bigred133's 3x5 log

[bigred133]

Programming:
In order to prepare for the Linear/Single Factor 5x5 posted here http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

I have been doing the Mark Rippetoe's 3x5 posted here http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712752
After reading his book "Starting Strength" available at www.startingstrength.com

These programs are in the training sticky here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484815

Excercise form and substitution:
Since the purpose is to prepare for the 5x5, I am using the same excercises listed in the 5x5 spreadsheet.
I have substituted Pendlay Rows (see sticky) for Power Cleans
and Incline presses for overhead press.
Form of other excercises is described in the book "Starting Strength."

Background:
This log is for two people: myself (Henry) and a guy who trains with me (Dean). We both have over 2 years experience with various bodybuilding excercises and workouts, although I'm not sure that counts for much. We most recently spent over a year on Mike Mentzer HIT with limited results. Before that it was a program from a "personal trainer" at the gym.

My stats:
32 yrs old. 5'10 200lbs. Fluctuates from 198-203. 38" waist. 44" chest.

Goal:
Get bigger. Increase strength.

Diet:
Caloric Excess http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Diet.htm
Meat, eggs and a gallon of milk every day with lots of fruits and vegetables as recommended in the book "Starting Strength."
PWO shake: 16oz 2%milk + 2 scoops whey + 1 scoop Dextrose (corn sugar)

1RM lifts:
We tested for 5RM at the beginning of the program following the procedure in the book "Starting Strength." The results are shown in the first workout.
Please note the rapid increases in the first month on this program.

Cardio:
Walking twice a day every day and hiking every other day.

Frequency:
Lifting Monday Wednesday Friday or Tuesday Thursday Saturday.

Format:
I have been keeping a log online using the google spreadsheet since 15 November 2006. It can be viewed at the following location:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQVpKAxEpDFVifGknJ0OHTQ

This file is updated every other day. I do not plan on posting updates to elitefitness.com unless requested since the link always shows the updated file.

The purpose of this post is to make a record available to the public of the results this program has produced by increasing my 5RM on the core compound lifts.

Questions, comments and unsolicited advice is welcome in this thread.

 

[TomoUK]

you seem well on top of things; good luck! ill be following your progress with interest.

 

[bigred133]

Just to clear things up, the actual log is here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQVpKAxEpDFVifGknJ0OHTQ

 

[oso0960]

Those are great gains that you and Dean made. I see on some that you stall for 2 workouts, then you go right back on making progress and for a while too, good job!

 

[bigred133]

Following the program in the book:
If reps are missed
the same weights are used in the next workout and usually all reps are completed.
future increases on that lift are cut in half

We have found that stalling on a second workout can usually be blamed on not getting enough sleep. At least 8-9 hrs a night makes a difference.

For example:
Deadlifts started at 20lb increases and are now down to 2.5lb increases, but I'm still increasing.

It's a great program to increase the core lifts for anyone who is not used to squatting this much volume.

 

[bigred133]

09JA07
LIFT WEIGHT xREPSxSETS
squat 232.5 x5x3
incline 147.5 x5x3
row 150 x5x3

microloading using http://www.theplatemate.com/donut.htm

 

[anotherbutters]

Great idea on the google spreadsheet! I'm always playing around trying to find a concise format for logs.

Good work on the workouts too. As tomo said, you look like you're on top of things.

 

[bigred133]

The google spreadsheet allows me to easily edit the same file at work and on my cheap laptop that doesn't have excel on it. I set it up to calculate warm-ups and increased working set weights too. All I do is change the increase value.

I can provide a copy in .xls if anyone wants it. I haven't set it up for 5x5 yet, but I plan on doing that soon.

Thanks to all the compliments. I've been reading the 5x5 threads, madcows site, and the two Rippetoe books and trying to learn all I can.

 

[bigred133]

11 January 2007
squat 235x5x3
bench 177.5x5, 177.5x4, 177.5x4
dead 267.5x5

 

[bigred133]

13 January 2007

squats 236x3. Fourth rep left sitting on the pins with me sitting on the floor. This was an increase of 1 lb over the 235 I did for 3 sets of 5 reps two days earlier. My previous attempt at 235 on 31 December left me with missed reps two workouts in a row, so I reset the weight back 5 lbs and gradually increased 2.5 lbs per workout. I do not believe that progression at this rate is possible for me at this time.

It is time for me to start the Bill Star 5x5.

As for the rest of the workout:

Incline Press 150x4x3. The fifth rep had my ass off the bench to get it locked out. Bad form doesn't count.

Row 155x5x3. Making the bar touch my torso involved some movement of the chest and back. Not what I would call strict form Pendlay Rows.

 

[anotherbutters]

Henry, I think you can still milk this for a while yet, rather than disrupt progress by making a big switch to the SF5x5. The Practical Programming book tells you how, but you've only mentioned Starting Strength so far, so I assume you don't have a copy. But, since I have a copy...

I think you should reset squats by 10% and work up from there again: 215, 220, 225, 230, 235, 237.5, 240, etc. I don't think you dropped the weight enough to give you a breather when you went back to 230.

With your bench, I'd attempt 177.5 again (as I'm sure you were going to), then try to reduce the increases (1-1.25lb) if you can. You might even want to reset these by 10% as per the squats.

For deads, I'd carry on as you were: 2.5lb increases.

In addition to the above, you should probably consider replacing back squats with front squats in workout A. That will drop the workload slightly as you'll be lifting less weight (they might be tough, but the weight will be less) and it will reduce the frequency of the back squat increases to 3 times per fortnight, thus stringing them out longer.

I wouldn't make any more changes than that. PP suggests that most people will get away with two resets and slight changes of exercises like this, before moving on to the intermediate programming (as per SF5x5).

How are you feeling? Any signs of fatigue setting in, or do you feel fairly fresh? Congrats on the progress so far!

 

[bigred133]

First, let me say I appreciate your input AB.

OTOH: I will be lifting at 3:00 and it's 2:35 now.

I am currently reading Practical Programming, but I have not completed it yet.

There are a few things I have learned in PP that I am attempting to apply to my programfrom memory)

1. Over 3-4 weeks of heavy loading may lead to overtraining. Looking at my log, I have been trying to push maxes for over 3 weeks.

2. The difference between a novice and an intermediate is the amount of time it takes to recover from a workout and increase strength (supercompensation.)

I am no longer recovered 48 hrs after a workout, and I'm not ready to push PR's every 48hrs for another week.
I am worn out, tired, fatigued, sore, aches and pains, sleeping and eating a lot, and ready for a program that pushes PR's once a week instead of every 48 hrs.

I think you should reset squats by 10% and work up from there again: 215...

My work set for wk1 linear 5x5 is 218

In SS is says "When you can no longer make these small increases it is time for periodization."

For deads, I'd carry on as you were: 2.5lb increases.

I probally could.

In addition to the above, you should probably consider replacing back squats with front squats in workout A

While that is a good suggestion, I don't want to fuck with the program.

PP suggests that most people will get away with two resets and slight changes of exercises like this

Oh. I had not got to that part yet.

How are you feeling? Any signs of fatigue setting in, or do you feel fairly fresh?

I feel like shit. Sleeping 9-10 hrs every night and eating like a starving refugee. Always tired. The guy who works out with me feels worse, and even though I tell him to shut up and "Don't be a pussy" I realize that fatigue is accumulating.

Todays plan of squat bench and row ramped 5x5 with 1 work set at 218, 165, and 144 sounds like a welcome relief. Only deadlifting 1x a week sounds good too.

While you are probably right, what it really comes down to is my understanding that my personal ability to push PR's every 48hrs is no longer possible. I could maybe sqeeze out a few more PR's on deads and rows, but that's only a small portion of the program.

BTW: Why do you call it the SF5x5? What does SF stand for? I'm talking about the training sticky madcow Bill Star Intermediate 5x5 here:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

BTW: here's my 5x5 spreadsheet. will like to new thread tomorrow.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQVpKAxEpDFUoHyU-tgSJCA

gone to the gym... wish I had more time to discuss

 

[anotherbutters]

If you're feeling that fatigued, you're probably due for a bigger reset than I suggested then and what you're planning makes sense. I still think you could do something in between what you're doing and the intermediate 5x5, but it's your call.

The SF5x5 and DF5x5 are what we (including madcow) used to call the intermediate and advanced 5x5's respectively, before madcow set up his geocities site (SF = single factor; DF = dual factor).

While that is a good suggestion, I don't want to fuck with the program.

But my suggestions were part of the program . The 3x5, intermediate and advanced 5x5's are all part of a series that you progress along over time as you advance and your training needs change. As such, they're merely snapshots that work at particular points in time. In between those times, i.e. when you stall, you will have to make small changes and do resets to get things going again. With such changes (my suggestion of front squats was such a change from PP), the 3x5 eventually becomes the intermediate 5x5, which itself eventually becomes the advanced 5x5. There's nothing wrong with jumping from 3x5 to intermediate 5x5, but there are steps in between that are still part of the 'program'. This is all covered in PP, so enjoy

 

[bigred133]

If you're feeling that fatigued, you're probably due for a bigger reset than I suggested then and what you're planning makes sense.

I have been experiencing accumlating fatigue for some time now, but I wanted to continue to push PR's as long as I could.

I still think you could do something in between what you're doing and the intermediate 5x5, but it's your call

I could do something in between if I was sure what I should do. I am not confident enough in my understanding of programming to begin experimenting and risk screwing it up.

I am confident in your understanding of programming AB.

My level of fatigue would have to be taken into account.

I could possibly deload for a week, and then reset the 3x5 at 80% and work my way up from there. That was my first plan.

I read through some Rippetoe and Pendlay interviews that gave me some other ideas.

I read through various logs here on EF and somewhere I got the idea that is was better to go to the SF5x5 when the majority of the lifts on the 3x5 stalled, instead of resetting the 3x5.

(SF = single factor; DF = dual factor)

Understood.

my suggestions were part of the program

Yes, they were.

Somewhere in between may work, but I cannot help but wonder if it would end up with another series of missed reps when I get to the point where I try to push PRs every 48hrs with the 3x5 again. Front squats on Wed. would space that out some, but the other lifts are catching up also.

In one of the books, either SS or PP, it says it is better to make smaller increases instead of ending up with missed reps.

I am microloading and missing reps.

Somewhere in between may work, IF I get it right. Changing from 48 hour increases to weekly increases by switching to the SF5x5 will work IMO. The change in volume will help also.

I've missed reps on:
29 Dec bench at 175
31 Dec squat at 235
02 Jan bench at 175 AGAIN.
04 Jan squat at 230 (decreased weight)
11 Jan bench at 177.5
13 Jan squat at 236

Should this pattern show us that increases every 48 hours are no longer possible? Deads and rows are not on that list but my back tells me it needs a temporary reset.

Maybe I should have reset 10% when I stalled. My understanding from SS was to repeat with the same weight on the next workout if a few reps were missed. If more than a few reps were missed, then the increase was too much and the weight should be reduced to the weight used in the previous workout. Further increases would be made at smaller increments. 2.5 instead of 5. 1 instead of 2.5...

I keep going back to the chart in PP that shows the difference between novice, intermediate, and advanced is the ability in increase every workout, every week, and every month.

I look at my progress, and it is no longer sucessfull every 48 hrs.

If I better understood the steps in between, I would be confident in planning for programming in between.

I appreciate your help AB. While I am starting to realize that I could gain strength faster by trying something in between the two programs, I am not confident enough to go off the path as I currently understand it. That means jumping from 3x5 to SF until I understand better.

I read some more of PP last night. The chapter about "Things you need to know."

My appreciation goes to the authors for provididing us with a way to understand how to plan a strength training program over time with the necessary changes. I've read the madcow training theory information, but this book is so much more.

I had hoped to finish the book before I finished the 3x5, but that has not worked out as I planned.

 

[bigred133]

Link to new SF 5x5 log
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=527971

 

[anotherbutters]

Well, you've definitely got things in hand. k to you bigred. I'm sure you'll do great on the SF 5x5. Good luck!

BTW, the last 4-5 pages of the Novice chapter are where the reset info I mentioned came from.

 

[bigred133]

Thanks buddy! I made my way through the section in PP on genetics last night. Lots of diverse but applicable info in that book.