MASS - please give me your advice

[NPC-OHIO]

Hey boys - here's a quickie. I am 32, sitting around 208, 6'2 1/2 and prob. 10%. I am a lifer, right now on a mild 500mg test, 400mg eq, 100mg of winny, hcg, and adex. Then I'm going to go back to HRT for a few weeks (12). Plan is to get back on stage after a 5 year layoff just to prove it to myself that I can.

So, I am in with a natural pro who knows jack about gear, but knows the fundamentals. he's got me on a good 2 on 1 off split, push, pull routine, all heacy 6-8 reps.

He has designed a diet for me, but i am a tad nervouse that it may be too much. i am a CPA so I sit all day and am currently doing no cardio 9alhough I train hard).....so, would you please look this over. I train late, so most of my meals are structured psot as it's fairly hard for me to eat during the day due to clients, office, etc. Plus, I'm 100x more hungry in the pm, so I like the set-up, just wondering if it's too much. Thoughts are great!

PROTEIN FAT CARBS CALS
9am
1/2 cup egg whites, 1 white 15 0 4 90
1 YOLK 7 6 0 85
1 CUP OATS 13 6 54 305
1 scoop BEVERLY 25 4 4 130 60
16 # 62 # 610

1pm
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
2 pcs EZEKIEL 4 4 30 200
VEGGIES 4 1 20 200
49 # 9 # 50 # 611

TRAIN FROM 5-630 (GYM IS 20 MINUTES AWAY THIS INCLUDES DRIVE TIME)SIP ON 3 SCOOPS EXTEND

700
2 SCOOP BEVELY INTL 40 7 8 240
4 RICE CAKES 2 4 48 240 42 # 11 # 56 # 480

8:00
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
7 OZ YAM (BEFORE COOKING) 3 0 55 235 1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540

9:30-2 TBSP Peanut Butter 8 16 7 188
4 PCS EZEKIEL TOAST 12 6 60 400
20 # 22 # 67 # 588

11001 TUB DRY CURD COTTAGE CHEESE 40 - - 400
1 TB PB 4 8 4 94
44 # 8 # 4 # 494

BEDMIDDLE OF NIGHT

PROTEIN COOKIE

46 8 70 # 400 46 # 8 # 70 # 400

289 # 64 300 # 3,135

 

[Chrisco915]

What are the # signs and all the numbers representing......"1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540 "

 

[NPC-OHIO]

What are the # signs and all the numbers representing......"1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540 "

disregard- just spacing.....the numbers are in order as follows:
PROTEIN FAT CARBS then the total CALS
the la tline in each meal is the macros for that meal

 

[cobracock1979]

is that 3,135 cals?

I kinda like this diet, its cool. My advice, follow it loosely,at your point you dont need to be EXACT. However, if its 3,135 cals its probably not enough. Whatsd your BMR? O would gusess its around 3000,I would go for 4000 cals, should stay lean on that

 

[cobracock1979]

ps lose the rice cakes at 7pm - high GI foods not great in the evening.

Replace cottage cheese before bed for casien protein+NPB. Just my 2c

 

[NPC-OHIO]

ps lose the rice cakes at 7pm - high GI foods not great in the evening.

Replace cottage cheese before bed for casien protein+NPB. Just my 2c

actually they are whole grain and it's postworkout.

Cottage cheese over powder anyday of the week - much better source of casein. thanks for the input, nyone else?

 

[cobracock1979]

actually they are whole grain and it's postworkout.

Cottage cheese over powder anyday of the week - much better source of casein. thanks for the input, nyone else?

PWO you need soemthing like waxy maize not whole foods
I suggested casien die to the slow absorption rate

 

[cobracock1979]

And how may cals is this bro?

 

[NPC-OHIO]

PWO you need soemthing like waxy maize not whole foods
I suggested casien die to the slow absorption rate

Actually bro, and I hate to keep putting down your replies, but it appears you have some research to do. many many many pros never take in shakes period. There is no diff. between whole foods vs a liquid carb source and that has been proven recently time and time again. So I do appreciate the comments, but let's let someone else reply. You just keep researching. The waxy, dextro, malto mandatory post workout is flawed, Im not saying it's bad as I know many who do it too, but I feel better and operate better (not too mention look better) with as many whole foods in my diet as possible. I do take a whey mix, that is my one shake for the day

As far as cc, its a far better choice than str8 casein powder. It's much slower in digestion and the pb slows it even more.;

My ? was not a food critique, it was more of a level of is it too much food, too late, but let's leave that up to someone else.

BTW - cals are listed at the bottom.

 

[cobracock1979]

Bro,

with all due respect - I am knowledgable wrt to diet. EVERY pro takes in shakes, as does every bro on here. I dont know a single knowledgable person on EF who doesnt. Look into insulin responses from waxy maize compared to wholefoods. If you dont rate insulin as a valuable anabolic growth tool, stick to wholefoods PWO.

Im not offended, but your assumption that Im clueless from the 2 valid comments I made is pretty flawed.

And I already said - 3100 cals is not enough - at your size thats barely over maintenance. Work out your BMR - adjust your cals depending on your goals.

What are your goals?

 

[C Manson]

Im with cobra...he knows his stuff man.
Im a little heavier than you and at 3100 kcals ed id proberly lose weight nevermind gain.
PWO makes alot more sense to go with shake + waxy/dex with water for qucker digestion...whole food takes alot longer to be broken down.

 

[SouthernLord]

Bro,

with all due respect - I am knowledgable wrt to diet. EVERY pro takes in shakes, as does every bro on here. I dont know a single knowledgable person on EF who doesnt. Look into insulin responses from waxy maize compared to wholefoods. If you dont rate insulin as a valuable anabolic growth tool, stick to wholefoods PWO.

Im not offended, but your assumption that Im clueless from the 2 valid comments I made is pretty flawed.

And I already said - 3100 cals is not enough - at your size thats barely over maintenance. Work out your BMR - adjust your cals depending on your goals.

What are your goals?

I agree with you on whole food vs. shakes PWO. I have done both and recovery and glycogen replenishment are so much better for me with waxy/bcaa/creatine followed by whey iso.

Your total calories are too low btw. Even sitting at a desk all day you should be taking in more food. Especially if you want to gain lbm.

Why the 4-5 hour gap between each of your first three meals? Is there any way to get those meals closer together. If not how about throwing a shake and some nuts or piece of fruit in between one or two of them? Eating every 2-2.5 hours keeps my metabolism jacked up. I am able to maintain a decent BF% while adding LBM with a higher meal frequency. Something to think about

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Thanx for all your comments. All very valid. I do very well sticking
With whole foods. I trained under davies and he slammed us with
Creamy rice in whey whole carb sources.
My theory is whatever works for you. I've stayed under 8% and
Increased my big 3 by close to 300 lbs combined. Just works
Well.


My one concern was too many cals so late at night. That cookie
is all organic but still 70 g of carbs from oars

 

[SouthernLord]

I would avoid eating that cookie if possible. Why not keep a casein rich shake in the frig or eat some more cottage cheese if you wake up hungry?

 

[cobracock1979]

I would avoid doing anything until you have worked out your maintenance cals and decided on how may cals you nees a day, according to goals.

Bodybuiding basics class 101 - go do some reading

 

[joe d]

there is always so much confusion over diet. this thread is funny. it is a fact that real food over supliments is better. most sups come from food or are made to mimmic certain nutrients of real food. it is verry possible and far better to get all of the bennifets of the supliments described here with real food such as beef, sugar and so on. do i do this. most of the time no because it is easier to take sups. if you dont believe me look up the ingredients in your sups that you are taking then search for where they come from. then call any doctor out there and ask them what is a better source for that nutrient.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

I would avoid doing anything until you have worked out your maintenance cals and decided on how may cals you nees a day, according to goals.

Bodybuiding basics class 101 - go do some reading

You're a funny dude. Looks like I got under your skin. i know my maintence yet that still was not my question. It was more of a streamline of the timing of day. I still think you need to get up-to-date with the whole post-workout timing, gi -index, insulin response, and stop believing what you read in mags. FYI - most top not pros do NOT take shakes, period. I've training and brainstormed with two of them, Cutler and Dillette, both believe shake are SUPPLEMENTS, and should not be a part of everyday diet. They just aren't as nutrioicus. Period. Plus, they bloat, the make you look flat, and personally, I am more satisifed with whole foods. I guess that's why I stay under 8%. This isn't what this thread is for. If you want to talk more, I'd be happy to email or pm. Boards don't need flaming right now. Thanks

The cookie, BTW- is prob. more nutricious than any supp. you take including casein. It's 100% orgainc all natural ingredients. Now the 70g of carbs that late may be another issue.

 

[gjohnson5]

What are the # signs and all the numbers representing......"1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540 "

No , it look like its supposed to say 1 tablespoon peanut butter AND THEN protein fats carbs and total calories

 

[gjohnson5]

ps lose the rice cakes at 7pm - high GI foods not great in the evening.

Replace cottage cheese before bed for casien protein+NPB. Just my 2c

I used to preach this stuff too.
From all the studies I've read , there is no association with hi GI foods and body composition.

The above is a myth

 

[cobracock1979]

Actually bro, and I hate to keep putting down your replies, but it appears you have some research to do. many many many pros never take in shakes period. There is no diff. between whole foods vs a liquid carb source and that has been proven recently time and time again. So I do appreciate the comments, but let's let someone else reply. You just keep researching. The waxy, dextro, malto mandatory post workout is flawed, Im not saying it's bad as I know many who do it too, but I feel better and operate better (not too mention look better) with as many whole foods in my diet as possible. I do take a whey mix, that is my one shake for the day

As far as cc, its a far better choice than str8 casein powder. It's much slower in digestion and the pb slows it even more.;

My ? was not a food critique, it was more of a level of is it too much food, too late, but let's leave that up to someone else.

BTW - cals are listed at the bottom.

LOL,

There you go assuming again - like I read that in a mag! Get real and stop being insulting.

Im not flaming bro - if you dont want aggressive respones try gettin your facts straight before youy go accusing knowledgable people of being clueless, thats all. If you want specific answers simply, make your questions specific.

I refer to the above - the question you asked is this "at 208 lbs and 10% BF and 6'2.5, is 3100 cals enough?" The answer is clearly no - if you were at all knowledgable about diet you would know this. You clearly are not.

I dissagree with the PWO thing, but each to their own. Like I said, there is no qustion of the superior insulin response of WM. Just depends how much you value insulin manupilation (insulin being the most powerful anabolic agent on the planet). But I agree in gerneral, eat as much whole foods as possible.

Any way, I said my piece so Ill leave it to other bro's to chime in as you requested.

By the way - I think my avatar should make it clear I know what Im talkin about - just sayin :chomp

 

[gjohnson5]

Reduced Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load Diets Do Not Increase the Effects of Energy Restriction on Weight Loss and Insulin Sensitivity in Obese Men and Women -- Raatz et al. 135 (10): 2387 -- Journal of Nutrition

Weight loss and insulin sensitivity improved with weight reduction similarly in all 3 groups. Although insulin sensitivity differed between the LGI and HF diets at wk 12, none of the groups differed at wk 36. The amount of weight loss predicted by energy restriction was achieved under controlled dietary conditions. However, the reduced glycemic index and glycemic load did not demonstrably enhance weight reduction in obese men and women.

Upon completion of the feeding phase, subjects in the LGI and HF diet groups tended to have a reduction in body fat and maintenance of lean body mass loss. Our results are consistent with those of Boucher and colleagues (15) who demonstrated lower fat mass by densitometry in subjects following a low glycemic index diet. However, at the conclusion of the free-living phase, body composition did not differ among the groups. It is noteworthy that participants successfully maintained weight loss in a free-living environment when provided with intensive education, consistent nutritional support, and regular follow-up.

The results of this dietary trial demonstrate that energy restriction over a 36-wk period promotes weight loss and improves insulin sensitivity in obese individuals, irrespective of dietary substrate. The hypothesis that a low glycemic load diet would enhance weight loss, relative to other diets, was not supported in either study phase. However, the LGI diet did improve insulin sensitivity at 12 wk compared with the HF diet.

 

[cobracock1979]

I used to preach this stuff too.
From all the studies I've read , there is no association with hi GI foods and body composition.

The above is a myth

Yeah, been looking into this as well. Mixing anything with a carb changes the GI. I been drinking powdered oats and realised that the GI is considerably higher because of the formatt.

I have started eating more high GI stuff to see what happens

 

[gjohnson5]

LOL,

There you go assuming again - like I read that in a mag! Get real and stop being insulting.

Im not flaming bro - if you dont want aggressive respones try gettin your facts straight before youy go accusing knowledgable people of being clueless, thats all. If you want specific answers simply, make your questions specific.

I refer to the above - the question you asked is this "at 208 lbs and 10% BF and 6'2.5, is 3100 cals enough?" The answer is clearly no - if you were at all knowledgable about diet you would know this. You clearly are not.

I dissagree with the PWO thing, but each to their own. Like I said, there is no qustion of the superior insulin response of WM. Just depends how much you value insulin manupilation (insulin being the most powerful anabolic agent on the planet). But I agree in gerneral, eat as much whole foods as possible.

Any way, I said my piece so Ill leave it to other bro's to chime in as you requested.

By the way - I think my avatar should make it clear I know what Im talkin about - just sayin :chomp

1. Maintenance calories is one thing. The correct amount of calories to build muscle is something else. A basal metabolic rate calculator will not tell you that. Also since he's on test , increasing them more may be good for him... Maybe not. it depends on the response his body has to the anabolic and his diet. I am in agreement with most everyone that he probably could raise his calories. But I wouldn't make it sound so simple in finding the right amount of calories to build muscle and NOT gain excessive fat.

2.Dude , you've HAVE been reading magazines....
What studies have you seen that actually PROVED that insulin spikes PWO restore glyocgen more effectively OR built more muscle then whole food eaters. From my reading there is no such proof. This is just crap supplement companies will tell you to buy their products. It's a money trap and nothing more.

I'll reread over the thread and hope to answer any real questions he still has

 

[cobracock1979]

1. Maintenance calories is one thing. The correct amount of calories to build muscle is something else. A basal metabolic rate calculator will not tell you that. Also since he's on test , increasing them more may be good for him... Maybe not. it depends on the response his body has to the anabolic and his diet. I am in agreement with most everyone that he probably could raise his calories. But I wouldn't make it sound so simple in finding the right amount of calories to build muscle and NOT gain excessive fat.

Johnson, read the thread. Earlier I state he will need to incread cals DEPENDING ON HIS GOALS. I then asked what his goals were, he didnt respond.

2.Dude , you've HAVE been reading magazines....
What studies have you seen that actually PROVED that insulin spikes PWO restore glyocgen more effectively OR built more muscle then whole food eaters. From my reading there is no such proof. This is just crap supplement companies will tell you to buy their products. It's a money trap and nothing more.

Are you saying whole food is more effective then? Whats your PWO regime? Are you saying everyone using WM is full of sh*t? .

I'll reread over the thread and hope to answer any real questions he still has

I already answered them.

 

[gjohnson5]

I already answered them.

I'm not saying that whole food , wheat , oats PWO is better... I'm just saying there is NO PROOF that the common muscle and fitness responses to training are correct.

There is no evidence that consuming high GI foods will enhance muscle building after a workout. I'm just trying to point out to you that your responses are myth not knowledge

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

This study is the first to compare net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus breakdown) after carbohydrate ingestion with control after exercise. The principal finding was that intake of 100 g of carbohydrates after resistance exercise improved muscle net protein balance. However, this improvement was of questionable physiological significance because the net balance did not reach positive values and the improvement was minor compared with the reported effect of intake of amino acids (7, 20).

The present findings show that intake of carbohydrates alone can improve net protein balance between synthesis and breakdown. Previous studies have provided some evidence that carbohydrate ingestion improves protein metabolism when taken alone. Rennie et al. (18) showed improved leucine balance during carbohydrate-supplemented endurance exercise, and Roy et al. (19) found a trend toward higher FSR in response to carbohydrate ingestion after unilateral knee extension. They also observed a decreased excretion of urinary 3-methylhistidine, suggesting a suppression of muscle protein breakdown. However, there was no determination of net muscle protein balance.

In our study, the gradual improvement in net muscle protein balance after carbohydrate intake was due principally to a progressive reduction in breakdown. However, the improvement was small compared with previous findings after intake of amino acids or amino acids + carbohydrates (7, 11, 17, 20, 21). In fact, the balance between synthesis and breakdown did not reach positive values during the 3 h after drink (Fig. 4). The modest effect of carbohydrates alone on net balance supports the findings that intake of 6 g of EAA appeared to stimulate net protein balance as effectively as when 6 g of EAA was given together with 35 g of carbohydrates (7, 17). The response to amino acids is not only greater than the response to carbohydrates, but the onset is also more rapid. The delayed onset of response to carbohydrate intake occurs despite the rapid increases in both arterial plasma glucose and insulin concentrations after intake of the carbohydrates (Fig. 2). Thus it may be that insulin causes a delayed effect on protein metabolism.

The apparently delayed action of insulin on net muscle protein anabolism, as opposed to the rapid effect of amino acids, suggests that delayed intake of amino acids relative to carbohydrates could amplify the potential interactive effect. With this approach, amino acids would be taken up at the peak of insulin action on muscle. With such a staggered approach, a physiologically significant effect of carbohydrate intake after exercise might be evident. However, when given alone or at the same time as free EAA, carbohydrates seem to have little effect on net muscle protein synthesis.

There was no effect of the ingested carbohydrates on protein synthesis in the present study. Similarly, Miller et al. (11) did not find any effect of a smaller dose of carbohydrates (2 x 35 g) postexercise, generating a lower increase in plasma glucose and insulin concentrations compared with the present study, on the disappearance of phenylalanine from plasma into leg muscle. Whereas there is little doubt that insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro (24), some controversy exists regarding the effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis in vivo. Several experiments in animals have supported the notion that insulin stimulates protein synthesis (8, 12, 13). A review of experiments in humans (25) shows that the effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis is closely related to the concurrent amino acid delivery. When amino acid delivery to muscle is maintained or increased by either infusion or ingestion of amino acids, insulin has been shown to have a positive effect on protein synthesis, whereas little or no effect of insulin on synthesis has been found when there is a simultaneous decrease in amino acid delivery. In the present study, a modest drop in amino acid concentration was observed after carbohydrate intake (Fig. 3), but there was no difference between the two groups in the inflow of amino acids (delivery) to the leg, because blood flow was slightly (but statistically no significantly) higher in CHO. However, muscle intracellular amino acid concentration was lower after drink, thereby limiting the potential response of protein synthesis to the increase in insulin concentration (24).

 

[cobracock1979]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition? I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.


Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition? I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.


Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

Bro - sorry, but it's true, the insulin spike is so overrated and so outdated it's ridiculous. I'm living proof. I recover just as fast and I'm so much leaner now than I ever have been. The only change was I nix the sugar (dex, malt, etc.) Hell, I even tried smarties, I've tried em all....I'm proof babe. I'll never go back.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Hey boys - here's a quickie. I am 32, sitting around 208, 6'2 1/2 and prob. 10%. I am a lifer, right now on a mild 500mg test, 400mg eq, 100mg of winny, hcg, and adex. Then I'm going to go back to HRT for a few weeks (12). Plan is to get back on stage after a 5 year layoff just to prove it to myself that I can.

So, I am in with a natural pro who knows jack about gear, but knows the fundamentals. he's got me on a good 2 on 1 off split, push, pull routine, all heacy 6-8 reps.

He has designed a diet for me, but i am a tad nervouse that it may be too much. i am a CPA so I sit all day and am currently doing no cardio 9alhough I train hard).....so, would you please look this over. I train late, so most of my meals are structured psot as it's fairly hard for me to qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqeat during the day due to clients, office, etc. Plus, I'm 100x more hungry in the pm, so I like the set-up, just wondering if it's too much. Thoughts are great!

PROTEIN FAT CARBS CALS
9am
1/2 cup egg whites, 1 white 15 0 4 90
1 YOLK 7 6 0 85
1 CUP OATS 13 6 54 305
1 scoop BEVERLY 25 4 4 130 60
16 # 62 # 610

1pm
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
2 pcs EZEKIEL 4 4 30 200
VEGGIES 4 1 20 200
49 # 9 # 50 # 611

TRAIN FROM 5-630 (GYM IS 20 MINUTES AWAY THIS INCLUDES DRIVE TIME)SIP ON 3 SCOOPS EXTEND

700
2 SCOOP BEVELY INTL 40 7 8 240
4 RICE CAKES 2 4 48 240 42 # 11 # 56 # 480

8:00
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
7 OZ YAM (BEFORE COOKING) 3 0 55 235 1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540

9:30-2 TBSP Peanut Butter 8 16 7 188
4 PCS EZEKIEL TOAST 12 6 60 400
20 # 22 # 67 # 588

11001 TUB DRY CURD COTTAGE CHEESE 40 - - 400
1 TB PB 4 8 4 94
44 # 8 # 4 # 494

BEDMIDDLE OF NIGHT

PROTEIN COOKIE

46 8 70 # 400 46 # 8 # 70 # 400

289 # 64 300 # 3,135

We've managed to totally get sidetracked.....MY QUESTION IS DO YOU FEEL THE MACROS AND OR CALS ARE TOO MUCH TOO LATE???? THAT IS MY QUESTION.

My maint. is 3100. I want to start lower, so forget the cals at this points. Just the overall cals. His theory is it's ok because I train until 6;30, but I go to bed at 10ish then wake up to eat aand piss....so can I get some assistance there.

 

[gjohnson5]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition?

I guess the better question is what's wrong with it??
As I posted, there is no evidence that the use of high dose high GI carbs induces a protein synthesis response any better then other diet regimes...

I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.

Once again why switch from what he is currently doing if there is no proof whatsoever that what he is currently doing for PWO is bad or wrong???

Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

There are several other studies which say the same thing I just posted. Unfortunately what we believed in 2002,2003 about diet and training is probably wrong. At one point we believe the earth was flat. People just need to learn what is really factual and adjust

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

Then post evidence that your way is better...
Unfortunately too many people read advertisements in magazines and online sites and just assume what the supplement companies are telling them is correct. What you need to understand that alot of this is profit driven. What many of those people are saying has nothing to do with bodybuilding science or testing methodologies at all

 

[NPC-OHIO]

I guess the better question is what's wrong with it??
As I posted, there is no evidence that the use of high dose high GI carbs induces a protein synthesis response any better then other diet regimes...




Once again why switch from what he is currently doing if there is no proof whatsoever that what he is currently doing for PWO is bad or wrong???




There are several other studies which say the same thing I just posted. Unfortunately what we believed in 2002,2003 about diet and training is probably wrong. At one point we believe the earth was flat. People just need to learn what is really factual and adjust



Then post evidence that your way is better...
Unfortunately too many people read advertisements in magazines and online sites and just assume what the supplement companies are telling them is correct. What you need to understand that alot of this is profit driven. What many of those people are saying has nothing to do with bodybuilding science or testing methodologies at all

Karma for your insight, now what about my true question - anythoughts?

 

[cobracock1979]

I guess the better question is what's wrong with it??
As I posted, there is no evidence that the use of high dose high GI carbs induces a protein synthesis response any better then other diet regimes...




Once again why switch from what he is currently doing if there is no proof whatsoever that what he is currently doing for PWO is bad or wrong???




There are several other studies which say the same thing I just posted. Unfortunately what we believed in 2002,2003 about diet and training is probably wrong. At one point we believe the earth was flat. People just need to learn what is really factual and adjust



Then post evidence that your way is better...
Unfortunately too many people read advertisements in magazines and online sites and just assume what the supplement companies are telling them is correct. What you need to understand that alot of this is profit driven. What many of those people are saying has nothing to do with bodybuilding science or testing methodologies at all

LOL,

All ur really sayin is there is no eveidence for ANYTHIN an playin Devils advocate.

OK fine. I know bro's who have done insulin only cycles - I can assure you, that had major effects on the levels of protein synthesis (and fat in excessiv elevels) over very short periods.

I can also tell you since using the WM combo PWO, I have seen great improvements in LBM. Ans I stay lean.

Johnson, unfortunately the world wont stand still because you cannot find decisive studies proving one way or the other.

I thin we all know insulin plays a major part in bodybuilding. I think we also know a lotta the top bro's on here follow a diet similar to my own.

Id be interested to know what your diet looks like - if in fact you dare eat at all

 

[NPC-OHIO]

LOL,

All ur really sayin is there is no eveidence for ANYTHIN an playin Devils advocate.

OK fine. I know bro's who have done insulin only cycles - I can assure you, that had major effects on the levels of protein synthesis (and fat in excessiv elevels) over very short periods.

I can also tell you since using the WM combo PWO, I have seen great improvements in LBM. Ans I stay lean.

Johnson, unfortunately the world wont stand still because you cannot find decisive studies proving one way or the other.

I thin we all know insulin plays a major part in bodybuilding. I think we also know a lotta the top bro's on here follow a diet similar to my own.

Id be interested to know what your diet looks like - if in fact you dare eat at all

You need to grow up my firiend, Fact is many have different principles. Just because someone doesn't agree with your, so what??? Relax, you do what you want, no one is gonna take your Waxy aaxy ......relax. Damn.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Post Workout Shake and Fat Loss

there

http://user210805.websitewizard.com/files/unprotected/AARR-Jan-2008.pdf

 

[gjohnson5]

We've managed to totally get sidetracked.....MY QUESTION IS DO YOU FEEL THE MACROS AND OR CALS ARE TOO MUCH TOO LATE???? THAT IS MY QUESTION.

My maint. is 3100. I want to start lower, so forget the cals at this points. Just the overall cals. His theory is it's ok because I train until 6;30, but I go to bed at 10ish then wake up to eat aand piss.... so can I get some assistance there.

Who ever "His Theory" is referring to, I would say he is correct.
Once again , its about calories and workout time. If you workour later , then eating later should be ok.

High HI foods have no relevance on body composition anyway. It's the calories that will. As long as you are burning calories through activity, the timing shouldn't matter. If you choose to eat around the time of the workout , then that's probably smart. You're 6'2 and weight about as much as I do (I'm 5'9) so I think you can up calories and you'll be fine.
I would say you should do some cardio however since you are 10% and trying to compete

 

[cobracock1979]

You need to grow up my firiend, Fact is many have different principles. Just because someone doesn't agree with your, so what??? Relax, you do what you want, no one is gonna take your Waxy aaxy ......relax. Damn.

LOL,

Im relaxed - just lookin for answers like everyone else. if there's a better alternative you can be damn sure ill be droppin the Waxy like a hot brick..

Johnson is extremely knowledgable on the subject, just not always very helpul in giving the best advice ha can from the knowledge he has accumulated IMO. Hows it on that fence bro?

I think WRT to the diet you posted, those are the macro's for the person who gave you the diet. I would assume he was either cutting or considerably smaller than than you. Common sense would suggest an adjustment

I think your makin a lotta what you say up bro, we shall see...keep talkin

Anyway, Good luck, ill be watchin this thread with interest.

 

[OneBreath]

You're a funny dude. Looks like I got under your skin. i know my maintence yet that still was not my question. It was more of a streamline of the timing of day. I still think you need to get up-to-date with the whole post-workout timing, gi -index, insulin response, and stop believing what you read in mags. FYI - most top not pros do NOT take shakes, period. I've training and brainstormed with two of them, Cutler and Dillette, both believe shake are SUPPLEMENTS, and should not be a part of everyday diet. They just aren't as nutrioicus. Period. Plus, they bloat, the make you look flat, and personally, I am more satisifed with whole foods. I guess that's why I stay under 8%. This isn't what this thread is for. If you want to talk more, I'd be happy to email or pm. Boards don't need flaming right now. Thanks

The cookie, BTW- is prob. more nutricious than any supp. you take including casein. It's 100% orgainc all natural ingredients. Now the 70g of carbs that late may be another issue.

Cobra, please give up, this dude trains and brainstorms with Jay Cutler. He's simply WAY above your social and intellectual status.

Even though he thinks a cookie is more nutriciousiosity and organnious than casein, he's obviously a master of rocket scientry.

 

[cobracock1979]

Cobra, please give up, this dude trains and brainstorms with Jay Cutler. He's simply WAY above your social and intellectual status.

Even though he thinks a cookie is more nutriciousiosity and organnious than casein, he's obviously a master of rocket scientry.

Maybe intellectually above me.. but socially...nah. Im a fuc*in God!

Wonder how much Broccoli he can eat...probably a lot

 

[OneBreath]

Maybe intellectually above me.. but socially...nah. Im a fuc*in God!

Wonder how much Broccoli he can eat...probably a lot

lol, i just fixed my tub of broccoli. 4 cups today. And its organic! Just like my shoes.

 

[cobracock1979]

LOL,

Im gonna eat Broccoli PWO from now on.

Seriously, your brocolli thread has got me obsessed with...well, Brocolli...

 

[OneBreath]

LOL,

Im gonna eat Broccoli PWO from now on.

Seriously, your brocolli thread has got me obsessed with...well, Brocolli...

I swear it helps in keeping fat in check when eating over maintenance. I had to move this weekend and in addition to eating like shit, i didn't have my broccoli. I felt like a bloated mess. Now with just 2 cups down i'm feeling back on track.

 

[gjohnson5]

LOL,

All ur really sayin is there is no eveidence for ANYTHIN an playin Devils advocate.

Define anything?
Does carbs increase protein synthesis PWO... There's no evidence of this
Do you NEED to swallow High GI carbs PWO... There's no evidence of that either....

OK fine. I know bro's who have done insulin only cycles - I can assure you, that had major effects on the levels of protein synthesis (and fat in excessiv elevels) over very short periods.

What does humalog injections have to do with natural insulin secretions through diet?
Absolutely nothing because the active time, half life and levels per ml of blood would be totally different
Not to mention the regulation system is totally different as well

I can also tell you since using the WM combo PWO, I have seen great improvements in LBM. Ans I stay lean.

That's anecdotal. Show evidence on a sample of people that what you say is true...

Johnson, unfortunately the world wont stand still because you cannot find decisive studies proving one way or the other.

The world is already adapting to scientific evidence. It's YOUR problem (yes problem) that you haven't adjusted yet. Not anyone else's

I thin we all know insulin plays a major part in bodybuilding.

Please read above.

I think we also know a lotta the top bro's on here follow a diet similar to my own.

There are many that don't...

Id be interested to know what your diet looks like - if in fact you dare eat at all

Yep I agree with NPC that you need to grow up. Don't blame me that you're still running with around with 8 year old myths. Get educated with new information about diet and training

 

[SouthernLord]

gjohnson-

What does your pre/during/post workout nutrition plan look like? You have some interesting points of view here....

 

[gjohnson5]

Non training day would like something like this

5:00am quick bowl of uncooked whole grain oats, can of tuna
8:00am: 6 whole eggs scrambled w/cheese, 6oz veggies, 12oz lactaid milk
10:00 - 10:30 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery)
Lunch: whole wheat bagel w/peanut butter...Maybe cheap milk egg shake
2:30-3:00 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery) 12oz lactaid milk
5:00pm black eyed peas , bowl chicken salad
7:00pm 6-8oz chicken breast, potato, peas, broccoli
10:00pm brown rice and/or black eyed peas. Maybe EAS Myoplex bar if I want a cheat....

 

[OneBreath]

Non training day would like something like this

5:00am quick bowl of uncooked whole grain oats, can of tuna
8:00am: 6 whole eggs scrambled w/cheese, 6oz veggies, 12oz lactaid milk
10:00 - 10:30 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery)
Lunch: whole wheat bagel w/peanut butter...Maybe cheap milk egg shake
2:30-3:00 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery) 12oz lactaid milk
5:00pm black eyed peas , bowl chicken salad
7:00pm 6-8oz chicken breast, potato, peas, broccoli
10:00pm brown rice and/or black eyed peas. Maybe EAS Myoplex bar if I want a cheat....

Tuna and oats in the same meal, that's hardcore!

Whats the deal with black eyed peas? My mom used to fix these when i was a kid. I haven't had them in years. What are the specific benefits?

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Gus -

You wanna cheat, lose the bar, have one of these cookies...it's far from a cheat but taste better than most bars.

Physique Products

I think they were looking for a training day diet, pre post

 

[NPC-OHIO]

lol, i just fixed my tub of broccoli. 4 cups today. And its organic! Just like my shoes.

Poke on bro....it's all good.

 

[cobracock1979]

Non training day would like something like this

5:00am quick bowl of uncooked whole grain oats, can of tuna
8:00am: 6 whole eggs scrambled w/cheese, 6oz veggies, 12oz lactaid milk
10:00 - 10:30 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery)
Lunch: whole wheat bagel w/peanut butter...Maybe cheap milk egg shake
2:30-3:00 handful home made trail mix (almonds , walnuts , pecans , cashews , peanuts and raisins out of the baking section of the grocery) 12oz lactaid milk
5:00pm black eyed peas , bowl chicken salad
7:00pm 6-8oz chicken breast, potato, peas, broccoli
10:00pm brown rice and/or black eyed peas. Maybe EAS Myoplex bar if I want a cheat....

LOL,

Again, Im more than happy to listen to updated ideas.

So you dont use any form of shake? How about on a traing day? Whats your PWO meal?

 

[gjohnson5]

Tuna and oats in the same meal, that's hardcore!

Whats the deal with black eyed peas? My mom used to fix these when i was a kid. I haven't had them in years. What are the specific benefits?

I eat lots of vegetables.
I may get fruit twice a week , so I didn't list it

But yeah I eat lots of corn , peas , broccoli, green beans, cabbage, lima beans, kidney beans , greens, bell pepper, celery, onions, blue corn meal ,brussel sprouts, bean sprouts etc

The black eyed peas is a southern thing we do down south here. It's cheap

 

[gjohnson5]

LOL,

Again, Im more than happy to listen to updated ideas.

So you dont use any form of shake? How about on a traing day? Whats your PWO meal?

I do use shakes. If I can find cheap milk protein isolate, I'll throw 6 eggs some veggies and the powder in a blender.

Check the lunch meal. I think I said maybe because I don't do it on a regular basis. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don;t. I'm not the most consistent person when it comes to diet. I don't count calories. I guesstimate based on portion sizes. The days of taking the tuna out of the can and weighing it were over years ago. Also the days of pre cooking meals to control portion sizes are also over. That stuff is for diet nazi's.

 

[OneBreath]

I eat lots of vegetables.
I may get fruit twice a week , so I didn't list it

But yeah I eat lots of corn , peas , broccoli, green beans, cabbage, lima beans, kidney beans , greens, bell pepper, celery, onions, blue corn meal ,brussel sprouts, bean sprouts etc

The black eyed peas is a southern thing we do down south here. It's cheap

Thats great variety. I don't know many people who have that much variety. Growing up we usually just rotated corn, peas, and grean beans every night. If i recall, mom made black eyed peas on some specific day like new years or something for good luck.

 

[cobracock1979]

I do use shakes. If I can find cheap milk protein isolate, I'll throw 6 eggs some veggies and the powder in a blender.

Check the lunch meal. I think I said maybe because I don't do it on a regular basis. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don;t. I'm not the most consistent person when it comes to diet. I don't count calories. I guesstimate based on portion sizes. The days of taking the tuna out of the can and weighing it were over years ago. Also the days of pre cooking meals to control portion sizes are also over. That stuff is for diet nazi's.

Thanks for the insight. Maybe you can enlighten me on the new updated and modern protocols you have been referring to throughout this thread? From what you were sayin I need help improvin my 'outdated' WM+whey iso+glute+BCAA regime?!

So whats your PWO regime?

I think Southernlord asked the same question. From what I can remember he uses a similar method to me.(?)

Thx in advance

 

[gjohnson5]

Thanks for the insight. Maybe you can enlighten me on the new updated and modern protocols you were referring to? From what you were sayin I need help improvin my 'outdated' WM+whey iso+glute+BCAA regime?

So whats your PWO regime?

I don't know if there is a "modern" protocol
ALl I know is that I've spent time on ketosis and starvation forums and the studies these guys come up with are pretty good.

To be honest I wish I had a cookie cutter solition that fits all. I'm just saying that the old insulin spike PWO protocol is just overrated, there simply no evidence that it works any better then eating oats and brown rice PWO.

So to be honest I just eat PWO and it will generally be whole food like NPC has been saying

 

[gjohnson5]

to quote a natural bodybuilder
"There is no magic food"....

 

[cobracock1979]

Define anything?
Does carbs increase protein synthesis PWO... There's no evidence of this
Do you NEED to swallow High GI carbs PWO... There's no evidence of that either....



What does humalog injections have to do with natural insulin secretions through diet?
Absolutely nothing because the active time, half life and levels per ml of blood would be totally different
Not to mention the regulation system is totally different as well



That's anecdotal. Show evidence on a sample of people that what you say is true...



The world is already adapting to scientific evidence. It's YOUR problem (yes problem) that you haven't adjusted yet. Not anyone else's



Please read above.




There are many that don't...



Yep I agree with NPC that you need to grow up. Don't blame me that you're still running with around with 8 year old myths. Get educated with new information about diet and training

Well OK,

Thanks for being candid.

Ill endeavour to 'grow up' get educated with this 'new info about diet and training' you refer to above - Its just a shame you yourself admit to not knowing what that info is. Do you intend to 'Get educated with new information about diet and training' at any point in the near future? May be an idea if you are telling others to do it...then you can enlighten us...

Im half tempted to follow your example and just "eat" PWO, but...nah...thats one tidbid of info I wont be throwing in the melting pot! LOL jk

Oh well, you can be sure Ill keep searching for a better way, and if I discover the answer... Ill let you know ..

 

[gjohnson5]

Well OK,

Thanks for being candid.

Ill endeavour to 'grow up' get educated with this 'new info about diet and training' you refer to above - Its just a shame you yourself admit to not knowing what that info is. Do you intend to 'Get educated with new information about diet and training' at any point in the near future? May be an idea if you are telling others to do it...

Im half tempted to follow your example and just "eat" PWO, but...nah...thats one tidbid of info I wont be throwing in the melting pot! LOL jk

Oh well, you can be sure Ill keep searching for a better way, and if I discover the answer... Ill let you know ..

I'll repeat for the 10th time
The new information is
1. Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis
2. High GI card DO NOT make you fat
3. Sugars PWO are not needed

I'm just curious when I did not make that clear?

 

[cobracock1979]

I'll repeat for the 10th time
The new information is
1. Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis
2. High GI card DO NOT make you fat
3. Sugars PWO are not needed

I'm just curious when I did not make that clear?

Maybe I misunderstood -

You appeared in all your posts to be saying something slightly different -

1. There is no evidence to suggest Insulin spikes increase protein synthesis
2. There is no evidence to suggest High GI card make you fat
3. There is no evidence to suggest sugars are needed PWO


Did I misunderstand?

If so, Ill look forward to you providing definitive studies proving that Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis, High GI carbs DO NOT make you fat and Sugars PWO are not needed.

 

[gjohnson5]

Maybe I misunderstood -

You appeared in all your posts to be saying something slightly different -

1. There is no evidence to suggest Insulin spikes increase protein synthesis
2. There is no evidence to suggest High GI card make you fat
3. There is no evidence to suggest sugars are needed PWO


Did I misunderstand?

If so, Ill look forward to you providing definitive studies proving that Insulin spikes DO NOT increase protein synthesis, High GI carbs DO NOT make you fat and Sugars PWO are not needed.

I already did...
Reread the studies please

 

[NPC-OHIO]

I already did...
Reread the studies please

look what I started. Hey it doesn't flippn matter
If it works why change? Drink waxy n whey. I've told
You I did it. I still have a jug of krazy karb. I just
Wanted to try all methods. So far I've looked the best
Recovered the fastest on whole foods. Bananas oats
And the said rice cakes are the best. These rice cakes
Are so good I could eat a case. Choc chip on
Caramel. So good.

 

[dabuffguy]

Both of you, take the debate to a new thread. For real.






Everyone here happened to fail to notice, due to your debating, that he eatings NOTHING between 9AM and 1PM!




NPC-OHIO, you need some food between breakfast and lunch bro. It is not okay to go 4 hours without eating if you are trying to put on mass. At the very least get a ready-to-drink shake to down in between. Something with some good protein(30gm +), healthy fats, vits and mins, and moderately low in carbs.



I do have to add in my $.02

Rice cakes for PWO nutrition is doo-doo. End of story.

 

[cobracock1979]

Both of you, take the debate to a new thread. For real.






Everyone here happened to fail to notice, due to your debating, that he eatings NOTHING between 9AM and 1PM!




NPC-OHIO, you need some food between breakfast and lunch bro. It is not okay to go 4 hours without eating if you are trying to put on mass. At the very least get a ready-to-drink shake to down in between. Something with some good protein(30gm +), healthy fats, vits and mins, and moderately low in carbs.



I do have to add in my $.02

Rice cakes for PWO nutrition is doo-doo. End of story.

Some interesting points from Johnson - I will take another look at the studies posted.

If he's right, most people on this forum are wating their time and money with current insulin focused PWO regimes. I cant think of anyone on EF (apart from the people in this thread) who eat whole foods PWO.

Dabuff - Onebreath mentioned that he is not eating between 9 and 1 earlier in the thread.

Oh - and I said rice cakes were no good PWO - which is exactly where this little debate started....

Dabuff, what do you do PWO?

 

[cobracock1979]

I already did...
Reread the studies please

Johnson, I read the study you provided in order to prove insulin has no effect on protein synthesis - this study in no way proves this.

Its actually a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis.

This only goes to show that a carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I would suggest that if you wish to prove that insulin has no positive effect on protein synthesis PWO, you provide a study from a reputable source on the effect of the addition of carbohydrate + amino's PWO, which gives qualative and quantitive figures on insulin levels, total protein synthesis levels and the types of carbs used.

Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour).The improved net balance in gropu which ingester carbohydrate was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.

By the way, I started a new thread on this subject in the diet forum.

 

[gjohnson5]

Johnson, I read the study you provided in order to prove insulin has no effect on protein synthesis - this study in no way proves this.

You obviously didn't read the study....

Its actually a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

LOL
1. You didn't read the study apparently because there were 2 groups not 1
2. Once again you didn't read the study. It clearly states

"In CHO, subjects were given a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates (maltodextrin) in double distilled water at 1 h postexercise. In Pla, a placebo drink with artificial sweetener was ingested instead."

As I stated in the original study , GI of a carbohydrate is moot in terms of body composition.

3. Sampling serum insulin levels would make a difference how? The net result of insulin is to
A. Recharge glycogen in muscle
B. Aid in building or reconstruction of muscle PWO

The study clearly demonstrates point B. Posting serum insulin levles is moot since this is not a study of diabetics with impared glucose uptake.

All your points are moot....

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis.

The part in bold makes no sense at all. Either protein are created, spared or they are metabolized through gluconeogenesis. Protein sythesis is not created through reductions in gluconeogenesis.

You need to study up on the meaning of protein sythesis. Protein sythesis means that amino acids from the amino acid pool in the blood are combined in order to create skeletal muscle. This has absolutly nothing to do with gluceonegenesis / cortisol or the actof breaking down proteins for energy usage. The two are separate ... Infact they are exact opposite. Slowing one does not mean you gain in the other.

Anyway There are numerous studies which indicate that when adequate proteins are available , carbohydrate intake is moot. Hence the point of the thread....

This only goes to show that a carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I'm not sure where you got that idea , but It's not stated anywhere in the study and I doubt you'd find a study that states that either. I've looked once and I'll be happy to look again

Anyway I removed the bottom part of your post because it's moot
The questions I've already answered

 

[cobracock1979]

You obviously didn't read the study....



LOL
1. You didn't read the study apparently because there were 2 groups not 1
2. Once again you didn't read the study. It clearly states

"In CHO, subjects were given a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates (maltodextrin) in double distilled water at 1 h postexercise. In Pla, a placebo drink with artificial sweetener was ingested instead."

I asked where is the PROTEIN in the study - one group with carbs, one group without. Neither group ingested protein duing the study

As I stated in the original study , GI of a carbohydrate is moot in terms of body composition.

3. Sampling serum insulin levels would make a difference how? It would tell us the effect of carbohydrate ingestion compared to the size of the insulin spike

The net result of insulin is to
A. Recharge glycogen in muscle -
B. Aid in building or reconstruction of muscle PWO - you have already stated that insulid does not aid in protein synthesis. Make your mind up - your study only shows insulin to stop muscle breakdown - NOT reconstruction.

The study clearly demonstrates point B. Posting serum insulin levles is moot since this is not a study of diabetics with impared glucose uptake. Its not moot - the level of insulin is very relevant as we are trying to compare the effect of inulin spike - vs no insulin spike

All your points are moot.... Not true.


The part in bold makes no sense at all. Either protein are created, spared or they are metabolized through gluconeogenesis. Protein sythesis is not created through reductions in gluconeogenesis. This makes no sense and has nothing to do with my statement
You need to study up on the meaning of protein sythesis. Protein sythesis means that amino acids from the amino acid pool in the blood are combined in order to create skeletal muscle. This has absolutly nothing to do with gluceonegenesis / cortisol or the actof breaking down proteins for energy usage. The two are separate ... Infact they are exact opposite. Slowing one does not mean you gain in the other.

Anyway There are numerous studies which indicate that when adequate proteins are available , carbohydrate intake is moot. Hence the point of the thread.... This makes no sense



I'm not sure where you got that , but It's not stated anywhere in the study and I doubt you'd find a study that states that either. I've looked once and I'll be happy to look again

What im sayiong here is that the study shows that carbs pwo creats increased levels of insulin which slow muscle breakdown. that is ALL your study shows. Your study also states that in ANOTHER study - amino acids PWO gave more net protein synthesis that the Carbohydrate study. Im saying therefore carbs+amino's pwo should give a greater yield than either single study on its own. I then asked if you had such a study? Make sense? I fail to see how you can rubbish the idea of aminos+carbs PWO if you dont have a study relating to it.

Anyway I removed the bottom part of your post because it's moot
The questions I've already answered

Go to the other thread I posted. None of this proves definatively that insulin does not effect protein synthesis - as you stated. Not even close

 

[gjohnson5]

Sigh:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17997840

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.
Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.

Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.

If you wish to raise your insulin levels with a PWO drink fine...
Will it affect testosterone and cortisol levels PWO.... Probably not as this states

The only affect drinking excessive carbs PWO will do is increase insulin levels , which would have a negative effect on burning fat PWO.
Will it lead to more increased protein sythesis??? This study seems to indicate that it has no effect on some hormone levels.

Once again , the answer is carbohydrates sources probably won't play a major role in post workout anabolism if adequate proteins are present.


There are lots more

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Sigh:
Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of...[J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007] - PubMed Result

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.
Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.

Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.

If you wish to raise your insulin levels with a PWO drink fine...
Will it affect testosterone and cortisol levels PWO.... Probably not as this states

The only affect drinking excessive carbs PWO will do is increase insulin levels , which would have a negative effect on burning fat PWO.
Will it lead to more increased protein sythesis??? This study seems to indicate that it has no effect on some hormone levels.

Once again , the answer is carbohydrates sources probably won't play a major role in post workout anabolism if adequate proteins are present.


There are lots more

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Training With Sporto: A Quest For Lean Mass, Personal Records, & A Pro Physique! - Bodybuilding.com Forums

 

[OneBreath]

look what I started. Hey it doesn't flippn matter
If it works why change? Drink waxy n whey. I've told
You I did it. I still have a jug of krazy karb. I just
Wanted to try all methods. So far I've looked the best
Recovered the fastest on whole foods. Bananas oats
And the said rice cakes are the best. These rice cakes
Are so good I could eat a case. Choc chip on
Caramel. So good.

Actually this thread has created some interesting debate and entertainment. Dabuff, however, seems to have trumped all research with his declaration "Rice cakes for PWO is doo doo". I mean common, you can't argue with that!

I can't stop laughing.

 

[gjohnson5]

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

Who is GUS???
I know jkurz1 used to call me that and he lives in Columbus....
Are you his alter?

LOL if so
That dude is a total flake....

 

[gjohnson5]

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

And you don't weigh 200lb , you weigh 142
You should lie and then try to rip people

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-weight-lifting/jkurz1-up-beaatch-616532.html

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Who is GUS???
I know jkurz1 used to call me that and he lives in Columbus....
Are you his alter?

LOL if so
That dude is a total flake....

No idea what a jkurz is or who, but I figured your name was Gus from the NBA stiff.....no?

 

[gjohnson5]

No idea what a jkurz is or who, but I figured your name was Gus from the NBA stiff.....no?

LOLOLOLOLOL

U pwned yourself bad and now going to get redded

 

[NPC-OHIO]

LOLOLOLOLOL

U pwned yourself bad and now going to get redded

what are you talking about? Oh please no, please.....

 

[NPC-OHIO]

I see everyone was right about you, sad, but true. You are excellent at posting sites from the net, but explaining them, you're clueless.....fat ass southern chump....

 

[Nomak666]

WOW BRO, you are giving me advice. you cant even make your own diet, so your friend designed one for you. btw 6'2 205 pounds and sitting around 8% bodyfat, and you're asking advice on your diet? sounds like you're in good shape already. alot of these things dont seem to add up. NPC my Ass

 

[Strongbow]

what are you talking about? Oh please no, please.....

Look at my Avatar.... MY secret is two blueberry doghnuts and a Dr. Pepper for brakfast, the rest of the day I follow a very strict see food diet...I see food I eat it. What u think?

 

[dabuffguy]

LOLOLOLOLOL

U pwned yourself bad and now going to get redded

Grow up

 

[SouthernLord]

Wow

This thread started out good. The shit hit the fan though. Alters and shit lol

 

[OneBreath]

I see everyone was right about you, sad, but true. You are excellent at posting sites from the net, but explaining them, you're clueless.....fat ass southern chump....

What happened here? Is this what happens when you eat chocolate chip rice cakes PWO? Its like roid rage lol.

 

[gjohnson5]

Grow up

Waddya mean for ME to grow up
1. cobra is running around testifying to people with ideas that have been debunked years ago and getting pejorative against other who this differently
2. npc is clearly an alter and telling lies behind a fake identity

I uncover both and you TELL ME to grow up???

I could get pejorative here as well, but I'll pass

Maybe find another thread to post on.

 

[cobracock1979]

Johnson - I dont have any issues with people having other ideas. I simply stated what I did PWO. If you read this thread and the other one, im clearly open to other ways - your the only one who thinks im any different. It is you who is intent on being the only one with a valid opinion.

Just grow up man

 

[gjohnson5]

Johnson - I dont have any issues with people having other ideas. I simply stated what I did PWO. If you read this thread and the other one, im clearly open to other ways - your the only one who thinks im any different. It is you who is intent on being the only one with a valid opinion.

Just grow up man

Yes you do. I don't need to reread the thread. It's YOU who need to reread your responses and edit like pronto before I show your inability to grasp concepts or inability to accept other ideas

Whatever... Waste of time

 

[cobracock1979]

LOL,

Be my guest.

 

[cobracock1979]

Sigh:
Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of...[J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007] - PubMed Result

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.
Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.

Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses
If you wish to raise your insulin levels with a PWO drink fine...
Will it affect testosterone and cortisol levels PWO.... Probably not as this states

The only affect drinking excessive carbs PWO will do is increase insulin levels , which would have a negative effect on burning fat PWO.
Will it lead to more increased protein sythesis??? This study seems to indicate that it has no effect on some hormone levels.

Once again , the answer is carbohydrates sources probably won't play a major role in post workout anabolism if adequate proteins are present.


There are lots more

Again - interesting study. Once again, this in no way proves that insulin spikes do not increase protein synthesis. This study was to see whether different forms of CHO had different effects on insulin and glucose levels.

You cannot use glucose levels in this study as a direct indication of whether anabolic reactios are taking place -its only a marker as stated. You physically need to measue amino levels as it the first study you posted.

I have a first class chemistry degree - I really dont have troble interpreting the results of these studies like you keep saying. Although this is not my area of expertise so I am treading carefully.

Agreed, insulin will have anti fat burning qualiities.

Listen, I have have seen stuff new I didnt know from some of your threads, so I genuinly am not tryin to pick a fight. However, YOU are the one who claimed to be able to DEFINATIVELY prove that an insulin spike PWO has no positive effect on protein synthesis, so the impetus is on you to prove that.

I think thats fair enough.

post 57 http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/mass-please-give-me-your-advice-618806-6.html

 

[dabuffguy]

Waddya mean for ME to grow up
1. cobra is running around testifying to people with ideas that have been debunked years ago and getting pejorative against other who this differently
2. npc is clearly an alter and telling lies behind a fake identity

I uncover both and you TELL ME to grow up???

I could get pejorative here as well, but I'll pass

Maybe find another thread to post on.

NPC-OHIO, on his "introduction" thread a few weeks back somewhere told us who he was. He denied it to screw with you.

You've uncovered and proved nothing nothing.


Anyways, I said 'grow up' for "redding" him. Pathetic how you red people somtimes guy, and publicly announce it too to show others your "best plan of action" is to give a worthelss "red K".

People can't tell you shit and you're stubborn as hell, you know?

 

[gjohnson5]

NPC-OHIO, on his "introduction" thread a few weeks back somewhere told us who he was. He denied it to screw with you.

You've uncovered and proved nothing nothing.


Anyways, I said 'grow up' for "redding" him. Pathetic how you red people somtimes guy, and publicly announce it too to show others your "best plan of action" is to give a worthelss "red K".

People can't tell you shit and you're stubborn as hell, you know?

Well I just redded you
Hope you liked it

I proved nothing nothing???
Why not learn English first before trying to rip people

 

[dabuffguy]

Well I just redded you
Hope you liked it

I like the color.


I proved nothing nothing???
Why not learn English first before trying to rip people

Again, grow up. You interact with people like a 7th grader.