Circumcision - a serious discussion

[Lestat]

Are their studies to back this up ? Infants cannot feel pain... so you are saying all post-birth infants should undergo surgery without anaesthesia ? You are saying that shock caused by trauma is impossible. Colour stimuli to a colour blind person ? That effect would be zero ... so you are effectively saying that the usual mechanisms by which we identify pain response in an adult are inappropriate and therefore the child's responses are entirely random. That seems to be contradicted not only by intuition (Zen like) but vast amounts of evidence from most parents - kid falls - kid starts to cry - absolutely bizarre ideas but I'd love to read studies presenting evidence for the inability of the child to register pain. Genuinely


How does one objectively measure pain if not by pain response ? Genuinely interested.

There have been studies to show that infants are SUPER sensitized to pain and that the pain from circumcision can leave lasting permanent effects on the psyche.

 

[Lestat]

I gotta say thanks to everyone for making this thread a success and keeping it civil and intelligent (for the most part).

 

[spongebob]

I gotta say thanks to everyone for making this thread a success and keeping it civil and intelligent (for the most part).

fuck you!

 

[Lestat]

fuck you!

I should have known a thread about penis would be wildly popular around these parts.

 

[BrothaBill]

There have been studies to show that infants are SUPER sensitized to pain and that the pain from circumcision can leave lasting permanent effects on the psyche.

I think I covered this with ulter, as someone that studied psych you should know that the baby has a tabula rasa and they have no reference or attachment to assign to the lil electrical impulses conveyed to the empty blank slate of a mind. They simply register on a voltometer as minute electron transfers from the nerve endings. They dont mean anything to them as they dont know what pain is. As a cognitive researcher I can pick apart any junk science study that says they can measure the pain of an infant, it simply is impossible, junk studies only measure observers opinions of what the pain is that the infant is feeling, its their perception those studies measure. Its crazy the junk that people throw up on this subject and used to bolster an untrue biased position. The lasting effects on the psyche is even farther afield from the notion of an infants pain. There is absolutely no way using psyche research to make such a statement. It simply cannot be studied. Give me an example of how you can design an experiment or study that could measure that. It simply is impossible and I have experience with setting up real world cognitive studies that have been published, Im telling you that its impossible to design one at all. People throw up these bogus studies as if they are the truth but it is just another form of lying using scientific terms. The methodology is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Mr. dB]

I should have known a thread about penis would be wildly popular around these parts.

But of course! Everyone either has one or wants one in them.

 

[spongebob]

I think I covered this with ulter, as someone that studied psych you should know that the baby has a tabula rasa and they have no reference or attachment to assign to the lil electrical impulses conveyed to the empty blank slate of a mind. They simply register on a voltometer as minute electron transfers from the nerve endings. They dont mean anything to them as they dont know what pain is. As a cognitive researcher I can pick apart any junk science study that says they can measure the pain of an infant, it simply is impossible, junk studies only measure observers opinions of what the pain is that the infant is feeling, its their perception those studies measure. Its crazy the junk that people throw up on this subject and used to bolster an untrue biased position. The lasting effects on the psyche is even farther afield from the notion of an infants pain. There is absolutely no way using psyche research to make such a statement. It simply cannot be studied. Give me an example of how you can design an experiment or study that could measure that. It simply is impossible and I have experience with setting up real world cognitive studies that have been published, Im telling you that its impossible to design one at all. People throw up these bogus studies as if they are the truth but it is just another form of lying using scientific terms. The methodology is utterly ridiculous.

i think what people are wanting to know is, the basic question. why do they scream and cry? that is what people associate with pain.

 

[BrothaBill]

i think what people are wanting to know is, the basic question. why do they scream and cry? that is what people associate with pain.

At that point it is biological wiring nothing more, its a simple algorhythm based on tiny electrical impulses, these very same impulses are generated naturally invitro, sorta testing the system, the actual conclusion that one can infer is that the growth of the fetus scars the psyche as all of the systems fire and refire in the womb. The very act of being scars the psyche. Does that make sense?

 

[spongebob]

At that point it is biological wiring nothing more, its a simple algorhythm based on tiny electrical impulses, these very same impulses are generated naturally invitro, sorta testing the system, the actual conclusion that one can infer is that the growth of the fetus scars the psyche as all of the systems fire and refire in the womb. The very act of being scars the psyche. Does that make sense?

yes.

i think your saying it is just a programmed response, at this point learned in the womb.

but i think we need to still define what pain is. right. at what point does an infant begin to feel pain the way that i feel it today?

and would it be difficult to do a foreskin removal procedure in the womb. probably stupid and really not neccesary but im curious.

 

[Lestat]

I think I covered this with ulter, as someone that studied psych you should know that the baby has a tabula rasa and they have no reference or attachment to assign to the lil electrical impulses conveyed to the empty blank slate of a mind. They simply register on a voltometer as minute electron transfers from the nerve endings. They dont mean anything to them as they dont know what pain is. As a cognitive researcher I can pick apart any junk science study that says they can measure the pain of an infant, it simply is impossible, junk studies only measure observers opinions of what the pain is that the infant is feeling, its their perception those studies measure. Its crazy the junk that people throw up on this subject and used to bolster an untrue biased position. The lasting effects on the psyche is even farther afield from the notion of an infants pain. There is absolutely no way using psyche research to make such a statement. It simply cannot be studied. Give me an example of how you can design an experiment or study that could measure that. It simply is impossible and I have experience with setting up real world cognitive studies that have been published, Im telling you that its impossible to design one at all. People throw up these bogus studies as if they are the truth but it is just another form of lying using scientific terms. The methodology is utterly ridiculous.

from your explanation the following can be concluded.

You can no more say that it does NOT permanently scar the baby's psyche anymore then I can say it does, since you said yourself it cannot be studied or measures.

Therefor, I would error on the side of caution with my child, and NOT go slicing off pieces of living tissue from my newborn.