High liver, only 16! uho

[ark94]

So i went to get some blood tests done last week, and I'm only 16. I have been doing creatine for 4 and a half months now. I have been drinking 2L of water a day, and have a great diet. Doing a bulk currently.

So I got a call from the doctor today, and he said my liver was high, except everything else was fine. I told him before the blood test i was taking creatine, and protein, also just a multivitamin. He told me i should get off all the supplements, and vitamins i take and come back in a month for another test.

I do not know the #'s because i forgot to ask, except im going to pick up a paper tomorrow or the day after that give the #'s.

I am thinking just dropping creatine ALL together. Is it becuase i was only having 2L a day of water that my liver was high? I was doing a monohydrate cycle, finished my off 5-8weeks and starting with the 20g a day cycle for a week then go onto maintenance.

Is it okay just to stop all together? The monohydrate doesn't seem to do much for me, in my opinion but not sure. If i took more water will my liver be fine? I am still going to stop the creatine just for a month, but I'm curious as too if i should ever go back onto it.

 

[Captain FT]

So i went to get some blood tests done last week, and I'm only 16. I have been doing creatine for 4 and a half months now. I have been drinking 2L of water a day, and have a great diet. Doing a bulk currently.

So I got a call from the doctor today, and he said my liver was high, except everything else was fine. I told him before the blood test i was taking creatine, and protein, also just a multivitamin. He told me i should get off all the supplements, and vitamins i take and come back in a month for another test.

I do not know the #'s because i forgot to ask, except im going to pick up a paper tomorrow or the day after that give the #'s.

I am thinking just dropping creatine ALL together. Is it becuase i was only having 2L a day of water that my liver was high? I was doing a monohydrate cycle, finished my off 5-8weeks and starting with the 20g a day cycle for a week then go onto maintenance.

Is it okay just to stop all together? The monohydrate doesn't seem to do much for me, in my opinion but not sure. If i took more water will my liver be fine? I am still going to stop the creatine just for a month, but I'm curious as too if i should ever go back onto it.

I wouldn't imagine its the creatine. Do you drink alcohol at all? There could be some other factor involved, but unlikely creatine. At such a young age, I would drop the creatine just to rule it out since it would only be for a month, you'll have plenty of time to lift and grow.

Just appease the doctor for now. After the second test in a month and after no creatine and supplements, I would imagine the results would be the same and there is something else going on.

Post up what you are currently taking and currently eating.

 

[OrbitNutrition.com]

Doubtful its the creatine, follow doctors orders and drop everything and get another test. Like Captain FT said its prob something else.

 

[needtogetaas]

O god wow. Just drop everything for now

 

[ark94]

Well i am actually not taking anything other than, creatine, mutant mass (a weight gainer for bulking), protein iso, and protein casein. And i hardly ever take the weight gainer because i get feel sick after having it.

Here is what i eat:

Wake up
2 Scoops Protein Iso

20-30minutes later
4 whole eggs, 2 slices whole wheat bread, 1 glass of 3.25% milk or 2% milk

Between breakfast and first meal
1.5L of 3.25% (homo) or 2% milk

2hours later
1 Egg sandwhich on wholewheat bread (egg, tuna, or chicken whichever) - Egg sandwhiches usually have, if i eat 2 a day then 6-8eggs in them.

2hours later (technically lunch)
1 Chicken Sandwhich on wholewheat bread (can be egg or tuna)
(its not a lot right now, but thats my appetite)

2 Hours later
2 Scoops of Mutant Mass
1 Tuna Sandwhich on wholewheat bread - 1 can of tuna to be exact
1 Apple

Workout

Right after workout
Apple
2 Scoops Protein Iso
2-4cups of Broccoli
1-2cups of Brown Rice
Any type of meat here (can't say how much, never really weigh it)

Right before bed
2 Scoops of Protein Casein

Throughout the day i have 2L of water, normally 1L at school, 1L during working, and maybe another when i come home.

That doesn't seem like it would give high liver now would it?

 

[joe d]

listen to your doctor. stop all the sups. just eat food. eat more beef and fish for creatine.

 

[ark94]

Alright, do i have to stop the protein powder? I know creatine im stopping, and probably the Mutant Mass. I would just like to keep the Protein Iso and Casein in my plan.

I will post up the #'s here once i get them from the doctor.

and just a note to FT i don't drink.... at all
So thats ruled out. So may it be because of the bulking diet then?

 

[joe d]

yes your diet could do it. huge diets are bad or your health in a lot of ways. im sure your doctor wants you to stop everything including shakes.

 

[ark94]

Huh... well then.

I was suppose to do this bulk for another 8months or more. Close to being through the first month, and i already have high liver lol.
Should i stop the bulk? I really would like to continue on for at minimum 6 months, but i don't want to fuck my liver up for life.. So whats the fine line i can run here?

 

[ark94]

Reason i am asking all this, is because i need some SOLID arguments i can use to argue against with my parents =D hahah They would like me to stop bulking, and i told them that i will find out some information as to why its so high, and that im not going to stop until i pick up the paper from my doctor's office.

So with that said, anything i can use? I would assume that with all the high intake during a bulk, my body will naturally adjust to the intake and my levels shall drop back to normal again? I do not drink any alcohol, pop, juice, or anything for that matter. Just water and milk. So any help on some points i can use?

Thanks.

 

[Captain FT]

Huh... well then.

I was suppose to do this bulk for another 8months or more. Close to being through the first month, and i already have high liver lol.
Should i stop the bulk? I really would like to continue on for at minimum 6 months, but i don't want to fuck my liver up for life.. So whats the fine line i can run here?

Bud, at 16 you have all the right ideas in place for a good foundation. Creatine, whey protein, casein, even the Mutant Mass typically aren't bad for you and from what you posted, your diet (for a 16 year old) looks fine. You shouldn't be having any problems with your liver, but because your doctor saw something that concerns him I would suggest you stop everything, as would all the other good guys here on the board.

We're always willing to help, especially the younger guys that want to learn. You're health should come first. Just stop everything for a month, its not a lot of time, and hopefully you'll be back in action after that.

Another thing that you can learn from this board is not just diet, exercise, and the right supplements to take, but also how to be scientific and solve problems. From your doctors point of view he's thinking "Ok what is he putting in his body that could cause this?" Unfortunately, the supplements we take aren't part of a normal diet, so to rule them out just stop for now. If after a month of no supplements (creatine, protein, whatever) you go back and take the test and still have elevate liver enzymes, or fat count, whatever it is, then your doctor will know to move on to some other factor that could cause your issue.

Hopefully its nothing, but you want to be sure. Once you know, keep us posted and we're happy to help out. Good luck bub.

 

[joe d]

Reason i am asking all this, is because i need some SOLID arguments i can use to argue against with my parents =D hahah They would like me to stop bulking, and i told them that i will find out some information as to why its so high, and that im not going to stop until i pick up the paper from my doctor's office.

So with that said, anything i can use? I would assume that with all the high intake during a bulk, my body will naturally adjust to the intake and my levels shall drop back to normal again? I do not drink any alcohol, pop, juice, or anything for that matter. Just water and milk. So any help on some points i can use?

Thanks.

i side with your parents. over eating is over eating. its not healthy. listen to your parents and your doctor. they care about you.

 

[pbhardbody]

Hey Ark94 let me see if I can give you some information that will enable you to at least ask your doctor some more questions that are pointed and will get you some answers so you dont feel left in the dark about what is going on, or even scared. And that would be a normal feeling btw.

Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a doctor and this is NOT to be considered medical advice.

First - 20 mg of creatine is overkill. 5 mg is plenty for someone who is under about 200 lbs IMO. The rest could be stressing your system. However, creatine is processed by your kidneys, not your liver. One of the levels that may have been tested is your Creatinine. Creatinine is a breakdown product of creatine. A serum creatinine test measures the amount of creatinine in the blood. This test evaluates kidney function. If kidney function is abnormal, creatinine levels will increase in the blood, due to decreased excretion of creatinine in the urine. IMPORTANT: Creatinine levels also vary according to a persons size and muscle mass.

IMO 2 liters of water per day isnt enough. I would double it. This may help to flush your system of some of the creatine build up from taking too much.

Are you taking any beta alanine? Depending on the bloodwork panels that were ran you should have an ALT number, AST number - these are both liver function tests and are indicators of liver disease. ALT is an enzyme involved in the metabolism of the amino acid alanine. If you are taking beta alanine, it could cause your ALT number to be considered "high".

Ask your doctor if he can prescribe a liver cleanse for you. If he doesnt want to, but doesnt say that there is a risk in you taking one, you can get a milder version at your supplement store. Liver Aid can be purchased at most Walmarts.

Also keep in mind that most blood tests have indicators that tell you the normal range based on age, and whether a level is high or low. But if it is dramatic, it will usually also say ALERT by it. Everything is indicated with numbers. So if a level is high you will be able to see how much higher than the range it is. So because a level is slightly high or low does not mean that it isnt something that can be corrected easily.

As Joe D said, alcohol can play a role in liver function. You said you dont drink alcohol so I wont discuss that further.

You asked about your protein powders. Your bloodwork may also have a test called Total Protein. This is a test that measures the total amount of protein in serum (serum is the fluid portion of blood, without fibrinogen). Total protein is a rough measure of serum protein.

Protein measurements can reflect nutritional state, kidney disease, liver disease, and may other conditions. If totatl protein is abnormal, further tests must be performed to identify which protein fraction, and then which specific protein, is abnormal. Serum proteins are grossly separated into albumin and globulins. Meaning total protein equals albumin plus globulin. Those specific tests are generally included on your bloodwork as well.

Make sure that when you get the bloodwork from your doc, you get copies of ALL the panels ran. They may have you sign a release to get it, but either you or your parents should sign it and get the entire paperwork, not just a one page analysis. This will enable you to see a breakdown of everything that was done and what all of your levels are.

IMO you should follow the advice of your doc after talking with him about this. Dont be afraid to ask him pointed questions. He is working for you. Obviously treat him with respect but answering questions is part of what he should do. I wld suggest you take a parent with you. Two people listening to answers is usually better than one.

Also - if you dont feel that he answered your questions with confidence and knowledge, get a second opinion. Go see a specialist.

The most important thing to remember is that you only get one liver. Treat it with respect. I hope this helps.

 

[ark94]

wow pb great read!!! i appreciate that! i was a bit slow to responding because i have been occupied trying to figure stuff out, and work.

I didn't realize i shouldn't be having 20mg of creatine, so i will def. be trying to flush that out by drinking close top 4L of water a day now.

Also im not taking any beta-alanine or any other pills.

I am getting an appointment with my doctor next week, and a dietitian next week also. So hopefully i can get all the answers i need answered next week. I have stopped everything, and revamped my diet completely to something different, but still in a bulk form. I will have post it in here when i get the time, hopefully tomorrow and maybe see if it is fine to help protect my liver.

So just one question i would like verified... no protein powder at all? I haven't had any, but i can't have anything? Not even iso? I never really considered that a supplement, but i stopped it and i guess if i have to, i can go without it for a month. i don't have any left anyways haha so thats why im curious, is if i should even bother buying some.

When i get to the doctors i am going to try and get the full blood test papers, however i am not sure as to what i am going to ask him. still thinking about stuff to ask, but do you have any suggestions? I know its what i want to know, but coming from other people who have gone through a bulk, what things could i ask to bring in perspective? or whatnot.

i appreciate all the help from you all.

 

[d_rson]

Before you completely change everything you are doing, get your blood test results and take them to a rheumatologist. ALT and AST "liver" enzyme levels can be elevated by several other things in your body. A rheumatologist will have more tool available to determine if the elevated values are truly from your liver or possibly your muscles or kidneys. Did they do a GGT? If not, also ask the rheumatologist to do a GGT. Also find what your CPK is.

I'm not a doctor, but I've been through the "elevated liver values" issue too many times, and it was never my liver.

 

[Foxxxy]

Hey Ark94 let me see if I can give you some information that will enable you to at least ask your doctor some more questions that are pointed and will get you some answers so you dont feel left in the dark about what is going on, or even scared. And that would be a normal feeling btw.

Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a doctor and this is NOT to be considered medical advice.

First - 20 mg of creatine is overkill. 5 mg is plenty for someone who is under about 200 lbs IMO. The rest could be stressing your system. However, creatine is processed by your kidneys, not your liver. One of the levels that may have been tested is your Creatinine. Creatinine is a breakdown product of creatine. A serum creatinine test measures the amount of creatinine in the blood. This test evaluates kidney function. If kidney function is abnormal, creatinine levels will increase in the blood, due to decreased excretion of creatinine in the urine. IMPORTANT: Creatinine levels also vary according to a persons size and muscle mass.

IMO 2 liters of water per day isnt enough. I would double it. This may help to flush your system of some of the creatine build up from taking too much.

Are you taking any beta alanine? Depending on the bloodwork panels that were ran you should have an ALT number, AST number - these are both liver function tests and are indicators of liver disease. ALT is an enzyme involved in the metabolism of the amino acid alanine. If you are taking beta alanine, it could cause your ALT number to be considered "high".

Ask your doctor if he can prescribe a liver cleanse for you. If he doesnt want to, but doesnt say that there is a risk in you taking one, you can get a milder version at your supplement store. Liver Aid can be purchased at most Walmarts.

Also keep in mind that most blood tests have indicators that tell you the normal range based on age, and whether a level is high or low. But if it is dramatic, it will usually also say ALERT by it. Everything is indicated with numbers. So if a level is high you will be able to see how much higher than the range it is. So because a level is slightly high or low does not mean that it isnt something that can be corrected easily.

As Joe D said, alcohol can play a role in liver function. You said you dont drink alcohol so I wont discuss that further.

You asked about your protein powders. Your bloodwork may also have a test called Total Protein. This is a test that measures the total amount of protein in serum (serum is the fluid portion of blood, without fibrinogen). Total protein is a rough measure of serum protein.

Protein measurements can reflect nutritional state, kidney disease, liver disease, and may other conditions. If totatl protein is abnormal, further tests must be performed to identify which protein fraction, and then which specific protein, is abnormal. Serum proteins are grossly separated into albumin and globulins. Meaning total protein equals albumin plus globulin. Those specific tests are generally included on your bloodwork as well.

Make sure that when you get the bloodwork from your doc, you get copies of ALL the panels ran. They may have you sign a release to get it, but either you or your parents should sign it and get the entire paperwork, not just a one page analysis. This will enable you to see a breakdown of everything that was done and what all of your levels are.

IMO you should follow the advice of your doc after talking with him about this. Dont be afraid to ask him pointed questions. He is working for you. Obviously treat him with respect but answering questions is part of what he should do. I wld suggest you take a parent with you. Two people listening to answers is usually better than one.

Also - if you dont feel that he answered your questions with confidence and knowledge, get a second opinion. Go see a specialist.

The most important thing to remember is that you only get one liver. Treat it with respect. I hope this helps.

+1 great advice, i sure learned something today.


btw ark94 take joe d's , and everybody Else's advice and just drop everything.

 

[OrbitNutrition.com]

To high of protein can cause higher liver values, once you stop eating so much protein it should go down.

 

[pbhardbody]

To high of protein can cause higher liver values, once you stop eating so much protein it should go down.

Orbit is correct.

You need to figure up your macros and take in the correct amount of protein based on lean muscle weight to get a more accurate intake.

But again - go ahead and stop everything, and then you can establish a baseline to work against when your bloodwork is done again.

As far as questions to ask your doctor -- ask him to go through the different panels of the bloodwork and explain what they mean, what your levels are versus the range, and what you can/should do to correct those.

Nothing wrong with asking him to provide you with more detail than he already has. You need to learn about this in the process of correcting it too.

 

[ark94]

Orbit is correct.

You need to figure up your macros and take in the correct amount of protein based on lean muscle weight to get a more accurate intake.

But again - go ahead and stop everything, and then you can establish a baseline to work against when your bloodwork is done again.

As far as questions to ask your doctor -- ask him to go through the different panels of the bloodwork and explain what they mean, what your levels are versus the range, and what you can/should do to correct those.

Nothing wrong with asking him to provide you with more detail than he already has. You need to learn about this in the process of correcting it too.

Yeah i really want to learn how to do macros. And i have a little bit of an idea, but not definite. I am starting macro tracking hopefully next week, i got a long weekend so im going to learn about it, and find out how to do it. I really have no idea, joe d suggested fitday for recording macros. So i will give that a shot.

 

[pbhardbody]

Yeah i really want to learn how to do macros. And i have a little bit of an idea, but not definite. I am starting macro tracking hopefully next week, i got a long weekend so im going to learn about it, and find out how to do it. I really have no idea, joe d suggested fitday for recording macros. So i will give that a shot.

You probably can find good info here on EF too.

 

[ark94]

Oh
My
God......


So i did my macros for monday, and this is without any protein shakes. Normally i would have had the same meals, except morning i would have my protein shake, then pre-workout weight gainer, and after workout iso. then before bed casein.

I would like to know if you think my diet posted above, if you don't remember here it is.

Here is what i eat:

Wake up
2 Scoops Protein Iso

20-30minutes later
4 whole eggs, 2 slices whole wheat bread, 1 glass of 3.25% milk or 2% milk

Between breakfast and first meal
1.5L of 3.25% (homo) or 2% milk

2hours later
1 Egg sandwhich on wholewheat bread (egg, tuna, or chicken whichever) - Egg sandwhiches usually have, if i eat 2 a day then 6-8eggs in them.

2hours later (technically lunch)
1 Chicken Sandwhich on wholewheat bread (can be egg or tuna)
(its not a lot right now, but thats my appetite)

2 Hours later
2 Scoops of Mutant Mass
1 Tuna Sandwhich on wholewheat bread - 1 can of tuna to be exact
1 Apple

Workout

Right after workout
Apple
2 Scoops Protein Iso
2-4cups of Broccoli
1-2cups of Brown Rice
Any type of meat here (can't say how much, never really weigh it)

Right before bed
2 Scoops of Protein Casein

Throughout the day i have 2L of water, normally 1L at school, 1L during working, and maybe another when i come home.

Now i am having the same as the above, except with no protein shakes and still the 3 sandwhiches. however i am going to have to cut out a lot.

Would you say that, the diet ABOVE is considered a bulking diet? or too much?

Because after my macros have been done, JUST for the foods here's how they roll out.

Cals - 3,591
Fat - 129.7 (its a lot of fats... but its all clean though? ) a lot of it is from my milk, and eggs.
Carbs - 293.4 (is this too much) ???
Protein - 314.0

My weight, 170.5lb.

With protein shakes added ontop. My daily Protein intake was reaching -

438.0

With the weight gainer (protein included in above) my daily calorie intake was reaching -

4,591

At this rate, i would have killed my liver? I thought i was bulking, and that eating that much was right, but it seemed like so little when you guys said you want to eat a shit load... Now that my macros are done, for a good month i was overdosing by almost double of what i was suppose to be in taking.


My revamped diet is like the above, but however i am not having any protein shakes, and cutting out 1 sandwich also cutting down on the amount i eat for dinner.

So thats the reason my liver was high then right? My diet didn't seem like a bulking diet though... guess i was wrong?

 

[ark94]

Just if you want it in percentages of my macros. From fitday it says -

Fat / Carbs / Protein

32% / 32% / 36%​

 

[Captain FT]

Oh
My
God......


So i did my macros for monday, and this is without any protein shakes. Normally i would have had the same meals, except morning i would have my protein shake, then pre-workout weight gainer, and after workout iso. then before bed casein.

I would like to know if you think my diet posted above, if you don't remember here it is.



Now i am having the same as the above, except with no protein shakes and still the 3 sandwhiches. however i am going to have to cut out a lot.

Would you say that, the diet ABOVE is considered a bulking diet? or too much?

Because after my macros have been done, JUST for the foods here's how they roll out.

Cals - 3,591
Fat - 129.7 (its a lot of fats... but its all clean though? ) a lot of it is from my milk, and eggs.
Carbs - 293.4 (is this too much) ???
Protein - 314.0

My weight, 170.5lb.

With protein shakes added ontop. My daily Protein intake was reaching -

438.0

With the weight gainer (protein included in above) my daily calorie intake was reaching -

4,591

At this rate, i would have killed my liver? I thought i was bulking, and that eating that much was right, but it seemed like so little when you guys said you want to eat a shit load... Now that my macros are done, for a good month i was overdosing by almost double of what i was suppose to be in taking.


My revamped diet is like the above, but however i am not having any protein shakes, and cutting out 1 sandwich also cutting down on the amount i eat for dinner.

So thats the reason my liver was high then right? My diet didn't seem like a bulking diet though... guess i was wrong?

I'm going to take your word for it that the numbers are correct. At 170lbs and 16 years old, thats a shitload of calories at 4500 (roughly) for your weight. Lets say you're bodyfat is 10% which would be good, that puts your lean body mass at 153lbs. (10% of 170 = 17 lbs)

So using the Harris-Benedict formula to determine your Basal Metabolic Rate, you do the following:

Height/cm (don't know how tall you are I'm going to use 5'10" which is 177.8cm)
Weight/kg - your weight in kg's is 77
Age 16
Sex - Male

Men BMR = 66+(13.7 X wt in kg)+(5 X ht in cm)-(6.8 X age in years)

Your BMR is 1901.1 calories/day, that is to maintain what you have.

Then to get your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) you pick an activity factor. To prove a point I'm going to use a "Very Active" factor of 1.725 which is hard exercise or sports 6-7 days/wk)

Your BMRx1.725 = 3279.4 calories per day that you need, so considering you might be less active, and you are "bulking" you are doing just fine with FOOD ONLY

Done and done

 

[ark94]

I'm going to take your word for it that the numbers are correct. At 170lbs and 16 years old, thats a shitload of calories at 4500 (roughly) for your weight. Lets say you're bodyfat is 10% which would be good, that puts your lean body mass at 153lbs. (10% of 170 = 17 lbs)

So using the Harris-Benedict formula to determine your Basal Metabolic Rate, you do the following:

Height/cm (don't know how tall you are I'm going to use 5'10" which is 177.8cm)
Weight/kg - your weight in kg's is 77
Age 16
Sex - Male

Men BMR = 66+(13.7 X wt in kg)+(5 X ht in cm)-(6.8 X age in years)

Your BMR is 1901.1 calories/day, that is to maintain what you have.

Then to get your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) you pick an activity factor. To prove a point I'm going to use a "Very Active" factor of 1.725 which is hard exercise or sports 6-7 days/wk)

Your BMRx1.725 = 3279.4 calories per day that you need, so considering you might be less active, and you are "bulking" you are doing just fine with FOOD ONLY

Done and done

Damn man thank you so much! it must be a pain in the ass to figure all this shit out.
But i appreciate it.

Now i thought the numbers were fucked when i put them in. But i double checked and i converted the weights and everything to see if they were right, and well they were.... So its a little fucked.

Would that explain why i have high liver? (i would think so) and does that explain my 17lb increase in the first month?

I have cut down 1 sandwich out of my meals. And i am lowering the amount i eat...

I have a few questions though about eating. I was planning on making a thread in diet but maybe i could get a answer here before i make it.

How many oz. of meat do i want in each meal? Like dinner do i want 8oz.? Also how many vegetable cups do i want in a day?

Because i think i am overrr the amount im suppose to be eating... like not even bulking, just eating like a fuck load.

 

[Captain FT]

Damn man thank you so much! it must be a pain in the ass to figure all this shit out.
But i appreciate it.

Now i thought the numbers were fucked when i put them in. But i double checked and i converted the weights and everything to see if they were right, and well they were.... So its a little fucked.

Would that explain why i have high liver? (i would think so) and does that explain my 17lb increase in the first month?

I have cut down 1 sandwich out of my meals. And i am lowering the amount i eat...

I have a few questions though about eating. I was planning on making a thread in diet but maybe i could get a answer here before i make it.

How many oz. of meat do i want in each meal? Like dinner do i want 8oz.? Also how many vegetable cups do i want in a day?

Because i think i am overrr the amount im suppose to be eating... like not even bulking, just eating like a fuck load.

I think on occasion 8oz would be ok, but I would say typically 4-6oz of meat.

About the liver, I can't say since I'm not an expert, but if you were at 4500 calories for awhile then your doctor has the right idea asking you to stop everything. Stick with food, work with your doctor since he's trying to help you, and if everything checks out ok, slowly add back the protein powder as a post work out drink.

You're still young bro and you are on the right track, nothing happens overnight. We've all been doing this for years and still seem to be chasing the results we are looking for. Keep at it.

 

[OrbitNutrition.com]

Dude you eat almost more than me and i weigh 100lbs more than you and am pretty lean. Like Captain Ft has said tone down you intake big time.