being GAY.

[RyanH]

In the last year, I learned that a close friend of mine, Tom, from high school committed suicide because he was gay. Since he and I had not spoken since high school, I never knew that he had come to this realization.

I've been told that he killed himself because his family is very conservative & he didn't see how he could ever reconcile their religious, moral beliefs with his own sexuality. Also, he had no other gay people around him to confide in, leaving him incredibly isolated. Further, he was also an only child. Tom was 27.

I've been pretty tough on myself the last year over this issue, and have really been exploring the issue of what is so different from gay men and straight men? Are gays more self-destructive because of a sense of isolation, a sense of never being able to live up to family expectations......do many gay men just simply self-destruct? Are gays often vengeful towards one another because of jealousy or insecurity when in reality, they are the only ones who can probably truly understand one another?

In short, do people realize what gays must often live with? The stereotype of having AIDS. The stereotype of being sexually promiscous. The stereotype of doing drugs every weekend. Moreover, being disowned because of the one thing you can never change------YOUR SEXUALITY-----just like your eye color, there...it will always be.

Ryan.

 

[satanic goatslayer]

The stereotype of being sexually promiscous. The stereotype of doing drugs every weekend.

You and JohnnyO have both talked of acting this way. No stereotype.

The stereotype of having AIDS.

May1010.

 

[Golfer18--old]

Each to his own. I dont care if your gay. That doesnt bother me. Every political post you post really bothers me.

 

[RyanH]

Re: Re: being GAY.

You and JohnnyO have both talked of acting this way. No stereotype.

I've never spoken of partying every weekend (except maybe when I was 21). I just don't, nor do I consider myself any more promiscuous than the average person.

Do I occassionally go out? Sure. Do I have a trick every week? No.

But you know Goatslayer, even if your statement were factually correct, would two people acting a certain way warrant stereotyping all gays as being that way?

 

[satanic goatslayer]

Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

would two people acting a certain way warrant stereotyping all gays as being that way?

Yes.

 

[RyanH]

Each to his own. I dont care if your gay. That doesnt bother me. Every political post you post really bothers me.

this thread isn't about me...it's about a general issue....the extra pressures gay men often find themselves under.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Pressures are self imposed, and also, self-removed.

I couldn't care less about someone's sexuality.

 

[starfish]

That is really sad about your friend Ryanh...

My brother is gay and I spend a lot of time with him and his friends. Many don't talk about their families and I often wonder if that is why. Heck, I've been treated differently because I have a gay brother so I know it must be tough..

It's completely ridiculous that people act that way. I've been treated with more loyalty and respect by the gay community than the straight. I think they really value their friendships because so many people discriminate.

My family is big and half is ultra conservative and I swear they are walking heart attacks and boring. They have no fun, just count their $$$ and then their is the fun half of my famiy..

Come party with me and my brother. We just got home from the most AWESOME vacation in Key West.. It was a lot of fun down there, made some really good friends

 

[HumorMe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Yes.

Goatslayer
You can say so much with just one word. DAMN, I love your style!

This thread is gay.

 

[ShadowKnight]

As much as I am sorry to hear about your friend, I believe that you (and he for that matter) misconstrued reality.

Your friend did not commit suicide because he was gay. He committed suicide because he was unhappy with his life. His rejection from his family, dissonance with his morals and religious affiliations - this caused his depressive emotions, not his sexuality. To say that they are linked is feasible, but one is most not definitely the cause of the other.

People everywhere everyday deal with stereotypes regardless of their sexual orientation. It doesn't matter what sex, race, religion, or sexual preference someone is, they will always be a stereotype to someone.

In your query to the difference between straight and gay people: In my opinion, we are all the same. We have all loved someone, lost someone, and have been hurt by someone. We are all capable of love as well as hate. We all have good days and bad days. And, most importantly, we as Americans have every right and freedom to surround ourselves in an environment that will fulfill our personal needs.

Your friend simply didn't have the inner strength to accept who he was, identify himself, and adjust accordingly.

You should be happy for your friend. His life, being the ultimate form of indulgence, which was the dominant negative in his life, is now silenced by the ultimate abstinence - his death. He will never have to be miserable again. Not because of his sexual preference, but because of WHO he was.

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Goatslayer
You can say so much with just one word. DAMN, I love your style!

This thread is gay.

So you must be gay by association, since you posted on it.

Sorry to hear about your friend, RyanH. Nice words, Starfish.

 

[Code]

More accurately, your friend killed himself because he was suicidal.
I have four gay friends, well, one lesbian and three gays. But my point is, they are all healthy and don't seem to be bothered by stereotypes, in fact, they jest about it more than all of their straight friends.

I doubt highly that your friend killed himself simply because he was gay or because he was stereotyped frequently.

Moreover, it isn't healthy for you to beat yourself up about it. I don't think it's something you or anyone could have prevented.

I have personally lost two friends to suicide, and been to somewhere in the area of 50 sessions with psychologists over the past 8 years.

 

[RyanH]

Pressures are self imposed, and also, self-removed.

I couldn't care less about someone's sexuality.

I know that you don't Matt, I've never sensed otherwise.

But, I disagree with your statement that pressures are self-imposed. Generally, a person's sexuality brings a whole new set of pressures---similar to some of the pressures many African-Americans experience.

Am I happy with myself? Absolutely. But, we should be realistic about the fact that many homosexuals have relationships that are effected in one way or another because of their sexuality....Much of society also automatically deems you a certain way because of your sexuality.

Being shunned by one's family is a prime example of a pressure that likely occurs in a higher percentage of gay men (in proportion to straight men).

 

[Citruscide]

I don't want to sound like a rude asshole here... but killing oneself? Isn't that a bit overboard? Does it really SOLVE anything? Are people truly THAT weak? I'm sorry if I am offending anyone, I truly am... It's just, I have a hard time finding sympathy in my heart for those who take the easy way out of life... rather than taking these challenges head on...

The fact that someone is gay... well, that's their choice... but the whole suicide thing.. .come on.

C

 

[RyanH]

That is really sad about your friend Ryanh...

My brother is gay and I spend a lot of time with him and his friends. Many don't talk about their families and I often wonder if that is why. Heck, I've been treated differently because I have a gay brother so I know it must be tough..

Star, what many of us fail to understand is that there are many gay men who live in rural areas where an understanding for gay life is bound to be dramatically less than in larger areas.

 

[RyanH]

The fact that someone is gay... well, that's their choice... but the whole suicide thing.. .come on.

C

 

[RyanH]

The fact that someone is gay... well, that's their choice... but the whole suicide thing.. .come on.

C

I COMPLETELY AGREE. But, we both live in urban areas, what if you live in a rural area? We have to understand that someone living in Mississippi would not have the outlet that gays living in urban areas usually have.

I would never kill my self for ANY reason. But, my point is that being gay is not "Will and Grace" everywhere. There are still areas in this country that are VERY homophobic.

 

[starfish]

I would think it would be really hard to be a gay man in certain parts of the United States.. My brother has a friend who works in solving hate crimes so I can completely understand your point of view. No white, straight man will ever no that fear simply because of his sexuality..

Maybe that is why the gay community tends to live in communities where it is more accepted. Some really cool places too.

 

[RyanH]

More accurately, your friend killed himself because he was suicidal.
I have four gay friends, well, one lesbian and three gays. But my point is, they are all healthy and don't seem to be bothered by stereotypes, in fact, they jest about it more than all of their straight friends.

I doubt highly that your friend killed himself simply because he was gay or because he was stereotyped frequently.

Moreover, it isn't healthy for you to beat yourself up about it. I don't think it's something you or anyone could have prevented.

I have personally lost two friends to suicide, and been to somewhere in the area of 50 sessions with psychologists over the past 8 years.

I appreciate your thoughts. But, the fact of the matter is that there is a substantial number of young gays and lesbians that end their lives because they lack the ability to deal with their sexuality. Of course, there are many many STRONG gay men and lesbians.

But, my point is that having a different sexuality in a unique set of circumstances (i.e where you live, your family religion, number of friends, relationship with family) is bound to change the view for many people.

 

[Citruscide]

I COMPLETELY AGREE. But, we both live in urban areas, what if you live in a rural area? We have to understand that someone living in Mississippi would not have the outlet that gays living in urban areas usually have.

I would never kill my self for ANY reason. But, my point is that being gay is not "Will and Grace" everywhere. There are still areas in this country that are VERY homophobic.

Point taken. And I agree with you. As well as there are many places (maybe even more so in urban areas) that are the same way with black people.

C

 

[RyanH]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

So you must be gay by association, since you posted on it.

 

[saint808]

I'm sorry about your friend, but I also agree that pressures should be self removed... whenever something causes you that much internal conflict then it it is time to either get help or stop caring about the world around you for a second and care for yourself. We have a guy in our circle of friends (RL) that tried to take 30 darvocets one night for the same reason, but his mother found him and dialled 911 and thankfully he was fine (minor liver damage)... he told us he was afraid to come out about being gay and said he didn't really know he was gay, per se, until a few years back... I simply told him that the rest of us had it figured out long before that and that he shouldn't allow the views of the rest of the world make it so painful for him to not even confide in friends.

 

[flexed1]

there are different types of pressure none really different from the other. a teen in school who does not fit in or is teased. a person in gym who is chosen last for a team, a gay youth not realizing or intouch with what is going on inside ones body. we all go through something.

I never had hangups with being gay nor do I now. I am by all people eyes a very straight acting person who is very successful and full of confidence. when people got to know me they accepted me for who I really am not what I appear to be.

suicide is an easy way out for many. it sucks but I can't think of anybody and they would be lying if they said no who has not for 1 second thought about it. could be personal issues, money issues, love issues whatever. to act on it takes no offense a weak person as they leave others to suffer more.

I am lucky as my family knows and accepts me for the person I am there son and there brother. my cousins, aunts and uncles the same. however had they or someone else not accepted me that by all means its there loss. you see nobody even the folks whom brought you into this world controls you the person. that can be only you. I live by how I react and by my decisions I make every day.

if everybody was nice to everybody else and accepted the fact that each of us has a purpose and a reason for being here and in the end only god or whomever you believe in will decide your faith. Ryan I am truly sorry for the loss but life is what you make of it.

peace

 

[musclebrains]

I don't think stereotyping accounts for the disportionately high rate of suicide among young gay people...and I know that's not the main point of your post, but it's not a helpful polemic to launch in my opinion.

Young gay people kill themselves for a simple reason: They don't know how to handle the very real hatred with which the way they love is met by the dominant culture. To be deprived of freedom and encouragement to love is to be told, as you say, that the very thing that most enlivens life and shapes us in the most positive ways is not our "right" -- that our love is evil.

No, I don't think straight people by and large have a clue what the experience of such blind hatred is like, and I don't think they ever will. While many straight people are exceptions to this, I don't think homosexuality is every going to be integrated into the dominant culture's orthodoxy as more than a tolerated peculiarity, no matter how much gay people try to appear like everyone else. It will always be the fate of every gay young person to decide whether to live cynically, destructively or lovingly in a culture that mainly declares him an oddity.

To me, this is a gift. To create love for youself in a culture that officially despises your way of loving, to cultivate wit to disarm the brutal stupidity of moralism, to live with the deaths of friends (because of such suicides, because of AIDS) and not give up living, to learn to make meaning out of difference instead of the homogenized fantasy of assimilated values -- all of that matures the soul and it's the reason so many gay people end up as humanitarian and religious leaders.

 

[Code]

No doubt about it, being gay must be hard. Job interviews, traffic violations and other slightly confrontational situations.

But remember, people live where they choose to live. Even the poorest Americans have the option of moving to areas of higher prosperity and/or wider acceptance.

But I do agree, it's not easy to be different especially in rural areas. Psychologists, social workers and friends (even onlines ones) could/should be looked to for support.

 

[wyst]

he told us he was afraid to come out about being gay and said he didn't really know he was gay, per se, until a few years back... I simply told him that the rest of us had it figured out long before that and that he shouldn't allow the views of the rest of the world make it so painful for him to not even confide in friends.

That's the hardest, when you know the other person has a secret but won't share it. How's your friend doing now, Saint8?

Wyst

 

[RyanH]

I am lucky as my family knows and accepts me for the person I am there son and there brother. my cousins, aunts and uncles the same. however had they or someone else not accepted me that by all means its there loss. you see nobody even the folks whom brought you into this world controls you the person. that can be only you. I live by how I react and by my decisions I make every day.

I see your point, and I too, am very lucky to have cool parents. But, what troubles me is that I think alot of gaymen are out of touch with other gay men----until Tom's death, I never really thought about how isolating it must be for some people with circumstances different from ours.

Again, if you throw into the equation: being disowned by your family, living in a rural area with few friends you can relate to---that must change the view. The obvious solution is to change your view. But many don't know how.

The question is how do you reach those people? Who is their voice?

 

[starfish]

Ryanh,

If you have a cool family and you find someone who was not accepted by theirs, invite them to be a part of your family.. It's a small gesture- but it works. My family does it all the time

 

[musclebrains]

the idea that someone should remove the pressures from his life in order to evade suicide assumes that the person in a suicidal state is rational -- which he is not.

I'm sorry to break the news to you, but in states of utter despair, the obliteration of suicide is welcomed as an end to pain that has become unbearable. By the time one reaches such a state, one is not rational -- and when everyone, including your own parents, tells you that you are in fact despicable, you move to the decision to annihilate yourself much more quickly than someone with ordinary depression.

Telling people who are in the utter black hole of hatred because of their love that they are "weak" simply denies them what they need -- love -- and hastens their death.

 

[saint808]

That's the hardest, when you know the other person has a secret but won't share it. How's your friend doing now, Saint8?

Wyst

Doing fine as soon as he realized it wasn't up to the world to make his decisions then he kinda just settled into his lifestyle.

 

[HumorMe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

So you must be gay by association, since you posted on it.

Sorry, I have a wife AND kids.

 

[huntmaster]

I too am sorry to hear about your friend ---- I recently lost a friend from High school who I had not seen in a while--He died in a car wreck, very sad.

It is a shame that the people of faith around your friend did not have a positive influence on him----we must remember, people are people--they will let you down. But God will never let you down. I hope that he new Jesus---I wish I could have shared my faith with your friend.

 

[RyanH]

To me, this is a gift. To create love for youself in a culture that officially despises your way of loving, to cultivate wit to disarm the brutal stupidity of moralism, to live with the deaths of friends (because of such suicides, because of AIDS) and not give up living, to learn to make meaning out of difference instead of the homogenized fantasy of assimilated values -- all of that matures the soul and it's the reason so many gay people end up as humanitarian and religious leaders.

very well-said MB. Do you believe there is a large disparity between suicide by gaymen living in rural areas as opposed to sucide by gaymen living in urban areas.

 

[flexed1]

ryan that could be said for interracial couples, trailer trash, really poor folks, etc. we are only in tune to what we wish to be in tune with. sometimes its easier to ignore or make fun of what we don't understand. and do you know how many kids grow up in broken or single family homes? its no easier for them.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I don't want to sound like a rude asshole here... but killing oneself? Isn't that a bit overboard? Does it really SOLVE anything? Are people truly THAT weak? I'm sorry if I am offending anyone, I truly am... It's just, I have a hard time finding sympathy in my heart for those who take the easy way out of life... rather than taking these challenges head on...

The fact that someone is gay... well, that's their choice... but the whole suicide thing.. .come on.

C

its not the easy way out. it is the only logical way to end pain for some people.


all debating aside, does may1010 really have aids?

 

[RyanH]

Telling people who are in the utter black hole of hatred because of their love that they are "weak" simply denies them what they need -- love -- and hastens their death.

I would love to see someone offer a good rebuttal to this statement.

 

[musclebrains]

very well-said MB. Do you believe there is a large disparity between suicide by gaymen living in rural areas as opposed to sucide by gaymen living in urban areas.

I have never seen any statistic in this regard at all. I seem to recall that the suicide rate among adults for both sexual orienations is roughly the same. It is gay teenagers who kill themselves with terrible, exaggerated frequency. I doubt that it matters whether they are in an urban or rural environment.

I spent the first five years of my newspapering career in small and mid-sized cities and I was always surprised by the tolerance of gay people in those environments. Indeed, my own nature felt far more supported in the small town where I was born than in the large cities to which we later moved.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Ryan,

i can't rebut it....nor would I want to. I don't disagree.

But somepeople, when faced with hatred or rejection, find a way to channel it into success in some way - they become extremely hard workers as an escape, and succeed, or they hide themselves in their creativity and become famous (Freddie Mercury?).

Yet so many do not. Any idea as to why?

 

[wyst]

The obvious solution is to change your view. But many don't know how.

The question is how do you reach those people? Who is their voice?

Yes! It's like telling a fat person to get in shape and to build up his muscles. That's fine, but how many people have you known over the years who decided they were going to get in shape but failed? Mental strength is much like physical strength. You only reach it through much hard work, and often you can't reach it alone with someone to tell or show you how to go about doing it. Straight people, at least the lucky ones, have role models. Hell, the ones that don't at least have movies and TVs. How many gay men or women have role models around them they can look up to, when so many gay people are in the closet because of the stupid attitude that even shows here on this board all too often? And how many gay people are there on TV or in the movies? And of those, how many are just the comic relief clowns, or Nambla freaks, or the victims in police shows? Don't see many gay action heros, or romantic leads, or strong minded characters. Things are changing, but it's hard growing up with a lac of role models.

You're all right, it is a journey you ultimately make alone, but most of us at least had a little help. Hell, most of us are crazy strong minded anyhow, compared to the average person. How many average Americans or Canadians or whatever have the mental toughness to do the kinds of things that bodybuilders do? Precious few. As in fitness, so in life. I feel sad for people that are out of shape physically, and I try to help them by being an example and by telling them how I got in shape, when they ask. I suggest that it might be good to ahve the same kind of empathy for people lacking in mental toughness too, and to try and help them along too, instead of judging them.

Okay, that sounded really pompous, sorry.



I almost erased it, but the I thought, what the hell, I *do* think it's true.

Wyst

 

[RyanH]

ryan that could be said for interracial couples, trailer trash, really poor folks, etc. we are only in tune to what we wish to be in tune with. sometimes its easier to ignore or make fun of what we don't understand. and do you know how many kids grow up in broken or single family homes? its no easier for them.

Flexed, what reaction do you generally expect when you tell someone that you are gay?

 

[musclebrains]

Ryan,

i can't rebut it....nor would I want to. I don't disagree.

But somepeople, when faced with hatred or rejection, find a way to channel it into success in some way - they become extremely hard workers as an escape, and succeed, or they hide themselves in their creativity and become famous (Freddie Mercury?).

Yet so many do not. Any idea as to why?

It takes one person, literally, to demonstrate love to a kid in that circumstance and make a difference -- one person to see who he is and say he's lovable. My grandmother was that person for me. Those who kill themselves usually have fallen so deeply into the hatred that they can't speak the truth aloud to anyone or fate has set them in cirucumstance where there is nobody to hear them.

 

[Warik]

In short, do people realize what gays must often live with? The stereotype of having AIDS. The stereotype of being sexually promiscous. The stereotype of doing drugs every weekend. Moreover, being disowned because of the one thing you can never change------YOUR SEXUALITY-----just like your eye color, there...it will always be.

Straights and gays alike have to live with equally or more difficult things for the rest of their lives. Being stereotyped based on one's homosexuality pales in comparison to something like a large family living in a 2 bedroom apartment whose head of household works 2 low-wage jobs.

The stereotype of having AIDS?

At the end of 2000, 46% of reported AIDS cases involved homosexuals.

Being sexually promiscous?

Please... I don't need to touch this one. Homosexuals, typically are as promiscous as one of them teen-whores you see on those talk shows.

Doing drugs every weekend?

Many Americans in general do drugs every weekend... hardly an unfair stereotype, unless most American homosexuals aren't American.

I honestly don't care as long as I don't have to be subjected to witnessing any acts of homosexuality or flagrant displays of flaming gayness (i.e. tight pink shirts with limp wrists and a nasty liTHHHHHP), but I wish you'd stop crying about it. Wahhh homosexuals are stereotyped! How many times do I have to say it?

Most, if not all, stereotypes are based on truths!

-Warik

 

[Warik]

I would love to see someone offer a good rebuttal to this statement.

News Flash: Suicide is optional.

-Warik

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Re: being GAY.

At the end of 2000, 46% of reported AIDS cases involved homosexuals.


-Warik

But only 0.5% of new cases are contracted by homosexuals. The fastest growing group in the US is straight black males.

So before you advance a stereotype that has undoubtedly caused many to have irresponsible/unprotected sex, get your stats in line.

 

[RyanH]

I spent the first five years of my newspapering career in small and mid-sized cities and I was always surprised by the tolerance of gay people in those environments. Indeed, my own nature felt far more supported in the small town where I was born than in the large cities to which we later moved.

Surely, it would be more isolating for a gay teenager living in Mississippi as opposed to one living in New York --since those living in rural areas are probably exposed to gays far less, thus effecting the way one might regard gays.

I would also think that there would be greater religious pressures in rural southern areas. (i.e. dealing with Southern Baptists).

 

[musclebrains]

Re: Re: being GAY.

Most, if not all, stereotypes are based on truths!

-Warik

True, there's the stereotype of the dumb kid with very little experience in the real world who thinks he knows everything but knows practically nothing.

 

[RyanH]

Warik, do you realize how much of Africa and now China is being overwhelmed by the AIDS virus, both men and women, mostly straight? AIDS is spreading like wildfire, people are keeping their head in the sand, and your are amongst those.

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: being GAY.

I honestly don't care as long as I don't have to be subjected to witnessing any acts of homosexuality or flagrant displays of flaming gayness (i.e. tight pink shirts with limp wrists and a nasty liTHHHHHP), but I wish you'd stop crying about it. Wahhh homosexuals are stereotyped! How many times do I have to say it?
-Warik

Warik, you are a fucking idiot. Everyone else was at least expressing reasonable views, regardless of opinion, and you have to come along and spread your crass, "iggerant," vile, hate, lowering the level and the aggregate IQ with it?

Why should you get to decide who wears what? And, by the way, your ignorance is showing. The only homosexual I've ever know (and I've known a great many) who acts like that is Jack on Will and Grace, and he doesn't really. The sterotype that you are basing your gay-panic fears on barely exsits in most of the world.

How dare you invade a thread talking about the issue of this poor guy worrying about his dead friend with your juvenile BS that you are only saying to get a rise out of people. What a sad little life you must lead to need to antagonize people just to get your pathetic little jollies.

Wyst

 

[wyst]

News Flash: Suicide is optional.

-Warik

Man, I hope your steroids make you sterile so that your complete lack of empathy isn't inflicted on any children.

Wyst

 

[musclebrains]

Surely, it would be more isolating for a gay teenager living in Mississippi as opposed to one living in New York --since those living in rural areas are probably exposed to gays far less, thus effecting the way one might regard gays.

I would also think that there would be greater religious pressures in rural southern areas. (i.e. dealing with Southern Baptists).

I honestly don't know but I think it's still quite rare for a gay teenager to come out in any environment. I don't generally find the condescending and genteel acceptance of homosexuality by urban sophisticates much more helpful than the tortured attitudes of families in the sticks with kids who come out to them. In such situations, the kids often know they are loved.

On the ohter hand I have worked with MANNNNNNNNNY gay men whose primary suffering was caused by their childhood churches.

 

[Warik]

Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

But only 0.5% of new cases are contracted by homosexuals. The fastest growing group in the US is straight black males.

I was not referring to new cases. I was referring to existing cases, but if you want to play the growing game...

"Gay and bisexual men of all races remain at alarming risk for AIDS"
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/hiv_plan/Men Who Have Sex With Men.htm

"Of new infections among men in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 60 percent of men were infected through homosexual sex"
Source: CDC

So before you advance a stereotype that has undoubtedly caused many to have irresponsible/unprotected sex, get your stats in line.

I don't think the stereotype has caused anything. The only things that have caused many to have irresponsible/unprotected sex is ignorance and irresponsibility - plain and simple. Let's not try to justify peoples' ignorance and irresponsibility by blaming the evil stereotype. Once again - the stereotype didn't "make" them do anything. They had the choice.

-Warik

 

[Warik]

Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

True, there's the stereotype of the dumb kid with very little experience in the real world who thinks he knows everything but knows practically nothing.

Nothing like personal insults to make you look intelligent and strenghten your argument.

-Warik

 

[RyanH]

Along the lines of what Matt said, as long as people regard AIDS as a gay disease it will continue to spread even more.

Are you guys familar with the increasing number of AIDS cases in China? Apparently, blood transfusions in China are often contaminated and the recent growth of the sex trade, has caused the number of HIV cases in China to explode.

the Chinese government has no clue as to how to deal with the situation, but then, neither does ours.

 

[Warik]

Warik, do you realize how much of Africa and now China is being overwhelmed by the AIDS virus, both men and women, mostly straight? AIDS is spreading like wildfire, people are keeping their head in the sand, and your are amongst those.

Do I live in Africa or China? No, I live in the US, which is the country to which I was referring. Homosexuals are at extremely high risk in this country for AIDS infection, hence the stereotype. If straight white men were those at extremely high risk for AIDS infection, then the stereotype would be adjusted accordingly.

Stereotypes only affect those who wish to be affected. Americans nowadays tend to stereotype Middle-Easterners as terrorists. My dad is Middle-Eastern and therefore I am part Middle-Eastern. Do you honestly think either of us gives a shit? Thick skin - grow it.

-Warik

 

[smallmovesal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Nothing like personal insults to make you look intelligent and strenghten your argument.

-Warik

If I were you, I'd cut my losses and join a freak show. You would probably be the main attraction because you are a soaking-wet penis.


whoops, wrong thread. my bad

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

If I were you, I'd cut my losses and join a freak show. You would probably be the main attraction because you are a soaking-wet penis.


whoops, wrong thread. my bad

It's okay, Warik is generally in the position of having to cut his losses, and generally saying something that his tiny little mind thinks is daringly provocative. How sad. He either has no friends in real life or is surrounded by an entourage of illiterate carny freaks who are impressed by his supremely misplaced confidence in his sadly underdeveloped world view. The guy has absolutely no empathy and no ability to communicate. Hell even the serious rednecks here avoid him like the plague cos they're afraid he might rub up against them and get his antisocial stink all over them.

 

[Warik]

Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Warik, you are a fucking idiot.

Hm, you resort to senseless, childish name-calling, yet I do not despite obvious antagonization. I believe your analysis of the "fucking idiot" in this discussion is in err.

Why should you get to decide who wears what?

Who says I was deciding anything? I said I didn't mind unless <blah>. Does that mean that <blah> is not allowed? No, it means that I'm not bothered unless <blah> occurs. Do you get bothered when 110lbers in the gym flex in the mirror? Well, why should you decide who gets to flex or not? I have as much right to be bothered by someone dressing flamboyantly as that person has to dress flamboyantly.

And, by the way, your ignorance is showing. The only homosexual I've ever know (and I've known a great many) who acts like that is Jack on Will and Grace, and he doesn't really. The sterotype that you are basing your gay-panic fears on barely exsits in most of the world.

I have no "gay-panic" fears, or fears of gays in general. Additionally, I've seen several homosexuals, in real life, acting and dressing in that manner. I don't know where you live, but in South Florida it seems to be different. Here, one can often determine whether someone is gay or not simply by what they are wearing or how they are acting. Of course, I agree, many homosexuals do not act or dress in that manner, but most people who do ARE gay.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

How dare you invade a thread talking about the issue of this poor guy worrying about his dead friend with your juvenile BS that you are only saying to get a rise out of people. What a sad little life you must lead to need to antagonize people just to get your pathetic little jollies.

Blah blah blah waahhhh. I was responding to his "in short" comment which claims that homosexuals have more "reason" of some sort to commit suicide than other people. That is obvious bullshit. There is no reason for anyone to commit suicide - once people, people like Ryan's friend, realize this, there will be much fewer suicides. "I'm gay and nobody likes me" is not a reason to terminate one's life - the most precious gift.

-Warik

 

[musclebrains]

Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Nothing like personal insults to make you look intelligent and strenghten your argument.

-Warik

Um, it's YOUR argument, Bright Boy. Weren't you the one who said it was fair to stereotype since stereotypes are based on the truth? And isn't a stereotype a generalizaton to the individual of a collective observation? Didn't you advise growing a thick skin below?

Insult indeed. And then there' s the failure of your sense of irony, even when you set it in motion.

Other people can argue with you, Warik. I leaned years ago that engagement with petty bigots who never pay attention, when making a retort, to the coherence of their own arguments, is a waste of time. I happily bow out of another thread that you invaded with your childish assertions that are wholly beside the point.

You don't want gay people assaulting your poor little-boy sensibilities. I don't want uneducated fools taking up my time.

 

[Warik]

Man, I hope your steroids make you sterile so that your complete lack of empathy isn't inflicted on any children.

Weren't you the one criticizing stereotypes?

You just made two.

1) I'm a bodybuilder, therefore, I must use steroids.

2) I allegedly use steroids, therefore, I must be sterile.

What a riot.

-Warik

 

[Warik]

Along the lines of what Matt said, as long as people regard AIDS as a gay disease it will continue to spread even more.

AIDS is not a "gay" disease, though. Gay men are at high risk for contracting AIDS, but the disease is not exclusive to that group of people. I'm not trying to suggest that AIDS is a "gay" disease by any means.

-Warik

 

[Code]

I haven't heard someone refer to AIDs as a Gay Disease since 1985. Well accept for places like EF.

It's a misnomer and a bit of a hoax.

It's not unlike proclaiming the Rock is an actor.

 

[gymtime]

*munching popcorn* And to think I almost watched Will and Grace tonight.

 

[smallmovesal]

warik, why don't you go do the "i'm smarter than all of you" dance somewhere else? your act is totally tired.

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Blah blah blah waahhhh. I was responding to his "in short" comment which claims that homosexuals have more "reason" of some sort to commit suicide than other people. That is obvious bullshit. There is no reason for anyone to commit suicide - once people, people like Ryan's friend, realize this, there will be much fewer suicides. "I'm gay and nobody likes me" is not a reason to terminate one's life - the most precious gift.

-Warik

Obviously there's no *good* reason to commit suicide. But people who lose hope lose the ability to see that. And people who come from backgrounds that are cut off from the mainstream by the fear of facing ignorant bigots like yourself are more likely to find themselves in a position of no hope.

And yes, I feel the same empathy for poor people, single parents, handicapped people, or any other group more likely to find themselves so depressed that they are driven to this state. Not just gay people.

The reason I am so pissed off is that a key point of this thread is that the whole damned question was basically how can we reach these people and help them not to lose hope so they won't squander that precious gift. As someone who has faced this problem personally, I can tell you, it's *your* attitude that is the biggest single challenge to saving this particular group of people.

Wyst

 

[starfish]

AIDS is far from a gay disease. The fact that it is higher in other countries is no excuse to ignore it either.. That is ignorant.

I know a man who is one of 35 scientists developing the AIDS vaccine etc. and I can assure you that it is EVERYONES responsibility.

 

[Warik]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

Weren't you the one who said it was fair to stereotype since stereotypes are based on the truth? And isn't a stereotype a generalizaton to the individual of a collective observation? Didn't you advise growing a thick skin below?

My skin is quite thick. Your prior, and current, insult had no effect on me. I'm simply stating fact that is relevant to this argument, and you are cleverly formulating subtle insults based on what I said. If you had not noticed, that accomplishes nothing.

They say I have no empathy. Sorry if I think with my brain and not my feelings.

What exactly are you trying to prove by arguing against my points?

I implied that gays were at high risk for AIDS infection. Do you believe that is incorrect?

I said that suicide was optional. Do you believe that is incorrect?

I said that there is no such thing as a valid reason for suicide. Do you believe that is incorrect?

How is it possible that someone has the right to dress a certain way, but I do not have the right to passively dislike it? I don't have the right to passively dislike someone's attire, yet you have the right to actively dislike my arguments? There's more hypocrisy here than on Capitol Hill. YIKES

 

[wyst]

Weren't you the one criticizing stereotypes?

You just made two.

1) I'm a bodybuilder, therefore, I must use steroids.

2) I allegedly use steroids, therefore, I must be sterile.

What a riot.

-Warik

That was irony -- you were the one who pretty much said stereotypes were a good indicator of truth a few posts back. And by the way, you need to get a good logic textbook before you attempt to make that sort of post. You haven't got the lingo down quite right. I'm embarrassed for you. Probably goes over with fawning carny friends, though.

 

[smallmovesal]

suicide is not something to blame anyone for... it happens.

there is a very high suicide rate amongst our aboriginal teenagers... that and alcoholism... all because of circumstances beyond their control - cyclical community problems.

i suspect you have little life experience warik. that's not an insult, just an observation.

 

[Warik]

That was irony

lol. No, it was hypocrisy. You argue against one thing and then use it in the following post. It's like me saying tax increases are bad and then saying "oh... but tax increases are OK as long as they help pay for this."

And by the way, you need to get a good logic textbook before you attempt to make that sort of post.

Is that so? Why don't you be so kind as to point out some of my logical fallacies, or are you simply saying this in hopes of going off on another tangent?

-Warik

 

[smallmovesal]

you're not a fucking computer warik... so get off of it.

 

[Warik]

Observation:

I've responded to almost everyone who has made a comment involving me.

Note: almost everyone.

-Warik

 

[HumorMe]

*munching popcorn* And to think I almost watched Will and Grace tonight.

Gymtime

I'm out of popcorn...can you spare some?

 

[smallmovesal]

Observation:

I've responded to almost everyone who has made a comment involving me.

Note: almost everyone.

-Warik

"wah"

you just don't have the skills to defeat me in an intellectual challenge since i've already smoked you once... heh heh

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

My skin is quite thick. Your prior, and current, insult had no effect on me. I'm simply stating fact that is relevant to this argument, and you are cleverly formulating subtle insults based on what I said. If you had not noticed, that accomplishes nothing.

They say I have no empathy. Sorry if I think with my brain and not my feelings.

What exactly are you trying to prove by arguing against my points?

I implied that gays were at high risk for AIDS infection. Do you believe that is incorrect?

I said that suicide was optional. Do you believe that is incorrect?

I said that there is no such thing as a valid reason for suicide. Do you believe that is incorrect?

How is it possible that someone has the right to dress a certain way, but I do not have the right to passively dislike it? I don't have the right to passively dislike someone's attire, yet you have the right to actively dislike my arguments? There's more hypocrisy here than on Capitol Hill. YIKES

Do you realize that even people who agree with you will take sides against you because you are so utterly repellent? I doubt that you care enough about the people around you to understand what I'm saying to you, but I will point out that making arguements that alienate your entire audience is fruitless regardless of the merits of your positions. You lack tact, grace, empathy, wit, personality, or any of the other qualities that make for an effect speaker/writer. I suspect that you have some dim inkling of this and that this is the reason you come on to these boards and provoke people, because at least this way you can get a little human contact or attention, because normally your rel world flat-affect/sociopath detachedly amused demeanor probably creeps people out to the point where they won't give you the time of day.

It's not too late! You can get help. I'd start looking for good shrink soon, though. You'll know it's too late when you start cutting up cats and frogs, or maybe lighting fires and then going home and wetting the bed you sleep in in your parent's house.

Wyst

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Warik,

I caught that. I wonder if your implicit target did.

Interestingly, at medical conferences and discussions on AIDS, gays are often the MOST informed, most knowledgeable, most up to date.

If new infections indicate risk of AIDS, gays' risk is decreasing. Straight black males are highest-risk group now.

 

[gymtime]

Gymtime

I'm out of popcorn...can you spare some?

Soytainly.

 

[flexed1]

Ryan when folks find out I am gay its after the fact and they know me as a person. you see I don't like what is portrayed in the media as it does not represent me. my ex ( the one on survivor) has taken on this entire femine gay thing and it sickens me as podunk towns think this is what every gay guy is like. when they do find out its never been a problem and I can't recall ever being shunned on. my personal life is just that and all know my current boyfriend who like me is not what is perceived as gay. actually he had a college scholarship to be a point guard at university of Akron Ohio.

and as for gays being the leaders in having aids the community as a hole has improved so much on this and gay aids cases have fallen as aids straight cases have risen. aids is not only a gay disease it unlike some here has no bias.

many third world countries lead the world in aids cases and its not because there gay. some of us need to pull our heads out of our asses and realize we are bigots.

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

How is it possible that someone has the right to dress a certain way, but I do not have the right to passively dislike it? I don't have the right to passively dislike someone's attire, yet you have the right to actively dislike my arguments? There's more hypocrisy here than on Capitol Hill. YIKES

You're not passively disliking it. I'm objecting to the way you purposely post your sophomoric opinions in such insulting and insensitive ways.

 

[wyst]

"wah"

you just don't have the skills to defeat me in an intellectual challenge since i've already smoked you once... heh heh

Heh. He's a coward. We had a really funny debate the other night, where the only way he could back up or even explain his opinion was to say, in effect:

why is what I think right? For the same reason 2+2=4. It just is.

He just kept pulling his mr spock this-does-not-compute thing with his debate club wannabe tactics and never could actually put together a single reasonable explanation for his position. I'm not saying he didn't convince me, I'm saying that when it came down to having some substance behind his lame attitude...well, let's just say he couldn't get it up.

As you say, he has very little life experience to back up these opinions that he must have picked up on talk radio somewhere.

Wyst

 

[smallmovesal]

well it sucks to be intellectually "bitch slapped" by a hot smart chick, doesn't it?

 

[HumorMe]

Soytainly.

Thanks!

 

[Warik]

Warik,

I caught that. I wonder if your implicit target did.

Evidently not judging by the length of this thread and the number of posts aimed at my destruction.

I wish people could leave feelings out of arguments and try to discuss the issues themselves. If someone's family member was murdered by an armed mugger, I'd immediately be labled as a "fucking idiot" if I said that everyone should have the right to carry a gun. I think RyanH and I are the only people who aren't trying to turn this into a flame war. At least his response to me was civil.

Oh well. Can't expect much more from an Internet chat board (yup... I'm stereotyping Internet chat boards. I should be more empathic... the chat board's feelings might be hurt ).

-Warik

 

[wyst]

He's too starved for affection/attention to want to challenge someone popular/hot like you, smalls. He craves attention only as a replacement for affection, so of course he won't put up much resistance.

 

[Warik]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

You're not passively disliking it.

It's quite simple.

I see a gay guy.

He's dressed "gay" and is acting "gay."

I think: "Damn... I don't like that."

And I keep walking.

How was I not passive? Did I grab him by the shirt, start yelling anti-homosexual remarks, and insist that he get rid of that lisp? Jeez. Maybe if I shake his hand and congratulate him for dressing ridiculously, you'll approve.

I'm objecting to the way you purposely post your sophomoric opinions in such insulting and insensitive ways.

Let me give you a tip: Objecting to something by exemplifying it is rarely, if ever, successful.

-Warik

 

[smallmovesal]

He's too starved for affection/attention to want to challenge someone popular/hot like you, smalls. He craves attention only as a replacement for affection, so of course he won't put up much resistance.

you forgot "devestatingly smart"

 

[wyst]

Evidently not judging by the length of this thread and the number of posts aimed at my destruction.

I wish people could leave feelings out of arguments and try to discuss the issues themselves. If someone's family member was murdered by an armed mugger, I'd immediately be labled as a "fucking idiot" if I said that everyone should have the right to carry a gun. I think RyanH and I are the only people who aren't trying to turn this into a flame war. At least his response to me was civil.

Oh well. Can't expect much more from an Internet chat board (yup... I'm stereotyping Internet chat boards. I should be more empathic... the chat board's feelings might be hurt ).

-Warik

I didn't immediately label you a fucking idiot, Warik. I came to that conclusion after careful consideration of past runins with you and the bile you spread.

But I do regret calling you a fucking idiot, because I'm sure it gave you just the superiority jollies you were looking for.

You're the one who brought feelings into this with your insulting posts. This was a civil thread until you joined it. How sad that you don't have the empathy/EQ to understand that.

Wyst

 

[wyst]

you forgot "devestatingly smart"

Ooops, my bad!



Wyst

 

[JohnyJuice]

Generally, a person's sexuality brings a whole new set of pressures---similar to some of the pressures many African-Americans experience.

Now why do yuo have to g bringing up this horse shit. I was enjoying your post until i happened upon this. Why do you have such white-guilt?

 

[flexed1]

Warik if you saw me or others like me you would not even give a second look as you would not know i was gay.Your problem appears to be with something you sterotype and I guess thats fine. My problem is by doing so you close your mind to everything else thus the back and forth arguments you feel need to present. I already know hwere you are on the issue so as we have said before I will agree to disagree. You seem to have a problem with perception of the way people act and how they dress in the gay culture but maybe you need to see more of the world to see your perception MAY be incorect. I respect your opinion just don't agree. And don't touch my shirt its Prada and I will kick your ass.

 

[wyst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: being GAY.

How was I not passive? Did I grab him by the shirt, start yelling anti-homosexual remarks, and insist that he get rid of that lisp? Jeez. Maybe if I shake his hand and congratulate him for dressing ridiculously, you'll approve.



Let me give you a tip: Objecting to something by exemplifying it is rarely, if ever, successful.

-Warik

Your were quite aggressive in your approach to this thread, Warik. I don't know what your approach to life is, obviously. You came into a thread about a man being saddened by the death of his gay friend and started making insensitive remarks stereotyping gay men, and showing a complete lack of understanding or empathy for someone grieving for a friend's death.

I think your insistence on pulling this thread away from the topic of suicide brought on by attitudes such as yours in favor of saying gay men dress ridiculously, as exemplified by the above quote pretty much tell the whole story.

Wyst


Oh, thanks for the tip. But you seem to fail to realize that I was posting condolences to RyanH before you joined the thread, not insulting him.

 

[Warik]

But I do regret calling you a fucking idiot, because I'm sure it gave you just the superiority jollies you were looking for.

It sure did. Though I'm not proud of the fact that I haven't called anyone a "fucking idiot," because, of course (borrowing from my "children's time out" posts) "YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL PEOPLE 'FUCKING IDIOTS!!!!'"

You're the one who brought feelings into this with your insulting posts.

Haven't you learned from what I said about suicide? Nobody can "make" someone commit suicide, just as nobody can "make" someone feel insulted. I was simply stating fact. Am I insulted when people say that males ages 18-24 are among the highest at risk for automobile accidents? NO! CAUSE IT'S FACT! Jeez.

This was a civil thread until you joined it.

Seeing as how I haven't intended to insult anyone (note that I don't say "yet," because I don't plan to either), I believe the thread is still civil. It hasn't turned into a flame war. I'm hoping you, and others, can calm down and discuss the issues at hand, and retort with fact as opposed to "you're a fucking idiot with no logic skills and no empathy! diediedie!" Please, I know you're older than that.

-Warik

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Most, if not all, stereotypes are based on truths!

And? The problem with stereotypes lies not in the fact that they're partly based on truths. No, that's not even the point - it is the very nature of stereotypes that's problematic. They're insidious because the internalization of these logical reductions through the process of acculturation usually goes unnoticed - have you not heard of the expression "imbibing hatred with their mother's milk"? Once ingrained, it is very hard for some people to even accept how their view of the world has been tainted by these grossly oversimplifying formulas.

Unfortunately, many prefer to live in a deep state of denial rather than confront and dispose of these almost indelible, mental "lenses" that reduce reality to a badly written play, in which all the characters are flat, the action is purposeless, and the ending is always nauseatingly predictable. That must get boring after awhile.

 

[Warik]

Warik if you saw me or others like me you would not even give a second look as you would not know i was gay.

I don't disagree with that AT ALL. I'm not saying that ALL gays wear tight hot pink shirts, have limp wrists, and talk with lisps. I'm saying that people who DO wear tight pink shirts AND have limp wrists AND talk with lisps are TYPICALLY gay.

The stereotype, as far as I know, is not "gays do this" - it's "people who do this are gay."

You seem to have a problem with perception of the way people act and how they dress in the gay culture but maybe you need to see more of the world to see your perception MAY be incorect.

Not necessarily. It has nothing to do SPECIFICALLY with the gay culture. It has to do with people who do certain things - exhibiting the above qualities is an example of such things.

Do I disapprove and disagree with the exhibition of the above, among other, qualities. Yes - and I won't deny it.

Do I think those who exhibit these qualities should be prohibited from doing so? No. Like I said before - people should have the right to do anything they want to do as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. If the right to never have to see something one dislikes existed, then everyone would have to live in seclusion.

My philosophy? "Do it. I may not like it, and I have the right not to, but I won't stop you from doing it."

I respect your opinion just don't agree.

Thanks for being civil. I, of course, respect yours as well, but I also don't agree. =)

And don't touch my shirt its Prada and I will kick your ass.

Wouldn't dream of it.

-Warik

 

[Warik]

BTW: I'm going to sleep now. Think of your best childish flames and hit me in the morning. To those of you who are actually discussing (i.e. Matt, flexed1, RyanH), I hope to see more intelligent stuff in the morning.

Night.

-Warik

 

[wyst]

It sure did.

I guess that's the difference between you and me. I'm saying what I think, because it's important to me, not for any jollies.

And I think it is important to point out that your posts are inappropriate. Just because you didn't respond to my profanity doesn't make your posts any less insulting or insensitive. Just because you remove all trace of emotion from a post does not make it reasonable, appropriate, or impressive. Post your opinions with a modicum of tact and sensitivity and people might respond to them more reasonbly and respect them a bit more. I mean, seriously, there are plenty of gay bashers on Ef, and yet not one of them has come to your defense. Don't you find that interesting?

 

[flexed1]

Warik and I don't always agree but I would be a liar if I said nelly femine guys don't bother me as they do. Don't hate them as I hate nobody just don't want others thinking we are all like that. Sorry to be so far away from the original reason for the post on this one but new replies sometimes warrant new answers. Good night.

 

[starfish]

wyst,

I have to agree with you. You can be the smartest man in the world but who is going to want to listen to you when there is such arrorgance??? The world just doesn't work that way.






Oh and those guys in pink shirts with limp hands are great too.

 

[buddy28]

Re: Re: being GAY.

I honestly don't care as long as I don't have to be subjected to witnessing any acts of homosexuality or flagrant displays of flaming gayness (i.e. tight pink shirts with limp wrists and a nasty liTHHHHHP), but I wish you'd stop crying about it. Wahhh homosexuals are stereotyped! How many times do I have to say it?

Most, if not all, stereotypes are based on truths!

-Warik

Warik, if i can intrude, sterotyping groups of people prevents recognition of an individuals real needs and struggles by reducing their character and motivations to preconcieved notions of how they *should* be, rather than how they *are*.

Like Stumpy said, its easy. Sterotyping negates the need for empathetic understanding of the individual and their problems.

 

[smallmovesal]

wyst you have pm...

sleep tight warik... don't let the gay men bite.

 

[JohnyJuice]

I don't understand why some of you people jumped on Warik. Yes, he didn't come into the conversation saying "I'm sorry for your loss, dadada", but i dont think that is what Ryan wanted out of this thread. He brought up questions which were reasonable, looking for a reasonable response (suprisingly out of character for him. I half expected him to blame white heterosexuals for every plight that homosexuals have). Warik hasn't stated anything unreasonable. Guys who talk with a lisp and have broken wrists: Never met one who wasnt gay.
Good majority of Aids cases (in 2000) involved homosexuals: Fact.
He dissaproves of gays acting in a gay manner: Fact
I don't like seeing that shit either. Face it folks, gays are out of the norm, and therefore social deviants.
Also, about the stereotyping... Warik is correct. Most stereotypes exist for a reason. Ex: The irish are drunks. Well, the Irish drink alot. Calling Italians greaseballs. Well guess what..I am Italian and i have oily skin. Etc. Get over yourselves people.

P.S. If anyone has a complex, it is you Smalltitsal. You have a serious need for attention.