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Alternatives to Clomid??
- Thread starter mike12
- Start date
10001110101
New member
alternatives would be any OTC anti-estrogen.
keep in mind these are not nearly as beneficial as a SERM (e.g. clomid).
in fact most people wouldn't take the time to respond to this because even though its better than nothing its probably only about 25% as effective as a serm.
dermacrine & dermacrine sustain would be two examples of natural anti-estrogens that are sponsored by this board, you can find them at www.primordialperformance.com
keep in mind these are not nearly as beneficial as a SERM (e.g. clomid).
in fact most people wouldn't take the time to respond to this because even though its better than nothing its probably only about 25% as effective as a serm.
dermacrine & dermacrine sustain would be two examples of natural anti-estrogens that are sponsored by this board, you can find them at www.primordialperformance.com
adpeterson33
New member
Dermacrine
adpeterson33 said:
I'd add some PF "POST-CYCLE" to that!
needtogetaas
New member
This guys post is a load of crap. Dermecrine sustain is 50000x better then clomid for pct.10001110101 said:
JohnnyWest
New member
needtogetaas said:
Could I please see the scientific study stating that, after all, it is a bold statement.
JohnnyWest said:
Show a scientific study that equipoise in conjunction with weight training will build muscle. Don't bother. You won;t find one. But it does.
As mentioned, I prefer Hc G, UNLEASHED, Derma, POST CYCLE and adexx. It's the perfect PC T. But if I had to choose between just Clomid or Derma -- I'd choose Derma.
JohnnyWest
New member
Nelson Montana said:
Are you serious, ever heard of apples and oranges?
You won't find a study on equipoisee related to anabolism in humans because it was never tested for human consumption by the FDA. Neither has dermacrine for that matter.
I am simply saying, clomidd is a S-E-R-M designed specificly to be a selective E2 recpetor modulator, by scientists and approved by the fda to be effective, and, in addition, has anecdotally been proven to be highly effective for many lifters for decades now.
Needto - If a S-E-R-M like clomid binds to the estro receptors in the hypothalumus at, say, %98 to %100, how could something bind 50,000x better then that? Moreover, what would be the point?
littleguy said:
Dermacrine is not my product.
And people also have to lose this "Clomid has been proven" cliche'. It has not. It is a drug designed for women. It is experimental in men and is effective only part of the time and other times leads to negative side effects. Enough already.
littleguy said:
Absolutely and that's what I do.
HGH is prescribed to men and it always does what it's supposed to do.
littleguy said:
No need to go back. It was a typo HCG.
I hate Clomid. I'd rather use nothing. Besides, HCG adexx, UNLEASHED, Derma and POST CYCLE has worked ON EVERYONE WHO HAS USED IT. What else needs to be said?
blackpanther
New member
Personally after using it 4 times for PCT, I have had it with Clomid. The side effects are just too over the top. If there are valid alternatives to Clomid that have worked for others, why not give them a shot? I know I will the next time I am on PCT.
JohnnyWest
New member
Nelson Montana said:
Designed with women in mind, but the receptors are basicly the same in the hypothalamus for men. Do you have scientific references to back your comment up about how it is only effective part of the time?
It is true you can get mental sides associated with estrigen, but it works.
imho--if the products advocated on this forum did not work, there would be threads about it---instead there are a few that complain about a rash, or delivery times, but the rest, and there are just too many to be plants or bullsh*t, sing the praises of them.....and no, I am not a compensated spokesperson, nor have I tried them--i am just lucky my wife gives me money for lunch much less buy any supps
needtogetaas
New member
O look the ulter crew showed up to play.lmao you guys kill me. Any way lets go around in circles again if it makes you happy. Should I pull up the 500 threads of people that use the products for pct and love them. I mean you can't get any more "scientific study" then real humans. Unlike other products we know of that use *cough* rats *cough*.
Real cold hard human use facts!!!!!!!!!!!! would you like to see them. O also some test don on humans as well. I could post a few of them to. Give it up and go back to ulter and the rest of the rats.
Real cold hard human use facts!!!!!!!!!!!! would you like to see them. O also some test don on humans as well. I could post a few of them to. Give it up and go back to ulter and the rest of the rats.
Why is the thread turning into a rant?
Who are the Ulter rats?
Please do post up your tests done on humans, this would be wonderful information for all of us.
Thanks and looking forward to the info.
Hey Needto, I have been here since 2001 bro, you know my drill, and I am a straight shooter.
We all need to provide safe and effective suggestions to the posters, as you well know.
Cheers
Who are the Ulter rats?
Please do post up your tests done on humans, this would be wonderful information for all of us.
Thanks and looking forward to the info.
Hey Needto, I have been here since 2001 bro, you know my drill, and I am a straight shooter.
We all need to provide safe and effective suggestions to the posters, as you well know.
Cheers
needtogetaas
New member
I will be sure to post all that I have up for you in the morning bro. It will take me some time to get it all together as I have a lot.littleguy said:
makaveli25
Member
i think dermacrine sustain and all the other products weren't decently well.. i think that they should get some real bloodwork evidence though.. have someone we all trust use the products after a 16 week cycle and test the bloodwork when there done using the otc supplements
IMO Dermacrine Sustain is a great addition to PCT. I am not convinced that I would use it solely. I use Nolva and HCG and have never had any problems but the addition of Dermacrine certainly helped with libido and general overall good feeling while running PCT.
That said I am not against those who run it that way it's just I don't think I could bring myself to do it. We all have to do what works best for us in the long run. That's why a lot of guys still run Clomid, becuase for them it does work.
That said I am not against those who run it that way it's just I don't think I could bring myself to do it. We all have to do what works best for us in the long run. That's why a lot of guys still run Clomid, becuase for them it does work.
JohnnyWest
New member
needtogetaas said:I will be sure to post all that I have up for you in the morning bro. It will take me some time to get it all together as I have a lot.
Placebo is a powerful thing, especially when it comes to 18 year olds. I've also been reading alot of posts about people crashing hard lately.
Iv'e been here over 2 years and always give solid advice; who are you referring to when you say "ulter crew".
was Johnny West really banned? Just for disagreeing with dermacrine being superior to clomid? I mean it's really subjective and people will alwyas have opinions.
As for "scientific studies" on derma?????
Needto, I'm not trying to be a dick, but any doctor or scientist would practically fly into a rage over this. You need to look up what a true scientific study is. These "studies" you have are anecdotal, based on users responses on a steroid board. These are HARDLY "scientific". Scientific studies have a control group. What was your control group? Was it double-blind? What were the blood test results of the placebo group vs. the dermacrine group? Were baselines taken? What was the timeframe period the study was performed over? Derma is a relatively new product after all.
Really, you need to research what goes into a REAL scientific study.
As for "scientific studies" on derma?????
Needto, I'm not trying to be a dick, but any doctor or scientist would practically fly into a rage over this. You need to look up what a true scientific study is. These "studies" you have are anecdotal, based on users responses on a steroid board. These are HARDLY "scientific". Scientific studies have a control group. What was your control group? Was it double-blind? What were the blood test results of the placebo group vs. the dermacrine group? Were baselines taken? What was the timeframe period the study was performed over? Derma is a relatively new product after all.
Really, you need to research what goes into a REAL scientific study.
mookie said:
I can say as a clear fact, I have never done that. I don't have to. I can back up my products.
You must be confusing the current sponsors with the old ones. They did it all the time.
H
hehateme000
Guest
ceo said:
This is a great quote. Very true.
needtogetaas
New member
He was not band for saying any thing against derma. If that was the case more then just one person in this thread would be band. True or not? So think of a different reason guys. Also this thread is still here ain't it? We had the same type of threads a year ago about derma and other products. O look derma is still here, people are still using it with good results. Nothing more needs to be said...mookie said:
You want studies lol. The ingredents in dermacrine and dermacrine sustain have been studied for years. As for the product its self its clear people like it and it works for them. So get over it already. This fighting is solving nothing. At the end of the day. I am still going to tell people to use derma. Lots of people are going to use derma, and lots of people are going to love derma. If the product was nothing but snake oil it would not be doing so well.
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patsfan1379
New member
I wouldn't mind seeing some blood test results of before and after derma use by a trusted long time member who isn't affiliated with a sponsor's products.
Probably the only way we can accurately gauge their claims.
Probably the only way we can accurately gauge their claims.
Pat_McCrotch
New member
Nelson Montana said:
I have used everything but adexx and HCG on my last PCT and recoveered just fine. never lost my sex drive or my strentgh. That is enough for me.
Pat_McCrotch
New member
JohnnyWest said:
Maybe members here andother boards have reported it not working and say I am going to run it again but higher and longer.
I have seen many posts like this.
Pat_McCrotch
New member
JohnnyWest said:
Placebo doesnt work well on the endocrine system.
needtogetaas said:
I'm not saying the products are "snake oil" or that they don't work. By going off what I read on here I would believe they are effective to some degree -EVEN used by themselves without nolva/arim/letro/etc. I personally have no experience with either one, and don't have need for either one right now.
My only arguement was on the "scientific studies". I believe what you have are not scientific studies specific to derma and derma sustain. The individual ingredients? Sure, there have been studies done (let me say that as of this writing, I don't even know what the ingredients are, but I'm sure you could dig up studies). Were those studies done in context to the purposes derma is being promoted and sold for?
Even then, are there really any truly scientific studies done using the derma products? I would guess, no. It takes time and costs a lot of money to do those studies. What's the avg. research budget for a big pharma company? Even when pharma companies come out with a new drug that is very similar and in the same class as another drug (ex. Viagra - Cialis - Levitra), EACH of those drugs have been individually studied scientifically. One doesn't come out with a copycat drug and say, "well, we're going off the data from the other drug's study."
I'm not arguing about the product or it's effectiveness.
I am arguing semantics, possibly (that is, your choice of words in calling anecdotal evidence, "scientific studies").
Please re-read and make clear.
Thank you.
SugarTits said:
But sometimes people recover just fine without any PCT! BAck in the old days we never had PCT and people kept their gains. Not necessarily placebo, just the body doing what it is supposed to do in finding it's homeostasis.
Remarkable things, these bodies we have!
patsfan1379
New member
Actual scientific studies on the effectiveness of a medication or drug for ONE specific use. I.E. Drug X tested for its effectiveness of making bones more dense -- take years to complete.
needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
WOW. I can't believe people here are saying that Dermacrine is better, let along better times a zillion times, than clomi.d.
needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
Nelson Montana said:
Um, hate to break the bad news, it has been tested and proven to raise test levels. In fact, it is often prescribed for men for that purpose.
BTW I agree with ceo 100%. Good posts bro.
The Old Vet said:
Like I said, this is something where it is based on people's opinions. Responses here will be subjective and biased based on people's experiences (mostly). Would you expect different from a steroid board? Even 2 different MD's practicing in the same field will sometimes prefer one drug over another in the same situation based on their experiences (of their patients).
People will react differently (to some degree) to various drugs. Nelson has always been outspoken on his hatred of clomid. It doesn't work well for him or he can't tolerate the sides - whatever the case - so he will always advise everyone against it. I'm not sure what needto's experiences are with clomid, but they are apparently negative, ergo a similar response as Nelson against clomid.
Obviously, they both will advise products that they endorse (no surprise as they are compensated for such when people purchase their products).
but look how many "real" drugs are prescribed off-label based on self report---i think to expect dermacrine to have double blind/etc studies is a little unrealistic considering the total target demographic is pretty narrow--and some may not opt for it, even if it was the best post cycle therapy - available if the cost was a few hundred dollars for a bottle....just my humble opinion
Last edited:
needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
ceo said:
Good points.
Just to add to this, I am not slamming Dermacrine. I will find out what the substances are in it and run them through PubMed and the other med databases I have an pull every article I run across (when I get the chance). They are doing maintenance on the servers on campus until late Dec so I cannot get access to them. I know there are some studies on the bad side effects of DHEA. I'll post them all when I get the chance.
Just another point: Nelson may have bad sides with clomid (or whatever) but his statement that there are no studies on clomid is false. I pulled these from a simple google search.
1. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
2. Int J Impot Res. 2003 Jun;15(3):156-65.
3. Understanding sex biases in immunity: effects of estrogen on the differentiation and function of antigen-presenting cells. Immunol Res. 2005;31(2):91-106.
4. The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men. J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63
5. Optic neuropathy associated with clomiphene citrate therapy. Fertil Steril. 1994 Feb;61(2):390-1
6. Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate. Arch Ophthalmol. 1995 Apr;113(4):482-4
The Old Vet said:
And in some cases lower it, hence experimental. If it raised test so well it'd be prescribed for HRT. It is not.
And BTW, I've speaking out against Clomid for years and recommending instead the ingredients which are in UNLEASHED years before the product was available.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
Thank you to everybody that is participating in this thread. The fact that the products of our sponsors are being weight in against prescription meds, only speaks to their effectiveness. We welcome criticism even when it comes from people who have never used the product. EF was built on educated shoppers.
As you can see, we leave these threads unedited for people to read and make up their own minds. We don't delete threads that disagree with sponsors. We don't bann people for disagreeing with sponsors. At one time this could have happened, but sponsors/Mods responsible for doing those things have been gone for a while now. I think it is time for our members to embrace the change.
That being said.
The next person to claim censorship WILL get banned for real. If you want to accuse us of the deed, I will make it a fact for you and you alone. Please be advised.
As you can see, we leave these threads unedited for people to read and make up their own minds. We don't delete threads that disagree with sponsors. We don't bann people for disagreeing with sponsors. At one time this could have happened, but sponsors/Mods responsible for doing those things have been gone for a while now. I think it is time for our members to embrace the change.
That being said.
The next person to claim censorship WILL get banned for real. If you want to accuse us of the deed, I will make it a fact for you and you alone. Please be advised.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
Nelson Montana said:
I know at least 2 guys who could NOT get their HRT clinics to prescribe Clomid. They would get scripts for Test and Deca from rejuvenation clinics, but they were REFUSED a script for Clomid, the clinic people told them to stay away from Clomid and gave them a script for HCG instead.
Big Rick Rock said:
it's not really on point. but my wife's reproductive endo said she and no one in her clinic would give her clomid for fertility except as an absolute last resort b/c of the sides...should have seen her face when i asked for a script for it
Big Rick Rock
istrator
eddymerckx said:it's not really on point. but my wife's reproductive endo said she and no one in her clinic would give her clomid for fertility except as an absolute last resort b/c of the sides...should have seen her face when i asked for a script for it
Seem like Docs prefer to try other treatments first, before subjecting their patients to Clomid sides. I have heard the same thing from a good friend who is trying to get pregnant now. The drug seems to be really effective at making women ovulate, but I don't think is a Doc's first choice.
Advisor_x said:
actually, after i made the clomid comment the doc kinda figured there was more to the non-pregnancy issue and it may be me that needs drugs not my wife---so i get to give a sample of swimmers......while on sust 250 e/o/d and 500 equipoise...i should have kept my mouth shut--this is going to be a long week
needtogetaas
New member
resveratrol
yes it dos make you blow big com shots and helps recovery
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757
keeps you healthy
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w626021t68218138/
The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology says yes resveratrol has good SERM like effects.
also a good read on res
http://www.resvenox.com/aboutresvenox.html
How about Chrysin
hell even Wikipedia knows body builders use it for starters. Hmm what dos wika say they use it for. hmmm cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysin. Though wika says Chrysin dos not raise test levels it dose clearly say it prevents the body from breaking down testosterone, and it reduces anxiety. It also says there is merit to the claim that it is a libido-increasing supplement.....
yes it raises Virility,erectile function,energy,sexual performance and libido.
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/109662002753723214
Chrysin effects on Testosterone and SHGB
http://ezinearticles.com/?Natural-W...sterone-Bioavailability-in-Athletes&id=178311
http://www.prostate90.com/Male Hormones and Aging LE.htm
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/5/520
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-125834325.html
thats just some of whats in dermacrine sustain. I don't have all day to look up shit but on to the people that love derma now.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...macrine-perfect-winter-supplement-572147.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/question-about-dermacrine-574983.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/i-love-dermacrine-sustain-575848.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...n-pct-post-cycle-therapy-question-556915.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...t-got-my-dermacrine-575550-2.html#post7819804
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/don-t-know-if-s-dermacrine-575325.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/after-dermacrine-sustain-565742.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-565351.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...-just-tried-dermacrine-sustain-563116-10.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/what-do-you-think-dermacrine-554438.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...um/8-weeks-out-feeling-incredible-574195.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...post-cycle-pct-post-cycle-therapy-546961.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...ng-out-new-product-skeptical-zone-562534.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/finally-started-dermacrin-552686.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/noticable-effect-sustain-547572.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-546151.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-562602.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...m/my-results-w-dermacrine-sustain-557022.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...tain-made-my-balls-bigger-i-swear-569772.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/my-dermacrine-experience-541717.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrin-sustain-report-572336.html
lmao thats a whole lot of placebo
Any way one last cherry on the cake. Here is a test done before and 2 weeks after reg dermacrin keep in mind sustain is even better for pct.
Now I got things to do. Have fun running in circles. Dermacrine and dermacrine sustain have and will work for many people. It has less sides and makes you feel better over all. Its clearly working for people and doing a better job then clomid or nolva for some not all. People use it in many different ways. What ever works best for them. The fact remains derma products do what they say they do. At least for almost every one who use them. I for one think you should at least use a product before you bash the hell out of it . When its working for almost every one. It just makes you look bad to start an assault on it. I love you guys have a nice night.
yes it dos make you blow big com shots and helps recovery
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757
keeps you healthy
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w626021t68218138/
The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology says yes resveratrol has good SERM like effects.
also a good read on res
http://www.resvenox.com/aboutresvenox.html
How about Chrysin
hell even Wikipedia knows body builders use it for starters. Hmm what dos wika say they use it for. hmmm cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysin. Though wika says Chrysin dos not raise test levels it dose clearly say it prevents the body from breaking down testosterone, and it reduces anxiety. It also says there is merit to the claim that it is a libido-increasing supplement.....
yes it raises Virility,erectile function,energy,sexual performance and libido.
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/109662002753723214
Chrysin effects on Testosterone and SHGB
http://ezinearticles.com/?Natural-W...sterone-Bioavailability-in-Athletes&id=178311
http://www.prostate90.com/Male Hormones and Aging LE.htm
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/5/520
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-125834325.html
thats just some of whats in dermacrine sustain. I don't have all day to look up shit but on to the people that love derma now.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...macrine-perfect-winter-supplement-572147.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/question-about-dermacrine-574983.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/i-love-dermacrine-sustain-575848.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...n-pct-post-cycle-therapy-question-556915.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...t-got-my-dermacrine-575550-2.html#post7819804
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/don-t-know-if-s-dermacrine-575325.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/after-dermacrine-sustain-565742.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-565351.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...-just-tried-dermacrine-sustain-563116-10.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/what-do-you-think-dermacrine-554438.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...um/8-weeks-out-feeling-incredible-574195.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...post-cycle-pct-post-cycle-therapy-546961.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...ng-out-new-product-skeptical-zone-562534.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/finally-started-dermacrin-552686.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/noticable-effect-sustain-547572.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-546151.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-562602.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...m/my-results-w-dermacrine-sustain-557022.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...tain-made-my-balls-bigger-i-swear-569772.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/my-dermacrine-experience-541717.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrin-sustain-report-572336.html
lmao thats a whole lot of placebo
Any way one last cherry on the cake. Here is a test done before and 2 weeks after reg dermacrin keep in mind sustain is even better for pct.
Now I got things to do. Have fun running in circles. Dermacrine and dermacrine sustain have and will work for many people. It has less sides and makes you feel better over all. Its clearly working for people and doing a better job then clomid or nolva for some not all. People use it in many different ways. What ever works best for them. The fact remains derma products do what they say they do. At least for almost every one who use them. I for one think you should at least use a product before you bash the hell out of it . When its working for almost every one. It just makes you look bad to start an assault on it. I love you guys have a nice night.
needtogetaas
New member
so you don't like clomid!!!blackpanther said:
needtogetaas
New member
So go ahead and pm me for product details and discounts. Hell I will hook all you good bros up nice.
needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
needtogetaas said:resveratrol
yes it dos make you blow big com shots and helps recovery
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757
keeps you healthy
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w626021t68218138/
The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology says yes resveratrol has good SERM like effects.
also a good read on res
http://www.resvenox.com/aboutresvenox.html
How about Chrysin
hell even Wikipedia knows body builders use it for starters. Hmm what dos wika say they use it for. hmmm cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysin. Though wika says Chrysin dos not raise test levels it dose clearly say it prevents the body from breaking down testosterone, and it reduces anxiety. It also says there is merit to the claim that it is a libido-increasing supplement.....
yes it raises Virility,erectile function,energy,sexual performance and libido.
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/109662002753723214
Chrysin effects on Testosterone and SHGB
http://ezinearticles.com/?Natural-W...sterone-Bioavailability-in-Athletes&id=178311
http://www.prostate90.com/Male Hormones and Aging LE.htm
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/5/520
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-125834325.html
thats just some of whats in dermacrine sustain. I don't have all day to look up shit but on to the people that love derma now.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...macrine-perfect-winter-supplement-572147.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/question-about-dermacrine-574983.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/i-love-dermacrine-sustain-575848.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...n-pct-post-cycle-therapy-question-556915.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...t-got-my-dermacrine-575550-2.html#post7819804
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/don-t-know-if-s-dermacrine-575325.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/after-dermacrine-sustain-565742.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-565351.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...-just-tried-dermacrine-sustain-563116-10.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/bodybuilding-supplements/what-do-you-think-dermacrine-554438.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...um/8-weeks-out-feeling-incredible-574195.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...post-cycle-pct-post-cycle-therapy-546961.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...ng-out-new-product-skeptical-zone-562534.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/finally-started-dermacrin-552686.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/noticable-effect-sustain-547572.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-546151.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrine-sustain-562602.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...m/my-results-w-dermacrine-sustain-557022.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...tain-made-my-balls-bigger-i-swear-569772.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/my-dermacrine-experience-541717.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/dermacrin-sustain-report-572336.html
lmao thats a whole lot of placebo
Any way one last cherry on the cake. Here is a test done before and 2 weeks after reg dermacrin keep in mind sustain is even better for pct.
Now I got things to do. Have fun running in circles. Dermacrine and dermacrine sustain have and will work for many people. It has less sides and makes you feel better over all. Its clearly working for people and doing a better job then clomid or nolva for some not all. People use it in many different ways. What ever works best for them. The fact remains derma products do what they say they do. At least for almost every one who use them. I for one think you should at least use a product before you bash the hell out of it . When its working for almost every one. It just makes you look bad to start an assault on it. I love you guys have a nice night.
Good post! That is what we all need to see. Gonna check this stuff out.
Thanks need2.
needtogetaas
New member
Doing a search on the ingredents There is like so many studies and articles its not even funny. They go on for days and days. Hell you could read on the subject for the rest of your life if you wanted to. I will also keep reading as well.The Old Vet said:
Way to much to read in just one sitting.. In any event I have liked and still like what I see. I also like that people are using it with good results. I would like to also see pp chime in as he is pretty knowledgeable on the subject.
makaveli25
Member
needto why dont you get some actualy proof like some bloodtests.. you guys are telling everyone to use your products and trust in them completely.. i think you have some good products but they should not completely replace proven drugs like clomid and nolva.. it wouldn;t be that hard to have a couple bros get some blood work done.. that way we have solid proof
needto, you are a researching madman--k to you 
:
:
First of all, we recommend Dermacrine Sustain for PCT - post cycle therapy - over the original Dermacrine. The original turned out to be some powerful stuff, maybe even too powerful for PCT, so that’s why we made the Sustain. (without the DHEA)
We have done our own in-house blood testing. In fact, the most recent tests results we’ve got from the new Sustain Alpha are so incredible that we assume there is probably some contamination in the samples. So, we have to find new people, get new blood tests scheduled, and take another run at it.
The real problem with testing a product’s effectiveness for PCT (besides time & money) is that there are so many variables that it becomes nearly impossible to test for. In fact, you will not find a single placebo controlled, double blind study on recovery of natural Testosterone immediately following a steroid cycle with any PCT protocol. You will find studies of Nolvadex/Clomid being used for fertility, or hCG being used to boost testosterone, or resveratrol increasing steroidogenesis, ect.. but nothing that directly applies to the average bodybuilder.
The bottoms line is this -- the practice of the “tried and true” P-C-T's are methods extrapolated from thousands of studies, and even more so, direct testaments and anecdotal evidence passed down from the generations of steroid users. So let’s be fair when talking about “proven” protocol... because its been under contant improvement for the last 40 years.
You see a very positive response from customers who use the Dermacrine products. When a totally unaffiliated customers say’s “I used Sustain and it was the best PCT I’ve ever had” I think that counts for something, especially when you have a majority of the customers more than satisfied with the product.
-Pp
We have done our own in-house blood testing. In fact, the most recent tests results we’ve got from the new Sustain Alpha are so incredible that we assume there is probably some contamination in the samples. So, we have to find new people, get new blood tests scheduled, and take another run at it.
The real problem with testing a product’s effectiveness for PCT (besides time & money) is that there are so many variables that it becomes nearly impossible to test for. In fact, you will not find a single placebo controlled, double blind study on recovery of natural Testosterone immediately following a steroid cycle with any PCT protocol. You will find studies of Nolvadex/Clomid being used for fertility, or hCG being used to boost testosterone, or resveratrol increasing steroidogenesis, ect.. but nothing that directly applies to the average bodybuilder.
The bottoms line is this -- the practice of the “tried and true” P-C-T's are methods extrapolated from thousands of studies, and even more so, direct testaments and anecdotal evidence passed down from the generations of steroid users. So let’s be fair when talking about “proven” protocol... because its been under contant improvement for the last 40 years.
You see a very positive response from customers who use the Dermacrine products. When a totally unaffiliated customers say’s “I used Sustain and it was the best PCT I’ve ever had” I think that counts for something, especially when you have a majority of the customers more than satisfied with the product.
-Pp
makaveli25 said:
Both PP and myself ALWAYS encourage people to get blood tests PC T using the supps. I've done them with my products which was part of the research.
Even though people claim Clomid is "proven" there is actually very little evidence of it being very effective. Improvement usually comes weeks after someone would begin recovering anyway. Do more research. Clomid is a last resort drug with little success.
Lots of guys have come on here saying the UNLEASHED/Derma protocol worked for them. With all the evidence, why the hell would anyone choose a drug with nasty side effects over a health promoting supplement is beyond me . Old habits die hard.
needtogetaas
New member
Clomid dos work for people. In no way am I saying it don't. Lots of people use clomid alone. Lots of people use clomid with derma/unleashed, and still lots of people use derma,unleashed,postcycle and other products together or by them selfs for pct. We are all lucky we have so many weapons at are disposal. I think we can all be doing better things with out time then fighting over witch one is the best. I did make a bold statement in saying derma is 5000x better then clomid. As ceo said I let my personal experience and customer feed back do the talking on that one. Derma products are great stuff though thats clear. So are some of the other sponsor products here on ef.
needtogetaas
New member
I do the best I can. Thankseddymerckx said:needto, you are a researching madman--k to you
needtogetaas said:
True, there are those who respond favorably to Clomid and using the supps along with it can only help. There are almost two arguments going on here. Supps can, and at times should, be used in conjunction with other drugs -- just in lower dosages. But the topic was an ALTERNATIVE to Clomid. And in that regard I'd say the answer was easy since so many people do without Clomid anyway.
Good info. I also think the old saying "don't knock it till you try it" might ap-ply here. If you've done as many cycles as me, I'm 42 and been doing this for 15 years, you will know when your body reacts to something. Yeah, back in the day we didn't even do PCT, we worked real hard to keep our gains. Now things are easier (It doesn't make us pussys to do things easier I hope). I tried Derma Sustain my last PCT with my HCG and I did recover faster than usual. I would normally use Clomid. I think the Clomid does work, at least for me, but I get shitty sides. I wouldn't just use Sustain by its self for my advanced cycles. but I will include it now with HCG and/or Novla. Hell we take 3 or 4 steroid compounds to get our desired results. Why not add Derma to our PCT if it works for you.Primordial Performance said:
L
lifthard410
Guest
I was sent here as a troll.
Last edited by a moderator:
needtogetaas
New member
Very true. Keeping it on topic I think we did a nice job letting the people know there is a few great ALTERNATIVES to clomid.Nelson Montana said:
"Yes this is my first post because I was recently banned."
Thanks for your honesty.
Nothing personal, but you do know some other board has been offering free product to people who come over here and start crap with us? So you'll have to excuse me for rolling my eyes when someone pops up a full page of cut-and-paste and says "I'm just trying to get to the truth!!!"
Thanks for your honesty.
Nothing personal, but you do know some other board has been offering free product to people who come over here and start crap with us? So you'll have to excuse me for rolling my eyes when someone pops up a full page of cut-and-paste and says "I'm just trying to get to the truth!!!"
Big Rick Rock
istrator
The Sponsors welcome questions, opinions and full-out skepticism from all of our members. Honest concerns by real members are welcomed.
What will not be tolerated is trolls with an agenda joining the conversation for the sole purpose of discrediting products that compete with their handlers.
What will not be tolerated is trolls with an agenda joining the conversation for the sole purpose of discrediting products that compete with their handlers.
blackpanther
New member
Primordial Performance said:
What exactly are the ingredients of this new Sustain Alpha blend? Does it still contain the chrysin & resveratrol? What additions were made to this new product?
digger said:
REALLY? Wow, that is so lame. They must be scared and desperate. I'll take it as a compliment.
blackpanther said:
The new Sustain Alpha will no longer have the chrysin (we removed it and upped the dose of Benzoflavone and Resveratrol since they are more effective)
We are also adding a proprietary blend of naturally extracted volatile oils which immediately evaporate upon topical application and become naturally drawn up into the nasal cavity. Once these airborne oil molecules dissolve upon the olfactory bulb, they are carried through the nasal mucosa where they reach the hypothalamus and pituitary for direct modulation of hormone production. This is the science behind the medical practices of the ancient civilizations that applied aromatic oils from herbs such as Clary Sage and Sandlewood to heighten a man’s fertility and libido.
We will also be adding Diallyl Disulfide. This is a nice little molecule that increases the lh - leutenizing hormone - pulse and likely synergizes with the above volatiles oils.
-Pp
needtogetaas
New member
nice!!!!Primordial Performance said:
patsfan1379
New member
Blood tests mean everything. Salival hormone tests are bullshit.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
patsfan1379 said:
What do you base that statement on?
patsfan1379 said:
Not bullshit but not as accurate.
When testing all my products we used blood tests, including my own which I have done regularly. It's a great opportunity to see, first hand what something will do. I can't post the results from the test subjects names for legality reasons and obviously a set of numbers is meaningless without names, however I can post my own numbers, and have done so in the past but now all it would show is good numbers since I've been on the supps for years. (I'd have to go off, get tested, go back on and get tested again).
This is why I welcome everyone who is getting pre and post blood tests to state their results after using my products and I'm sure PP will offer the same.
That's a whole lot better than the assclowns who make claims of "University Studies" or other such contrived bullshit. Look at Victor Conte. He made a fortune convincing people that ZMA raised testosterone based on what was essentially fraudulent information. Our boy Pat Arnold claimed that 6OXO raised T levels 253%. According to his own studies. (Which must have been conducted in some alternate universe).
There is so much horseshit going down. Meanwhile, there are products that work very well and after years of being on the market, if they didn't work YOU KNOW the people on these boards would tear them to shreds. Meanwhile, everyone who uses them raves and the only ones with complaints are either those who haven't used them, or those associated with a competitor. That in itself is one of the best endorsements I can think of.
