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5x5 question for MADCOW

c gheller

New member
Im doing the 5x5 routine you wrote about in Meso. It is going very well. The question i have is in the volume phase which i have just completed, i was increasing the weight on the Friday and doing the same weight on Monday and another increase on the following Friday and so on, increasing it week to week so far. I think i may have got this wrong Did I? Am i supposed to increase the weight on the Monday, 20% less on Wed and the same weght as Mon on Fri? And do this week to week. Is this correct? Also when you say you go for records on Week 4-5 is this on the Monday workout and what should the weight increase be like. I was under the impression you were supposed to increase weekly. My weight increases are only a few pounds each week is this ok?
Sorry about the lengthy post...so much to ask. HELP MUCH APPRECIATED.
 
Yeah the lifts, with the exception of the wednesday squat which is based off of your monday 5x5 weight, are increased independently and on a weekly basis. Thinking about the final weeks and using the squat as an example. You have to set a 5x5 record on Monday and a 1x5 record on Friday. What you can use for your best 5x5 is significantly less than your best single set of 5, 1x5 (granted you are pyramiding to maintain total volume of 5x5 but the record is only 1 set vs. the 5x5 which is all sets with a set working weight). This applies to all lifts with a 5x5(3x3) and a 1x5(1x3) pattern and to all weeks.

As far as setting the weights, if a few pounds a week gets you to your record lifts - you either have very light records (like the bar) or you would be burried if you set your weights correctly for the records. For volume I set records in weeks 3/4. The first week is modest, 2nd week is ramped up to get me within range where I can make a jump, and the record week should be that - a record (or bettering most current condition). Try to better it the next week in week 4.
 
Ok so you up the weight week by week. On record days....the 1x5 day which is Friday, right..you up the weight significantly, then return to your 5x5 weight on Monday?
 
You set yourself a new, higher 5x5 weight for the Monday squat. The 5x5 and the 1x5 days are independent of each other and you should be aiming to increase the weight on each every week except week 5 which is the switchover to 3s rather than 5s.
 
Blut Wump said:
You set yourself a new, higher 5x5 weight for the Monday squat. The 5x5 and the 1x5 days are independent of each other and you should be aiming to increase the weight on each every week except week 5 which is the switchover to 3s rather than 5s.
Dead on, thanks.

So records for the loading phase are in weeks 3 and 4 while in the deloading/intensity phase are weeks 8/9. You can scale the weights up any way you want so long as you are attempting to at least equal or ideally better your previous best in each lift on the record days. I tend to start people fairly modest in week 1 unless they're acclimated to the training from a previous cycle. This stuff gets a lot easier after you run it through once. First, you'll know your previous records. Second, you'll have a better idea about your tolerances to loading and your ability to set records in a loading phase. Obviously it would be best if you could reasonably peg all of this upfront and elimintate any inefficiency from the try but the people that can do this, are already training with similar programs and don't need my assistance.

All that said, this program is really effective - you'll still get very solid results by the time you are finished with your first run and ready for another go through, which I highly suggest and you can jump right back into week 1 of 5x5. It would be a pretty shitty program if you had to hit everything 100% to get a good share of the results.
 
Madcow2 said:
Dead on, thanks.

So records for the loading phase are in weeks 3 and 4 while in the deloading/intensity phase are weeks 8/9. You can scale the weights up any way you want so long as you are attempting to at least equal or ideally better your previous best in each lift on the record days. I tend to start people fairly modest in week 1 unless they're acclimated to the training from a previous cycle. This stuff gets a lot easier after you run it through once. First, you'll know your previous records. Second, you'll have a better idea about your tolerances to loading and your ability to set records in a loading phase. Obviously it would be best if you could reasonably peg all of this upfront and elimintate any inefficiency from the try but the people that can do this, are already training with similar programs and don't need my assistance.

All that said, this program is really effective - you'll still get very solid results by the time you are finished with your first run and ready for another go through, which I highly suggest and you can jump right back into week 1 of 5x5. It would be a pretty shitty program if you had to hit everything 100% to get a good share of the results.

Can you point me in the direction of some detailed instructions on how to follow this program. I am interested in it as I have heard a lot of good things but I have never fully understood it.
 
LeanforLife said:
Can you point me in the direction of some detailed instructions on how to follow this program. I am interested in it as I have heard a lot of good things but I have never fully understood it.
Thank God for a platinum membership. If you search my username and this forum you'll get a ton on it.

These threads contain a good amount of info on it and general training theory that applies to it. In a lot of these threads are multiple other links that are pertinent (mainly the reason why I used them). The first one is an example it is compiled for a BBer from the first 2 topics covered in the 2nd link which covers a variety of topics and is excellent reading from one of the finer strength and conditioning coaches in the world.

So give these a read, check out the links therein and that should get you started. Post if you have questions.

http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&#entry69541
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4361413&postcount=4
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364685
 
Mad. What kind of results would you expect to see for a natural trainer. My strength is increasing weekly and my legs seem a tad fuller, so im happy given im only at my first Deloading week (week 5)?
 
Most people have the majority of their gains show up towards the middle of the deloading period as the body is able to recover from the recovery deficit accrued in the volume phase. It depends on a lot of factors and generally people new to this program blow it to some degree in some way because they don't set the weight right - or my posts aren't clear enough and they do the wrong stuff (hopefully I'll throw it on GeoCities or something sooner). Even if you screw some stuff up you'll still get good gains. The second time one does it, I feel is the most productive. On your second go around you know your previous relevant maxes, you've ironed out all the kinks, and you have an idea about your bodies tolerances and how to load it properly. I will say that I don't know of any program that is better than this one at adding muscle although you can equal it - this is one of the program's biggest problems in certain sports. I wish I could give you a number but this stuff just doesn't work like that. Eat, sleep, and train - you'd be a major anomally to not have this program work. I've never heard of a single case where it's happened.
 
Madcow2 said:
Thank God for a platinum membership. If you search my username and this forum you'll get a ton on it.

These threads contain a good amount of info on it and general training theory that applies to it. In a lot of these threads are multiple other links that are pertinent (mainly the reason why I used them). The first one is an example it is compiled for a BBer from the first 2 topics covered in the 2nd link which covers a variety of topics and is excellent reading from one of the finer strength and conditioning coaches in the world.

So give these a read, check out the links therein and that should get you started. Post if you have questions.

http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&#entry69541
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4361413&postcount=4
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364685


Thanks a lot bro
 
Yeah funny you should say that. Im in on wednesday of the delaoding weekand today i feel very full. I hopped on the scales and im 5lbs up. I know its mostly water but why today. Nothing has changed except for the fact that i am deloading. Also bro, when ive finished this training cylcle do you recommend to go straight into the next or take a break?
 
In dual factor theory the stimulus being applied is a series of workouts over a period of time that cause recovery deficit. This is different from the single factor supercompensation workout where you apply a single workout stimulus, recover from it and are stronger/bigger from a single workout. Single factor works for beginners and that's about it experienced lifters have really hard times getting consistent gains. So anyway, the stimulus is applied - the body realizes that there is a consistent scaling need over a period and that it need to adapt to survive. At this point deloading occurs and the body is able to catch up on the recovery which is why you see the majority of the gains in this phase.

Now the big question is why someone would think that the body once reasonably accustomed to training would put on calorically expensive muscle (read: risk of death in famine much higher - note: human body's purpose is survival and procreation first) simply based on a single training session and believe they could string together a series of them catching each one at the point of recovery where they are improved and continually gain like this. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? The body is very reluctant to adapt with muscle unless if feels a sustained and preferably scaling need over a period to which it cannot catch up, if the diet is adequate and the body doesn't fear for survival from food shortage, it will adapt when it can catch back up (i.e. deloading).

This program and dual factor theory are very simple logical stuff - no rocket science. What makes it hard for people to accept is that they are used to BBer mentality workouts and BBers are nearly alone in the world in single factor camp - dual factor is beyond dominant, it is accepted by just about every researcher and strength coach on the planet and has been used for a hell of a long time now. This is basically the way it's done all over the world including the US - Div1, Pro, and Olympic athletes are all trained like this with very very few exceptions - and those exceptions tend to be unremarkable like PSU's strength coach using HIT (he's not to blame for the performance but he certainly isn't helping).

Anyway the nature of that loading in the volume program basically can't be tolerated by the body for long. This is why it's a great stimulus. Meaning that if you kept at this pace you'd be burried and seriously overtrained - and I'm talking about no concentration, falling asleep standing up, and requiring a huge amount of rest to recuperate (think weeks). I did it for an experiment once and really elongated the volume cycle making smaller incremental jumps and avoiding the records. My training partner and I crashed at exactly the same time - it was around week 8 I think we just died. I'm not talking "oh, I think I'm overtrained" - I'm talking about serious debilitation and just complete burn out of the CNS and recuperative capabilities. It took 2 full weeks off before we were decently recovered and probably longer before we were ready to seriously train hard again. And no, we were not rewarded with extra gains. It completely pushed the body beyond its limits and crashed it. It was probably 4 weeks before we began another training cycle. A hell of a good illustration into overtraining and one's limitations - probably valuable to do once but it really screws up your training and general life, very difficult to function and use your brain at normal levels.

Anyway, the 3x3 period with its much lower volume serves the purpose of deloading. You'll be able to go right back into the 5x5 and it will generally be a lot smoother. You'll know your previous maxes precisely, all the kinks will be worked out, you'll have a better idea of your tolerances and the appropriate weekly ramp up weights. I wouldn't make much in the way of changes (subbing incline for military, highpulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, db curls for bb curls - that stuff is fine). Run it 2-3 times through. After that you'll know your body and this methodology really well and you will be able to adapt the framework to accomodate more specialized work.

Interestingly when everyone begins they want to change it all around, towards the end of the volume phase they realize how well it works and how much stonger and more solid they feel, they see the bulk of the gains in the intensity phase and start praising the hell out of it - by the time they run it 2-3 times they tend not to want to change much and anything they do is fairly minor in an effort to keep intact the structure they so badly wanted to break in the beginning.
 
Last edited:
Yeah well im a convert thats for sure. Mad you mentioned the point about you and your partner being overtrained, and about thaht it took 4 weeks for you to get back. Ive had this fuzzy feeling going on on my body for quite some time now where i feel very weak at times, always catching colds, no energy. Ive thought that i might be overtrained so have had a few breaks, the longest being two weeks but after that still felt like SHIT. I thought it may be something medical, but believe me ive been through the medical wringer and they tell me im fit and healthy yet i feel so weak. Do you think i may be overtrained and that i need to take a break for more than 2 weeks. What you described sounds very familiar. My naturopath did tell me a one point that im adrenally fatigued...what do you think Bro?
 
Well, if you're making gains and progressing it's hard to assume overtraining and given there is a deloading phase in the 2nd half of this program that might bring you back if it was but I'm not convinced that's it. As far as the adrenal glands and their specific fatigue - I'm just not knowledgable enough to offer much. I'm assuming you had a specific test done for this and it's not just something the doc threw out in casual conversation as a hypothetical. You might post over at www.mesomorphosis.com. There is a guy named Swale who is a doctor and fairly expert in HRT - he mods the HRT forum there. Given his involvement at a weighttraining site he might have some insight in how your symptoms and adrenal fatigue might relate or perhaps point you in a specific direction. Another option is posting at the olympic lifting forums at GoHeavy: http://www.goheavy.com/forums/olympic/ That forum is stacked with long time coaches - Glenn Pendlay is also a mod there, they might also shed some insight on this or know to whom to refer you. If you could identify the test, relevant values, and the conclusion your doc drew from them that might help a lot.
 
Thank you. I thought i might be overtrained from my previous training habits. Believe me ive tried everything...even seen an endocrinologist. Sounds like a good idea to post on those forums. Any advice is always a great help...as yours has been. Thankyou once again.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhettoStudMuffin

Thanks alot bro. A few last questions for you. Can I run it circuit style? I mean do my warmups circuit style until I'm ready for the top sets and then do a set, rest 3-5 minutes, do another exercise, rest 3-5 minutes, then do the 3rd exercise and repeat?

I like to take my time between sets so I can put my max effort into them. I don't like to rush it and be sopping wet and out of breath the whole time. I ask whether or not I can do it circuit style not because I want to save time or get a cardio workout from it, but so that I can better spread my focus over all 3 exercises, rather than have the most gas for the first and have less and less for the second and then the least for the last. I want them all to get an equal share. I noticed that the way it's setup that maybe this isn't the best way. I mean the monday workout it looks like by the time I'm done with squats i'm gonna be pretty tired by the time I hit bench to do it real justice? Wednesday seems doable circuit style to spread the effort better because they all have the same reps, but again, friday looks not as easy to do it circuit style like monday.

What do you think? What's the best way to do it and how much rest do you take between sets? Should I just treat each exercise as it's own thing? I mean should I warmup, then hit my sets hard, rest abit, then do the same on the next exercise, rest abit, then finsh the last exercise the same way?

Aren't you running out of gas by the last exercise? It just seems that on the monday workout you'll be gassed by the time you hit bench, on wednesday you'll be gassed by the time you hit military and on friday you'll be gassed by the time you hit rows?

These are the last questions I have. I believe I have a solid idea of how it all works except for these last minor details. Thanks again bro. Sorry for nitpicking, but I really like to get all the little details, and I have read those other threads, but they don't answer some of these questions. I know it's lomg, but if you can go through each of my questions I'd appreciate and put it on the 5x5 madcow thread for all to see who might have similar questions. Thanks again amigo.



No curcuit style, that's just not a good way to build muscle (better to break it into 3x per day workouts, 1 for each exercise than do that). Warm up and go through it in the order. You can switch up the order of benches and rows week to week should you choose. On the days where you squat for 5x5 you are only doing a single heavy set of bench and rows - the rest of the sets are a pyramid and should be less taxing.

The weeks outside the record weeks shouldn't be too hard. I set my weights to work through week 1 at a pretty smooth clip. Week 2 gets a bit more taxing and by weeks 3 and 4 there's not much left. Week 5 slashes the volume and feels nice and easy, then it builds to weeks 8/9 in 3x3. The first time you run it start conservatively and don't be truly pushing yourself until week 3. Remember that a giant portion of the stimulus is in the volume and not necessarily pushing your limits on sets (that said you do need to be lifting at max or close to max capacity in the record weeks).

Gasing hasn't been a problem for me and most people. Take the time you need between sets. In the easy weeks I move at a good clip. As I need more rest to make target weights I take it. Don't be lazy but don't let pace compromise your workouts.
 
You can but I'd really encourage you to choose not sub anything in this program. The Wed workout is meant to hit the shoulders more so incline is the usual sub for military if someone wants to be creative (and the military is standing military). Dips are 100% in the other direction. You should really run it as is the first time, I don't know how your strength balances out but you might find yourself overtaxed with the flat bench and dips.
 
Hey madcow2 or anyone that knows.

I'm just starting week 3 of the volume phase and I already know that I'll get my weights and reps because I've done the weight before using a similar rep range (6x4). I'll be setting rep pr's on all my lifts this week, but not weight pr's. Knowing this, when I hit week 4 I'll up the weights 5lbs on all lifts and attempt to get all my reps and sets. These would be totally new weight and rep pr's for me.

I already get this. What I'm not sure about is what if I can't make all the reps on my sets in week 4? Do I extend the volume phase another week and try to get them again or don;t extend another week? If I succeed in getting all my reps in week 5, then I understand what to do. If I'm supposed to try the weigts again in week 5 after possibly missing week 4 and still don't get all the reps again, then what do I do?

Now if I don't get all my reps in week 4, and I'm not supposed to try again in week 5, do I just stay at the week 3 weights as I go into my first deloading week, or stay at the missed weights in week 4 because I'll likely be able to get the reps with those weights using 3x3. If this is the case I understand how to proceed from here.

BUT, how does that affect my next cycle planning? Do I aim to hit my weight and rep goals in week 4 like the previous cycle I missed, or week 3 and if I get them then, try for new weights in week 4?

Pretty small details questions mainly aimed at what to do if you miss weights and how that affects the rest of the cycle as well as the next cycle to come.
 
GhettoStudMuffin said:
Pretty small details questions mainly aimed at what to do if you miss weights and how that affects the rest of the cycle as well as the next cycle to come.

Actually it's a hugely pertinent question especially given that record attempts can result in failure. I wish they allowed editing posts beyond a day or so back.

Anyway - if you fail on a given attempt just keep it the same for the next week. You should never extend the volume phase beyond the 2 record weeks (a novice lifter might start a lot lighter and take 6 weeks to build up but the 2 final weeks are what is really pushing the body so it should not be extended in any case).
 
So I take it from what you're saying is if you miss the weights in week 4, keep the weights the same for week 5 of deloading and go on about your cycle, right?

What about planning the next cycle? Do you aim to hit the weights you missed in week 4 of the previous cycle during week 3 or 4 of the current?

Thanks for the help.
 
1) Keep them the same providing you didn't make some massive anomalous jump or failed miserably.

2) Depends on how achievable it was. Assuming you made a reasonable incremental jump and missed it a bit then it should serve as a good week 3/4 record. If you missed by a mile. Maybe shoot for something more conservative on week 3 to see if you have any chance at all at it for week 4.
 
NOW that's what I wanted to know. I think now I have a 100% grasp of it now.

I'm pretty confident I'll make my weights and reps in week 4, it's just gonna be a HARD week, but that's the point. If I didn't quite get all my reps it most likely would only be a rep here and there. nothing massive. Everything's right on track so far.

That really helps with the what if's.
 
Sounds good - I kind of realized that I hadn't been very clear on the missing with regards to the records. Kind of a brain fart since that's a pretty obvious question.

You sound like you have this fairly well dialed in. My only suggestion for next time would be that you shoot for week 3 being the week that you are decently confident about and week 4 being a stretch above that. It's hard to be that precise your first time through and it's far better to error conservatively than start too high and blow the whole thing but you pegged it really well this time so any improvement next time will bring you pretty much to dead center on the target.
 
Thanks bro.

Ya, next cycle will be dead on for sure as this cycle is already pretty damn close.

A few things I have noticed is I underestimated my 1x5 squat weights being only a 5lbs difference whereas next cycle I think 10lbs will be about right. Only a 5lbs difference between my 5x5 and 1x5 bench, but that's what feels right for me.

I was pretty confident going in as I had done several months of 10x3, 6x4 and 5x5 as well as 6 singles at 90% training and knew my maxes. I took your advice and played the weights pretty conservative. This week is gonna be hard, but doable. Next week (week 4) is gonna be very hard, but I have a good feeling about it.
 
Question for MadCow...

I'm planning to go for this 5X5 training program.... but instead of working 3 days a week... I plan to workout 5 days a week....
Could you please let me know how shall my schedule look like for 5 days and how can I modify the traditional 3 day workout for 5 days...

thanks...
 
DARASINGH said:
Question for MadCow...

I'm planning to go for this 5X5 training program.... but instead of working 3 days a week... I plan to workout 5 days a week....
Could you please let me know how shall my schedule look like for 5 days and how can I modify the traditional 3 day workout for 5 days...

thanks...

This thread is 2 years old, please check the dates before you start asking questions.....

Unfortunately, madcow got tired of explaining why the program should be run AS IS and talking people out of modifying at least until they have run it once. He no longers posts as frequently, I don't think he's posted at all in at least 6 months.
 
DARASINGH said:
Question for MadCow...

I'm planning to go for this 5X5 training program.... but instead of working 3 days a week... I plan to workout 5 days a week....
Could you please let me know how shall my schedule look like for 5 days and how can I modify the traditional 3 day workout for 5 days...

thanks...
If you take the time to read Madcow's site and the lengthy 5x5 thread, you should come to realise how inappropriate your question is.

Questions like this just exemplify how hard it is to leave an informational legacy on a fluid chat board.

Here's a link to Madcow's site, BTW:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
 
That'd be fine so long as your cardio isn't so intense nor so gruelling as to eat into needed recovery from the lifting. Some reasonable amount of cardio can, of course, aid with recovery.
 
Sorry for bumping but I too have some questions about Bill Starr that hopefully someone can answer. I have read the essential parts @ elitemadcows site and these are the questions I feel are still unanswered for me

1. I cannot do hyperextensions because I train at home, are goodmornings a good replacement for this?
2. How about progression on the assistance exercises, is it linear as well?
3. Is it ok to add an extra shoulder exercise like upright row?

Thanks for your time and I apologize if these questions were allready answered somewhere else.
 
Native__ said:
Sorry for bumping but I too have some questions about Bill Starr that hopefully someone can answer. I have read the essential parts @ elitemadcows site and these are the questions I feel are still unanswered for me

1. I cannot do hyperextensions because I train at home, are goodmornings a good replacement for this?
2. How about progression on the assistance exercises, is it linear as well?
3. Is it ok to add an extra shoulder exercise like upright row?

Thanks for your time and I apologize if these questions were allready answered somewhere else.


1. Probably not. GMs are going to be too hard on your back after all the squatting, deadlifting, and rowing you do. You don't need to do the hypers.
2. Not really. It's hard to add weight to something like biceps curls every week. It's important to make sure your abs are getting stronger, though. Do weighted ab exercises for low reps.
3. Upright rows are bad for your shoulders, so you probably shouldn't do them in any kind of program. You can do shoulder presses instead of inclines on the Wednesday workout.
 
You might be able to emulate rev. hypers by using a jumpstretch band around a bench or by going far forwards onto your hands over a Swiss ball or, even, by laying yourself over something such that your legs are hanging freely. As already noted, though, they're optional. Pull-throughs are a possible substitute.

The most important aspect to this program is making progress on the main compound exercises. You should prioritize abs for assistance work but even if you do no ancillary exercises, you'll still make great gains. Don't sweat the small stuff.
 
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