Congress - HGH - & Professional Athletics

[Captain FT]

Seriously,

Why do they feel the need to stick there nose in everything? First is was MLB, now there are talks about NFL and subpoenaing members of NFLPA to testify.

Why?

What do they fucking care, and why do they care so much. Do they want to kill the game?

Seriously if I were a player and I was called to testify, i'd say...

"Do you take HGH Mr. Captain?"
"Yes"
"Who else takes HGH in the NFL"
"Everyone"
"Everyone?"
"Yes everyone"
"Oh...carry on then, we don't want to kill the sport like we did baseball"

 

[digimon7068]

with the economy in it's current condition, those asshats wouldn't dare waste any money on another (incredibly unpopular) witch hunt that they have no business in...would they??

 

[EarthRider]

nobody cares

 

[lartinos]

What do you expect.. For them to focus on issues that really matter, lol.
This is why we have protests everywhere, these politicians are full of shit.
It starts with peaceful protests and very well could lead to more.

 

[PICK3]

RS says we need moar govmint regulation


just sayin'

 

[mrplunkey]

If they can control your healthcare then of course they can control your gear/supplements/hormone.

 

[digimon7068]

If they can control your healthcare then of course they can control your gear/supplements/hormone.

true...and they do...but i don't want them policing the nfl, mlb, nba or any other sports organization...they (the gubmint) already made the laws and they are charged with enforcing them as well, but congressional investigations of steroid/gh use in the nfl is not enforcement.

 

[Captain FT]

I just don't get why congress cares, if they really cared about who takes steroids why don't they crack down on the Mr. Olympia contest, the IFBB, or the NPC?

Next thing you know they will single out players by their "look" and want to see their test results, then question the legitimacy of the test results because "they look to good to be natural".

Bunch of fucking old men that never got anywhere in athletics, probably got picked on by all the jocks in high school, now have to ruin professional athletics for everyone.

Politicians: NFL players stalling on HGH test - NY Daily News

 

[digimon7068]

I just don't get why congress cares, if they really cared about who takes steroids why don't they crack down on the Mr. Olympia contest, the IFBB, or the NPC?

Next thing you know they will single out players by their "look" and want to see their test results, then question the legitimacy of the test results because "they look to good to be natural".

Bunch of fucking old men that never got anywhere in athletics, probably got picked on by all the jocks in high school, now have to ruin professional athletics for everyone.

Politicians: NFL players stalling on HGH test - NY Daily News

ya know...if there's a crackdown, there's a crackdown...so be it...and if the various leagues can agree on testing procedures, let them...but congress has no business wasting their time and our money conducting an investigation that they are ill-equipped to undertake...the federal, state and local goverments already have thousands of very well paid investigators on their payroll, and a lot of them are actually really good at what they do...let the investigators do the investigating and let congress worry about how to fix the fucking economy, etc. you'd think that congress would learn from arlen specter (and a couple of others) that spearheaded the last investigation and then lost their jobs in the next election...america is not fucking interested in its lawmaker's conducting bullshit investigations.

 

[SpyWizard]

remember that congress are representatives of the people.. that is they are the voice of those that they listen to...

see why they care now??

 

[digimon7068]

remember that congress are representatives of the people WITH AN ASSLOAD OF MONEY.. that is they are the voice of those WITH AN ASSLOAD OF MONEY that they listen to...

see why they care now??

fixed and, yes, it's crystal clear now...thanks!

 

[mrplunkey]

I just don't get why congress cares, if they really cared about who takes steroids why don't they crack down on the Mr. Olympia contest, the IFBB, or the NPC?

Next thing you know they will single out players by their "look" and want to see their test results, then question the legitimacy of the test results because "they look to good to be natural".

Bunch of fucking old men that never got anywhere in athletics, probably got picked on by all the jocks in high school, now have to ruin professional athletics for everyone.

Politicians: NFL players stalling on HGH test - NY Daily News

I agree they should stay out of it.

But I'm sure their argument involves protecting the public interest. They'd argue that enough Americans, particularly children, are effected by athletes acting as role models.

It's BS, but that's probably their argument.

 

[redsamurai]

true...and they do...but i don't want them policing the nfl, mlb, nba or any other sports organization...they (the gubmint) already made the laws and they are charged with enforcing them as well, but congressional investigations of steroid/gh use in the nfl is not enforcement.

I have a different take on the matter....professional sports should be policed because if not the drug usage gets out of control and anyone that wants to be a professional athlete has to play the synthetic hormone game or they don't put food on the table. We shouldn't allow a professional sport environment where people are forced to use drugs. Besids, professional athletes eat, sleep and train for a living so there is no reason for them to juice unless they want to be lazy and party like rockstars the night before games. For regular people who aren't taking food off anyone's table by juicing, who cares....people who sit in an office chair for 7 hours a day should almost be required to take exongenous hormones because that lifestyle is taking away their natural abilities to produce anythhing. But without them the athletes don't make money.

 

[digimon7068]

I have a different take on the matter....professional sports should be policed because if not the drug usage gets out of control and anyone that wants to be a professional athlete has to play the synthetic hormone game or they don't put food on the table. We shouldn't allow a professional sport environment where people are forced to use drugs. Besids, professional athletes eat, sleep and train for a living so there is no reason for them to juice unless they want to be lazy and party like rockstars the night before games. For regular people who aren't taking food off anyone's table by juicing, who cares....people who sit in an office chair for 7 hours a day should almost be required to take exongenous hormones because that lifestyle is taking away their natural abilities to produce anythhing. But without them the athletes don't make money.

i have no problem with policing (as i stated in a separate post)...however, congress is not the police...congress passes the laws...steroids/hgh/et al are controlled substances and have been for a long time...is there a need for additional laws on the matter? if so, let them evaluate and pass new laws. otherwise? let the police do the policing. the baseball witch hunt was a sad joke...especially with all the shit going on at the time, both domestically and internationally...marines are bleeding and dying on the sand in asscrackistan and iraq and congress is spending countless hours and billions of dollars trying to determine if mark mcgwire and sammy sosa and rafael palmeiro, etc were taking steroids (and we all knew they were)...fuck that shit. ask arlen specter (that fucking jackass) how he feels now about his participation in that fucking shit...he's got plenty of time to talk about it now, since he lost his job.

 

[mrplunkey]

I have a different take on the matter....professional sports should be policed because if not the drug usage gets out of control and anyone that wants to be a professional athlete has to play the synthetic hormone game or they don't put food on the table. We shouldn't allow a professional sport environment where people are forced to use drugs. Besids, professional athletes eat, sleep and train for a living so there is no reason for them to juice unless they want to be lazy and party like rockstars the night before games. For regular people who aren't taking food off anyone's table by juicing, who cares....people who sit in an office chair for 7 hours a day should almost be required to take exongenous hormones because that lifestyle is taking away their natural abilities to produce anythhing. But without them the athletes don't make money.

Drugs are only one of many tools athletes can employ to get an edge.

Many years ago, training for sports was considered unseemly because it detracted from the essence of the sport. Now, training for practically every professional sport is a given.

 

[redsamurai]

Drugs are only one of many tools athletes can employ to get an edge.

any "tool" that has the potential to damage one's health are the ones that should be controlled in professional sports. A tool, such as a new training aid apparatus, that's not the same thing.

Many years ago, training for sports was considered unseemly because it detracted from the essence of the sport. Now, training for practically every professional sport is a give

could you elaborate here....cause the ancient greeks "trained" for their sports.

 

[-SD-]

My tool definetely gives me the edge

 

[mrplunkey]

any "tool" that has the potential to damage one's health are the ones that should be controlled in professional sports. A tool, such as a new training aid apparatus, that's not the same thing.

Here's a tool that is damaging athletes' health on a routine basis:

Weight-Lifting Injuries on the Rise - NYTimes.com

Excerpt from article:

"People were most often injured by dropping weights on themselves, crushing a body part between weights or hitting themselves with the equipment. Overexertion, muscle pulls and loss of balance accounted for about 14 percent of emergency room visits. More than 90 percent of the injuries occurred while using free weights rather than weight machines. "

 

[-SD-]

Here's a tool that is damaging athletes' health on a routine basis:

Weight-Lifting Injuries on the Rise - NYTimes.com

Excerpt from article:

"People were most often injured by dropping weights on themselves, crushing a body part between weights or hitting themselves with the equipment. Overexertion, muscle pulls and loss of balance accounted for about 14 percent of emergency room visits. More than 90 percent of the injuries occurred while using free weights rather than weight machines. "

Sounds like a bunch of drunk monkeys working out, irregardless of experience

 

[mrplunkey]

Sounds like a bunch of drunk monkeys working out, irregardless of experience

I can't argue that.

But gear is a lot like weights in that it's a great tool for performance enhancement when used correctly and a huge disaster if abused.

 

[redsamurai]

I can't argue that.

But gear is a lot like weights in that it's a great tool for performance enhancement when used correctly and a huge disaster if abused.

The comparison between damaging your health through physical exertion vs substituting your bodies hormones with synthetic versions is woefully invalid, I hope you were just being snarky.

 

[PICK3]

The comparison between damaging your health through physical exertion vs substituting your bodies hormones with synthetic versions is woefully invalid, I hope you were just being snarky.

 

[mrplunkey]

The comparison between damaging your health through physical exertion vs substituting your bodies hormones with synthetic versions is woefully invalid, I hope you were just being snarky.

Ahhh... So the multi-million dollar athlete with an army of endocrinologists monitoring him is worse off than a 17 year old about to compression fracture L1 by trying to squat 100lbs too much with terrible form?

 

[PICK3]

Ahhh... So the multi-million dollar athlete with an army of endocrinologists monitoring him is worse off than a 17 year old about to compression fracture L1 by trying to squat 100lbs too much with terrible form?

and w/o wearing teh Vibrams

 

[redsamurai]

Ahhh... So the multi-million dollar athlete with an army of endocrinologists monitoring him is worse off than a 17 year old about to compression fracture L1 by trying to squat 100lbs too much with terrible form?

stop moving down the line, we're not talking about 17 year high school kids trying to ego lift. The issue is whether professional athletes should basically be forced into substituting their natural hormones in order to compete with those that are.

And that professional athlete with an army of endocrinologists, will they be there when he's washed out of the sport? No, and those drugs he took while he was playing always take their cut on the back end. The endocrinologists are just there to keep him playing for the few years he's a viable asset to a team, after that they're gone.

 

[mrplunkey]

stop moving down the line, we're not talking about 17 year high school kids trying to ego lift. The issue is whether professional athletes should basically be forced into substituting their natural hormones in order to compete with those that are.

And that professional athlete with an army of endocrinologists, will they be there when he's washed out of the sport? No, and those drugs he took while he was playing always take their cut on the back end. The endocrinologists are just there to keep him playing for the few years he's a viable asset to a team, after that they're gone.

So let's get this straight:

- We can force them to engage in high-intensity training, some of which has a proven track history of injury.
- We can force them into strict dietary and supplementation regimens, some of which have known adverse health effects.
- We can force them to forgo their high school and college educations. So they'll either go pro or be a janitor somewhere.
- We can force them to risk vertebral / spinal disc degeneration in their older age due to repeated spine trauma.
- We can force them to sacrifice their joint health at old age (linemen don't do well post-retirement)
- We can force them to risk left ventricular hypertrophy from high cardiac output demands.
- We can force them to risk delayed-onset dementia from repeated blows to the head.

But we can't let them feel pressured into taking hormonal supplementation due to its potential downstream effects.

I'm not buying it.

 

[musclemom]

I agree they should stay out of it.

But I'm sure their argument involves protecting the public interest. They'd argue that enough Americans, particularly children, are effected by athletes acting as role models.

It's BS, but that's probably their argument.

SpyWizard and Lartinos are picking up on it, it's a shill game. Same fucking argument used against gay marriage. Stupid arguments that get people worked up and totally distracts them from anything that really matters. Oh no, pro football players take steroids, next thing you know it will be infiltrating the PONY LEAGUE!!!

Right up there with getting the conservative Christians frightened that if you let gays marry somehow The Geigh will turn into a pandemic and otherwise straight people will become fruitloops overnight and the fabric of society will dissolve. Do they really think there are that many latent homosexuals in the world?

 

[redsamurai]

So let's get this straight:

- We can force them to engage in high-intensity training, some of which has a proven track history of injury.
- We can force them into strict dietary and supplementation regimens, some of which have known adverse health effects.
- We can force them to forgo their high school and college educations. So they'll either go pro or be a janitor somewhere.
- We can force them to risk vertebral / spinal disc degeneration in their older age due to repeated spine trauma.
- We can force them to sacrifice their joint health at old age (linemen don't do well post-retirement)
- We can force them to risk left ventricular hypertrophy from high cardiac output demands.
- We can force them to risk delayed-onset dementia from repeated blows to the head.

But we can't let them feel pressured into taking hormonal supplementation due to its potential downstream effects.

I'm not buying it.

Uhhh that training stuff you're talking about doesn't just make them more competitive on the field, it what keeps them healthy and playing at all. I would think most people intuitively understood this but I concede that if you didn't play a sport or at least a physical one, than maybe you don't understand this. Ask any football player what would happen to him on sunday if he didn't train...and detrimental dietary effects? what in the z hell are you talking about squids? Professional athletes eat way better than anyone on the planet...they have dieticians telling them exactly when to eat and cooks that will make their food. They eat the best food money can buy, sometimes I'm just left speechless by some of the stuff you write. If you have an opinion on something fine but do think it through otherwise it sounds like you're the one getting stoned. Is it the Lunesta talking or something cause that I understand.

And actually foregoing high school and college is being frowned upon if only for the idea that playing out your college career makes you a better player with less to teach when you reach the pro's. I know they don't give a shit about your education. But hey, Andrew Luck is about to get paid like a mother and he stayed at Stanford to finish his architecture. You can stay in school and still go pro, it's just a matter of losing a year or two of salary. Did Luck get pressured into leaving Stanford? OF course, but did he..no, and wasn't forced to.

So unless you're going to advocate some sort of "all natural" sports leagues, which would be a mess....looks like we should be staying roid free in professional sports. And that left ventricle hypertrophy is more often then not the result of steroid use you did know that right? Cause I do for a fact because the Cleveland Clinic told me so....who should I listen to on that one, hmmmm.....

oh yeah...

Am J Cardiol. 1997 Nov 15;80(10):1384-8.

Left ventricular hypertrophy in athletes.

Douglas PS, O'Toole ML, Katz SE, Ginsburg GS, Hiller WD, Laird RH.


Source

Cardiovascular Division, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA.


Abstract

Left ventricular wall thickness >1.3 cm, septal-to-posterior wall ratios > 1.5, diastolic left ventricular size >6.0 cm, and eccentric or concentric remodeling are rare in athletes. Values outside of these cutoffs in an athlete of any age probably represent a pathologic state.


PMID: 9388126 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


ur still dumb

 

[mrplunkey]

^^^ There is so much wrong with that post that I genuinely don't know where to start.

 

[PICK3]

^^^ There is so much wrong with that post that I genuinely don't know where to start.

 

[mrplunkey]

SpyWizard and Lartinos are picking up on it, it's a shill game. Same fucking argument used against gay marriage. Stupid arguments that get people worked up and totally distracts them from anything that really matters. Oh no, pro football players take steroids, next thing you know it will be infiltrating the PONY LEAGUE!!!

Right up there with getting the conservative Christians frightened that if you let gays marry somehow The Geigh will turn into a pandemic and otherwise straight people will become fruitloops overnight and the fabric of society will dissolve. Do they really think there are that many latent homosexuals in the world?

There is a tiny sliver of conservative Christians that are worried about some sort of pandemic. The vast majority simply don't want to subsidize it. And as an atheist myself, I don't want to subsidize gay or straight marriage either way.

 

[redsamurai]

^^^ There is so much wrong with that post that I genuinely don't know where to start.

we know what that means in plunkey translation. Funniest part was your medical assertion, that was gold.

 

[PICK3]

Do they really think there are that many latent homosexuals in the world?

if this board is a sampling, I'm going to have to say yes.

 

[jiggagold]

So let's get this straight:

- We can force them to engage in high-intensity training, some of which has a proven track history of injury.
- We can force them into strict dietary and supplementation regimens, some of which have known adverse health effects.
- We can force them to forgo their high school and college educations. So they'll either go pro or be a janitor somewhere.
- We can force them to risk vertebral / spinal disc degeneration in their older age due to repeated spine trauma.
- We can force them to sacrifice their joint health at old age (linemen don't do well post-retirement)
- We can force them to risk left ventricular hypertrophy from high cardiac output demands.
- We can force them to risk delayed-onset dementia from repeated blows to the head.

But we can't let them feel pressured into taking hormonal supplementation due to its potential downstream effects.

I'm not buying it.

this post is asinine, do you just argue to argue, i agree with the head trauma and joint issues but everything else is just your biased opinion or what you heard from some guy at the gym

 

[mrplunkey]

this post is asinine, do you just argue to argue, i agree with the head trauma and joint issues but everything else is just your biased opinion or what you heard from some guy at the gym

So you agree on the head trauma and joint issues, but don't on the degenerative spine issue?

Wow -- is there something magical that protects the spine?

 

[jiggagold]

yes, a proper training regimen tailored to the athletes bio mechanical strengths and weaknesses protects the spine, any non-athletic jag off can hurt his spine sitting on the john or at work, and it seems your arguement is only directed at contact sports

 

[PICK3]

yes, a proper training regimen tailored to the athletes bio mechanical strengths and weaknesses protects the spine, any non-athletic jag off can hurt his spine sitting on the john or at work, and it seems your arguement is only directed at contact sports

and vector alignment

 

[jiggagold]

just worry about your sphincter alignment

 

[PICK3]

just worry about your sphincter alignment

ololololol!

 

[jiggagold]

lolololololloloololoolloololol

 

[mrplunkey]

yes, a proper training regimen tailored to the athletes bio mechanical strengths and weaknesses protects the spine, any non-athletic jag off can hurt his spine sitting on the john or at work, and it seems your arguement is only directed at contact sports

So let's pick professional football.

You acknowledge that a significant number of these players are probably going to suffer long-term effects from TBI (traumatic brain injury) resulting from multiple blows to the head.

You acknowledge that a significant number of these players will probably experience premature degenerative joint disease (DJD) (particularly the knees) resulting from numerous types of stress and contact.

But you don't think they'll suffer any degenerative spine disease as a result from contact similar to that causing TBI's and DJD?

 

[mrplunkey]

One of you sports geniuses should estimate how many high school and college football players there are in the US right now.

 

[jiggagold]

I'm sure there will be slight degenerative disc diseases, alterations in the spine from contact but I hear more about back issues from the general population than from athletes (first hand experience here). Once a player signs that contract they put themselves at risk whether they know it or not. High risk high reward (in most cases)but at the same time a player can avoid further issues with pre and post rehabilitation during and after their career to counteract trauma to the spine. Its what is around the spine that protects it. And stabilizing, mobilizing and strengthening your lumbar and thoracic spine can protect you in the future.

Preventative medicine is the key to a pain free future.

 

[PICK3]

It can be said that football players, in general, increase their risk of developing low back pain, DDD, and FD as their years of involvement with their sport increase. Because specific spine injuries like fracture, disc herniation, and spondylolysis are more frequent in football players, the resulting DDD and FD are greater than that of the general population. The weightlifting and violent hyperextension that are part of American football are independent risk factors for degenerative spine disease.

Does football cause an increase in degen... [Curr Sports Med Rep. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[jiggagold]

say theres 250 d1 college programs 85 is the limit per team, 21,000 players give or take

 

[mrplunkey]

I'm sure there will be slight degenerative disc diseases, alterations in the spine from contact but I hear more about back issues from the general population than from athletes (first hand experience here). Once a player signs that contract they put themselves at risk whether they know it or not. High risk high reward (in most cases)but at the same time a player can avoid further issues with pre and post rehabilitation during and after their career to counteract trauma to the spine. Its what is around the spine that protects it. And stabilizing, mobilizing and strengthening your lumbar and thoracic spine can protect you in the future.

Preventative medicine is the key.

Spinal trauma greatly accelerates degenerative spine disease. There are some things that can be done to stabilize and strengthen it, but there's a point of no return (i.e. massive herniation).

But this does bring us right back to the original argument. Professional athletes choose to put themselves at risk for a high risk/return job.

1) Adding physician-supervised hormone regimens to their existing risk profile isn't going to make it significantly worse.

2) Even if exogenous hormones are against the rules, it's up to the league to police them -- not congress.

 

[mrplunkey]

say theres 250 d1 college programs 85 is the limit per team, 21,000 players give or take

That's a great number to work with. It's fair to say no D1 college football player is going to have the same college experience as a full-time dedicated student. Academic corners simply have to be cut.

So we've got 21,000 players competing for 250 NFL spots that open-up per year? And how many of those 250 wash out the first year?

What's a typical plan "B" for a player that doesn't make it? Janitor? Drug dealer? Future felon?

So if we're really that worried about putting all those players at risk, don't crack down on AAS -- crack down on those 5,000 people per year who get used and dumped.

 

[jiggagold]

These pro athletes arent supervised first off, unless were only talking high profile athletes, the average joe schmoe in the league is going to take his buddys advice (even if its shit advice) and not air out his bizness to some doctor he doesnt know. Most of them dont know what their taking and really dont give a shit, as long as they see an ab, a new vein popping out, or feel like superman everyday they suit up. Someone will always be cheating, some get caught, some dont, its apart of the game.

But yes congress needs to stay the hell out its a joke.

 

[PICK3]

What's a typical plan "B" for a player that doesn't make it? Janitor? Drug dealer? Future felon?

turning tricks under the facade of the "Men's Room Attendant" title @ Cutter's

 

[mrplunkey]

These pro athletes arent supervised first off, unless were only talking high profile athletes, the average joe schmoe in the league is going to take his buddys advice (even if its shit advice) and not air out his bizness to some doctor he doesnt know. Most of them dont know what their taking and really dont give a shit, as long as they see an ab, a new vein popping out, or feel like superman everyday they suit up. Someone will always be cheating, some get caught, some dont, its apart of the game.

But yes congress needs to stay the hell out its a joke.

But the ones who take bad steroid advice are also going to take bad advice on training, diet, finances and any other aspect of their career.

Singling-out bad decisions regarding AAS use seems capricious and arbitrary.

 

[jiggagold]

That's a great number to work with. It's fair to say no D1 college football player is going to have the same college experience as a full-time dedicated student. Academic corners simply have to be cut.

So we've got 21,000 players competing for 250 NFL spots that open-up per year? And how many of those 250 wash out the first year?

What's a typical plan "B" for a player that doesn't make it? Janitor? Drug dealer? Future felon?

So if we're really that worried about putting all those players at risk, don't crack down on AAS -- crack down on those 5,000 people per year who get used and dumped.

Realistically I'd put the number around 3 thousand competing for those spots. You have to complete 3 years of college to be eligible for the draft.

 

[jiggagold]

But the ones who take bad steroid advice are also going to take bad advice on training, diet, finances and any other aspect of their career.

Singling-out bad decisions regarding AAS use seems capricious and arbitrary.

That is true as well, eventually they'll weed themselves out of the game, unless the AAS is what is keeping their foot in the door. Regardless of correct or incorrect administration.

Just legalize it all.

 

[redsamurai]

this post is asinine, do you just argue to argue, \

was that a rehetorical question?

 

[mrplunkey]

was that a rehetorical question?

Am I shocked that you understand the concept of a rhetorical question, even if you still can't spell it correctly?


(Yes, I am. And the above question was "rehetorical" too!)

 

[PICK3]

Am I shocked that you understand the concept of a rhetorical question, even if you still can't spell it correctly?


(Yes, I am. And the above statement was a "rehetorical" question too!)

ololololol!

 

[redsamurai]

Spinal trauma greatly accelerates degenerative spine disease. There are some things that can be done to stabilize and strengthen it, but there's a point of no return (i.e. massive herniation).

But this does bring us right back to the original argument. Professional athletes choose to put themselves at risk for a high risk/return job.

1) Adding physician-supervised hormone regimens to their existing risk profile isn't going to make it significantly worse.

2) Even if exogenous hormones are against the rules, it's up to the league to police them -- not congress.

Yes, we are back to the original argument..thanks to jigga not you. Anyway...your argument still does not hold any water whatsoever. A football player knows what he's getting into from the time he plays high school ball. There's time in the gym and time on the field, end of discussion. An environment where pro athletes have no choice but to take exogenous hormones, no matter how clinically supervised they are....you don't know what you're getting into. Long term effects of steroids is still cloudy. Regular people should be able to make those decisions for themselves but not athletes competing with each other to put food on their table. Because the Athletes WILL begin taking more hormones than their doctor is prescribing and we're back to the beginning. Athletes eat, sleep and train for a living and they get the best of all of it....they should be the ones pushing the limits of human boundaries without becoming a synthetic organism.

 

[ledhead]

Fuck Congress! God made steroids for a reason, so people like me can look great... Anyone, on this board who does not use steroids should be banned automatically!!! Congress are haters, they do not care about people one bit. When you get down to brass tacks, I assure you economics is the fundamental reason why they are on another witch-hunt to hang athletes... Steroids, when taking correctly make society better... Steroids are drugs that people put to good use unlike recreational and psych drugs that make people commit serious crimes. Moreover, those drugs make people slothful, therefore, they cannot hold a job. Steroids motivate people in every aspect of life...bottom line, end of the story...

 

[mrplunkey]

Yes, we are back to the original argument..thanks to jigga not you. Anyway...your argument still does not hold any water whatsoever. A football player knows what he's getting into from the time he plays high school ball. There's time in the gym and time on the field, end of discussion. An environment where pro athletes have no choice but to take exogenous hormones, no matter how clinically supervised they are....you don't know what you're getting into. Long term effects of steroids is still cloudy. Regular people should be able to make those decisions for themselves but not athletes competing with each other to put food on their table. Because the Athletes WILL begin taking more hormones than their doctor is prescribing and we're back to the beginning. Athletes eat, sleep and train for a living and they get the best of all of it....they should be the ones pushing the limits of human boundaries without becoming a synthetic organism.

Long-term effects of repeated blows to the head are just as bad or even worse than steroids.

Using your logic, we should also ban all forms of contact to the head because "athletes competing with each other to put food on their table" shouldn't be forced into an environment where they must accept blows to the head in order to compete.

 

[redsamurai]

Long-term effects of repeated blows to the head are just as bad or even worse than steroids.

Using your logic, we should also ban all forms of contact to the head because "athletes competing with each other to put food on their table" shouldn't be forced into an environment where they must accept blows to the head in order to compete.

and what has the NFL front office been busy with lately? Do you watch or follow football at all? I thought you did. If not my bad.

 

[redsamurai]

in any case the very nature of football is hard physical contact, and players know that from pee wee on. When children are playing pee wee are they being educated on future roid cycles? Ur still not making any sense whatsoever....what problem are you having? Where is your malfunction?

 

[mrplunkey]

in any case the very nature of football is hard physical contact, and players know that from pee wee on. When children are playing pee wee are they being educated on future roid cycles? Ur still not making any sense whatsoever....what problem are you having? Where is your malfunction?

Ahhh... so the very nature of football is hard physical contact. So of course they wouldn't need the increased strength, size, speed and recovery that AAS can offer.



And of course I don't make any sense to you. That's what makes this enjoyable. It's almost like we live on completely separate planets and I'm quite pleased the world works this way.

 

[redsamurai]

Ahhh... so the very nature of football is hard physical contact. So of course they wouldn't need the increased strength, size, speed and recovery that AAS can offer.

Of course they could "use it" moron...this isn't a debate about the efficacy of steroids you old fool. The point is that most people don't want to be "forced" into supplanting their natural hormone production and possibly effecting it for life.

It's almost like we live on completely separate planets and

this is just dawning on you isn't it? See the thing is i'm on planet "earth"....where might you be from ole boy?

 

[mrplunkey]

Of course they could "use it" moron...this isn't a debate about the efficacy of steroids you old fool. The point is that most people don't want to be "forced" into supplanting their natural hormone production and possibly effecting it for life.

Ahhh... but they like being "forced" into degenerative joint disease, traumatic brain injury, degenerative spinal disease and a thwarted education.

Makes perfect sense now that you've explained it that way!

this is just dawning on you isn't it? See the thing is i'm on planet "earth"....where might you be from ole boy?

That explains it! I'm from the one that is properly capitalized.

Good catch.

 

[redsamurai]

Ahhh... but they like being "forced" into degenerative joint disease, traumatic brain injury, degenerative spinal disease and a thwarted education.

Again, now for what the 3rd or 4th time?, this is what any football player signs up for when they decide to play the game of football. And they know it from pee wee on. If you were an athlete in any shape or form you'd intrinsically understand this. If you play baseball, there's certain things you have to do to play that game...same with gymnastics, golf,etc etc. If taking synthetic hormones is part of these sports, like football pads are to football, whey aren't we giving them to pee wee leaguers? Are you suggesting it's ok to start 8-12 year olds on cycles?

 

[mrplunkey]

Again, now for what the 3rd or 4th time?, this is what any football player signs up for when they decide to play the game of football. And they know it from pee wee on. If you were an athlete in any shape or form you'd intrinsically understand this. If you play baseball, there's certain things you have to do to play that game...same with gymnastics, golf,etc etc. If taking synthetic hormones is part of these sports, like football pads are to football, whey aren't we giving them to pee wee leaguers? Are you suggesting it's ok to start 8-12 year olds on cycles?

And they also sign-up to be big, strong and fast. That's where AAS and genetics come into play.

P.S. It's nice to see the quote system still kicking your ass.

 

[redsamurai]

And they also sign-up to be big, strong and fast. That's where AAS and genetics come into play.

P.S. It's nice to see the quote system still kicking your ass.

is that even a rational statement? I can't even tell anymore. You're just babbling on now. Jigga had you pegged when he said you just argue to argue. YOu make no sense whatsoever.

 

[mrplunkey]

is that even a rational statement? I can't even tell anymore. You're just babbling on now. Jigga had you pegged when he said you just argue to argue. YOu make no sense whatsoever.

This does not surprise me. Anyone with an IQ over 90 might as well be speaking Greek to you.

u mad?

 

[redsamurai]

They're signing up to play football moron, not sell thier lives away.

u mad?

 

[mrplunkey]

They're signing up to play football moron, not sell thier lives away.

u mad?

Right. Signing-up for degenerative joint disease, traumatic brain injuries, defective education but not the nebulous effects of steroid use!

This entertains me.

BTW... you've posted before about back and heart problems. Were either of those weight training or steroid related?

 

[redsamurai]

Right. Signing-up for degenerative joint disease, traumatic brain injuries, defective education but not the nebulous effects of steroid use!

None of which requires anabolic steroids to overcome...none of it. Would AAS get them back on the field sooner, of course. As for degenerative joint disease that is a laughable assertion....only happens to the guys that don't take care of themselves. There's that "personal responsability" you're always talking about. Howie Long looks like crap doesn't he? Strahan looks like he'll be using a walker soon too doesn't he?

BTW... you've posted before about back and heart problems. Were either of those weight training or steroid related?

no idea. Honestly. The cleveland clinc told me it was possible AAS had something to do with my heart issue but nothing could be said for certain as they really didn't know what was going on with me in the first place.

 

[mrplunkey]

None of which requires anabolic steroids to overcome...none of it. Would AAS get them back on the field sooner, of course. As for degenerative joint disease that is a laughable assertion....only happens to the guys that don't take care of themselves. There's that "personal responsability" you're always talking about. Howie Long looks like crap doesn't he? Strahan looks like he'll be using a walker soon too doesn't he?

You missed the entire point. This has nothing to do with using steroids to overcome anything.

You don't think steroids should be allowed in sports because it sets a de facto standard for the use of substances with possible negative downstream effects. But players are already sign-up for a whole host of negative downstream effects, many of which are far more measurable and deleterious than the effects of AAS.


That's what makes your logic terribly flawed. You'd be far better off to argue that steroids are against league rules, which is an entirely different line of reasoning.

no idea. Honestly. The cleveland clinc told me it was possible AAS had something to do with my heart issue but nothing could be said for certain as they really didn't know what was going on with me in the first place.

So you are projecting your own terrible decisions onto other peoples' freedom to use AAS?

P.S. Quote system is still kicking your ass!

 

[redsamurai]

You missed the entire point. This has nothing to do with using steroids to overcome anything.

You don't think steroids should be allowed in sports because it sets a de facto standard for the use of substances with possible negative downstream effects. But players are already sign-up for a whole host of negative downstream effects, many of which are far more measurable and deleterious than the effects of AAS.

no, you're missing the point...there are inherent things you have to accept when doing anything physical in this world. People who work on farms for a living know they're gonna have to keep watch on their backs. Replacing your natural hormones with synthetic ones is not what you think of when you're a kid wanting to play sports. There were people walking 2000 some years ago that were able to do everything AND WAY MORE than what athletes today are capable of....were people mixing up tren in their basements back then?

That's what makes your logic terribly flawed. You'd be far better off to argue that steroids are against league rules, which is an entirely different line of reasoning.

I don't see how. Marijuana is against league rules but yet has ZERO performance enhancing qualities.

So you are projecting your own terrible decisions onto other peoples' freedom to use AAS?

P.S. Quote system is still kicking your as

Ummm, no...where am i projecting? I beleive I emphatically stated that anyone on this board, who is obviously not a professional athlete, should be able to do as they please with their own bodies. Stated that numerous times you should seek to increase your reading comprehension.

 

[mrplunkey]

no, you're missing the point...there are inherent things you have to accept when doing anything physical in this world. People who work on farms for a living know they're gonna have to keep watch on their backs. Replacing your natural hormones with synthetic ones is not what you think of when you're a kid wanting to play sports. There were people walking 2000 some years ago that were able to do everything AND WAY MORE than what athletes today are capable of....were people mixing up tren in their basements back then?



I don't see how. Marijuana is against league rules but yet has ZERO performance enhancing qualities.



Ummm, no...where am i projecting? I beleive I emphatically stated that anyone on this board, who is obviously not a professional athlete, should be able to do as they please with their own bodies. Stated that numerous times you should seek to increase your reading comprehension.

I've got to hear the BS reasoning behind this claim.

Please elaborate.

 

[redsamurai]

"An analysis of the footsteps of [an Australian aboriginal from 20,000 years ago], dubbed T8, shows he reached speeds of 37 kph on a soft, muddy lake edge. [World record holder Usain] Bolt, by comparison, reached a top speed of 42 kph during his then world 100 meters record of 9.69 seconds at last year’s Beijing Olympics. With modern training, spiked shoes and rubberized tracks, aboriginal hunters might have reached speeds of 45 kph."

Our best athlete today can hold that output for 9 seconds...these guys did that in bare feet all day long.

"Modern soldiers are expected to be able to march 25 miles in a day with a 55lb pack Roman soldiers walked nearly 40 miles a day with fifty pounds of supplies."

and these were Romans, who compared to the Spartans were pussies. Spartans could wear full armor plus that much in pack and run somewhere, drop the pack and commence combat.

“The human body is very plastic and it responds to stress. We have lost 40 percent of the shafts of our long bones because we have much less of a muscular load placed upon them these days. We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven’t developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes, doesn’t come close to replicating that.”


lots to find on this subject.

 

[mrplunkey]

"An analysis of the footsteps of [an Australian aboriginal from 20,000 years ago], dubbed T8, shows he reached speeds of 37 kph on a soft, muddy lake edge. [World record holder Usain] Bolt, by comparison, reached a top speed of 42 kph during his then world 100 meters record of 9.69 seconds at last year’s Beijing Olympics. With modern training, spiked shoes and rubberized tracks, aboriginal hunters might have reached speeds of 45 kph."

Our best athlete today can hold that output for 9 seconds...these guys did that in bare feet all day long.

"Modern soldiers are expected to be able to march 25 miles in a day with a 55lb pack Roman soldiers walked nearly 40 miles a day with fifty pounds of supplies."

and these were Romans, who compared to the Spartans were pussies. Spartans could wear full armor plus that much in pack and run somewhere, drop the pack and commence combat.

“The human body is very plastic and it responds to stress. We have lost 40 percent of the shafts of our long bones because we have much less of a muscular load placed upon them these days. We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven’t developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes, doesn’t come close to replicating that.”


lots to find on this subject.

Link to peer reviewed published articles?

 

[redsamurai]

Link to peer reviewed published articles?

"google"

 

[mrplunkey]

"google"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and call it now: It's some guy trying to pimp a book that successfully got to you.

You're a marketer's dream.

Mark my words, I'll sell you some "locally-grown, all-natural, 100% organic" something someday.

 

[redsamurai]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and call it now: It's some guy trying to pimp a book that successfully got to you.

You're a marketer's dream.

Mark my words, I'll sell you some "locally-grown, all-natural, 100% organic" something someday.

1) it was from an anthropology dept.
2) Oh god go back to the godzilla avi

 

[mrplunkey]

1) it was from an anthropology dept.
2) Oh god go back to the godzilla avi

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0733623913

Busted.

 

[redsamurai]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0733623913

Busted.

the quote was from a university anthro dept, maybe it was the guy who wrote that book i have no idea. Same with the other quotes, but not from the same dept.

 

[redsamurai]

thanks for that find though I may have to pick that book up. Maybe that's the book where they talk about the tracks they found from dudes 20k years ago running near 30 mph through mud.....I'm sorry but that's just eye opening. Maybe not to you but who cares you don't matter any.

 

[mrplunkey]

the quote was from a university anthro dept, maybe it was the guy who wrote that book i have no idea. Same with the other quotes, but not from the same dept.

They are quotes from the book he's pimping.

You are a marketer's dream.

 

[redsamurai]

but they came from an anthropology dept, that I already established. So he may be regurgitating information, fine....it's still valid. Try again.

 

[redsamurai]

but you don't need to go back 20k years, even the Spartans were doing things not even the most gifted athletes or soldiers on the planet could do. MIT is building an exo skeleton for soldiers to wear so they haul the amount of weight over distance that the spartans did over 2k years ago, and they were all sub 200lbs.

 

[PICK3]

most elaborate foreplay ever!

just flip a coin to see which of you two Mo's take bottom

 

[redsamurai]

most elaborate foreplay ever!

just flip a coin to see which of you two Mo's take bottom

I don't do doughy white hayseeds who look like Rush Limbaughs younger brother...and you know he does.

 

[PICK3]

I don't do doughy white hayseeds who look like Rush Limbaughs younger brother...and you know he does.

I was thinking you'd prob be teh bottom

 

[redsamurai]

I was thinking you'd prob be teh bottom

gross dude, you can keep your skype sessions with him leave me out of it.

 

[jiggagold]

Great thread but plunk you're forgetting that people play these sports because theyre fun and a possibility of a high payout for short term work and also free schooling. They put aside future physical problems on the back burner. No high schooler is turning down a scholarship because they may have back problems or joint issues.

 

[mrplunkey]

I was thinking you'd prob be teh bottom

Don't get his hopes up.

 

[mrplunkey]

Great thread but plunk you're forgetting that people play these sports because theyre fun and a possibility of a high payout for short term work and also free schooling. They put aside future physical problems on the back burner. No high schooler is turning down a scholarship because they may have back problems or joint issues.

I agree. Sports start as fun and entertainment. As today's kids enter high school, it becomes a part-time job. Then as they enter college, players are completely consumed by their sport in virtually all the premier programs.

As players progress into professional sports, they should have the option to participate in a physician-supervised AAS program. These programs are perfectly legal, but are supposedly prohibited by professional sports (despite their obvious widespread use). Considering all existing downstream risks a professional player assumes, the consequences of responsible steroid use is negligible.

I'm the guy who is all-for the legalization of drugs, as long as I don't have to subsidize them. Professional athletes with the means to participate in a physician-supervised program should (I'm sure there will be exceptions) also have the means to deal with the downstream consequences as well (i.e. the NFL Retirement Health Benefit Plan).

 

[redsamurai]

Don't get his hopes up.

Even if I was gay for you I woudln't have my hopes up with your erectile dysfunction.

 

[mrplunkey]

Even if I was gay for you I woudln't have my hopes up with your erectile dysfunction.

Damn... there you go with the creepy thing again.

 

[redsamurai]

As players progress into professional sports, they should have the option to participate in a physician-supervised AAS program. These programs are perfectly legal, but are supposedly prohibited by professional sports (despite their obvious widespread use). Considering all existing downstream risks a professional player assumes, the consequences of responsible steroid use is negligible.

).

It's either all in or nothing on that one...if one does it everyone has to do it. You just don't get that you can't promote an environment that "forces" people to subjugate their natural hormone production. And then once it's physician supervised they'll augment with even more use, and yes we know that at certain points these guys will start dropping on the field cause their hearts will explode.....and you can physician supervise as much as you want, that's gonna happen. These guys will be popping anadrol right before the game....i mean are you kidding me? Have you thought ANY of this through or are your fingers just punching keys?

 

[mrplunkey]

It's either all in or nothing on that one...if one does it everyone has to do it. You just don't get that you can't promote an environment that "forces" people to subjugate their natural hormone production. And then once it's physician supervised they'll augment with even more use, and yes we know that at certain points these guys will start dropping on the field cause their hearts will explode.....and you can physician supervise as much as you want, that's gonna happen. These guys will be popping anadrol right before the game....i mean are you kidding me? Have you thought ANY of this through or are your fingers just punching keys?

Wow!

I guess it's a good thing none of the NFL players use AAS now then.

 

[redsamurai]

Wow!

I guess it's a good thing none of the NFL players use AAS now then.

and the only reason why all of em don't do it is because there's a risk factor of getting suspended for 4 games for the first offense. I don't have a problem with those guys that do use because they're running the risk of getting caught, there is an immediate downside to what they're doing. Shawn Merriman was the never the same after he got busted for Deca, when he came back he was a shadow of his former self. Guys see that and know that if you play with it and get burnt, you get burnt real bad. Take away that check and everybody starts doing it guys have zero choice in the matter. On the surface it sounds like a good thing for everyone including the fans, we get to see our guys back out on the field sooner....but the downsides start when the guys start taking more roids on their own outside of the doctors prepscriptions. I will agree with you on one thign, when a dude is rehabbing an injury he should be allowed to use whatever is at his disposal. But once he's back out there it's back to a level playing field. Otherwise these guys will push and push each other till one of em has his heart blow up on him on the field. It "WILL" happen. This rationalization should work even on the distant quasar you're from.

 

[mrplunkey]

and the only reason why all of em don't do it is because there's a risk factor of getting suspended for 4 games for the first offense.

I get it now! It's just like how we can't make pot legal for the general public because then even more people would use it. And like you said... "And then once it's physician supervised they'll augment with even more use".

So professional atheltes with the means to deal with downstream effects of AAS = forbidden!

Potheads, some of who will lack the means to deal with downstream effects of pot = anything goes!

It must be fun on your planet.

 

[mrplunkey]

And if testosterone leads to anadrol then clearly pot leads to heroin.

Good times!

 

[PICK3]

Even if I was gay.

ololololol! @ "if"

 

[redsamurai]

And if testosterone leads to anadrol then clearly pot leads to heroin.

Good times!

ummm no, not if you knew anything in the slightest about the comparison you were making. Stop talking about what you don't have a clue. I'm pretty sure there's some people on the board who might be able to verify just how far from weed heroin is. And I can personally vouch for how close test and dbol/drol are.

You make one stupid statement right after another.