5x5 variation: Discussion

[nelmsjer]

I am hoping to generate some discussion related to a proposed variation in the 5x5 workout. I have some ideas (based on research and others' workout theories/written programs) regarding the effectiveness of adding a higher volume phase, periodically.

Initially, someone could say, "Why? It works!". I couldn't agree more. I am beginning week 6 of my first run through madcow's version, using the alternate 2-day 3x3 intensity phase. I have been eating like a horse and gained over 10 lbs, going from 185 to 196 on a 5'8" frame...MOST of it good weight. My strength is certainly progressing quickly, and my legs, shoulders, and chest are visibly larger. So, no complaints.

Some may assume that the philosophy behind the higher volume phase is based on the hopes of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. While it can be nice, those really aren't my goals with the higher volume phase. It is my understanding that tendon and ligament strength can increase during higher volume phases. Assuming this is true, it would seem that athletes would be able to endure more successive 5x5 and 3x3 phases without having joint aches/pains.

On the other hand, perhaps the joints are not an issue. It just seems that people are acquiring amazing strength gains, and the extra joint support could become necessary down the road.

So, what is the plan? I'm thinking 3-4 weeks of 7x7 or 6x8, thrown in after every 2 full cycles. This will give some time for tendon- and ligament-specific structural changes, along with a bit of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, for those that are looking for it.

Thoughts?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Could you link the articles that discuss the correlation b/t high volume and collagen synthesis?

BTW I always thought 'high volume' was a realtive4 term - meaning 8x8 3x/week would be cake to an advanced lifter (depending on other variables obviously).

HST principles state that high reps (~15 or whatever # causes lactic acid buildup) can have a conditioning effect on connective tissue.

Either way, it sounds interesting....

 

[Jim Ouini]

I'm thinking 3-4 weeks of 7x7 or 6x8, thrown in after every 2 full cycles. This will give some time for tendon- and ligament-specific structural changes, along with a bit of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, for those that are looking for it.

That's kind of what I did: I ran two DF 5 x 5's back to back, then ran low intensity/high rep for ~6 weeks (I think). I actually did it for conditioning and tendon/ligament health so I was only around 60-70% 1RM.

Then I ran Korte after that.

I don't have the it handy but Madcow mentioned briefly in some other thread something akin to a yearly plan cycling strength stuff and some conditioning work at lower intensities. Bompa also has a similar plan in his book 'Serious Strength'

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Despite the total number of reps being high (i.e., 7x7 = 49), the goal of flushing the muscles with lactate won't be achieved as well as with sets of 15-20, unless you took very short rests. You also would only need 15-30 total reps to accomplish said goal of rejuvenating tendons, ligaments, and connective tissues.

I don't think this sort've thing needs to be planned out, as you're suggesting it. The premise is good, but to say every two cycles is a bit generic. I may be able to go for cycle upon cycle with no actue. Someone older (much older) like blut wump might not be able to go more than half a cycle.

In short, I think it's best to play a situation like this by ear. If you feel any joint pain, do a week or two of 15's with submaximal weights, slowly ramping up to a point where you reach your max, ala HST.

I'm sure there are other ways of going about this (such as doing high repetitions during a cycle, on off days, as a form of active recovry), and I'd be willing to discuss 'em. I just like the way HST does it.

 

[Protobuilder]

I'm pretty sure madcow has said it was OK (and maybe even "a good thing") to run a higher volume program in between 5x5 cycles if you want more hypertrophy. I know of at least one person who's had success running DF 5x5 back-to-back w/ a slightly-modified DFHT program. And I don't know the science, but higher reps (above 15) produce more lactic acid, which I understand helps your connective tissue.

I've got this saved and it might have come from madcow, but maybe not:

An idea on how to run two 5x5 cycles + DFHT + some specialty work:
Mesocycle 1:........................5x5 Loading
Mesocycle 2: Microcycle 1:.....5x5 Deload Week
Mesocycle 2: Microcycles 2-5:.5x5 Intensity Weeks
Microcycle 1 (separate):.........Deloading - 1 week
Mesocycle 3: Microcycles 1-3:.DFHT Loading
Mesocycle 3: Microcycle 4:.......DFHT Deloading
Microcycle 2 (separate):..........Specialty work - 2 weeks
Repeat

 

[nelmsjer]

Thanks for the correction and reminder, guys. I do recall now that it was higher REPS (and not necessarily higher volume) that will lead to the tendon/ligament strengthening. My problem is that I'm sitting here in Iraq trying to remember things I've read 2-3 years ago, specific to this topic. HA!

So, a progressive 3x15 would be more along the lines of the support conditioning that I would be after, rather than a 7x7. 45 total reps per workout, focusing on higher repetitions, rather than overall volume of 48-49 reps.

Now, anthrax invasion, you mentioned something that I am a strong believer in and have been employing in my current regime. I have worked in active recovery days on 2 additional days per week, and I am extremely happy with the results. During the 5x5, I used the M/W/F schedule. On Tuesdays and Saturdays, we would go in and do a short circuit of Roman chair abs and hyperextensions. Then we would go do anything from agility drills to dynamic flexibility to depth jumps to some metabolic-based 2-minute drills. In other words, we just went in for 30-40 minutes and "made stuff up" for active recovery and had a blast. We always left feeling great and refreshed...and very strong and capable for the next lifting day. As long as the calories are kept up, you'll still gain!

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Yeah, 3x15 would work fine. The volume might be a bit steep to be done on your off days. If you were going to do a separate two week cycle for conditioning, that'd be fine. Otherwise, use 2x15 twice a week to get some active recovery. Your form of AR sounds just fine though. As long as you can recover from it and, as you said, keep up the calories, you'll be fine. In fact, the more active you are, the better off in the end. Better nutrient partitioning and the like.

 

[nelmsjer]

Yeah, 3x15 would work fine. The volume might be a bit steep to be done on your off days. If you were going to do a separate two week cycle for conditioning, that'd be fine. Otherwise, use 2x15 twice a week to get some active recovery. Your form of AR sounds just fine though. As long as you can recover from it and, as you said, keep up the calories, you'll be fine. In fact, the more active you are, the better off in the end. Better nutrient partitioning and the like.

Yes, the 3x15 would be for a separate phase, like you mentioned. I don't think my body could handle the 3x15 on active recovery days, unless it was with exceptionally low weights. But, that wouldn't be nearly as fun!

As a matter of fact, something else I have toyed with mentally, but not yet tried in the weight room, is to borrow from the Westside recovery philosophy. One method they have used in the past (again, going from memory...forgive errors) is to go in the following day and only put on 50-60% of the weight they used for their heavy workout. The following day, they put on 50-60% of the smaller weight from the day before. So, for example, 400 on squat (heavy day), 200-240 the next day, 100-120 the next day. Repeat cycle. (NOTE: not my squat numbers...but won't be too far off in the future) I'm sure it's excellent for recovery, but wow...it just seems boring.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

To be honest, I've never heard of WSB doing something like that. It sounds viable enough, but I'd like to have a few days where I'm not in the gym at all.

 

[anotherbutters]

Someone older (much older) like blut wump might not be able to go more than half a cycle.

Ouch!

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Ouch!

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[blut wump]

The just one wheel left on my cycle. It's really more of a barrow.

I like to knock out a quick set of 20 with 135 on bench after finishing my work sets. I can't yet quite do it with close grip. Usually my attention wanders and I lose count. Other than the occasional knee twinge, though, I don't suffer from joint aches like you young whippersnappers.

 

[Khryz]

I like the idea of following 5x5 with DFHT, then repeating.

 

[nelmsjer]

To be honest, I've never heard of WSB doing something like that. It sounds viable enough, but I'd like to have a few days where I'm not in the gym at all.

AI, I found an article here, by Louie Simmons: http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm. Go to the September 2002 article on General Physical Preparedness, and he elaborates a little on it. It's a slightly different concept for sled dragging, but I THOUGHT I had read somewhere else that they formerly did this for weights, too.

Again, I'm not interested in actually doing it with weights because it would get so boring, but you can bet it works.

 

[nelmsjer]

Another question: let's talk weekly volume. In a brief, higher rep phase, how many reps would be wise per week for someone that is natural? During the 5x5 portion, there are 100 reps for squats/deadlifts, 75 for bench/military, and 75 for rows/pullups. If someone used the same MWF setup for a 3x15 mini-cycle, we would be looking at 180 reps for squats/deadlifts, 135 for bench/military, and 135 for rows/pullups.

Would there be issues here? Or would starting off with the similar "easy" weeks and working to new PRs take care of the volume issue?