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Bulking and cutting??!!
- Thread starter 6four
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My bad didn't see where I couldve out that in. Umm I'm 23. Body stats? What u mean I'd guess I'm about 12-13% bf. Ive been training for about 2 years. And i do just about all the compounds with very minimal isos. I eat about 6-8 times a day. And my goal is to look fit and not skinny. I'm 6'4 and now 205 down from my bulk at 220
I was thinking about that. I find that difficult cause I need so much cals daily. But what's clean tho? And would I lose fat n gain mass/muscle?
Yea my goal is to get slightly bigger and to lose some fat. I track my cals I shoot for about 3500 daily with at least 1 gram of protein per pound. I mean rough around the edges because I'm not making my goals so I got to be doing something wrong
So shoot for 4000/cals? And I work out 4 days a week. And yes i do know. What is a ckd? It's pretty hard to eat 4000 lean calories a day
Ok cool thanks. Any other tips?
Yes. I'd try going up to around 4000 if your weight gains have stagnated.
When people say "eat clean," basically you need to just stay away from high GI carbs and excessive amounts of saturated fats. And obviously stay away from fast food. My weight is similar to yours, so I know what you mean about it being hard. There's different tricks you can use to make it easier though, particularly if you don't mind having a monotonous diet. I think you already mentioned you eat 6+ times a day. You can do things like blending up uncooked oats and mixing them with protein powder and milk. Right there you can injest 2 cups of oats, 2 cups of milk, and 2 scoops of protein for something like (~300+~260+~260) 820 calories which can be consumed in ~30 seconds. Two of those a day and then eating regular sized meals like a normal person and you're up there.
O sweet those are great tips right there. Ima eat. Tho also I have oats that are just sitting around. Sweet. My workout routine is 4 days a week chest, back, legs, shoulders. Mainly compounds like bench presses flat incline and decline I switch between that on weeks. All my exercises range from 6-12 reps. I try to stay low tho about 3 sets each. Deadlifts. Squts hang clean and presses. Preacher curls. But mainly deadlifts squts bench presses and hang clean and press
SolarEmpire44
Banned
Bulking and cutting is fuking stupid.. You dont have to get fat to put on muscle, i fall for that trap before and i paid for it later.. You have to eat clean calories to put on muscle and burn fat, you also need a intense weight training routine to put on muscle and a good cardio to burn fat, some supplements wouldnt hurt either like creatine.. Do not eat any carbs around your cardio (2hrs before and 2-3 hrs after) thats pointless, Cut carbs 5 hours before bed and and just eat protein and HEALTHY FAT not garbage fats, carbs should come from brown rice, oats and beans and sweet potato IMO these are the best carb sources.
In short:
High GI carbs are typically sugary foods, stuff high in simple sugars. Candy, table sugar, white bread, white potatoes etc. These types of foods spike your insulin levels. Insulin is an anabolic hormone which tells your body to grow. Depending on what you just did and are about to do, this could be good or bad. If its right after an intense workout, then its good. If you've been sitting on your ass all day doing nothing, then its bad. If your insulin/blood sugar levels are spiked, your body will not burn fat to produce energy. This is why solar said above not to consume carbs around a cardio session. Conversely, low GI carbs are like those listed by solar above. Google glycemic index.
High GI carbs are typically sugary foods, stuff high in simple sugars. Candy, table sugar, white bread, white potatoes etc. These types of foods spike your insulin levels. Insulin is an anabolic hormone which tells your body to grow. Depending on what you just did and are about to do, this could be good or bad. If its right after an intense workout, then its good. If you've been sitting on your ass all day doing nothing, then its bad. If your insulin/blood sugar levels are spiked, your body will not burn fat to produce energy. This is why solar said above not to consume carbs around a cardio session. Conversely, low GI carbs are like those listed by solar above. Google glycemic index.
Yes, if you eat carbs shortly before cardio, your body will burn the carbs before it will use fat.
Red potatoes=white potatoes=~85 GI=one of the highest GI foods you can possibly eat. For reference if you ingested straight glucose that would be 100 GI.
Milk is ok before bed (though it does have some carbs in it). Whey and Casein powder are ok, casein is better before bed because it digests slower.
Understand that your body can either be anabolic (growing) or catabolic (shrinking) at any given time. Any time you want to be gaining muscle AND losing fat, usually the only way to do this without steroids or newb gains is by alternating periods of anabolism and catabolism. This is what these guys are referring to when they talk about lean bulks and not eating carbs around cardio etc. There are various techniques that can be used to get the body to partition more nutrients into muscle, as opposed to fat, in periods of anabolism, and partition nutrients away from fat, as opposed to muscle, during periods of catabolism. That's also one of the principles of a CKD.
Red potatoes=white potatoes=~85 GI=one of the highest GI foods you can possibly eat. For reference if you ingested straight glucose that would be 100 GI.
Milk is ok before bed (though it does have some carbs in it). Whey and Casein powder are ok, casein is better before bed because it digests slower.
Understand that your body can either be anabolic (growing) or catabolic (shrinking) at any given time. Any time you want to be gaining muscle AND losing fat, usually the only way to do this without steroids or newb gains is by alternating periods of anabolism and catabolism. This is what these guys are referring to when they talk about lean bulks and not eating carbs around cardio etc. There are various techniques that can be used to get the body to partition more nutrients into muscle, as opposed to fat, in periods of anabolism, and partition nutrients away from fat, as opposed to muscle, during periods of catabolism. That's also one of the principles of a CKD.
really OP you must educate yourself about bodybuilding nutririon this cannot be stressed enough . start reading all you can and i would suggest buying a good book on the subject like one or two of lyle mcdonald's books they cover all of what you need to know , check out his site . if you dont have a basic understanding of this type of nutrition you really are shooting yourself in the foot and will just end up spinning your wheels . all the people that make proggress are the ones that understand nutrition n diet .
Good point. I thought I understood and knew more than I did. That's why I said I was still a little rough around the edges cuz of course there are things I still don't know and/or understand. So no carbs before bed or cardio. What's good to eat before either? You said milk has carbs in it and that casein is ok. And I don't wanna go catabolic while sleeping or during cardio.
misguided03
New member
My nutritionist is strongly opposed to caesin he says it causes prostate cancer he recommends a solid source protein before bed or 100% whey
100% whey and that's it?
SolarEmpire44
Banned
Yes, no carbs 4-5 hours before bed and no carbs around cardio time.. Before bed Drink a whey isolate with 1tbs of almond butter or drink your casein shake only if its low carbs (lower than 3-5), also NO MILK before bed.. 20-30 mins before cardio drink whey isolate and drink another one 20-30 min after..
Hope this helped you out
So when you say a isolate i usually drink 100% gold standard optimum nutrition. Is that ok before bed? And eggs? The white or yolk included? And only ear carbs during the day but not before cardio and bed ok got it! What about before workouts? And I really appreciate all the help. I was reading that fiberous carbs are ok before bed like corn broccoli string beans. True?
SolarEmpire44
Banned
Yes ON gold standard is ok, egg yolk is not the best option for fat consumption eat the whites only, fats from almond butter and flax are great before bed egg yolk is not, not saying its bad but this is what i call lean bulk you cant eat crap, ppl who bulk and cut eat these crap all the time and say you cant build muscle and burn fat at the same time but science tells me you can do both but you have to be very strict.. Anyway, before and after workout you need carbs, you must eat most of your carbs around your workout time, its very important, before workout eat any complex carbs i mentioned brown rice and sweet potatoe are the best option with lean protein and a protein shake with a banana after workout 1 hour after pwo shake have a solid meal with lean protein and complex carbs dont drink dextrose post workout like most ppl tell you, its fuking garbage you will get fat..
Broccoli and asparagus are fine but others are not..
BraveHeart7247
New member
Research the Paleo Diet, u can read the primal blueprint by Mark Scisson or the Paleo Solution by Rob wolf, I started eating Paleo about 2 months ago and with intense training cut my bodyfat from 23% down to 17% my goal is about 10% both books are good reads!
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Ok man u got alot of info. Thanks for it all. So peanuts I usually eat them are they a complex carb? I got rice which is cool oats plenty of protein. How's corn as something for dinner also before bed? And during the day I'm only able to eat sandwiches lunchmeat and tuna I switch between the 2. Is that ok to eat? N of course on whole wheat bread
BraveHeart7247
New member
No bread man, read up on Paleo, the human body is not designed to eat wheat, grains none of that. Read The Primal Blueprint, by Mark Scisson, there was no such thing as bread when the cavemen lived and there was no such thing as a fat caveman, people are gonna think I'm crazy, but read the book and u will see the science behind a Paleo lifestyle, eat all the meat, fresh veggies, u want, no bread, wheat, grain, oats, and u will see the fat drop off, give it a read.
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ok ill tell you what i eat . i IF(16/8 to 18/6 depending on daily scedule) i have 4 meals a day, 1 pre w/o pro+hi gi carbs (no fat) , 1 post w/o pro+hi gi carbs again(no fat) then another pro+LOADS of veg's+fat, last meal at 7pm which is 8 egg whites cooked+3 yolks(raw free range)+1can tuna+15g fish oil +2 tea soon ground up flax seed . i didnt mention milk infact i dont drink milk(its so processed n f+++d around with + lactose aint the best carb in the world) i prefer natrual yogurt in fact thats my pre n post w/o food yogurt n cheerios . gota love them cheerios.
like i said buy a few books , read em , read up on the net n learn do it like your preparing for a test or something and in 6 months you'll realise how little you knew and in a year you'll be able to tune and tweek your diet for yourself . also you must get into the habbit of starting to prepare/weigh/bag/label/freeze food in advance this is another area where people fall down . as for grains and bread n stuff leave that alone i havent eaten bread/grains/rice for about 18 years . the only processed food i eat is really CHEERIOS coz i luv em .....................
Ok I will read around. But it's so many different things on the net idk what to believe lol. Like a couple of places say that milk is great for u. And whole grain foods are to. No matter if it was bread rice oats. Long as it is whole grain. It's has a low gi index and that it's ok to eat. Meats people say the same things eat them which I do. Veggies some say dont eat canned veggies. Some say they are fine. Snack foods some people say peanuts are great some say it's not. I will just gather all the info and see what's works best for me. Also. So no breads. What's something I can eat during the day? I don't have access to a nuke machine until I get home which is around 5pm. My meals are like this. Wake up around 5am eat either oats, wheaties fuel lol, or while wheat bagel w/ cream cream milk. Take some fish oil and some multivitamins w/ milk. 7am I drink some whey in milk. 9am a pbnj on whole wheat bread. 11am either tuna or lunchmeat on whole wheat. 1pm again either Tuna or lunchmeat on whole wheat. 2pm (to increase my calorie intake) 1 sandwich from a fast food spot. 4pm some peanuts while I'm driving home for my pre w/o snack. 5pm I eat a banana right before I w/o. I w/o then i drink some whey. 2 scoops in water. Btw I drink lots of water thru out the day. That's usually around 6-30pm. 8pm is dinner I usually eat meats either fish chicken turkey. Something like that. A can of veggies and some whole wheat pasta, rice something like that. I eat that. Take more fish oil and multivitamins. And drink some gaterade. Then around 10pm I drink a glass of milk before bed and wake up and repeat the process. So this isn't a good diet? Btw I follow this when I work mon-fri on the weekends it changes a bit. Thanks for the help. Again this is what I eat now.
dont look to bad but try and have some protein with the oats first thing and swap the gatoraid from after dinner and have it pwo with the whey n you would be better dropping the rice or pasta and just have veg's with your dinner around 8pm and i personally would only have no more than 200 ml of milk as milk is 5g carb per 100ml or swapping it for some casien . there is so much info about this n that it is hard to know what to believe ,tinned vegs aint too bad there vegs at the end of the day and the same goes with bread not too bad but again theres alot better things to have and most people me included will agree how much better you feel when you abstain from bread/flour/grains and processed junk . 3 places to start reading and checking out are the sites of lyle mcdonald , john beradi and dr clay hyght also check out glycemicindex.kom
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And seeing as tho I need so much calories for mantaining. I just need a alternative to replace it. I searched but can't find nothing
There's no one right answer as to what you should be eating. Most of these principles people are talking about which include categorical exclusions of things (ie don't eat bread) tend to be techniques that people use to prevent themselves from overeating/under eating/whatever the case may be. For example, if you were eating a diet which contained NO processed carbs at all, and all carbs came from fruit or vegetables, it would be insanely hard to get fat on such a diet for various reasons.
On the other hand, you could design a diet which was let's say 40% carb, 40% protein, 20% fat, in which all of the carbs came from wheat bread and milk (to pick on two things people above are disapproving of). If you followed this diet, ate the right macros, timed your nutrients appropriately, and ate at a ~500 calorie deficit, you'd cut fat. If you did the same and ate at a 500 calorie surplus, and assuming you were working out appropriately, you'd gain muscle. By contrast, you could design a diet which produces the same results and which had you eating only 30 carbs per day, none from bread and none from milk.
There's no one size fits all. Things that are bad for you to do on one type of diet are not bad on another type. If you're on a low carb diet then you can't be eating much, if any, bread. If you aren't on a low carb diet then you can. Some diet types work better for some people. Some people hemorrhage muscle on a low carb diet, some people don't. Some people function well on an intermittent fasting regime and some don't. You need to choose one type of diet at a time and try it out, and see how it works for you. Definitely don't try to throw together a bunch of random principles from different diets and try them all at once. That approach definitely won't work.
Like these guys have said, you need to do research.
On the other hand, you could design a diet which was let's say 40% carb, 40% protein, 20% fat, in which all of the carbs came from wheat bread and milk (to pick on two things people above are disapproving of). If you followed this diet, ate the right macros, timed your nutrients appropriately, and ate at a ~500 calorie deficit, you'd cut fat. If you did the same and ate at a 500 calorie surplus, and assuming you were working out appropriately, you'd gain muscle. By contrast, you could design a diet which produces the same results and which had you eating only 30 carbs per day, none from bread and none from milk.
There's no one size fits all. Things that are bad for you to do on one type of diet are not bad on another type. If you're on a low carb diet then you can't be eating much, if any, bread. If you aren't on a low carb diet then you can. Some diet types work better for some people. Some people hemorrhage muscle on a low carb diet, some people don't. Some people function well on an intermittent fasting regime and some don't. You need to choose one type of diet at a time and try it out, and see how it works for you. Definitely don't try to throw together a bunch of random principles from different diets and try them all at once. That approach definitely won't work.
Like these guys have said, you need to do research.
Usually you need at least 2-4 weeks to see the full effect of whatever the diet is.
Not eating carbs at all isn't an option if you are weight training. You're body needs carbs to fuel intense workouts. Even if you were doing a ketogenic diet (low carb), if you're actively weight lifting, you'd have to consume carbs either near your workout (TKD), or every X amount of days with a refeed (CKD).
Yes, lunch meat is processed. Is it ok to eat? Well, there are better choices, of course. Does it contain substantial protein? Yes. Are there other proteins with better bio-availability etc? Yes. Are you going to drop dead if you eat it? No.
Not eating carbs at all isn't an option if you are weight training. You're body needs carbs to fuel intense workouts. Even if you were doing a ketogenic diet (low carb), if you're actively weight lifting, you'd have to consume carbs either near your workout (TKD), or every X amount of days with a refeed (CKD).
Yes, lunch meat is processed. Is it ok to eat? Well, there are better choices, of course. Does it contain substantial protein? Yes. Are there other proteins with better bio-availability etc? Yes. Are you going to drop dead if you eat it? No.
Well that's what I meant to only eat carbs as the guy said above. Not before bed or not before cardio. I'm going to start there. And the lunchmeat I was basically asking if it was junk or not. I'm gonna attempt to do a lean bulk as stated. And I'm just trying to see what I currently eat that is junk. Peanuts? Like planters. Ok? Or not?
1 cup of chopped/whole Peanuts:
862 Calories
76g of fat (13g saturated)
22g of carb (14g fiber)
40g of protein
GI of peanuts=very low
Go look at this site, it has the kind of info you are looking for: Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Peanuts, all types, oil-roasted, with salt
862 Calories
76g of fat (13g saturated)
22g of carb (14g fiber)
40g of protein
GI of peanuts=very low
Go look at this site, it has the kind of info you are looking for: Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Peanuts, all types, oil-roasted, with salt
SolarEmpire44
Banned
Peanuts is not a good choice, its got way too much calories, like cato said for a cup its got 860 calories, thats wayyy too many, you could eat 4-6 8oz of chicken breast with broccoli and asparagus and you would probably get 600-750 clean calories rather binge on a cup of peanuts, also your lunch is not good its processed eat a chicken breast with 1/2 cup of brown rice instead, lean bulk is not easy as you think, you must be very strict, timing your carbs are very important also..
Ok. Timing my carbs are important. Ima start with that to see. But seeing as tho chicken breasts are so low in calories. I need someone to up them. What's lean that I could do that with?
its not about this food is too hi in cals or that food is too hi in fat or carbs or this is too processed . there is no bad food its the amounts and times/frequency there eatern that causes problems . take carbs and fat there a couple of the most important and useful tools for weight gain/loss yet look at what happend 10/15 years ago, first off was the low fat craze you could buy every food under the sun with 0% fat and the fact that the sugar/carbs were increased 10 fold in these LO FAT foods wasn't relevant and LO FAT was a green light to eat all you want . then SAINT ATKINS came along and told us about the evils of carbs and hence all carbs were bad , banished to never never land , dr atkins became the new masiah and ketostick's were the new must have gadget for weight loss . fat and carbs dont cause fat gain . fat and carbs in the presence of excess calories causes fat loss . also bread grains n processed food n junk and stuff isnt going to make you gain fat byitself but it will affect your progress to some degree but that said if the majority of your diet is good/clean and youre eating a bit of junk/processed food out of convinience and to make continuety of your chosen diet possible then thats better than trying/struggling to stick to something that is causing too much inconvinience a too much hassle to maintain over the long haul . after all we all have lives and interests out side of fitness/bodybuilding so keep it real keep it balanced and enjoy . bit of a rant but just a few points i wanted to get across .
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I gotcha. And I've learned alot. I'm still researching. I just wanted to see what I could replace my processed foods with that are going to lead me on my way to a lean bulk. I'm tired of looking in the mirror and no results. My numbers are going up but I dont see the muscle cause it's under the fat
Speaking of is a creative good to get on? Like a mono-hydrate creatine? I've heard that it only blots u and when you stop taking it you lose all the water weight that u put on when u take it. But I've also read while going on a carb cycling diet (like I'm about to do) that it works great
ive used it(plain creatine monohydrate) for many many years it does help me ive trained with it and without it . it must be one of the most widley used and tested supp's next to protein . i have read that some people dont respond to it but i think youll find the majority do. as for your previous post yes it is frustrating when fatloss stalls but weve all been there just keep doin what your doin n the fat will go
Now seeing as tho I'm going to cut my carbs. What are some good fats I can eat thru out the day. And a pretty decent breakfast. All in between I got it. Man you guys really helped me alot.
Whole eggs, avocado, nuts of various kinds, natural peanut butter or other natural nut butter, olives/olive oil, seeds of various kinds, fatty fishes (salmon), various cheeses. Use everything in moderation, since fatty foods add up in calories quickly, as you saw in the peanut nutritional info above. Always mix the fat with protein if it isn't already mixed.
I wanted to add that I agree with a lot of the points red head made in his longer post above.
Also, if by "low carb," you are talking about a keto diet, be aware that it takes ~3 weeks for your body to fully adapt to that particular diet. So you need to test it for a while to get the full effect.
I wanted to add that I agree with a lot of the points red head made in his longer post above.
Also, if by "low carb," you are talking about a keto diet, be aware that it takes ~3 weeks for your body to fully adapt to that particular diet. So you need to test it for a while to get the full effect.
Ok. Cool that also. So a clean diet is basically all natural nothing processed or nothing with man made added things right?
Ok and eat what about a serving of w/e it is I'm eating?
i dont understand the question whats w/e ?
one way is that you could divide your daily amount of carbs in to 4 so if your having 400g carbs a day have 100g b fast 100g pre w/o and the other 100g pwo then the last 100g with your next meal then the rest of the day all other carbs from vegs n dont bother counting those
yes add all pro carbs fat n supps in your log
Thanks man. I appreciate all the help buddy. I meant to ask u. Have u met your goals?
some will disagree with this but i always take 5g bcaa about 15min before cardio to safeguard against muscle loss . when i did cardio fasted without bcaa i lost alot of muscle .
even though bcaa do release insulin its not the same as when youve eatern carbs because theres no glucose available to be used as fuel . also the slight difference it makes to the smaller amount of fat burned for me outways the risk of losing muscle .
Ok what's bcaa?
O. Ok. I see now. I see where u are comin from. Ok. I'm going to try that
if its low intensity fasted cardio like walking you dont really need them but if its a bit more intensive/stressful like fast running etc then they are a good thing to guard against catbolisam IMO.
Right now training wise. How long is ok? I trained for about a hour very intensely and it felt like I was about to throw up so I'm not doing that more
maybe your conditioning is sub par , what cardio are you doing ? also do what works for you if its 30 mins, 45mins or 60mins then ok were all different . my sessions always last between 90 and 120 mins . OSO0690 made quite an interesting thread called "food for thought" you might find some stuff interesting in there
Actually I didn't do any cardio. Just lifting. And ok thanks I will check it out
Harsh morvin
New member
When starting bodybuilding, you have two paths both lain ahead of you, start with cutting or bulking.
Each are equal in their own special way.
Each are equal in their own special way.
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