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Are You Still Using This? STOP!!!

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
.


10 Outdated and Overrated Compounds You're Better Off Without.



#10: Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - :

Said it beofe, I'll say it again -- this is the poster child for disaterous steroids. There's talk of it being elliminated completely from the legit market. If you love it, use it. But a bloating compond that causes impotence is the worst of both worlds.

#9: Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate -

This was never a "first choice" drug. Teslac was always considered better. (Much like Proviron but stronger). But Teslac never caught on because of its price. Since then many other much better anti e's have come along and the effectivness of Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - has been shown to be virtually worthless is almost every bodybuilding application. Yet, it will not go away. Habits, and misinformation, die hard.

#8; Prohormones (or pro-steroids or whatever they're calling that crap these days)

Ten times the side effects and virtually none of the benefits of steroids! Woo hoo! At least it's a chemical! I'm on drugs dude!

#7: Tribulus

This stuff ever really did much but it was all we had in terms of a natrual assistance to boosting T and lh - leutenizing hormone - . The results were so slight they were inconsequntial. UNLEASHED actually accomplishes what Trib tried to.

#6: Vet Gear

This will be my battle cray until I'm dead and I know it'll never be completely accepted but vet gear just ain't right. Three decades into its use people still report weird side effects of which will never be answered becuase (THERE HASN'T BEEN AS SINGLE STUDY ON THE USE OF VET GEAR IN HUMANS). I just don't trust it. Yeah, yeah, trenbolone is awesome. But if you can't get good results with a good amount reasonably safer shit, you suck anyway so why bother?

#5: Nitric Oxide.

Actually not a bad supp -- overhyped for sure, but not bad for increasing pump. Newer versions are better but now that there's this... http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=918&cat=0&page=1 ... there's no use taking plain old NO2.

#4 DNP

If you fuck yourself up with this, you deserve what was coming to you. Harsh, but true.


#3: Bridges

Stop fooling yourself. Get out and get clean. If you need something full time, go on HR T. It's 2007 for crissakes.


#2: Whey Concentrate

It's almost not even worth supplementing with whey concentrate since the BV is so weak. And that's the main ingredient in most MRP's. Any food source would be better. There are so many superior options today -- isolate, cross filtered, even whole egg is better than concentrate. And NO FOOD SOURCE has the nitrogen retention qualities of Super Plasma Serum. If you're going to "supplement" doesn't it make sense to do it with something that you can't get any other way? The best source of Super Plasma Serum? Forget it. The cost is out of bounds. But BIG BLAST contains 10% super plasma serum. That's the highest amount you'll find in any commercial product. In fact, it's the only one.

#1: Mega Doses

Let's face it. You ain't Mr. Olympia. You will never be Mr. Olympia. There is no point in using mega doses. If you train hard and have your diet in check, you can make great gains on moderate dosages. Twice as much gear will not yield twice as much muscle. (It will however yield twice the side effects). Even if you're a casual lifter who is really just a lazy fuck who doesn't want to work hard and uses steroids to make it easier -- more won't do more for you. They only do so much, the excess is pissed away. And it causes damage in the process.


Responses are welcome. (Pointless insults from the pathetic AF gang are not).

Any other thing that everybody seems to love that you feel is worthless? Let us know.
 
again I respectfully but highly disagree with parts of your post nelson

especially in considerations to vet gear,I've used equipoise,trenbolone acetate,vet grade testosterone enanthate and have gotten great results without any side effects you've mentioned in another thread.

@ your "Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - has been shown to be virtually worthless is almost every bodybuilding application."

man,that was a serious stretch beyond reality.nolvadex is great to use against gynecomastia,if you think otherwise you're simply mistaken imo

I would have to say you're making huge generalizations that simply don't hold water,no offense
 
hyp1 said:
again I respectfully but highly disagree with parts of your post nelson

especially in considerations to vet gear,I've used equipoise,trenbolone acetate,vet grade testosterone enanthate and have gotten great results without any side effects you've mentioned in another thread.

nolvadex is great to use against gynecomastia,if you think otherwise you're simply mistaken imo

I would have to say you're making huge generalizations that simply don't hold water,no offense


how do you feel about the deca???

btw whats up hyp? :)
 
hey sincere81oo0:)

I would say nelson is kinda going overboard on deca durabolin too,the compound isn't that bad imo,and kickass gains can be made from using it.

does it shut you down?for most people yes it does,but that's precisely what post cycle therapy is for and measures can be taken even while on deca durabolin like getting on hcg maintenance so shut down will be kept to a minimum.
 
Responses are welcome. (Pointless insults from the pathetic AF gang are not).

Not a good way to keep some of the few of us who are on the AF board, but still try to learn something over here, Mr. Wyoming. Now we are even.
 
Nolva is very effective against gyno but 97% of the people using it would never get gyno anyway. And if you're suseptable there are plenty of ways to avoid it without having to resort to using nolvaa.

PC T is not a cure all, and what is the cure for excess progesterone? That's a big factor in the sides of Decca.
 
Nelson Montana said:
.


10 Outdated and Overrated Compounds You're Better Off Without.



#10: Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - :

Said it beofe, I'll say it again -- this is the poster child for disaterous steroids. There's talk of it being elliminated completely from the legit market. If you love it, use it. But a bloating compond that causes impotence is the worst of both worlds. I just have to say I love deca I use it in all my cycles.for most people prob about 80% deca is crap but for a few of us like me its gold..I never get limp dick ever from it and I dont make the gains I make with out in a cycle.Its my test pretty much...I am still trying to figure out why this is...

#9: Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate -

This was never a "first choice" drug. Teslac was always considered better. (Much like Proviron but stronger). But Teslac never caught on because of its price. Since then many other much better anti e's have come along and the effectivness of Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - has been shown to be virtually worthless is almost every bodybuilding application. Yet, it will not go away. Habits, and misinformation, die hard. I would also like to say do a nice long search on the side effect of this drug..it will blow your mind

#8; Prohormones (or pro-steroids or whatever they're calling that crap these days)

Ten times the side effects and virtually none of the benefits of steroids! Woo hoo! At least it's a chemical! I'm on drugs dude! lmao I was a dumb ass back in the day I took adrosteen when it first came out.lol it worked but it was dumb then and its dumb now.

#7: Tribulus

This stuff ever really did much but it was all we had in terms of a natrual assistance to boosting T and lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . The results were so slight they were inconsequntial. UNLEASHED actually accomplishes what Trib tried to. there is deff better stuff out there but hell I still use it all the time ill use any thing that will give me even a tiny bit more if its dont cause any health problems..its not my first chose.I dont expect to much from it but if I got the extra cash ill add it to one of my pree made caps from custom caps...still if I had to make a chose it would not be any where nere the top of my list..

#6: Vet Gear

This will be my battle cray until I'm dead and I know it'll never be completely accepted but vet gear just ain't right. Three decades into its use people still report weird side effects of which will never be answered becuase (THERE HASN'T BEEN AS SINGLE STUDY ON THE USE OF VET GEAR IN HUMANS). I just don't trust it. Yeah, yeah, trenbolone is awesome. But if you can't get good results with a good amount reasonably safer shit, you suck anyway so why bother?

#5: Nitric Oxide.

Actually not a bad supp -- overhyped for sure, but not bad for increasing pump. Newer versions are better but now that there's this... http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=918&cat=0&page=1 ... there's no use taking plain old NO2.true true no2 is old there is much better out there.

#4 DNP

If you fuck yourself up with this, you deserve what was coming to you. Harsh, but true.
yup

#3: Bridges

Stop fooling yourself. Get out and get clean. If you need something full time, go on HR T. It's 2007 for crissakes.


#2: Whey Concentrate

It's almost not even worth supplementing with whey concentrate since the BV is so weak. And that's the main ingredient in most MRP's. Any food source would be better. There are so many superior options today -- isolate, cross filtered, even whole egg is better than concentrate. And NO FOOD SOURCE has the nitrogen retention qualities of Super Plasma Serum. If you're going to "supplement" doesn't it make sense to do it with something that you can't get any other way? The best source of Super Plasma Serum? Forget it. The cost is out of bounds. But BIG BLAST contains 10% super plasma serum. That's the highest amount you'll find in any commercial product. In fact, it's the only one.
I dont know man...ill just skip this one.

#1: Mega Doses

Let's face it. You ain't Mr. Olympia. You will never be Mr. Olympia. There is no point in using mega doses. If you train hard and have your diet in check, you can make great gains on moderate dosages. Twice as much gear will not yield twice as much muscle. (It will however yield twice the side effects). Even if you're a casual lifter who is really just a lazy fuck who doesn't want to work hard and uses steroids to make it easier -- more won't do more for you. They only do so much, the excess is pissed away. And it causes damage in the process.
nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but your right


Responses are welcome. (Pointless insults from the pathetic AF gang are not).

Any other thing that everybody seems to love that you feel is worthless? Let us know.
good thread,,,,,,,,,,,
 
Cool, fab post.

I have read a few papers that have also echoed what you have just stated.

Would you put up more information about whey protein please.

I am not keen on whey isolate, it spikes insulin more that table sugar. Not great when you are dieting, possibly ok post workout.

Personally, I think people get type 2 diabetes from 'burning' out their pancreas, which is the gland that secretes insulin in response to high blood glucose levels.

x
x
x

T
 
Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is not obsolete that is fucking bullshit it has been used effectively for 30 years
when you make such claims please present us with links tests and studies and evidence behind your personal opinions

show me a few tests that determined Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - as obsolete and I will gladly mark my words.

you are a good bro nelson but sometimes i fear you are far outdated

who is endorsing you to make these radical claims

people go overboards on substances, yes.
 
holy ghost said:
Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is not obsolete that is fucking bullshit it has been used effectively for 30 years
when you make such claims please present us with links tests and studies and evidence behind your personal opinions

show me a few tests that determined Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - as obsolete and I will gladly mark my words.

you are a good bro nelson but sometimes i fear you are far outdated

who is endorsing you to make these radical claims

people go overboards on substances, yes.
come on bro nelson is just making some claims bro.you could just talk to him about them rather then fight with him...I know your a down as g and thats how you come off but put the gun down.lol
 
im not fighting with him, it is an automatical felony for elderly battery, lord knows i dont need another one LOL

he knows i respect him i have told him many times
im keeping on debate level not personal
except for maybe that who is endorsing you comment lol
 
disagree with everything you just wrote. decca is one of my favorite compounds for the last 10 or so years.. and the products you recommended are not any better..
 
hyp1 said:
hey sincere81oo0:)

I would say nelson is kinda going overboard on Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin too,the compound isn't that bad imo,and kickass gains can be made from using it.

does it shut you down?for most people yes it does,but that's precisely what post cycle therapy is for and measures can be taken even while on Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin like getting on HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - maintenance so shut down will be kept to a minimum.


i agree, deca has always given me amazing gains and the only downside i have had was shutting me down.... i have already found a great way to beat that with an hcg and igf-1 lr3 combo... works wonders and actually kept gaining post instead of losing... kind balanced me out made me loss water weight but gain muscle and new cut... little secret for you bros, shhhhh :)
 
holy ghost said:
im not fighting with him, it is an automatical felony for elderly battery, lord knows i dont need another one LOL

he knows i respect him i have told him many times
im keeping on debate level not personal
except for maybe that who is endorsing you comment lol
lol you a good shit man....
 
OK Nelson, so what would you recommend as the best choice to go with if you like deca, but not the sides that come with it? what gear is comparable in your book to deca? How do you feel about NPP? the same way?
 
Nelson Montana said:
.


10 Outdated and Overrated Compounds You're Better Off Without.



#10: Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - :

Said it beofe, I'll say it again -- this is the poster child for disaterous steroids. There's talk of it being elliminated completely from the legit market. If you love it, use it. But a bloating compond that causes impotence is the worst of both worlds.

#9: Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate -

This was never a "first choice" drug. Teslac was always considered better. (Much like Proviron but stronger). But Teslac never caught on because of its price. Since then many other much better anti e's have come along and the effectivness of Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - has been shown to be virtually worthless is almost every bodybuilding application. Yet, it will not go away. Habits, and misinformation, die hard.

#8; Prohormones (or pro-steroids or whatever they're calling that crap these days)

Ten times the side effects and virtually none of the benefits of steroids! Woo hoo! At least it's a chemical! I'm on drugs dude!

#7: Tribulus

This stuff ever really did much but it was all we had in terms of a natrual assistance to boosting T and lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . The results were so slight they were inconsequntial. UNLEASHED actually accomplishes what Trib tried to.

#6: Vet Gear

This will be my battle cray until I'm dead and I know it'll never be completely accepted but vet gear just ain't right. Three decades into its use people still report weird side effects of which will never be answered becuase (THERE HASN'T BEEN AS SINGLE STUDY ON THE USE OF VET GEAR IN HUMANS). I just don't trust it. Yeah, yeah, trenbolone is awesome. But if you can't get good results with a good amount reasonably safer shit, you suck anyway so why bother?

#5: Nitric Oxide.

Actually not a bad supp -- overhyped for sure, but not bad for increasing pump. Newer versions are better but now that there's this... http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=918&cat=0&page=1 ... there's no use taking plain old NO2.

#4 DNP

If you fuck yourself up with this, you deserve what was coming to you. Harsh, but true.


#3: Bridges

Stop fooling yourself. Get out and get clean. If you need something full time, go on HR T. It's 2007 for crissakes.


#2: Whey Concentrate

It's almost not even worth supplementing with whey concentrate since the BV is so weak. And that's the main ingredient in most MRP's. Any food source would be better. There are so many superior options today -- isolate, cross filtered, even whole egg is better than concentrate. And NO FOOD SOURCE has the nitrogen retention qualities of Super Plasma Serum. If you're going to "supplement" doesn't it make sense to do it with something that you can't get any other way? The best source of Super Plasma Serum? Forget it. The cost is out of bounds. But BIG BLAST contains 10% super plasma serum. That's the highest amount you'll find in any commercial product. In fact, it's the only one.

#1: Mega Doses

Let's face it. You ain't Mr. Olympia. You will never be Mr. Olympia. There is no point in using mega doses. If you train hard and have your diet in check, you can make great gains on moderate dosages. Twice as much gear will not yield twice as much muscle. (It will however yield twice the side effects). Even if you're a casual lifter who is really just a lazy fuck who doesn't want to work hard and uses steroids to make it easier -- more won't do more for you. They only do so much, the excess is pissed away. And it causes damage in the process.


Responses are welcome. (Pointless insults from the pathetic AF gang are not).

Any other thing that everybody seems to love that you feel is worthless? Let us know.

Deca: If you are prone to issues or dont know how to counteract them then yes stay away. If you are smarter than the average beginner AAS user, you know your body and how it reacts to this compound then there should be no problem


BS though on the Whey Concentrate's Biological Value (104). Its higher than an egg which is 100. Whey Isolates are through the roof (159)

Theoretically BV's are not supposed to go higher than an egg at 100 but to show how effective Whey is they showin terms of BV rating.
http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Tips/Tips/protein-chart.htm

The rest I am not fond of anyway.

Bridges are a matter of personal opinion. No you will not recover your HPTA but you will give yourself a break from bloat, High blood pressure and screwing up your HDL/LDL levels.
 
ironclaw said:
OK Nelson, so what would you recommend as the best choice to go with if you like Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , but not the sides that come with it? what gear is comparable in your book to Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - ? How do you feel about NPP - Nandrolone PhenylPropionate - ? the same way?


Are you looking for something else that makes you impotent?

(Sorry I don't have any links or text to support the impotence claim).

Lots of steroids work bro.

If everybody who got their nutsack in a twist about Decca would read the original post you'll see I said: "if you like it, use it."
 
Sorry, but I highly disagree with you about the nolvadex and vet gear. Test is test...I did some veterinary enanthate from Upjohn back in the late 80's...it was my first cycle and kicked my ass! The only bad thing about vet gear, especially what used to come out of Mexico was impurities or underdosed....otherwise...test is test.
 
MASSIVE1000 said:
Sorry, but I highly disagree with you about the nolvadex and vet gear. Test is test...I did some veterinary enanthate from Upjohn back in the late 80's...it was my first cycle and kicked my ass! The only bad thing about vet gear, especially what used to come out of Mexico was impurities or underdosed....otherwise...test is test.


I wonder about the quality of substances for human or animal consumption.

Let's look at this logically and take something not steroid, pet food.

Meat destined for animal food is often labelled, not fit for human consumption.

Would great quality meat be rendered into pet food?

Well it is, but you have to go to bonkers places like around Sloane Square where people have more money than sense most of the time.

So let's look at the logic of the economics.

Medical grade steroids are used clinically. Pharmaceutical companies are VERY CONCERNED about being sued, so they would have all sorts of quality, sterility and manufacturing controls. Actually, don't get me started on pharmaceutical companies, as they do all sorts of RUTHLESS and DIABOLICAL things.

What are animal steroids used for?

Yes some are used clinically in animals, but having grown up around quite a few farmers, the vet comes out, says "your cow is sick, it will cost X to make it better", and the farmer puts the cow down and sells it for pet food.

There is a HUGE economic basis to the drugs industry. There is a HUGE economic basis to the production of food, cause everyone wants cheap food.


How do you make more meat fast? Give it loads of steroids, cheap steroids.

So yes, in a certain sense testosterone is testosterone. All steroids are derived from naturally occurring testosterone, dihydrotestosterone or nandrolone.

A few manipulations of double bonds, add a hydroxy group (OH), you get the idea, and BINGO, you have hundreds upon hundreds of variations of testosterone.

However, I do not think that the quality of human or animal grade hormones would be the same.
 
how about the animal protein that proteinfactory uses

isnt that also labeled not for human consumption?

just kidding nelson, thought id stur up some shit =P
 
Good work Nelson.

You have successfully created enough quasi-debatable filler and silly comments in your post to plug a couple supps without people ignoring you completely, all the while keeping the original product mentions post active.
 
Opinions are like.... you know what.

You are making broad strokes with a big brush. Way too general. A joke.

You then take the opportunity to promote your supplements. Lame. Nuff said.


:rolleyes:
 
broad stroaks with a small brush *

yeah the supp pushing gets old

i read through that shit

the man has to get his hustle on too
 
Nelson Montana said:
Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - is very effective against gynecomastia but 97% of the people using it would never get gynecomastia anyway. And if you're suseptable there are plenty of ways to avoid it without having to resort to using nolvaa.

PC T is not a cure all, and what is the cure for excess progesterone? That's a big factor in the sides of Decca.


I was speaking for estrogen induced gynecomastia of course for nolvadex use,it works mindlblowingly well also......I might add.I find your 97% of people aren't prone to it estimate way out of bounds though,nelson.certainly there are more people prone to it than that.

as far as progesterone induced gynecomastia I would say dostinex and Femera - letrozole - are to be used to combat it.

as far as post cycle therapy or HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - therapy during cycle it does help to restart natural testosterone production,and in essence enables people to keep most if not all of their gains.
 
Use of Non-Pharmaceutical Grade Compounds

For animal research, investigators are expected to use pharmaceutical-grade compounds whenever these are available, even in acute procedures.

Issues such as sterility, pyrogenicity, stability, pharmacokinetics, and quality control have usually been addressed during the course of producing pharmaceutical-grade drugs, but one cannot say the same for substances produced in the research laboratory. The use of non-pharmaceutical-grade chemical compounds in experimental animals is, however, a necessary and acceptable component of biomedical research.
 
Question about Big Blast...how many times a day do most of you guys take this stuff if you are taking it? If you were taking it twice a day a months supply would cost you 150 bucks! That is fuckin a shit load for just a protein supplement!
 
mikediesel04 said:
Question about Big Blast...how many times a day do most of you guys take this stuff if you are taking it? If you were taking it twice a day a months supply would cost you 150 bucks! That is fuckin a shit load for just a protein supplement!

Not really. BIG BLAST is 15 bucks a pound. A typical low grade MRP goes for around 10 bucks a pound. There's no comparison.

Super Plasma Serum goes for close to 50 bucks a pound -- wholesale. You get what you pay for.

The amount of nitrogen you absord from SPS is ten times that of your ordinary whey protein. Plus, with BIG BLAST you don't need to buy creatine. So it's actually a very good price. Granted, it isn't for everyone. But if you want something that's going to help you maintain gains, or something that will give you better growth naturally than anything else, it's the best you can use. It's as simple as that.
 
hyp1 said:
hey sincere81oo0:)

I would say nelson is kinda going overboard on Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin too,the compound isn't that bad imo,and kickass gains can be made from using it.

does it shut you down?for most people yes it does,but that's precisely what post cycle therapy is for and measures can be taken even while on Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin like getting on HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - maintenance so shut down will be kept to a minimum.


I think nelsons deal is though why take one drug to counter act another. I have udes deca once before and just started it again today. i have never had a problem with it. we will see what happens with this one.

Whatcha been up to brotha?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Are you looking for something else that makes you impotent?

(Sorry I don't have any links or text to support the impotence claim).

Lots of steroids work bro.

If everybody who got their nutsack in a twist about Decca would read the original post you'll see I said: "if you like it, use it."
tis true he did say that...thats why I said what he said is mostly true..there are however some deca die hards out there..we are the few who react way deferent
to the compound then every one else dos...
 
tatyana_zadorozny said:
I wonder about the quality of substances for human or animal consumption.

Let's look at this logically and take something not steroid, pet food.

Meat destined for animal food is often labelled, not fit for human consumption.

Would great quality meat be rendered into pet food?

Well it is, but you have to go to bonkers places like around Sloane Square where people have more money than sense most of the time.

So let's look at the logic of the economics.

Medical grade steroids are used clinically. Pharmaceutical companies are VERY CONCERNED about being sued, so they would have all sorts of quality, sterility and manufacturing controls. Actually, don't get me started on pharmaceutical companies, as they do all sorts of RUTHLESS and DIABOLICAL things.

What are animal steroids used for?

Yes some are used clinically in animals, but having grown up around quite a few farmers, the vet comes out, says "your cow is sick, it will cost X to make it better", and the farmer puts the cow down and sells it for pet food.

There is a HUGE economic basis to the drugs industry. There is a HUGE economic basis to the production of food, cause everyone wants cheap food.


How do you make more meat fast? Give it loads of steroids, cheap steroids.

So yes, in a certain sense testosterone is testosterone. All steroids are derived from naturally occurring testosterone, dihydrotestosterone or nandrolone.

A few manipulations of double bonds, add a hydroxy group (OH), you get the idea, and BINGO, you have hundreds upon hundreds of variations of testosterone.

However, I do not think that the quality of human or animal grade hormones would be the same.

I have to agree with you 100% on this one tat.

I heard somewhere or reead somewhere that new vet gear companies in mexico are being pressured to make it at the human grade standard due to the the US knows that its people will use it. and they wanna prevent problems.
 
halfcenturian said:
Opinions are like.... you know what.

You are making broad strokes with a big brush. Way too general. A joke.

You then take the opportunity to promote your supplements. Lame. Nuff said.


:rolleyes:


He si given his opinion and yes pimpin his shit but what is wrong with that? no offense but if you dont like it go somewhere else. Like AF or c&c. SHIT!!!
 
just_A_Gazin said:


Dude you have 8 posts. You havent been around long enough to bump cups with anyone here yet.
 
mateo de la ley said:
All I can say is WOW...Hollywood awaits you.


Do you have mulitple NAMES on here. i see that all I can say is WOW from more than one person. i dount that many people use the same dumb ass phrase. IMO.
 
Nolva for me is always first choice for PCT. Not sure how you can brand it as worthless. There are a lot of good points you make but that one I disagree with.
 
Access said:
Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - for me is always first choice for PCT - post cycle therapy - . Not sure how you can brand it as worthless. There are a lot of good points you make but that one I disagree with.
have you tied dermacrin sustain bro... :)
 
needtogetaas said:
have you tied dermacrin sustain bro... :)

To be honest, no. I have been reading up a little on it though and I see a lot of guys using it with good results so that in itself is testament to a good product. I'm just wary of anything I don't know a lot about or able to find good research on.
 
Def. good info, but it seems the only the reason you create these threads is to use a different method to promote your products. I do respect you and you know your shit but damn thats all I see lately is good info by you followed by your products to fix the problem.
 
Access said:
To be honest, no. I have been reading up a little on it though and I see a lot of guys using it with good results so that in itself is testament to a good product. I'm just wary of anything I don't know a lot about or able to find good research on.
so pm me bro ill se what I can do about sending you a free bottle..I know once you try it you will change your mind about using any thing else for pct bro.
 
skullcrushin22 said:
Def. good info, but it seems the only the reason you create these threads is to use a different method to promote your products. I do respect you and you know your shit but damn thats all I see lately is good info by you followed by your products to fix the problem.

Hey bro, capitalism at its finest. Without it, we have no Rockefeller Center, no highways, no TV, no computers, no music. It's the imputus for provided service. The bottomline is, is the service good? That's all that matters. if you get information that helps, you win. If you decide not to spend a penny, you win. If you decide to try a prodyct and it works for you, you win. Why anyone has a problem with that, I'll never know.
 
errn247 said:
I think nelsons deal is though why take one drug to counter act another. I have udes Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - once before and just started it again today. i have never had a problem with it. we will see what happens with this one.

Whatcha been up to brotha?


not much bro,how the fuck you been?

I just find the generalizations that nelson makes kinda comical........especially about using vet grade gear,by his comments you would think EVERYONE was getting test flu from using it.oddly enough I've used shitloads of vet grade testosterone enanthate I got from south america,I've also used a shitload of trenbolone acetate and never experienced any type of of flu like symptoms....just really good gains.

also there is a lot of scientific evidence that nolvadex works and works well,and is far from ever being outdated in the bodybuilding community.however the same can't be said of nelsons products,unfortunately.
is it ok for him to try and sell his products?why yes of course....are they backed up his claims backed up by scientific data?not that I've seen anyway.

as far as deca durabolin being out dated that's yet another claim I find extremely premature.literally thousands of deca durabolin users that love the gains they are experiencing would argue about that.sexual side effects can be minimized with the proper amount of testosterone.
 
hyp1 said:
not much bro,how the fuck you been?

I just find the generalizations that nelson makes kinda comical........especially about using vet grade gear,by his comments you would think EVERYONE was getting test flu from using it.oddly enough I've used shitloads of vet grade testosterone enanthate I got from south america,I've also used a shitload of trenbolone acetate and never experienced any type of of flu like symptoms....just really good gains.

also there is a lot of scientific evidence that nolvadex works and works well,and is far from ever being outdated in the bodybuilding community.however the same can't be said of nelsons products,unfortunately.
is it ok for him to try and sell his products?why yes of course....are they backed up his claims backed up by scientific data?not that I've seen anyway.

as far as Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin being out dated that's yet another claim I find extremely premature.literally thousands of Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin users that love the gains they are experiencing would argue about that.sexual side effects can be minimized with the proper amount of testosterone.
where the hell you been? good to see you posting bro.
 
It's exactly as it appears... a way to create controversy and bring attention to his supplements and they're different "selling points". I have nothing against it tho and might try out a product or 2 sometime.
 
layinback said:
where the hell you been? good to see you posting bro.

thanks bro,

honestly?I've been checking out other boards the shit on here got a little too hypocritical for me.

great to see you too:)
 
hyp1 said:
not much bro,how the fuck you been?

I just find the generalizations that nelson makes kinda comical........especially about using vet grade gear,by his comments you would think EVERYONE was getting test flu from using it.


.............................................


NOT THE POINT BRO. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE GET THOSE SIDES TELL YOU SOMETHINGS UP. YOU'VE BEEN LUCKY. THAT'S GREAT. BUT I'M CALLING IT LIKE I SEE IT.



.................................................................
also there is a lot of scientific evidence that nolvadex works and works well,and is far from ever being outdated in the bodybuilding community.

.............................................

NOT TRUE. THERE'S A LOT OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT IT WORKS IN TREATING BREAST CANCER. THAT'S NOT THE DEAL HERE. AND I'VE ALREADY SAID, THAT IT'S THE BEST THING TO USE IN GYNO IS COMING ON. BUT GYNO CAN BE PREVENTED. AND I SEE GUYS DOING WINSTROL AND PRIMMO CYCLES AND USING NOLVA. IT'S POINLTESS. IT'S LIKE USING AN AIR CONDITIONER AT THE NORTH POLE.



...............................................................................



however the same can't be said of nelsons products,unfortunately.

..................................................

QUITE A BIT OF SCIENCE , QUITE A BIT OF ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE AND A HELL OF A LOT OF SATISFIED CUSTOMERS. DON'T KNOCK IT TILL YOU TRY IT.


...........................................................................

is it ok for him to try and sell his products?why yes of course....are they backed up his claims backed up by scientific data?not that I've seen anyway.

..............................................

CHECK OUT THE THREAD ON "THE MOST OVERLOOKED MUSCLE BUILDING SUBSTANCE." IT CONTAINS FIVE STUDIES FROM UNBIASED SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS.

.............................................

as far as Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin being out dated that's yet another claim I find extremely premature.literally thousands of Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin users that love the gains they are experiencing would argue about that.

.......................................................


LOTS OF PEOPLE LIKE LOTS OF THINGS. LIKE I SAID, IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, GREAT. BUT DON'T DENY IT CAUSES PROBLEMS.

.................................................

sexual side effects can be minimized with the proper amount of testosterone.

...............................................

WHICH CAUSES FURTHER SUPPRESSION

..
 
So the AF guys were assholes for giving advice and pimping their products but your advice is the gospel? Give me a fuckin break. Have you ever done Tren?
 
Nelson Montana said:
..
NOT THE POINT BRO. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE GET THOSE SIDES TELL YOU SOMETHINGS UP. YOU'VE BEEN LUCKY. THAT'S GREAT. BUT I'M CALLING IT LIKE I SEE IT.


NOT TRUE. THERE'S A LOT OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT IT WORKS IN TREATING BREAST CANCER. THAT'S NOT THE DEAL HERE. AND I'VE ALREADY SAID, THAT IT'S THE BEST THING TO USE IN gynecomastia IS COMING ON. BUT GYNO CAN BE PREVENTED. AND I SEE GUYS DOING WINSTROL AND PRIMMO CYCLES AND USING Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - . IT'S POINLTESS. IT'S LIKE USING AN AIR CONDITIONER AT THE NORTH POLE.

LOTS OF PEOPLE LIKE LOTS OF THINGS. LIKE I SAID, IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, GREAT. BUT DON'T DENY IT CAUSES PROBLEMS.

the fact most people don't get sides from vet grade gear and to say that most people do is a HUGE GENERALIZATION and not based in fact at all.

hmm no scientific evidence that nolvadex doesn't work for bodybuilding and to increase natural testosterone production?sorry bro but I strongly disagree.

In men,nolvadex acts as anti-estrogen in its capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result,which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.

What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline.The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values.

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy.

it's great for when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH.

I've never denied that deca durabolin can shut you down and trenbolone too for that matter....but as I've said measures can be taken to prevent being entirely shut down....and it's a seriously simple matter imo.
 
hyp1 said:
the fact most people don't get sides from vet grade gear and to say that most people do is a HUGE GENERALIZATION and not based in fact at all.

..........................

IT'S A FACT BRO. THERE ARE SIDES NOBODY CAN EXPLAIN.


...................................................

In men,nolvadex acts as anti-estrogen in its capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result,which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.

.......................................................

"CAN" IS THE OPERATIVE WORD HERE. PERSOANLLY, THE EVIDENCE ISN'T VERY CONVINCING. PLUS, NOLVAA CAUSES A SEVERE DROP IN LIBIDO IN A LOT OF PEOPLE.


.......................

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy.

.........................................

I HAVE TO QUESTION THIS. WHAT WERE THE BASELINES? BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY SOMEONE WITH A T LEVEL OF 500 WOULD HAVE A T OF OVER 1000 WITH THE USE OF NOLVAA.


..............................................................


I've never denied that Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - durabolin can shut you down and trenbolone too for that matter....but as I've said measures can be taken to prevent being entirely shut down....and it's a seriously simple matter imo.

........................................................

WHENEVER YOU USE ANOTHER DRUG TO OFFSET THE SIDE EFFECTS OF ANOTHER DRUG, YOU'RE STRESSING THE BODY MORE THAN NECESSARY. BUT AGAIN, IF YOU LIKE IT, I DON'T WANT TO CONVINCE YOU NOT TO USE IT.

,,
 
Interesting discussion this.

I have to say i disagree about the vet gear. Not that there aren't sides that hasn't been adequately explained. That is indisputable. Nor that the economic factors involved with production of human grade and vet grade gear differs in the incentives they offer the producer. I just think that some of the vet compounds like eq or tren offers something that other steroids dont. It may be that u suck if u cant grow off other compounds but its not just how much u grow its how too. I'm talking about the quality of the gains here. And yes: Primo offers some of the highest quality gains of all but that doesn't change the fact that the gains made from some of the vet gear is very high quality too. Besides the endurance u'll get from eq is mindblowing. I think that if anecdotal evidence can cut it for ur products Nelson it shouldn't be altogether discounted concerning vet gear. Actually what is lacking is scientific knowledge about these compounds' effect on humans but until such is avaliable there is "a lot of satisfied customers".

Most of the other claims i agree with including the one about deca. I dont think the gains are worth the bloat and the shutdown.
 
Nelson Montana said:
.



#1: Mega Doses

Let's face it. You ain't Mr. Olympia. You will never be Mr. Olympia. There is no point in using mega doses. If you train hard and have your diet in check, you can make great gains on moderate dosages. Twice as much gear will not yield twice as much muscle. (It will however yield twice the side effects). Even if you're a casual lifter who is really just a lazy fuck who doesn't want to work hard and uses steroids to make it easier -- more won't do more for you. They only do so much, the excess is pissed away. And it causes damage in the process.

i definettly agree with all your points especially the tribulus which is a waste of money and time, so many people i know have tried yet everyone is pissed off with it, however i disagree with your last post about mega doses, in my opinion the more muscle you have the more receptors you have so using a 2000mg a week of test wont go excess if you have the muscle, btw in my opinion almost everyone can make it to 140kg-150kg level, if they eat right,train like a fuckin monster,100% devoted to the sport and if they juice right.
 
rambleon said:
offers some of the highest quality gains of all but that doesn't change the fact that the gains made from some of the vet gear is very high quality too. Besides the endurance u'll get from Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - is mindblowing. I think that if anecdotal evidence can cut it for ur products Nelson it shouldn't be altogether discounted concerning vet gear. Actually what is lacking is scientific knowledge about these compounds' effect on humans but until such is avaliable there is "a lot of satisfied customers".

I actually didn't realise that a lot of you are taking vet gear until recently.

Personally, I think this is bonkers, having done quite a bit of reading on what the pharmaceutical companies do with drugs that are for human consumption.

Drug development costs a lot of money. So there is a huge economic incentive after investing so much money getting the drug into use.

There is a huge issue with clinical trials. The pharmaceutical companies often run quite short trials, and the sides of a lot of drugs occur after taking the substance for a longer period with the drug, or from drug-drug interactions, or when discontinuing the drugs.

So how is it discovered that a drug is dodgy?

It is people who experience side effects who TELL THEIR DOCTOR who then submit a special form to the drug governing body (depends on the country), and it is further investigated.

The other BIG issue is that pharmaceutical companies DO NOT have to publish any of the adverse events that occur with people during clinical trials.

In fact, a lot of them take people out of studies where they show adverse events.

Also, a lot of the people that are used to investigate drugs are young men, so the effect the drug may have on women, children or teenagers is really, often unknown.

I am sure some of you have heard some of the problems that have arisen from anti-depressants. Case and point.

THere is a HUGE medical history of 'drugs gone wrong'.

So how does this relate to vet gear?

I am unaware of the clinical trials that they perform on animals. I would not be surprised if they either use mice or very few animals due to economic restraints.

Adverse events in animals occur as well, however, not as widely publised and it is not something that concerns people as much.

Most of you will not tell your doctor you are taking performance enhancing substances due to the current 'steroid witch hunt' in the USA, so adverse events will rarely be published in any of the medical journals.

You do not have the same physiology and metabolism of a horse or a cow, or chickens..................................

I would highly recommend getting pharmaceutical grade steroids if you are going to do them.

x
x
x

T
 
tatyana_zadorozny said:
I actually didn't realise that a lot of you are taking vet gear until recently.

Personally, I think this is bonkers, having done quite a bit of reading on what the pharmaceutical companies do with drugs that are for human consumption.

Drug development costs a lot of money. So there is a huge economic incentive after investing so much money getting the drug into use.

There is a huge issue with clinical trials. The pharmaceutical companies often run quite short trials, and the sides of a lot of drugs occur after taking the substance for a longer period with the drug, or from drug-drug interactions, or when discontinuing the drugs.

So how is it discovered that a drug is dodgy?

It is people who experience side effects who TELL THEIR DOCTOR who then submit a special form to the drug governing body (depends on the country), and it is further investigated.

The other BIG issue is that pharmaceutical companies DO NOT have to publish any of the adverse events that occur with people during clinical trials.

In fact, a lot of them take people out of studies where they show adverse events.

Also, a lot of the people that are used to investigate drugs are young men, so the effect the drug may have on women, children or teenagers is really, often unknown.

I am sure some of you have heard some of the problems that have arisen from anti-depressants. Case and point.

THere is a HUGE medical history of 'drugs gone wrong'.

So how does this relate to vet gear?

I am unaware of the clinical trials that they perform on animals. I would not be surprised if they either use mice or very few animals due to economic restraints.

Adverse events in animals occur as well, however, not as widely publised and it is not something that concerns people as much.

Most of you will not tell your doctor you are taking performance enhancing substances due to the current 'steroid witch hunt' in the USA, so adverse events will rarely be published in any of the medical journals.

You do not have the same physiology and metabolism of a horse or a cow, or chickens..................................

I would highly recommend getting pharmaceutical grade steroids if you are going to do them.

x
x
x

T

Actually i think this is more an argument why not to use drugs at all than why to stick to pharm grade. If we can't trust the pharmaceutical companies (and i agree we can't the greedy moneygrubbin' bastards) what difference does dodgy clinical trials make? I can see the point of the system in place for reporting back adverse effects being different but this is where i think the anecdotal evidence of users in the community is relevant. I agree this is not the same but its better than nothing. Besides a drug like tren was originally developed for human use in the form of parabolan. While pharm grade tren isnt avaliable today i've personally never encountered anything that'd come close to duplicating the effect of this drug.
 
needtogetaas said:
there are however some Deca die hards out there..we are the few who react way deferent
to the compound then every one else dos
...


<-----Is waving his hand up high. ;-)

Whiskey
 
rambleon said:
Actually i think this is more an argument why not to use drugs at all than why to stick to pharm grade. If we can't trust the pharmaceutical companies (and i agree we can't the greedy moneygrubbin' bastards) what difference does dodgy clinical trials make? I can see the point of the system in place for reporting back adverse effects being different but this is where i think the anecdotal evidence of users in the community is relevant. I agree this is not the same but its better than nothing. Besides a drug like trenbolone was originally developed for human use in the form of parabolan. While pharm grade trenbolone isnt avaliable today i've personally never encountered anything that'd come close to duplicating the effect of this drug.


There still are more quality controls for human grade than animal grade, for example pyrogenicity (or 'fever causing'), higher levels of sterility, stability..................
 
One more time -- I never said vet gear didn't work or that people didn't like it.

Please don't confuse what's being said with a seperate issue.

As for Tatyana's remarks, I can sum them up like this; if a cow gets sick, what's he gonna say? Moo?
 
Nelson Montana said:
One more time -- I never said vet gear didn't work or that people didn't like it.

Please don't confuse what's being said with a seperate issue.

As for Tatyana's remarks, I can sum them up like this; if a cow gets sick, what's he gonna say? Moo?

literally thousands upon thousands of people have used vet grade gear and I would estimate only a minority of them had side effects such as test flu or all of those people wouldn't continue to use it.think of all the thousands upon thousands of people that have used vet grade equipoise,yet look how popular that drug actually is.I've used vet grade gear many,many times with absolutely no sides to speak of otherwise I wouldn't use it at all.Tatyana makes some great points and sorry nelson,but I have to disagree with you on this one.......if people got sick they can and would do more than just moo,they would let it be known.
 
Nelson Montana said:
One more time -- I never said vet gear didn't work or that people didn't like it.

Please don't confuse what's being said with a seperate issue.

As for Tatyana's remarks, I can sum them up like this; if a cow gets sick, what's he gonna say? Moo?

LOL, I just about fell on the floor with that one.

I am just advocating caution.

If someone told you they wanted to get in more quality protein but they didn't have enough money, would you tell them to eat cat or dog food?

There are drugs people take that are designed for animals, I think one is called ketamine :)
 
hyp1 said:
literally thousands upon thousands of people have used vet grade gear and I would estimate only a minority of them had side effects such as test flu or all of those people wouldn't continue to use it.think of all the thousands upon thousands of people that have used vet grade equipoise,yet look how popular that drug actually is.I've used vet grade gear many,many times with absolutely no sides to speak of otherwise I wouldn't use it at all.Tatyana makes some great points and sorry nelson,but I have to disagree with you on this one.......if people got sick they can and would do more than just moo,they would let it be known.

Well from a lot of the posts I have been reading, quite a few of the lads come down with some pretty dodgy sides, like high BP, prolactinaemia, septicaemia, and they DON"T tell their clinician they are using.
 
hyp1 said:
literally thousands upon thousands of people have used vet grade gear and I would estimate only a minority of them had side effects such as test flu or all of those people wouldn't continue to use it.think of all the thousands upon thousands of people that have used vet grade equipoise,yet look how popular that drug actually is.I've used vet grade gear many,many times with absolutely no sides to speak of otherwise I wouldn't use it at all.Tatyana makes some great points and sorry nelson,but I have to disagree with you on this one.......if people got sick they can and would do more than just moo,they would let it be known.

I really don't want to argue with you bro, because we're talking about two different things. Saying that people like something is not an answer. There are lots of people who like heroin. (Please don't suggest I'm comparing vet gear to heroin-- it's an analogy).

And my point about the cow was that no person can sue a vet lab if they get sick because IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. So there you go bro.

I can't deny that you like it and you can't deny they aren't meant for human consumption. The decisions made thereafter are a personal choice.

I gave my opinion and it's based on safety. There are lots of people who smoke a pack of cigeraettes a day and live to be 85. That doesn't mean I'd recommened smoking a pack of cigerettes a day. That's all I'm sayin.'
 
errn247 said:
Dude you have 8 posts. You havent been around long enough to bump cups with anyone here yet.

If you only knew knucklehead. If you only knew!! You are far more of a newbie to these boards than I ever have been! Just February! PFFFFFfffft


NEEDTO
Of all people I would have thought you figured out who I was already. Want a hint? Here you go I was accused of using this (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) a lot! Love the exclamation point! Or how about this.
 
Last edited:
Nelson Montana said:
.


#10: Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - :

Said it beofe, I'll say it again -- this is the poster child for disaterous steroids. There's talk of it being elliminated completely from the legit market. If you love it, use it. But a bloating compond that causes impotence is the worst of both worlds.

I don't get it. Here you say bloating is one of the reasons to stay away from Dec.a, but in this thread, http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dont-fear-bloating-564811.html , you are telling people not to worry about bloating.

I've never tried dec.a, but I wanted to try it on my next cycle because it is a favorite of SO many people. If so many people favor it, it can't be all that bad.

And regarding saying 97% of people shouldn't need to worry about gyno. How can you make this statement when 40-60% of ALL men have some degree of gyno naturally. I learned of this stat while researching gyno surgery. If this many men are prone to natural gyno, I'm sure gear induced gyno would be at least as prevalent.
 
Nelson Montana said:
And my point about the cow was that no person can sue a vet lab if they get sick because IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. So there you go bro.


Maybe not, but a farmer could sue a vet lab if he lost a cow or a horse from unsterile gear.
 
bottleneckblooz said:
I don't get it. Here you say bloating is one of the reasons to stay away from Dec.a, but in this thread, http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dont-fear-bloating-564811.html , you are telling people not to worry about bloating.
..................................................................

GOOD POINT. FOR ONE THING ESTRO BLOATING IS DIFFERENT FOR PROG BLOATING. AND SURE, IT ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD. BUT DECCA IS SUPRESSIVE AND KILLS LIBIDO. ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?


AND AS FAR AS A FARMER SUING A VET LAB -- YEAH, I'D LIKE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN.


.......................................................


And regarding saying 97% of people shouldn't need to worry about gyno. How can you make this statement when 40-60% of ALL men have some degree of gyno naturally. I learned of this stat while researching gyno surgery. If this many men are prone to natural gyno, I'm sure gear induced gyno would be at least as prevalent.

.....................................................

ANOTHER SEPERATE ISSUE. LOOK AT THE GUYS FROM THE 60'S BRO. ALL THEY TOOK WAS DBALL AND NOBODY HAD GYNO! IT'S ABOUT DOSAGES. AND COMPOUNDS. TAKING AN ANTI E WITH A STACK THAT HARDLY AROMATIZES IS KINDA POINTLESS, DON'T YOU THINK?

................................................

..
 
Nelson... you are talking about deca's supression, well, We all know the rules you must follow if you're going to use deca... at least 100 mg. more of test, run test for two more weeks, with that you shouldnt have any libido problems during cycle, am I right? well, you'll say adding test to that cycle will supress your natural test producction even more... I have a question about that... Is there anything left to supress after a 400 mg. of test for 10 weeks???? what difference would it make if you get 300 mg. of deca in that cycle??? Of course that deca dick sucks big time, but that should not be an issue if you get test in the cycle... and as for recovery, well the success of the PCT I think It shouldnt have anything to do wether you used deca in the cycle or not.. like I said before, after 10 weeks of 400. mg. of test, there is absolutly nothing left to supress, and that's regardless you add deca or not to the cycle... so recovery would be equally hard with or without deca....Test supress much more than deca, If you do not want to supress your natural test... well then don't use AAS... or at least do not use test... and as far as I know, test is still our base drug to any good cycle... please correct me if I'm wrong...
 
tatyana_zadorozny said:
If someone told you they wanted to get in more quality protein but they didn't have enough money, would you tell them to eat cat or dog food?

Exactly. Meat is meat, right?
 
slat1 said:
If you are getting gynecomastia you are using too much anabolic androgenic steroids.
Its pretty simple.

Not necessarily. There are lots of guys that have gyno that have never taken anabolic androgenic steroids.
 
bottleneckblooz said:
Not necessarily. There are lots of guys that have gynecomastia that have never taken anabolic androgenic steroids.

Again, a completely seperate issue. And it reinforces the point. Gyno is contingent on more than just doing a cycle, so adding it automatically to any cycle is pointless. Use the drug for what it's intended.
 
so many things to reply to

hmmmmmmmmm where to start.......

1.) IMO, Montana you are a shameless promoter (...and I hope you fall on a rusty dildo ass first) ...but thanks for the entertainment

2.) IMO, I think it's poor taste to tell a member they're too new to "bump cups" simply based on their join date ...that's like saying they have no relevent experience or right to contribute just cuz of the date they joined.

3.) IMO, I feel that most problems that arise from the use of DE.CA are a result of:
a.) using traditional DE.CA instead of N.P.P.
b.) running too high of a dose
c.) running it for more than 6 wks
d.) not running WINSTROL with it (or improperly stacking N.P.P. / DE.CA)
e.) not running TE.ST 4-6 wks longer than the N.P.P. (DE.CA) ...I find recovery / P.C.T is much easier with short esters AND when the only thing your coming off of at the end is the TE.ST in your cycle

4.) IMO, TATYANA ...MMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

...that is all
 
bottleneckblooz said:
Not necessarily. There are lots of guys that have gynecomastia that have never taken anabolic androgenic steroids.



The prevalence of gynecomastia varies according to age and definition. During three phases of male life (neonatal, puberty, and aging), breast enlargement can be regarded as a physiological rather than a pathological event. Breast tissue was palpable in more than 90% of 282 newborns with no difference between the sexes. The time in gestation when breast tissue becomes palpable varies greatly. It was found in some infants younger than 32 weeks gestation but was not palpable in 33% of newborns of 36 weeks gestation [7]. In healthy term infants, the diameter of the breast may increase during the first weeks of life, only to decrease later. Complete regression is usual toward the end of the first year of life.

Gynecomastia is a normal occurrence during puberty. Breast tissue larger than 0.5 cm was palpated in 39% of 1,865 boys aged 10 to 16 years [1]. Palpable breast tissue was found among 49% of 377 adolescents aged 10 to 15 years [8]. Gynecomastia prominent enough to be detected in general surveys of sexual development is noted in less than 10% of adolescent boys [9,10].

In boys with pubertal gynecomastia, the glandular tissue is usually less than 4 cm in diameter and resembles the early stages of female breast budding. Pubertal gynecomastia has a peak incidence of nearly 65% at age 14 years. It follows the appearance of male sexual development by at least 6 months [11]. The enlargement of adolescent male breast tissue is often unilateral, asymmetric, and painful. Pubertal gynecomastia disappears spontaneously in approximately 75% of boys within 2 years and in approximately 90% of boys within 3 years [1,8,11]. However, a recent evaluation of 954 healthy young men aged 18 to 26 years has found more than 2 cm breast tissue in 40.5%, raising the possibility of a lower regression rate than previously reported [12].

An uncommon but important variant of pubertal gynecomastia is pubertal macrogynecomastia. This term refers to breast enlargement similar to that of the middle and late stages of normal female breast development. The glandular tissue extends 5 cm or more in diameter [11]. This condition is idiopathic in 75% of the cases, but boys with pubertal macrogynecomastia were found to be taller and heavier than average [13].

Several studies have emphasized that breast enlargement may be detected in high-prevalence (close to 40%) of normal adult men [2,12]. A study of 214 hospitalized adult men revealed that up to 65% of the subjects had palpable gynecomastia (at least 2 cm), with the greatest prevalence found in the group aged 50 to 69 years [3]. In most subjects with gynecomastia, the diameter of the breast tissue was less than 5 cm and breast enlargement was bilateral [2,3,12]. There are no racial differences in the prevalence of gynecomastia [1,10].

It is difficult to estimate the true prevalence of gynecomastia among adults. The distinction between true enlargement of breast tissue and lipomastia is difficult, especially in overweight men. The incidence of gynecomastia of recent onset was less than 10% in three large unselected autopsy series. Gynecomastia was reported to be most common in the young and the elderly [6,14,15]. Unfortunately, no correlation regarding clinically palpable breast tissue in life was provided in these autopsy-based studies.

Pathogenesis and Etiology

Disturbed androgen-to-estrogen ratio has been suggested as the pathogenic mechanism for gynecomastia [16,17]. Pathologic states causing gynecomastia can be divided into conditions of increased estrogen production or decreased androgen formation or action. Drugs and idiopathic causes are responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.


The three physiologic peaks of gynecomastia fit well with the concept of imbalances in the androgen-to-estrogen ratio. Neonatal gynecomastia is attributed to circulating estrogens produced by the maternal-placental-fetal unit acting on the neonatal breast. A significant increase of serum estradiol levels was observed with the onset of gynecomastia in pubertal boys, whereas serum testosterone levels did not change; thus, the testosterone-to-estradiol ratio decreased [26]. Throughout puberty, ratios of androstenedione to estrone (E1) and estradiol (E2) ratios were significantly lower in boys with gynecomastia than in the control group [27]. The free serum testosterone level was significantly lower and the testosterone–estrogen-binding globulin level was significantly higher in boys with gynecomastia in comparison with boys who had no signs of gynecomastia [8]. Local formation of estrogen within the breast may also play a role in the gynecomastia of puberty [28].

Although most older men still have serum testosterone levels within the range considered to be normal for young men, they were found to have a decrease in total serum testosterone, decreased levels of free testosterone, and increase of testosterone-binding globulin. The net result of these changes leads to a decrease in the ratio of androgen to estrogen [29]. Aging is also associated with increased body fat mass and specific aromatase activity in adipose tissue [30,31]. Such changes in elderly men may result in an appearance of gynecomastia in the absence of other diseases.
 
THE GOOD SUN said:
so many things to reply to

hmmmmmmmmm where to start.......

1.) IMO, Montana you are a shameless promoter (...and I hope you fall on a rusty dildo ass first) ...but thanks for the entertainment

2.) IMO, I think it's poor taste to tell a member they're too new to "bump cups" simply based on their join date ...that's like saying they have no relevent experience or right to contribute just cuz of the date they joined.

3.) IMO, I feel that most problems that arise from the use of DE.CA are a result of:
a.) using traditional DE.CA instead of N.P.P.
b.) running too high of a dose
c.) running it for more than 6 wks
d.) not running WINSTROL with it (or improperly stacking N.P.P. / DE.CA)
e.) not running TE.ST 4-6 wks longer than the N.P.P. (DE.CA) ...I find recovery / P.C.T is much easier with short esters AND when the only thing your coming off of at the end is the TE.ST in your cycle

4.) IMO, TATYANA ...MMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

...that is all


hahaha hell yeah

hows the shoulder brotha? ive been gone a while

:beer: dont know if ive been here long enough but cheers
and i love deca
all steroids have sides
thats what 90% of the info on this board deals with
avoiding sides
 
acneman said:
hahaha hell yeah

hows the shoulder brotha? ive been gone a while

:beer: dont know if ive been here long enough but cheers
and i love Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate -
all steroids have sides
thats what 90% of the info on this board deals with
avoiding sides
:beer:
 
i disagree about the nolvadex. this is entirely wrong. i am on my first go around with nolvadex coming off 4th cycle. this is the first time i've did a clomid/nolvadex pct. and i have to say the results are amazing. instead of a big sag in energy and libido, it stayed highly elevated and slowly has come down to a little above normal over 4 weeks. i'm gonna continue for 2 more weeks if i can take it. the clomids making me super emotional loverboy. i'm all sappy with the wife.
 
just_A_Gazin said:
Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - : If you are prone to issues or dont know how to counteract them then yes stay away. If you are smarter than the average beginner anabolic androgenic steroids user, you know your body and how it reacts to this compound then there should be no problem


BS though on the Whey Concentrate's Biological Value (104). Its higher than an egg which is 100. Whey Isolates are through the roof (159)

Theoretically BV's are not supposed to go higher than an egg at 100 but to show how effective Whey is they showin terms of BV rating.
http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Tips/Tips/protein-chart.htm

The rest I am not fond of anyway.

Bridges are a matter of personal opinion. No you will not recover your HPTA but you will give yourself a break from bloat, High blood pressure and screwing up your HDL/LDL levels.
Just curious why you stated that BV's are not supposed to go higher than 100. Good post none the less
 
whey concentrate is only 80% actual protein. it's not bad and certainly better than eating crap. it's just no "super food.'
 
Nelson Montana said:
whey concentrate is only 80% actual protein. it's not bad and certainly better than eating crap. it's just no "super food.'

What's your take on this. Here is the whey I take Nelson:

Our whey protein concentrate is guaranteed to be the freshest and purest protein available. We can honestly make this guarantee because our factory cuts out all middlemen and ships direct to you. Our unflavored whey protein concentrate contains 21 grams of the highest biological value, pure protein per serving with less then 2 grams of carbs and fat. It’s perfect for low-carb dieters and athletes who want to get lean and ripped while packing on muscle.

100% non-denatured whey protein concentrate.
No additives, fillers, or artificial ingredients.
Triple cold filtration process including micro and ultra filtration.
Mixes easily with a spoon - no gritty taste, clumping or residue.
Less then 2 grams of carbs and fat per scoop.
Perfect for Atkins and low-carb dieters.
Manufactured in the USA in a USDA licensed dairy plant.
Mixes with water, juice, milk and is great for cooking pancakes, oatmeal, muffins etc.
New and Improved- Now mixes better than ever.
Lab tested for purity.

Nutritional Facts:
(Serving: 1 scoop, 26 grams)

Calories: 104
Calories from fat: 14
Total fat: 1.5g
Saturated fat: 0.8g
Cholesterol: 39mg
Sodium: 42mg
Total carbs: 2g
Lactose: 1g
Protein: 21g
Phosphorous: 85 mg
Calcium: 119 mg
Magnesium: 17 mg
Potassium: 157 mg
Iron: 0 .3
Riboflavin: 0.3 mg
Vitamin A: 17 IU
Amino Acid Profile:
(per 100 grams of protein)

Alanine: 4,540 mg
Arginine: 2,209 mg
Aspartic Acid: 9,939 mg
Cysteine: 2,331 mg
Glutamic Acid: 11,411 mg
Glutamine: 4,417 mg
Glycine: 1,718 mg
Histidine: 1,840 mg
Isolucine: 5,767 mg
Luecine: 10,184 mg
Lysine: 8,466 mg
Methionine: 1,963 mg
Phenylalanine: 190 mg
Proline: 5,513 mg
Serine: 4,417 mg
Threonine: 6,012 mg
Tryptophan: 1,595 mg
Tyrosine: 2,822 mg
Valine: 5,399 mg
Protein Values:

Biological value (BV):104
PDCAAS: 1.0
Protein Efficiency: 3.6
Net Protein Utilization:92
Protein Digestibility: 95

Alpha-Lactoglobulin: 18,300 15-20%,
Beta-Lactalbumin: 14,000 50%
Immunoglobulins (IgH): ~150,000 10%
Lactoferrin: 77,000 1%
Lactoperoxidase: 77,500 1%
Glycomacropeptides: 8000 15%
Protease-peptone: n/a <1%
Cellular Growth Factor: 5,000-74,000

Ingredients: Whey protein concentrate. Lecithin is used during the manufacturing of this product.
 
good article in men's health this month--the gist is that protein "Isolate" is more pure than "concentrate" and "hydolyzed" is more broken down than Isolate or concentrate, thus absorbed faster (good for whey (for fast absorbtion) and bad for casein (a slow/steady absorbtion rate).

the scam they disclose is that some manuf claim that their protein is a "propietary blend of .... therefore they do not have to list concentrate as first on the list of ingred (think old metrx)

in the end, they rec a blend of whey and casein isolates.
 
Whey concentrates numbers look good but not all of it is actually usable. Alex from protein factory really understands the mechanisms behind this. This is why you can buy concentrate from PF for 5 bucks a pound. It's very cheap.

Hydrolyzed has always been the best but it's inedible. Tastes like ass. They used to put hydrolyzed in amino tabs which is actually a pretty good idea but not very popular anymore.

Super Plasma protein eclipses them all by leasp and bounds. It isn't as sweet and creamy as isolate but it doesn;t have a bad tase -- just bland.
 
eddymerckx said:
good article in men's health this month--the gist is that protein "Isolate" is more pure than "concentrate" and "hydolyzed" is more broken down than Isolate or concentrate, thus absorbed faster (good for whey (for fast absorbtion) and bad for casein (a slow/steady absorbtion rate).

the scam they disclose is that some manuf claim that their protein is a "propietary blend of .... therefore they do not have to list concentrate as first on the list of ingred (think old metrx)

in the end, they rec a blend of whey and casein isolates.

Ok, so I read Men's Health sometimes too.

The last set of 'abdo' exercises had me think 'bring on the chiropracter'.

I have a friend who has been a cover model for them, and did all those little exercise pics in them for a year....................................

He asks me for training and diet advice :D

Ok so whey, in particular whey isolate will spike your insulin, and yes it is digested faster, but that is not always what you want.

Post work out, cool, overnight, no.

Micellar casein and calcium casinate, soya protein, slow the digestion.

Nelson, have you looked into hemp protein powder?

BTW, what does ass taste like?

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