from the styles in Okinawa to Korea where they were also drafting soldiers and Tae Kwon Do was born.

Mas Oyama was a Korean that began his studies in Chinese kempo, in Korea. He went to Japan and began studying Kara te under Funakoshi. Funakoshi had studied some Karate in Okinawa. Went back to Japan and opened a school, he needed to make some money so he could keep practicing. Mas Oyama started his own version of Chinese boxing and called it kyokushin. One of the things that they did in Okinawa in teaching children is the fist placement. When teaching children the fist is held at the waist so not to much power can be generated so the kids wouldn't hurt each other. Adults were taught to hold the fist up at rib level. The style of karate that Funakoshi taught holds the fist at the waist. This is were the different fist placements from the Japanese styles and Okinawan styles came about.

Mas Oyama was very good. Not because his style was so good but because he trained very hard and very long. He pushed himself beyond what most people are willing to do. And that's the key point. It's not the style it's how hard you train. If you look at the kid that was doing the drunken fist, yea right, in the video he looks like a biafran refugee! He has no muscles at all!! How hard do you think he trains?? The other guy had strength. You can't see his body because he was wearing Japanes underwear. For those that don't know a gi is Japanese underwear. You wore a kimono over your gi, so as not to damage your kimono when you trained you took it off and just wore your gi.

What we see today is the commercialization of martial arts. To be any good at the higher arts, such as drunken fist, dragon fist or the supreme ultimate fist takes a very long time. An unbelievable amount of work and dedication beyond what the average person, or above average person, is willing or able to do. But you know these old guys from China and Japan need to make some money so they water it down and sell it to youngsters that grew up on Bruce Lee movies. Hey just like the movies, oh boy. As a result we have martial artist that have the grace of a train wreck. The higher forms of martial arts are graceful arts. Today martial arts is at it's lowest level. And yes if you get real strong you can make your hands into bludgeons and do some damage with them but you won't have any grace and it will be the lowest level of "art."

Great post and awesome history lesson... In conclusion, traditional CMA styles take wayyyy too much time and a lot of dedication before you can become effective at it. SOOOOO Instructors have watered it down so they can make a buck out of teaching it to youngsters, who get their ass handed to them on National T.V by some of the Sportier, less pretty martial arts. For example, the Video we just watched, or all of the Kung Fuy, Cho my Sui and Take My Dough artist that got Pwoned in the first few UFC's and Vale Tudo competitions...

As far as Grace and "A thing of beauty" I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you may consider as a beautiful martial arts movement may be different from what I consider a graceful move.
Personally, I think Arlovsky's uppercut, Crocop's roundhouse and Shogun's knees are things of beauty, pure art and grace.





-BRR

 

[Yarg!]

Great post and awesome history lesson... In conclusion, traditional CMA styles take wayyyy too much time and a lot of dedication before you can become effective at it. SOOOOO Instructors have watered it down so they can make a buck out of teaching it to youngsters, who get their ass handed to them on National T.V by some of the Sportier, less pretty martial arts. For example, the Video we just watched, or all of the Kung Fuy, Cho my Sui and Take My Dough artist that got Pwoned in the first few UFC's and Vale Tudo competitions...

As far as Grace and "A thing of beauty" I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you may consider as a beautiful martial arts movement may be different from what I consider a graceful move.
Personally, I think Arlovsky's uppercut, Crocop's roundhouse and Shogun's knees are things of beauty, pure art and grace.





-BRR

Maybe inorder to stop 5 Animal Kung Fu's short comings they should add like 2 or 3 more animals.. or 8.. or 37.. fuck just add all the animals that have fur into Kung Fu. I mean with 67 animals under your arsenal, atleast ONE of them MUST know how to SPRAWL, right?? HAR HAR

 

[Kane Fan]

Well, I guess you got your long ass response, BRR.

Just not from Djimbe

often times when people don't actually have a point they try to hide the fact by typing so much that you just assume you lost their point
that guys post is an example of such, Djimbe's posts are far superior to the above, while I often don't agree with everything or even most of what he says I prefer his actual points to a history lesson that does nothing to counter the point one is trying to make...
so his general 'point' was that karate comes from china? ok, 85 years ago Karate came from China, it has evolved
hence, Japanese vs Chinese martial arts is VERY much a fair comparison to make
tho in the above one good point was actually made, it is about how you train more then the style you use
but that point is an imperfect one, no matter how hard you train BJJ, your shit in the Boxing Ring and vice versa
that's the bottom line

 

[Kane Fan]

Great post and awesome history lesson... In conclusion, traditional CMA styles take wayyyy too much time and a lot of dedication before you can become effective at it. SOOOOO Instructors have watered it down so they can make a buck out of teaching it to youngsters, who get their ass handed to them on National T.V by some of the Sportier, less pretty martial arts. For example, the Video we just watched, or all of the Kung Fuy, Cho my Sui and Take My Dough artist that got Pwoned in the first few UFC's and Vale Tudo competitions...

As far as Grace and "A thing of beauty" I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you may consider as a beautiful martial arts movement may be different from what I consider a graceful move.
Personally, I think Arlovsky's uppercut, Crocop's roundhouse and Shogun's knees are things of beauty, pure art and grace.





-BRR

I love the look of a good low kick
also what about the grace of an Akidoka? or a Judoka?
or do they lack grace because they are Japanese arts and not Chinese arts?
(question to the cma guy not you)

 

[Kane Fan]

I personally think that when you shoot in on someone and GnP them
that makes me think of a Bear
so we can dub Freestyle/Greco guys that GnP Bear Style Kung Fuists
tho actually ther is an official Bear style of KungFu I think
it evolved from Tiger I believe

 

[Djimbe]

I'm not sure how it could have been set up... I mean, if one of my gym buddies goes before me and I see him get kicked in the face, I'll know it is for real when I get up against the guy I'm fighting.
I really think a lot of the Kung Fu stuff works great in theory but fails in practice. As i understand it, the whole method in "drunken" style Kung Fu over the 5-Animals is that Drunken style requires you to shift your body weight continously, so your opponent can never know where your center of balance is, and where the next strike is coming from... Should have worked great against the Karate(in theory) guys who have learned (thru real competition) to read when an opponent is going to throw a kick by the tale signs of balance shifting before the strike, they should have been really confused by the KF guys and gotten hit repeatedly... Didn't happen that way at all.

Heres your <1phg reply ...

Nothing to do with "Kung Fu" , "Theory" OR "Practice ... in the ways you put them . The fact is you had it right from Jump , they go to a crap school amd if they were too stupid to fight back after the second REAL kick was thrown they deserve the Beatings they got . All that "Notr knowing WHere your COG" crap is GREAT but you haveto actually THROW HARD STRIKES at some point ! Did yuou see any REAL hits being Thrown ? I didnt . Until THAT happens , its not even a Fighting Style , just Shadowboxing .

 

[Djimbe]

Mas Oyama was very good. Not because his style was so good but because he trained very hard and very long. He pushed himself beyond what most people are willing to do. And that's the key point. It's not the style it's how hard you train. If you look at the kid that was doing the drunken fist, yea right, in the video he looks like a biafran refugee! He has no muscles at all!! How hard do you think he trains?? The other guy had strength. You can't see his body because he was wearing Japanes underwear. For those that don't know a gi is Japanese underwear. You wore a kimono over your gi, so as not to damage your kimono when you trained you took it off and just wore your gi.

What we see today is the commercialization of martial arts. To be any good at the higher arts, such as drunken fist, dragon fist or the supreme ultimate fist takes a very long time. An unbelievable amount of work and dedication beyond what the average person, or above average person, is willing or able to do. But you know these old guys from China and Japan need to make some money so they water it down and sell it to youngsters that grew up on Bruce Lee movies. Hey just like the movies, oh boy. As a result we have martial artist that have the grace of a train wreck. The higher forms of martial arts are graceful arts. Today martial arts is at it's lowest level. And yes if you get real strong you can make your hands into bludgeons and do some damage with them but you won't have any grace and it will be the lowest level of "art."

Twaddle .

The fact is that you can train like those guys day in and Day out your whole life and youll still suck just like them . Ziujiquan is an External system , and the fact is that if you "train" without HITTING THINGS AND SPARRING PPL then you WILL SUCK ASS , and thats the ONLY thing you will achieve a "Higher Level" of . Assuckery . You could TELL the guy in the vid had NEVER done Contact Sparring or probably even Drilling . HE HAD NO CLUE what a Resisting Opponent was , and thats that . Style , Country of Origin , stupid history facts are all Irrelevant here , when you cant even HIT properly . Basics , ppl . Basics .

 

[Kane Fan]

Twaddle .

The fact is that you can train like those guys day in and Day out your whole life and youll still suck just like them . Ziujiquan is an External system , and the fact is that if you "train" without HITTING THINGS AND SPARRING PPL then you WILL SUCK ASS , and thats the ONLY thing you will achieve a "Higher Level" of . Assuckery . You could TELL the guy in the vid had NEVER done Contact Sparring or probably even Drilling . HE HAD NO CLUE what a Resisting Opponent was , and thats that . Style , Country of Origin , stupid history facts are all Irrelevant here , when you cant even HIT properly . Basics , ppl . Basics .

that's probubly the best shit anyone's ever said

 

[MikeMartial]

The fact is that you can train like those guys day in and Day out your whole life and youll still suck just like them . Ziujiquan is an External system , and the fact is that if you "train" without HITTING THINGS AND SPARRING PPL then you WILL SUCK ASS , and thats the ONLY thing you will achieve a "Higher Level" of . Assuckery . You could TELL the guy in the vid had NEVER done Contact Sparring or probably even Drilling . HE HAD NO CLUE what a Resisting Opponent was , and thats that . Style , Country of Origin , stupid history facts are all Irrelevant here , when you cant even HIT properly . Basics , ppl . Basics .

I second that motion. Well said.

 

[Djimbe]

Well , Im sorry if I had me a little Rant there , but Im SO SICK TO DEATH of hearing about how when ppl Suck its because they do Something Chinese , or something Internal , or whatever . Flat out if your Teacher sucks and is a Charlitain then YOU , in turn , will also suck . Style and Country of Origin be damned .

I wish ppl would go around saying what the REAL PROBLEM is in the stead of blaming shit on Corralary Factors . I mean , Thats the LAZY-assed thinking of an Unfocused Mind ...

And arent MAs SUPPOSED to be about the application of the Mind over the Physical Realm ?

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Well , Im sorry if I had me a little Rant there , but Im SO SICK TO DEATH of hearing about how when ppl Suck its because they do Something Chinese , or something Internal , or whatever . Flat out if your Teacher sucks and is a Charlitain then YOU , in turn , will also suck . Style and Country of Origin be damned .

I wish ppl would go around saying what the REAL PROBLEM is in the stead of blaming shit on Corralary Factors . I mean , Thats the LAZY-assed thinking of an Unfocused Mind ...

And arent MAs SUPPOSED to be about the application of the Mind over the Physical Realm ?

Do you think that since the majority of CMAs have no real set form of competition, it lends itself to be used by Charlitains?

Arts like Kickboxing, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing and BJJ, you can ask your instructor how many fights they had in their carrer or how many tittles/belts they hold. You can also look at the stable of fighters competing out of that gym and see the quality. You have a clear cut way of knowing if they have been there and done that. Where as something like Drunken Style Kung Fu, you have no way of asking your teacher for "proof" of their knowledge.

I think it is the charlitains that have hurt the Chinese arts. I think it is the lack of standardized competition that has allowed people to slap on a Black belt and open a McDojo without really knowing the art. Even the Japanese arts have forms of competition, be it Point-System karate, Judo or hitting eachother on the head with Bamboo swords. Aside from San Shou and MMA, I can't think of any other forms of competitions where CMA practicioners can display and test their skills.




-BRR

 

[Spanky11]

Mas Oyama was a Korean that began his studies in Chinese kempo, in Korea. He went to Japan and began studying Kara te under Funakoshi. Funakoshi had studied some Karate in Okinawa. Went back to Japan and opened a school, he needed to make some money so he could keep practicing. Mas Oyama started his own version of Chinese boxing and called it kyokushin. One of the things that they did in Okinawa in teaching children is the fist placement. When teaching children the fist is held at the waist so not to much power can be generated so the kids wouldn't hurt each other. Adults were taught to hold the fist up at rib level. The style of karate that Funakoshi taught holds the fist at the waist. This is were the different fist placements from the Japanese styles and Okinawan styles came about.
QUOTE]

well, "Here's a history lesson for you", you clearly know nothing about Oyama.

Yes is was Korean, that had emmigrated to Japan as a boy - Tokyo in fact, and not Okinawa.

Yes he trained under Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan), as well as traditional Judo (attaining a 4th dan there) and then studied Goju and got tired of it, and formed his own school called Kyokushinkai. Kyokushin originally was a mixture of the arts he studied, but with a more applicable full contact approach.

Oyama never even lived in Okinawa.

 

[Kane Fan]

ah, the difference between Kyokushinkai and Kyokushin
finally
thanks

 

[Spanky11]

ah, the difference between Kyokushinkai and Kyokushin
finally
thanks

there is no difference, some people call it kyokushin, others call it kyokushinkai.

the "kai" part simply means under one person. old school folks still call it kyokushinkai.

unfortunately now, since the death of mas oyama, the whole organisation is so fractured.

 

[Kane Fan]

I saw a documentary called Fighting Black Kings
it got me interested

 

[Spanky11]

Willy Williams was great!

William Olivier died 2 years ago...the other 2 guys from the us team simply faded away after the first world tournament

 

[Djimbe]

Do you think that since the majority of CMAs have no real set form of competition, it lends itself to be used by Charlitains?

CMA HAS set forms of Competition . Theyre called San Shou , or San Da . It means "Free Hand" and is prety much common of all the CMA systems with MINUTE Variations , such as the time permitted on the Ground to secure a Submission , etc. . Lei Tai is another , and is named after the Platform on wich its held , and has a LOT less Padding , usually . There are also Forms Competitions , Puish Hands Competitions , Sticky Hands competitions , etc . Heck , in China there are entire SCHOOLS devoted ONLY to MA ! Jet Li was a Graduate of one such school .

Arts like Kickboxing, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing and BJJ, you can ask your instructor how many fights they had in their carrer or how many tittles/belts they hold. You can also look at the stable of fighters competing out of that gym and see the quality. You have a clear cut way of knowing if they have been there and done that. Where as something like Drunken Style Kung Fu, you have no way of asking your teacher for "proof" of their knowledge.

I know MANY MT gyms that have plenty of Trophies and Belts , but they hold their own Promotions , and somehow all their fighters end up "winning" no matter HOW much they suck if it goes to a Discision . So you can have a LOT of "Proof" and verry little Pudding , to coin a phrase .

I went to the anual tournament in maryland and it made 2 things VERY Evident :

1) Ppl from MT and TKD schools that try to play by Lei Tai rules get DEMOLISHED for their arrogance . MT ppl in the states tend to think that "MT is A Superior Art" and they get eaten alive because they dont train to the Ruleset . I actually watched ppl gettting shipped off to the Hospital , one after another because they couldnt properly defend themselves against tactics wich they were unused to , typically High-Amplitude Slams . Their Response to "The Clinch" , and tactics like trying to LEAD OFF with Leg Kicks just gets them hurt .

I think it is the charlitains that have hurt the Chinese arts. I think it is the lack of standardized competition that has allowed people to slap on a Black belt and open a McDojo without really knowing the art.

Charlitains hurt ALL arts . And there are PLENTY of McDojos to go around .

Even the Japanese arts have forms of competition, be it Point-System karate, Judo or hitting eachother on the head with Bamboo swords.

Shuai Jiao is the Chinese Equivelant of Judo , and they have Competitions all the time , there are also Weaponssparring , and even the Childeren do Pointfighting in CMA . So far everything ytou have Mentioned Im used to seeing in ONE tourney . Forms Compeditors are Ubiquitous . The form is considered the Source Materioal , and the thing that tewaches you how to hold your Architecture in order to gain your Mechanical Advantage in the first place , maiking it the "Heartbeat" of the system . I have judged , AND Competed in ALL of these things in Tournaments before !

Aside from San Shou and MMA, I can't think of any other forms of competitions where CMA practicioners can display and test their skills.

Well , allow me to Enlighten you -

San Shou/San Da is a Ruleset , not a Style . Lei Tai competitions abound , as do Shuaijiao/Shuai Chiao comps , Push Hands competitions , Forms , Sparring Forms , Weaponsforms and Sparring Weaponsforms ...
its also of note that Most styles are also COMMUNITIES that have in-House tourneys to keep the quality of Judging up to their own standard . A Mantis expert may not know what to look for in a Hung Gar form .

and remembver , these are just a COUPLE of examples , Im not going to list every CMA tourney/event/team in the world for you ...

Seattle ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...sifu.html+John+Leong+Seattle+tournament&hl=en


Tourneys in Great Lakes AND Sao Paulo , Brazil ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...htm+sao+paulo++"+Kung+Fu+Championships"&hl=en

Maryland :
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/tourn/index.shtml

Virginia :
http://www.atoctaijiquan.com/usachamps.htm

North Carolina ...
http://www.mhkungfu.com/Events/Tour...MA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html



Rules :
http://mhkungfu.com/Events/Tournaments/Competitors/CACMA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html
http://69.94.112.159/borntofight/downloads/btf5_app_new.pdf


Teams :
http://www.kungfu.net/gallery.html
http://www.cungle.com/cungle/fighters.html

 

[Big Rick Rock]

CMA HAS set forms of Competition . Theyre called San Shou , or San Da . It means "Free Hand" and is prety much common of all the CMA systems with MINUTE Variations , such as the time permitted on the Ground to secure a Submission , etc. . Lei Tai is another , and is named after the Platform on wich its held , and has a LOT less Padding , usually . There are also Forms Competitions , Puish Hands Competitions , Sticky Hands competitions , etc . Heck , in China there are entire SCHOOLS devoted ONLY to MA ! Jet Li was a Graduate of one such school .



I know MANY MT gyms that have plenty of Trophies and Belts , but they hold their own Promotions , and somehow all their fighters end up "winning" no matter HOW much they suck if it goes to a Discision . So you can have a LOT of "Proof" and verry little Pudding , to coin a phrase .

I went to the anual tournament in maryland and it made 2 things VERY Evident :

1) Ppl from MT and TKD schools that try to play by Lei Tai rules get DEMOLISHED for their arrogance . MT ppl in the states tend to think that "MT is A Superior Art" and they get eaten alive because they dont train to the Ruleset . I actually watched ppl gettting shipped off to the Hospital , one after another because they couldnt properly defend themselves against tactics wich they were unused to , typically High-Amplitude Slams . Their Response to "The Clinch" , and tactics like trying to LEAD OFF with Leg Kicks just gets them hurt .



Charlitains hurt ALL arts . And there are PLENTY of McDojos to go around .



Shuai Jiao is the Chinese Equivelant of Judo , and they have Competitions all the time , there are also Weaponssparring , and even the Childeren do Pointfighting in CMA . So far everything ytou have Mentioned Im used to seeing in ONE tourney . Forms Compeditors are Ubiquitous . The form is considered the Source Materioal , and the thing that tewaches you how to hold your Architecture in order to gain your Mechanical Advantage in the first place , maiking it the "Heartbeat" of the system . I have judged , AND Competed in ALL of these things in Tournaments before !



Well , allow me to Enlighten you -

San Shou/San Da is a Ruleset , not a Style . Lei Tai competitions abound , as do Shuaijiao/Shuai Chiao comps , Push Hands competitions , Forms , Sparring Forms , Weaponsforms and Sparring Weaponsforms ...
its also of note that Most styles are also COMMUNITIES that have in-House tourneys to keep the quality of Judging up to their own standard . A Mantis expert may not know what to look for in a Hung Gar form .

and remembver , these are just a COUPLE of examples , Im not going to list every CMA tourney/event/team in the world for you ...

Seattle ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...sifu.html+John+Leong+Seattle+tournament&hl=en


Tourneys in Great Lakes AND Sao Paulo , Brazil ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...htm+sao+paulo++"+Kung+Fu+Championships"&hl=en

Maryland :
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/tourn/index.shtml

Virginia :
http://www.atoctaijiquan.com/usachamps.htm

North Carolina ...
http://www.mhkungfu.com/Events/Tour...MA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html



Rules :
http://mhkungfu.com/Events/Tournaments/Competitors/CACMA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html
http://69.94.112.159/borntofight/downloads/btf5_app_new.pdf


Teams :
http://www.kungfu.net/gallery.html
http://www.cungle.com/cungle/fighters.html

Wow, great info.

Here is a question for ya. With so many great MA schools and top notch instructors in China. Why do you think there aren't any Chinese MMA fighters making an impact in either pride or the UFC? I mean, we have a Chinese proffesional basket player, but no MMA guys. Even a tiny country like "El Salvador" has a good MMA fighter in the UFC. But China has almost no representation at all anywhere.

I thought that with the Bushido series becoming as big as it has, there would be some crazy tiny little Kung Fu chinese guys kicking ass. It seems like there are none at all. There are tons of Brazilians, Russians, Dutch and American fighters, but no Chinese guys, and China has some of the oldest MAs in the world....

Any ideas?



-BRR

 

[Djimbe]

Wow, great info.

Here is a question for ya. With so many great MA schools and top notch instructors in China.

ACTUALLY ....

China messed itself up during the so-called "Cultural Revoloution" . They did everything that they could to Eliminate Chinese Culture , and the Martial Arts are a HUGE part of that . Many of the best Teachers now reside OUTSIDE China , where current Popular Culture lends them very little Respect , typically . Its funny as HECK to watch my 65 year old teacher uttely DESTROY so-called "Expert Athlestes" 1/3 his age effortlessly , but he still has no students under thirty to speak of . And for as good as he is , he has VERY few students at all . Weve seen ppl come in , Challenge the guy , get TOTALLY DESTROYED , and yet keep believing that whatever they were doing was the best system there was . Even though he NEVER lets any of the young and Muscley guys take the Challenges . And the guy is MAYBEY 160 soaking wet .

Why do you think there aren't any Chinese MMA fighters making an impact in either pride or the UFC? I mean, we have a Chinese proffesional basket player, but no MMA guys. Even a tiny country like "El Salvador" has a good MMA fighter in the UFC. But China has almost no representation at all anywhere.

I thought that with the Bushido series becoming as big as it has, there would be some crazy tiny little Kung Fu chinese guys kicking ass. It seems like there are none at all. There are tons of Brazilians, Russians, Dutch and American fighters, but no Chinese guys, and China has some of the oldest MAs in the world....

Any ideas?

I think its Cultural .

I mean , firstly , in the Beginning no good CMA ppl were asked to Participate in the early UFCs , and the entire Community felt REALLY Snubbed by this . Especially when some ppl were SUPPOSED to be Representatives of certain Systems that had obviously never trained in them .

Secondly , the rules and Environment cater to the Groundfighter . In San Da/San Shou matches there is a Mat Time Limit usually between 30-90 seconds . THis is done to make SURE that the Techniques being Judged would be actually Useful in a real Fight . Ground Subs are cool , but if you cant get it in 90 sec its not really Viable in Combat .

Thirdly , Networking .
Birds of a Feather tend to Flock Together . and the Opposites ring true as well ...

Fourthly , the REASON ppl train . Most EAMAs arent TAKEN by ppl whom are Jocks . They arent even taken for Competitive Reasons . Think about it . Most ppl train in Wrestling TO COMPETE , that means their Coach handpicked them for Geneetics , then trained him 25+ hours/week .Most ppl take MAs just to know enough to get home safely . thats like 2-6 hours/week ! Over 10 yearsa that REALLY makes a Discrepency in skill level ! Not to MENTION that the lil nerdy dude that did the EAMA did it just to be SAFE from the kind of guy handpicked to do Wrestling !

Fifthly , China .
Its a POOR Country , and the ppl there dont have the OPPORTUITIES to train for and Participate in such events . Much less Travel to them ! Mot ppl there dont even have TELEVISIONS ! and its an ENOURMOUS Landmass , as well . MMA just isnt what it is here over there .

Sixthly many IMAs are done JUST for Health by some ppl , like Yoga .

 

[Djimbe]

Seventhly :

Kung Fu schools just arent where ppl interesteds in Careers in Competitive Fighting tend to GO ! The current Marketing and Climate created by the MMA Community says that NO ONE but them is capable of creating Fighters , and its a pretty pervasive and POersuasive sentiment . People REALY BELIEVE it , wether or not its true - so the real "GLadiator Types" , at least from a Mental Standpoint , arent exactly Flocking to the Guans out there , theyre looking into MT and BJJ .

 

[Spanky11]

there has been a few chinese fighters that entered various kyokushin tournaments at international levels, and well, the results were like the vid posted earlier.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

djimbe,

I think there must be something else to it. I mean yes MMA does have some ground fighting, but many Kickboxers like Bas, Maurice Smith, Crocop and Overeem have done really well there. And with all of the different CMA styles, I'm sure at least ONE must include some ground fighting that a Chinese MA guy could train in. And sure China may be poor, but Brazil aint rich either, some of the E. Europe countries that are putting out a lot of talent don't have a pot to piss on either.

Ok, even if there isn't anybody in China interested in competing in MMA tournaments (even if it was just for the money) I really haven't seen any fighters from other countries list a Chinese Martial Art as their style. We really cannot make the argument that CMA practicioners do not do well in MMA because of the ground fighting, I mean ONE of the Kung Fu Animals HAS TO know how to sprawl or slap on an armbar!






-BRR

 

[Yarg!]

Delucia actually did list 5 Animal Kung Fu as his style, and we all knew how that turned out...

 

[Djimbe]

Delucia actually did list 5 Animal Kung Fu as his style, and we all knew how that turned out...

Umm , what was wrong with DeLucia ? He actually beat some pretty good people , he just lost to Royce , so what ? I mean , the giuy didnt have any Particular Physical Gifts , and he studied 5AS and Aikido .

 

[Djimbe]

there has been a few chinese fighters that entered various kyokushin tournaments at international levels, and well, the results were like the vid posted earlier.

I doubt that LL of them were the same . Ppl tend to just Replay the funny vids .

 

[Djimbe]

djimbe,

I think there must be something else to it. I mean yes MMA does have some ground fighting, but many Kickboxers like Bas, Maurice Smith, Crocop and Overeem have done really well there. And with all of the different CMA styles, I'm sure at least ONE must include some ground fighting that a Chinese MA guy could train in. And sure China may be poor, but Brazil aint rich either, some of the E. Europe countries that are putting out a lot of talent don't have a pot to piss on either.

I think that youre Reading my list Seperately , as I DID write it as a List , buit not thinking bout the Factors in Combination with one another . YOu forget that for a while the chinese government tried to TOTALLY ERASE CMA from the WORLD , and after THAT they tried to do all they could to "Civilise" (read : Nerf) it .

Lets look at my Case , personally ...

People ask ME why I dont Compete , and I have to tell them that its not worth the Money ! It costs more to get my body into that kind of Conditioning and maiuntain it per WEEK than the Lower level shows would pay out , and consider that it would take me 15 weeks MINIMUM to get into real Contest Shape Id be losing $ by the Barrelfull . Its the same reason I gave up any hope of seriousl.y Bodybuilding - theres no PROFIT in it ! NTM the fact that Im pSO far out of the Weight CLasses oif the UFC - Id have to lose about 140 just to MAKE the Cut ! HAH ! Im not shaving off 15 years worth if Muscle and Power that I EARNED for the measley 1-5K that the UFC Pays ! NEVER going to Happen !

And dont even THINK about Mentioning Local Shows ... Ive had Opponents Back out on me every time - they see 400lbs and think "Michelin Man" till I get there - then all oif a sudden theyre Injured , and frankly the promoter ISNT going to pay you , ESPECIALLY if he got no Action out of it .

Until you have a Name , YOU pay to Fight - Now THATs in AMERICA - In China theres NOTHING going on from an MMA Standpoint - NOTHING !

Ok, even if there isn't anybody in China interested in competing in MMA tournaments (even if it was just for the money) I really haven't seen any fighters from other countries list a Chinese Martial Art as their style. We really cannot make the argument that CMA practicioners do not do well in MMA because of the ground fighting, I mean ONE of the Kung Fu Animals HAS TO know how to sprawl or slap on an armbar!

Shit , if I wasnt 400 lbs of Ugly I would think about not doing it either ! I mean , look at the Reaction to Delucia ! Yeah , the guy stayed in the game Past his Prime (stupidly , IMO) but when he was healthy he had a great record, but no one even knos that because he lost to Royce , and thats all that matters . They see it as "Well , He Didnt Beat BJJ , So HE SUCKS !" When actually he beat a number of BJJ ppl , he just couldnt beat ROYCE , and heck , the bjj popl he beat couldnt beat Royce EITHER !


Its like youre carrying this HUGE burden and whatnot on your back . Ive seen San Da/San Shou Rules fighters from ALL SYSTEMS absoloutley DESTROY MT guys , and Good ones (And Vice Versa , IM just not making that point here) , So youre right , they can have the skills to do it ...

And speaking of that Armbar , I always point to Bolo Yeung , whom happens to be a TAI CHI guy Slapping an Armbar on an Opponent in a certain Bruce Lee Flick about 20 years before anyone ever even HEARD of the name "Gracie" when ppl prattle on about how Chinese ppl cant Fight on the Ground .

Basically , its become this case of "Nothing To Gain , Everything To Lose" with CMA in MMA . If you dont have a PERFECT Record , if you arent INVINCIBLE , then ppl will ALWAYS blame your System , and no one wants to be that guy that brings that down on his Teacher/School . Its a position that if you take up , you must be SUPERhuman . And no one IS .

 

[Djimbe]

OH , and just so you know , I have a friend that runs a Taiji school that gets meadals in Grappling tourneys up there out of his students . The school is called "Northern Lights Tai Chi"

 

[Spanky11]

I doubt that LL of them were the same . Ppl tend to just Replay the funny vids .

actually I have fouhgt some of them - at national level, and the results were almost identical to the vid posted.

I'm sure Chinese martial arts have alot of great qualities, but they are not pure combative, fighting arts....

just my .02 c

 

[Yarg!]

Umm , what was wrong with DeLucia ? He actually beat some pretty good people , he just lost to Royce , so what ? I mean , the giuy didnt have any Particular Physical Gifts , and he studied 5AS and Aikido .

Dude name ONE good guy hes beaten. And look at his record- 33-19?? Oh yeah, thats comparable to Gomi's. And look at his losses: CANS! Lots of them are CANS.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=22

 

[Djimbe]

His record is better than yours .

And he has been willing to give up a LOT of size in fights .

 

[Djimbe]

Im no Spokesman for Sportive Fighting or anything , but CANS ? Get your ass in the Ring with any of them b4 you open your mouth like THAT . Guys dont get in the ring just to Fold up for some dude with a Pristine Record .

 

[Yarg!]

His record is better than yours .

And he has been willing to give up a LOT of size in fights .

Yeah OK, I'm 18. His stats speak for themselves. Nice comeback- what are we in, 3rd grade?? My dad can beat up your dad.

 

[Yarg!]

Im no Spokesman for Sportive Fighting or anything , but CANS ? Get your ass in the Ring with any of them b4 you open your mouth like THAT . Guys dont get in the ring just to Fold up for some dude with a Pristine Record .

Yeah I'll just get my ass in the ring. Tomorrow I'll go fight in the UFC/Pancrase/PRIDE/ after I go play drums for Iron Maiden in Rio, then open a sketch on SNL, then represent Canada in the Olympics. Seriously though, I was going to take San Shou from that super teacher on Saturdays, so I do have respect for the CMA, I think however, that Delucia was not a great person to present Kung Fu in the OCtagon.

 

[Djimbe]

Yeah OK, I'm 18. His stats speak for themselves. Nice comeback- what are we in, 3rd grade?? My dad can beat up your dad.

That explains a lot right there .

Seriously though, I was going to take San Shou from that super teacher on Saturdays, so I do have respect for the CMA, I think however, that Delucia was not a great person to present Kung Fu in the OCtagon.

THAT is EXACTLY my point !

The guy is NOBODY , frankly . No "Kung Fu Hall Of Fame" or whatever , not from any particularly great school , no Sponsorship to speak of , not physically very Impressive and from what most consider not a very advanced system of MA , even within the scope of CMA .

And yet he managed to have a better than .500 record against a MYRIAD of ppl doing BJJ + MT . Most of whom were bigger than he . He managed to Impoose his Will over that of 33 men doing "Better Arts" .

No , hes not the "Greatest Kung FU Man Alive"

And thats what makes him a GREAT Example .

 

[Kane Fan]

Lei Tai looks pretty cool

 

[Djimbe]

Oh it is . I think the Rules more closely Approximate whaat you would deal with in a real-world scenario , as well . and some of the Knockouts ... damn .

 

[Dieselgoku23]

I think Kun Fu is an excellent art to look at on TV and movies and video games besides that, any MT they whoop on them!! or any MMA. It has been proven over and over again!. But ye theirs the argument!" We dont compete because of a sport" or "Some 60 year old guy, beats down a healthy well trained 22 year old athlete etc.." its all in the movies Bruce Lee was awesome good Actor.

 

[MikeMartial]

I think Kun Fu is an excellent art to look at on TV and movies and video games besides that, any MT they whoop on them!! or any MMA. It has been proven over and over again!. But ye theirs the argument!" We dont compete because of a sport" or "Some 60 year old guy, beats down a healthy well trained 22 year old athlete etc.." its all in the movies Bruce Lee was awesome good Actor.

That made absolutely zero sense.

 

[Djimbe]

umm , just ...

Wow .