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Disturbing trend among you AS users>>
- Thread starter gwl9dta4
- Start date
Let me say first that I agree w/ most of your original post, just it came across as preachy. Also, I don't mean to flame, but I'm having a problem believing your gains. You're telling me that you put on 25lbs of clean, striated muscle every year for the past 4 years? I find that hard to believe. I know several competitive bodybuilders who train hard, eat right, and take what they have to. From my experience, and theirs, it is considered phenomenal to put on 20lbs of muscle in a year, let alone 25lbs/yr for 4 years. I also have trouble believing that someone can put on that much weight and keep their BF% down. Even the muscle gains the pros make in the offseason are usually hidden by all the fat and water weight they put on. For instance, I saw Ronnie Coleman guest pose at the Springfield, Missouri (Chad Nichols) show this year. The man had a HUGE gut and quite a bit of BF.
Alcatraz
Alcatraz
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mikelong23
New member
this was one of the better post i have read on here, and yet there are always some idiots tryin to say something negative. they think they know about the side affects and all but from their responses to this post you can tell that most are probably to ignorant to know about the sides b/c they can not even read a post correctly.
And for the idiot that said Arnold took steroids, he didn't have nearly all the steroids that most of the people take that are on this board.
And for the idiot that said Arnold took steroids, he didn't have nearly all the steroids that most of the people take that are on this board.
Arnold Schwarzenegger
New member
hey i'm arnold..i did meat, eggs, and a bunch of d-bol
Twisted_Steel
New member
Bravo!
FreakMonster
New member
Bump for all the newbies!!
THE PROTOTYPE2000
New member
Bump for all newbies!!
Saying "You AS users"
I guess kinda hit a sour note with a few people - But your intentions for helping us out seem genuinely sincere.
You see what happens when you post something informative around the same time all the kids are out of highschool? I think Eddie George needs to be promoted to moderator status (god forbid) for his infinite wisdom. 2thick is right on about all the shit talkers posting pics of themselves. George would have to create a new board - "punk ass haters"
I guess kinda hit a sour note with a few people - But your intentions for helping us out seem genuinely sincere.
You see what happens when you post something informative around the same time all the kids are out of highschool? I think Eddie George needs to be promoted to moderator status (god forbid) for his infinite wisdom. 2thick is right on about all the shit talkers posting pics of themselves. George would have to create a new board - "punk ass haters"
I am new here but this is one of the best posts that I have read. I have been off of the juice for a couple of years and plan to start back........ this time in moderation. I can say from experience that high doses of AS don't amount to crap if you do not train and eat right. Learn to train right, learn to eat right, then worry about the juice.
GX
GX
Super Sport
New member
its funny when i hear all this tuff talk and ripping peoples heads off and being "huge motherfuckers" blah blah blah...
his post was boring i admit, and long and drawn out, and kind of annoying, but the point is clear and no one can really argue with it.
id like to see how tuff you guys, who popped off at the mouth over this post all violently, are when the doctor calls you to tell you that your blood panel shows the enzyme that is released when you suffer a heart attack and that your heart is at 35% efficiency from the englargment due to AS abuse (not use, ABUSE)
or how tuff you are when you suffer that stroke (brain pops a blood vessel) over by the squat racks from the increased BS and sodium build up from your "tuff guy" cycle and lose your life on the floor with a bunch of gym guys staring at you while you drool and twitch with your eyes rolled back in your head.
or how big you are when the doctor tells you that your tests came back positive for testicular cancer or liver polyps etc.
the reason i use all those examples is that all of those happened to different guys i know from the gym....my point is be careful, none of us are immune to the consequences but we can do our part to minimize them by using them responsibly.
his post was boring i admit, and long and drawn out, and kind of annoying, but the point is clear and no one can really argue with it.
id like to see how tuff you guys, who popped off at the mouth over this post all violently, are when the doctor calls you to tell you that your blood panel shows the enzyme that is released when you suffer a heart attack and that your heart is at 35% efficiency from the englargment due to AS abuse (not use, ABUSE)
or how tuff you are when you suffer that stroke (brain pops a blood vessel) over by the squat racks from the increased BS and sodium build up from your "tuff guy" cycle and lose your life on the floor with a bunch of gym guys staring at you while you drool and twitch with your eyes rolled back in your head.
or how big you are when the doctor tells you that your tests came back positive for testicular cancer or liver polyps etc.
the reason i use all those examples is that all of those happened to different guys i know from the gym....my point is be careful, none of us are immune to the consequences but we can do our part to minimize them by using them responsibly.
trenbolone
New member
I agree with the low doses as well... but now I face a problem; I am currently on a test/eq cycle (500mg/600mg) and I was planning to add Trenbolone and Winny to the mix next monday. My original plans were to take 150mg tren EOD and 50mg oral winny ED (along with the 500mg test and 600mgEQ)... so my question is; is tren @ 150mg EOD an overkill? It is a strong androgen...?
Before replying please consider the following; This is THE first REAL bulk cycle for me, meaning that I want to make the most out of this in terms of fat loss (tren) and muscle mass. This is also my first real stack, because I have only done small test only cycles and one Winny-Trenbolone (50mgED/100mgEOD) cycle which I had to abort after week three because of personal issues.
So, I do want to take this cycle and go with the 150mg of tren, but is it worth it? I was all ready to go next monday but then I read this post and started thinking... What would you do??? I am 23 years old and I want to get into a good shape before summer (never seen my abs) and I was hoping this cycle could bring my body up to the next level. What do you think? Will I regret it in the future? I am in the belief that one large-dose cycle can't be that bad...?
PS. I have already planned that after this cycle I will do milder cycles anyway, like tren 75mg EOD (tops) test not over 500mg/wk, anavar only cycles etc...
-John
Before replying please consider the following; This is THE first REAL bulk cycle for me, meaning that I want to make the most out of this in terms of fat loss (tren) and muscle mass. This is also my first real stack, because I have only done small test only cycles and one Winny-Trenbolone (50mgED/100mgEOD) cycle which I had to abort after week three because of personal issues.
So, I do want to take this cycle and go with the 150mg of tren, but is it worth it? I was all ready to go next monday but then I read this post and started thinking... What would you do??? I am 23 years old and I want to get into a good shape before summer (never seen my abs) and I was hoping this cycle could bring my body up to the next level. What do you think? Will I regret it in the future? I am in the belief that one large-dose cycle can't be that bad...?
PS. I have already planned that after this cycle I will do milder cycles anyway, like tren 75mg EOD (tops) test not over 500mg/wk, anavar only cycles etc...
-John
FreakMonster
New member
trenbolone said:
I would def. go less than 150mg of tren. Personally I have done 75mg EOD of tren with AWESOME results. This is a very powerful drug and you will get great gains from it so there is no reason for over kill. Punching 150mg of tren EOD and your may be asking for some not so nice side-effects. It's a very harsh drug in my opinion but definitely worth it.
Never Enough
New member
Excellent post bro!! Don't worry about the haters!!
M
MohawkMuscle
Guest
smart post
Hey 2Thick, my point exactly. This post would be ideal for Slopain to take a look at reference his post earlier. He needs to delete some of the dumbass flames made here. If you don't like what the guy is saying, click back and look for another thread to read oh immature ones.
Tha One CrumCake
New member
Excellence and Truth.
You posted a thread with not only lots of intellegence but plain common sense. I have no idea why someone would flame this thread. Keep up tha good work bro.
P.s. What is your diet like during a cycle?
Slopain just gets done talking about the idiotic flames going on and this is a perfect example of what he's talking about. 2Thick, you're right on. Looks like Slopain should start here with deleting the unnecessary flames. Oh the immature ones never cease to amaze me. If nothing positive to say or no constructive way to argue the point, go on to the next post. It's real easy kids.
The_Eviscerator
New member
I have no problems with MODS deleting flaming posts. This guy speaks wisdom and assholes flame him for it. There are better ways to be constructive and critical than saying "Fuck that guy."
First off let me say I agree 110% with gwl! This issue was also discussed recently in BOT'S - Low Dosages Rule thread, where most people seemed to agree that it was a good idea to keep dosages to a minimum! To those who thought the guy
was "preaching" can I just say this, the guy is from Europe for Christ's sake which means that English is not even his first language I'd like to see some of you try to post a thread of that nature in German or something and be totally fluent in the way that it was worded, somebody even had a go at him for misspelling a word which is a bit rich considering the level of illiteracy from some on this board whose first language is English!
I don't think I need to mention the ignorant and immature that flamed gwl's minimum dosage opinions cos I think that, that issue has already been dealt with but I would like to say to E2 - seein' as you posted on the fourth page of this thread you must have realised that the vast majority of replies either totally agreed with gwl or they respected gwl's right to voice his opinion, and I'm sorry but from my point of view it's a bit rich of you to be getting on your high horse [again] regarding peoples attitude!
was "preaching" can I just say this, the guy is from Europe for Christ's sake which means that English is not even his first language I'd like to see some of you try to post a thread of that nature in German or something and be totally fluent in the way that it was worded, somebody even had a go at him for misspelling a word which is a bit rich considering the level of illiteracy from some on this board whose first language is English!
I don't think I need to mention the ignorant and immature that flamed gwl's minimum dosage opinions cos I think that, that issue has already been dealt with but I would like to say to E2 - seein' as you posted on the fourth page of this thread you must have realised that the vast majority of replies either totally agreed with gwl or they respected gwl's right to voice his opinion, and I'm sorry but from my point of view it's a bit rich of you to be getting on your high horse [again] regarding peoples attitude!
CYCLEON
New member
I notice only the newbies (i dont care how many posts they have) are flaming the guy - all of the people who have been in the game more than three days cant agree with the guy fast enough. That should tell people something..... but I know it wont, the young know-it-alls will persist in their error and pride untill that test comes in when they are age 40 (not that they could ever imagine reaching that age - but it happens if u dont get hit by a truck first)
Great freakin post!!! I am new to the AAS game and will take that advice to heart. I have lifted for 12 years and made impressive gains naturally. Now that I am tempted to try out "gear". I totally agree that moderation is the key. Actually, just as in most things in life moderation is key!! I suspect that most of the people who flamed this guy were teenagers who don't have a clue and probably shouldn't be messing with gear anyway (as their bodies are not finished growing).
Tony
Tony
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Tha One CrumCake
New member
Bump.
I still want to know what your diet is like during a cycle.
Thanks.
I still want to know what your diet is like during a cycle.
Thanks.
marky
New member
Great Post. More focus on the complex variables of training, diet and rest/recouperation are far more important than the heftyness of the doses proposed these days. Ive never done a gram a week of any stack and still built a permanent 80lbs over 10 years. Believe me when you get into your 30's and if you make it to the 40's, your body will be talking to you like it never did when you were 20 (AS or not).
HardasRock
New member
Awesome post, I make awesome gains on only 500 mg sus / week. The guys on this board who flame this post or say its all bullshit will be the ones down the road wishing they listened to this guy. Some people on this board are just plain rude and ignorant. The guy gives good advie and you bitch at him for it. Your all losers.
Manilla Gorilla
New member
Intelligent post. Muscle is built with your head, not a drug.
Later
Later
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winstrol69
New member
E2 said:Great post!
For those of you who flamed this guy, you are the reason I personally dont' frequent this board much anymore.
Why are you a mod then?
HansNZ
New member
I think using examples of people who have suffered from taking AS is meaningless. I know people who have fallen ill from eating spirulina! There are always going to be some people who fall ill from anything.
If you abuse anything you will suffer consequences. It doesn't have to be AS, it could be any number of healthy or unhealthy legal substances or activities.
Even the more dangerous steroids need not give long-term health problems if you limit their intake. The human body is not as helpless as many people would have you believe. You can stress your body - it's only when you surpass your body's capacity to recuperate the you cause damage. If I stretch a rubber band, it returns to normal when I stop. It's only when I stretch it too and snap it that it doesn't recover.
You can protect yourself from all the health problems you cite. It's a case of doing your research. I am quite convinced that no one who uses AS sensibly and who takes the proper precautions will suffer negative repercussions in later life. I actually think that builing up your bones and muscles now gives you benefits in later life.
But as a concession to the sentiment of this post, most people I know who use AS have a short term perspective on things. They don't use AS properly, and most of them take unnecessary risks. Unless you control a substance people will tend to abuse it. I don't believe in control though because I don't think we should all suffer because of the irresponsibility of others. If you (fairly, not hysterically) publicise the potential consequences of using something to people then those consequences are their choice and their responsibility.
If you abuse anything you will suffer consequences. It doesn't have to be AS, it could be any number of healthy or unhealthy legal substances or activities.
Even the more dangerous steroids need not give long-term health problems if you limit their intake. The human body is not as helpless as many people would have you believe. You can stress your body - it's only when you surpass your body's capacity to recuperate the you cause damage. If I stretch a rubber band, it returns to normal when I stop. It's only when I stretch it too and snap it that it doesn't recover.
You can protect yourself from all the health problems you cite. It's a case of doing your research. I am quite convinced that no one who uses AS sensibly and who takes the proper precautions will suffer negative repercussions in later life. I actually think that builing up your bones and muscles now gives you benefits in later life.
But as a concession to the sentiment of this post, most people I know who use AS have a short term perspective on things. They don't use AS properly, and most of them take unnecessary risks. Unless you control a substance people will tend to abuse it. I don't believe in control though because I don't think we should all suffer because of the irresponsibility of others. If you (fairly, not hysterically) publicise the potential consequences of using something to people then those consequences are their choice and their responsibility.
i agree with your great post, but ....
it still is up to the individual what he does.
quote you:
"I also know a amateur level body builder in my gym who is now about 40. Looks healthy on the outside, but has joints of a 100 year old man".
Looks like me, but i did get the bad joints WITHOUT the roids.
Now if i would have juiced earlier, my guess is that i would have less injuries then i have now.
Also, although the liver and kidneys are the 2 organs to watch out for (also prostate should be watched), i think everyone focusses too much on the liver and not enough on the kidneys.
Liver values can be controlled easily. And one should never ever take only something for the liver, kidneys must be included.
it still is up to the individual what he does.
quote you:
"I also know a amateur level body builder in my gym who is now about 40. Looks healthy on the outside, but has joints of a 100 year old man".
Looks like me, but i did get the bad joints WITHOUT the roids.
Now if i would have juiced earlier, my guess is that i would have less injuries then i have now.
Also, although the liver and kidneys are the 2 organs to watch out for (also prostate should be watched), i think everyone focusses too much on the liver and not enough on the kidneys.
Liver values can be controlled easily. And one should never ever take only something for the liver, kidneys must be included.
trenbolone said:
Well use common sence. You are starting to fall into the mentality of "just this extra CC of this drug here and there will finally, FINALLY give me the six pack i wanted" Don't fall for it. I guarantee you personally that you will be dissapointed. If not during the cycle then shortly after it. You will see.
Consider this, if you want the six pack, then analuze your diet. If it's a six pack you want then the key is your diet. Do not bulk. Try a low calorie cycle. Try the anabolic diet etc, etc... Do not susbstitute these measured with adding a new drug at fairly high dosages. How about your training, how waried is it? Perhaps you are overtrained? Look there first before reaching for the needle.
M
MohawkMuscle
Guest
bump..
good logic
good logic
The_Eviscerator
New member
This guy is right on. I know a lot of those on the board get pissed, but this guy is right. I have seen some 25 year old steroid users who have used heavy anrogens and their faces look like 40 year old men. I have never used heavy androgens and at 30 years old, most people guess me for 24 or 25.
We have a long life ahead of us. You don't want to be wearing a diaper when you are 50 because you wanted to bench 500 pounds at 25.
We have a long life ahead of us. You don't want to be wearing a diaper when you are 50 because you wanted to bench 500 pounds at 25.
Great post!!!!
This post and the prostate hyperplasia post are the best posts I have read on this board for a long time......
If you are not gonna compete in bodybuilding/powerlifting there is no need to use the harsh compounds.
I can`t believe how you guys flame the guy telling you exacly what you in the future will wish someone would have made you understand......
More is less in the long run....
/Komo
This post and the prostate hyperplasia post are the best posts I have read on this board for a long time......
If you are not gonna compete in bodybuilding/powerlifting there is no need to use the harsh compounds.
I can`t believe how you guys flame the guy telling you exacly what you in the future will wish someone would have made you understand......
More is less in the long run....
/Komo
bbkingpin
New member
This board is full of young punks.
If you youngsters ever make something of yourself outside of the gym, it will only be after you learn to respect other people -- especially when they are trying to give you friendly advice. Even if you don't agree with them, why insult them??? This board is getting intolerable at times. When all of the intelligent people leave this board, where are you punks gonna get good advice? Don't switch to any other board because you'll just destroy that board. And the only people I'm talking about are the rude and ignorant people who think abusive language from a computer keyboard makes them tough. I know "youngsters" (college age) are not all punks. I know I wasn't. To the author of this thread, your comments were interesting but only relevant to those who abuse to the extent of the pros you mentioned who, according to you, are sick from steroids. You yourself took 500mg of Sust per week. I personally would never take that much. And what does your name mean? gwl9dta4?????? And you are one big Polack! Ha Ha Ha.
If you youngsters ever make something of yourself outside of the gym, it will only be after you learn to respect other people -- especially when they are trying to give you friendly advice. Even if you don't agree with them, why insult them??? This board is getting intolerable at times. When all of the intelligent people leave this board, where are you punks gonna get good advice? Don't switch to any other board because you'll just destroy that board. And the only people I'm talking about are the rude and ignorant people who think abusive language from a computer keyboard makes them tough. I know "youngsters" (college age) are not all punks. I know I wasn't. To the author of this thread, your comments were interesting but only relevant to those who abuse to the extent of the pros you mentioned who, according to you, are sick from steroids. You yourself took 500mg of Sust per week. I personally would never take that much. And what does your name mean? gwl9dta4?????? And you are one big Polack! Ha Ha Ha.
The_Eviscerator
New member
Steve281 said:
The question is how much drugs? I weighed 205 when I started using AS, Now I weigh 225. Sure the drugs helped, but I think I would have got to 225 anyway, it just would have taken longer.
So the drugs helped "a little bit", but most of it was eating 5-6 meals a day and training 4-6 times a week.
C
Cuts
Guest
Fantastic post. Thanks.
superman71
New member
To the guy who wrote this thread fuck you ,also if they are so bad where are all the bodybags!!!
gwl9dta4 is the man
he has been very kind to me, a treated others with the utmost respect.
the guy designed a cycle for me, and left nothing to chance, every variable and nuance that could be included, was..........
and I did not even now the man.
It only took me a couple of post to realize the intelligence, and experience of this valuable member.
yea, yea, yea...come on with the homo remarks flamers I do not care.
gwl9dta4 is gold
he has been very kind to me, a treated others with the utmost respect.
the guy designed a cycle for me, and left nothing to chance, every variable and nuance that could be included, was..........
and I did not even now the man.
It only took me a couple of post to realize the intelligence, and experience of this valuable member.
yea, yea, yea...come on with the homo remarks flamers I do not care.
gwl9dta4 is gold
Texas Ranger
New member
Another GREAT post similar to Realgains!!!
im surprised to see so many guys bashing this post. its not going to stop me from taking "A" bombs but its something to consider. im 23 years old and im on my 11th year of football (5th year college) and my body feels like shit. i can only imagine what im gonna feel like when im 43 or 53. not a bad post. theres no need to tell this guy to go fuck himself. it doesnt mean you have to stop taking gear. this guy gets an afro smiley from me
Some points I agree with and some I don't.
The main problem is:
What works for you WILL NOY NECESSARILY work for me.
600T/400EQ will give one guy 30lbs and another one 5-10lbs
It all depends.
And don't give me the old "perfect diet" debate.
Nobody eats clean ALL THE TIME. Thats just a complete falsehood.
Fonz
The main problem is:
What works for you WILL NOY NECESSARILY work for me.
600T/400EQ will give one guy 30lbs and another one 5-10lbs
It all depends.
And don't give me the old "perfect diet" debate.
Nobody eats clean ALL THE TIME. Thats just a complete falsehood.
Fonz
One of the best,most intelligent posts I have ever read on this board.What amazes me is all the bashing after 2Thick's post.I've been around for a long time on these boards,and 2Thick,E2,Macrophage69alpha,Huck and Ulter are some of the most sensible,knowledgeable guys on here.Yet some will dispute.I'd hate to think if some of these Juice Junkies were Mods.That's the reason I don't frequent this board too much anymore either.TOO MUCH IGNORANCE
Lift Chief
New member
It seems like you have really good genetics bro. Congratulations, but i don't think everyone can get to 280 on the kind of dosages you suggest. However, you are right that everyone rushes into it too fast, absolutely. Everyone wants to be big yesterday- welcome to America
Lift Chief said:It seems like you have really good genetics bro. Congratulations, but i don't think everyone can get to 280 on the kind of dosages you suggest. However, you are right that everyone rushes into it too fast, absolutely. Everyone wants to be big yesterday- welcome to America
Lack of patience is the problem. Trust me, i have average genetics. But it took 8 years, so it did not happen over night. Patience is the key. You will be much happier in the long run that way.
BIG HURT said:
Yep. I'm one ignorant SOB.
No offense, but don't frequent this board with that attitude.
Also,
some of the arguments here are downright laughable.
As long as your health markers are within specs, then what exactly is the problem?
The problem is that 95% of AAS users don't get blood tests done.
Thats the problem. Its not the doses.
LOL@this entire thread.
Fonz
bigAragorn
New member
Fonz said:
LOL @ you....."its not the doses" please thats a crock of shit.
Kinda sounds like a source who doesnt give a fuck.....
lets see should i run 100mgs of dbol a day or 25mgs a day?
hmmmmmmmmmmmm what is the source gonna say.........
LOL.
wartime100
New member
Nice post. I don't agree with everything you said but you are correct that moderation is important. All these stupid motherfuckers that are bitching at you probly won't live past 50 with attitudes like this.
Very good post!
And a gram a week will get you huge bro's..then again natural trainimng properly done will get you pretty darn big too.
After all is said what dose the steroid doctor say? Ulters doc...a man that really knows his shit.
Read
Steroids Benefits and pitfals at www.newhopemed.com
RG
And a gram a week will get you huge bro's..then again natural trainimng properly done will get you pretty darn big too.
After all is said what dose the steroid doctor say? Ulters doc...a man that really knows his shit.
Read
Steroids Benefits and pitfals at www.newhopemed.com
RG
gwl9dta4 said:
HERE>> you must never assume that your genetic's are shitty. Remeber that there is a HUGE difference in training for strenght and muscle growth. Contrary to popular belief the 2 are not very closely related. I will give you an example: while training some time back i could never overcome growing my arms beyond 17.5 inches. Nothing i could do worked. I changed routines, used strick form and could curl (using straight bar) 155lbs for 10 reps in perfectly strict form and tempo. No size gains, i thought i maxed my arms out. Then i shifted my concentration from curling the weight to making my muscle contract till it burned so hard it felt like it will rip off the bone, Well within 4 weeks curling only a 30lb bar my arms went to 19.2 inches cold. Moral? It's the training not the drugs that make or break you. You have to discover whay stimulates your body, don't just lift weights.
Huge difference in training for strength and muscle growth??
They are closely related. You can't gain lean body mass without getting stronger. What you did was change your routine,which stimulated growth. You did get stronger.
Very good info ! Thanks GWL !
bigAragorn
New member
kbrkbr said:
This from a guy who recommends androgel for HPTA recovery.
LOL
bigAragorn said:
You are so ignorant its downright sad.
Androgel CAN be used for Post cycle recovery. We have been discussing this matter over at AF.
Now, do yourself a favour and shut up before you embarass yourself any further.
KKbwhatever........same thing.
grlwhatever........while your points might be sound, bodybuilding is NOT, I repeat NOT everybodies #1 priority here. SO, if they're going to take more AAS to circumvent a moderately clean diet
to achieve their goals than they will.
Bodybuilding is a lifestyle. BUT IT DOESN'T PUT BREAD ON THE TABLE.
So again, raise your cyber hands if you have blood test done while on cycle.............
I thought as much.
Fonz
And just to prove how much of an ignoramus all you kiddies are:
From AF:
The gels work by releasing minute amounts of test through the skin all day long. Its not enough to trigger the feedback loop but enough to roughly double your total test values.
Agel is too new to have a lot of pier reviewed studies availabe. However, I have talked with my doctor and he has explained to me that LH suppression is time and dose dependant (says in insert too), meaning that early morning treatment with low dose is not very suppressive. I also have the following statements from other patients/doctors experiments:
Since AndroGel only brings your testosterone levels up to a normal range, it is generally a safe and mild treatment option. Studies have shown minimal side effects and only mild shut down of natural testosterone production (1).
References
1. Swerdloff, RS, and Wang, C., et al., Long-term pharmacokinetics of transdermal testosterone gel in hypogonadal men., J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Dec;85(12):4500-10.
The intend of agel in the recovery program is for libido purposes, and may delay overall recovery a bit. However, its not just about fast recovery but achieving homeostasis in a managable manner, without slipping into depression and muscle loss while you wait for endo test to come back. The same goes for morning dbol.
As everyone knows already, only time will recover you completely.
from Gotwood:
testo gel lowered LH but not too much
Got Wood? note : these men ranged from 22-65. Testo enanthate (inj) lowered LH too much - to subnormal values. Testo gel lowered LH to normal, but not beyond to a subnormal range. This is evidence that the testo gel may not lower the LH too much, thereby inhibiting recovery. however again these are hypogonadal men.
============================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Oct;84(10):3469-78
Pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of a permeation-enhanced testosterone transdermal system in comparison with bi-weekly injections of testosterone enanthate for the treatment of hypogonadal men.
Dobs AS, Meikle AW, Arver S, Sanders SW, Caramelli KE, Mazer NA.
Johns Hopkins Medical Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21287, USA. [email protected]
The pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of the Androderm testosterone (T) transdermal system (TTD) and intramuscular T enanthate injections (i.m.) for the treatment of male hypogonadism were compared in a 24-week multicenter, randomized, parallel-group study. Sixty-six adult hypogonadal men (22-65 years of age) were withdrawn from prior i.m. treatment for 4-6 weeks and then randomly assigned to treatment with TTD (two 2.5-mg systems applied nightly) or i.m. (200 mg injected every 2 weeks); there were 33 patients per group. Twenty-six patients in the TTD group and 32 in the i.m. group completed the study. TTD treatment produced circadian variations in the levels of total T, bioavailable T, dihydrotestosterone, and estradiol within the normal physiological ranges. i.m. treatment produced supraphysiological levels of T, bioavailable T, and estradiol (but not dihydrotestosterone) for several days after each injection. Mean morning sex hormone levels were within the normal range in greater proportions of TTD patients (range, 77-100%) than i.m. patients (range, 19-84%). Both treatments normalized LH levels in approximately 50% of patients with primary hypogonadism; however, LH levels were suppressed to the subnormal range in 31% of i.m. patients vs. 0% of TTD patients. Both treatments maintained sexual function (assessed by questionnaire and Rigiscan) and mood (Beck Depression Inventory) at the prior treatment levels. Prostate-specific antigen levels, prostate volumes, and lipid and serum chemistry parameters were comparable in both treatment groups. Transient skin irritation from the patches was reported by 60% of the TTD patients, but caused only three patients (9%) to discontinue treatment. i.m. treatment produced local reactions in 33% of patients and was associated with significantly more abnormal hematocrit elevations (43.8% of patients) compared with TTD treatment (15.4% of patients). Gynecomastia resolved more frequently during TTD treatment (4 of 10 patients) than with i.m. treatment (1 of 9 patients). Although both treatments seem to be efficacious for replacing T in hypogonadal men, the more physiological sex hormone levels and profiles associated with TTD may offer possible advantages over i.m. in minimizing excessive stimulation of erythropoiesis, preventing/ameliorating gynecomastia, and not over-suppressing gonadotropins.
Now go cry.
Fonz
From AF:
The gels work by releasing minute amounts of test through the skin all day long. Its not enough to trigger the feedback loop but enough to roughly double your total test values.
Agel is too new to have a lot of pier reviewed studies availabe. However, I have talked with my doctor and he has explained to me that LH suppression is time and dose dependant (says in insert too), meaning that early morning treatment with low dose is not very suppressive. I also have the following statements from other patients/doctors experiments:
Since AndroGel only brings your testosterone levels up to a normal range, it is generally a safe and mild treatment option. Studies have shown minimal side effects and only mild shut down of natural testosterone production (1).
References
1. Swerdloff, RS, and Wang, C., et al., Long-term pharmacokinetics of transdermal testosterone gel in hypogonadal men., J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Dec;85(12):4500-10.
The intend of agel in the recovery program is for libido purposes, and may delay overall recovery a bit. However, its not just about fast recovery but achieving homeostasis in a managable manner, without slipping into depression and muscle loss while you wait for endo test to come back. The same goes for morning dbol.
As everyone knows already, only time will recover you completely.
from Gotwood:
testo gel lowered LH but not too much
Got Wood? note : these men ranged from 22-65. Testo enanthate (inj) lowered LH too much - to subnormal values. Testo gel lowered LH to normal, but not beyond to a subnormal range. This is evidence that the testo gel may not lower the LH too much, thereby inhibiting recovery. however again these are hypogonadal men.
============================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Oct;84(10):3469-78
Pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of a permeation-enhanced testosterone transdermal system in comparison with bi-weekly injections of testosterone enanthate for the treatment of hypogonadal men.
Dobs AS, Meikle AW, Arver S, Sanders SW, Caramelli KE, Mazer NA.
Johns Hopkins Medical Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21287, USA. [email protected]
The pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of the Androderm testosterone (T) transdermal system (TTD) and intramuscular T enanthate injections (i.m.) for the treatment of male hypogonadism were compared in a 24-week multicenter, randomized, parallel-group study. Sixty-six adult hypogonadal men (22-65 years of age) were withdrawn from prior i.m. treatment for 4-6 weeks and then randomly assigned to treatment with TTD (two 2.5-mg systems applied nightly) or i.m. (200 mg injected every 2 weeks); there were 33 patients per group. Twenty-six patients in the TTD group and 32 in the i.m. group completed the study. TTD treatment produced circadian variations in the levels of total T, bioavailable T, dihydrotestosterone, and estradiol within the normal physiological ranges. i.m. treatment produced supraphysiological levels of T, bioavailable T, and estradiol (but not dihydrotestosterone) for several days after each injection. Mean morning sex hormone levels were within the normal range in greater proportions of TTD patients (range, 77-100%) than i.m. patients (range, 19-84%). Both treatments normalized LH levels in approximately 50% of patients with primary hypogonadism; however, LH levels were suppressed to the subnormal range in 31% of i.m. patients vs. 0% of TTD patients. Both treatments maintained sexual function (assessed by questionnaire and Rigiscan) and mood (Beck Depression Inventory) at the prior treatment levels. Prostate-specific antigen levels, prostate volumes, and lipid and serum chemistry parameters were comparable in both treatment groups. Transient skin irritation from the patches was reported by 60% of the TTD patients, but caused only three patients (9%) to discontinue treatment. i.m. treatment produced local reactions in 33% of patients and was associated with significantly more abnormal hematocrit elevations (43.8% of patients) compared with TTD treatment (15.4% of patients). Gynecomastia resolved more frequently during TTD treatment (4 of 10 patients) than with i.m. treatment (1 of 9 patients). Although both treatments seem to be efficacious for replacing T in hypogonadal men, the more physiological sex hormone levels and profiles associated with TTD may offer possible advantages over i.m. in minimizing excessive stimulation of erythropoiesis, preventing/ameliorating gynecomastia, and not over-suppressing gonadotropins.
Now go cry.
Fonz
I agree with most of what you posted. Seems like lots of bros are flaming you and getting defensive because they are questioing their own usage. If people disagree there is no need to get all pissy and shit. You are entitled to your opinion, and this guy isn't trying to force his opinion on you or anything. You don't like his opinion then just post yours and be civil. I think some bros need to start acting like they are old enough to use AAS...
BTW I've already gotten 2 blood tests done and I've only done one cycle (one before the cycle, one post). I also intend to get tested after the current cycle I am on. Just because Fonz asked I agree with Fonz about the fact that lots of problems occur because people don't go get their health checked out. Usually the probs can be fixed fairly easily if proper time off is taken and you eat correctly, maybe supplement with some meds or supps to correct your problem (notice I said _usually_); however most people never get tested, and by the time you "feel" the side effects it is often too late.....what kills me is for most these blood tests are covered by insurance!! It's like a 5 dollar co-pay! Let's see 5 dollars, or 20 years off my life.....hmmmm
BTW I've already gotten 2 blood tests done and I've only done one cycle (one before the cycle, one post). I also intend to get tested after the current cycle I am on. Just because Fonz asked
I agree with Fonz about the fact that lots of problems occur because people don't go get their health checked out. Usually the probs can be fixed fairly easily if proper time off is taken and you eat correctly, maybe supplement with some meds or supps to correct your problem (notice I said _usually_); however most people never get tested, and by the time you "feel" the side effects it is often too late.....what kills me is for most these blood tests are covered by insurance!! It's like a 5 dollar co-pay! Let's see 5 dollars, or 20 years off my life.....hmmmm
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sauerbrauten
New member
Gwl9 strait up good post. I agree with you 100% and the people who try to bash you are the ones in for th esuprise down the road not that i wish it uppon anybody. Moderation is key. Not that i always follow this advice . Hell im probibaly one to take a lesson from it. But i should and will try too.
PS: Kurde wysllij mi stary zdjecie na email jak mozesz ok?. Widac ze duzy skurczysyn z ciebje
PS: Kurde wysllij mi stary zdjecie na email jak mozesz ok?. Widac ze duzy skurczysyn z ciebje
I wasn't really directing that at you Fonz, it was more to the people who were swearing at this guy in the beginning of the thread. I haven't read the whole thread but what I have read your posts were very civil and well thought out. I was refering to those who said "FUCK YOU ASSSHOLE I'M GOING TO KILL YOU" and immature shit like that.
VicTusDeuS
New member
2Thick said:
True...For once I agree with this numbskull
TommyGunns
New member
Interesting thread 
MUSTGETHUUUUUGE
New member
PYRO said:
LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
bigAragorn
New member
Fonz said:
whoa Fonz take er ease
no need for name calling i didnt say shit about your backing of androgel for post cycle recovery i was laughing at the fact that you have been quite outspoken in the past of your views and when someone disagrees with you i find it quite funny.
i disagree with you on alot of things of which i will not mention at this time cause its irrelavent.......the point is i take most of what you say with a grain of salt......for reasons im sure youre aware of.
whats more is you belittle me and attack my intelligence and then back up your point with the fact that "we've been discussing this matter over at AF"---> WHO GIVES A FUCK!!!!!! you of all people should know that for every study or what not that one posts there is another to contradict that one. You also say that different things work for different people, no? Well than why post a fuckin study to back yourself up when it applies to circumstances within the study. I personally use and will continue to use clomid and clen post cycle.......it worked for me and i trust that method. BUT I WILL NOT BELITTLE ANYONE ELSES OPINION AND THEN BULLY THEM BY POSTING SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF " me and my friends over at AF have been discussing this matter and therefore it is sound". GO FUCK YOURSELF. You know what looking back post cycle therapy was not even the argument i had it was you stating that the doses are irrelavent. ANd by that i believe you mean that because different things work for different people they ARE therefore irrelavent. SO on that i see your point and accept your opinion.
On another note, whats sad is putting up a picture of someone else and claiming its you.......thats sad bro, really really really really sad. Downright even.
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The Architect
New member
Thanks for the intelligent post. After reading the thread I can't believe how many people bashed you. Too many ignorant bros on this board.
BigAndy69 said:
What are you talking about?
He means when i put up a pic that wasn't me on the chat board.
Its funny how thats the only thing left for him to say to argue his points.
He's so far behind cutting edge he doesn't even realize it.
At AF, thats where we discuss cutting edge. You can actually
float ideas there without children(like BigAragon) wailing
about how stupid your idea supposedly is. In retrospect, IMO this is quite funny.....LOL
The difference between me and you BigAragon, is that I INITITIATE discussions on ideas, while you just sit behind your computer basking in your own sheer intellectual stupidity
thinking you know everything there is to know.
No offense, but LMFAO@you.
The day you have an original thought is the day hell
freezes over.
Fonz
Fonz said:
I think you are completely wrong about him. I know the guy personnally and you won't find a more stand up guy.
And he is VERY eager to learn and has been from day 1. He's very open minded.
The reason he is participating on this thread is because he beleives in low doses.
He did his first cycle in May and everyone at the gym and on the net wastelling him to run 500-750mg of test a week, 400mg of Eq and 30mg of dbol.
Just like most guys promote on AF.
Well, I told him to do 1 sust every 5 days. With all the "evidence" and advice he was getting from other people, he SHOULDN'T have listened to me. He made up his own mind, against what everyone was saying and went ahead with a karachi sust every 5 days for 8 weeks with 100mg of spectro prop EOD the last 4 weeks
He went from 6' 225 to 6' 254 lbs. 2 months after his clomid/clen he was still 252lbs.
Well he's now 265lbs on 525mg of test and 37.5mg of tren ED...still has 8 weeks to go.
29lbs on 400mg of test a week...I think he has original thoughts and he obviously knows what he's doing so I respect and consider what he says.
And trust me, no offense but you wouldn't be LMFAO@him in his face.
Fonz said:
If I went to MIT,
I'd say you're an insecure imbecile who tries to dazzle those who are one day behind you in 75 cent words.. I might even go on to say you shouldn't put down the ill informed, those that can't differentiate shit from shinola and see through your substanceless 'theories.'
But instead, since I go the Homer Simpson school of Quasi-science, I say you're a pretty sharp guy.
40butpumpin
New member
This is an excellent post (the original one), thanks for taking the time to write it up brother.
Fonz are you sure you're not suffering some kind of gear-induced anxiety. I'm actually quite sincere about this, bro, you seem on edge as of late. Please forgive my noticing, however, I sense that bro's walk on egg shells around you for fear of a cyber tongue lashing. I don't want to get into a war of words here with you bud but take it for what it's worth, you are noticibly -- and unnecessarily -- aggressive lately. The speed at which you resort to name calling and put-downs is remarkable. I respect what you say because you are indeed always on the cutting edge, as you say, and always have something interesting to say, however, please take a hard look man.
Fonz are you sure you're not suffering some kind of gear-induced anxiety. I'm actually quite sincere about this, bro, you seem on edge as of late. Please forgive my noticing, however, I sense that bro's walk on egg shells around you for fear of a cyber tongue lashing. I don't want to get into a war of words here with you bud but take it for what it's worth, you are noticibly -- and unnecessarily -- aggressive lately. The speed at which you resort to name calling and put-downs is remarkable. I respect what you say because you are indeed always on the cutting edge, as you say, and always have something interesting to say, however, please take a hard look man.
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Golden_Muscle
New member
It is a very good post bro. Why would anyone get mad at this guy? Oh no, hes not an anadrol freak, he must be a weakling. If health is not a concern for you guys its not his problem.
If health is not a concern for you guys its not his problem.
