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Days after Detroit declared bankruptcy..

redsamurai

Banned
They announce that the Red Wings get a stadium overall for $500m.
Wow...the Red Wings owner is the founder of Little Ceasars aka the worst pizza ever made in the entire western hemisphere. So a multi billionaire gets his new stadium and people making $19k a year get their pensions cut. Welcome to the new United States.
 
One thing has nothing to do with the other, if anything the stadium will employ local peeps, attract visitors and the building permits gave cash to the city.

Not fair to judge what rich people do just cuz poor people are hurting.

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They studied the economical impact that the stadium overhaul would have and it was negligible. This isn't like a whole new team moving into the area, the Red Wings have been there for a long time. Very little benefit will go to the people of Detroit besides some seasonal jobs. At least not enough to even come close to offsetting the price tag. How can you agree with using public funds to fund this when the city just declared bankruptcy? People making $19k a year won't get their pensions...their fucking pensions. Yet little ceasars get their stadium overhaul? It's not like the owner can just pack up and move them either, he'd need permission from the NHL which they would never give, not for the Red Wings no way.
 
Only good things coming out of Detroit are Mustang and Corvettes, otherwise, I don't give a crap.
 
Wasting taxpayer dollars on stadiums for billionaires is no better or no worse than wasting the same dollars on labor unions and unsustainable benefits programs.

I wish the government would get out of all of it. Otherwise, we're stuck trying to argue which "investments" are more noble than others.

It's like trying to argue that a turd has a clean side. No. No it doesn't. It's a turd through-and-through.
 
If the city doesn't pony up the cash, the Wings move to another city that will (and there would be a list of them that would).
 
Little Ceasars can pay for it then. They don't deserve a new arena as the city declares bankruptcy. No professional sports team does.

Why would the owner take that risk himself when he doesn't have to? Easier to tell Detroit to fuck off and move the team if they don't want to fund an arena. Would YOU want to invest that much into a city that's on shaky ground?
 
Corvettes are made in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and Mustangs in Flat Rock, Michigan.

That's the assembly plants.

The design work is done at the main headquarters (Dearborn, I think)

But still it's called the Detroit 3 (Ford, Chevy and Dodge)

You and your technical poop. I'm not imprezzed.
 
Interesting argument.

Free market for locating teams?


The NHL doesn't like it when teams leave an established market, and you would need permission from the league to relocate of course....but the league isn't going to force a team to play in a crumbling facility in a city that isn't willing to work with the team to replace it for very long.
 
Wasting taxpayer dollars on stadiums for billionaires is no better or no worse than wasting the same dollars on labor unions and unsustainable benefits programs.

I wish the government would get out of all of it. Otherwise, we're stuck trying to argue which "investments" are more noble than others.

It's like trying to argue that a turd has a clean side. No. No it doesn't. It's a turd through-and-through.


We're talkinga bout people's pensions, we're talking about basic fire and police service's. This isn't even about the unions.
 
We're talkinga bout people's pensions, we're talking about basic fire and police service's. This isn't even about the unions.

Pensions are unions. I guess they can lose their pensions like the rest of America
 
Pensions are unions. I guess they can lose their pensions like the rest of America

Not if there's 500m to refurbish an arena that really doesn't absolutely need it. People's pensions are the last thing on the chopping block. If there's 500m for a stadium there's enough money to cover people's pensions.
 
Not if there's 500m to refurbish an arena that really doesn't absolutely need it. People's pensions are the last thing on the chopping block. If there's 500m for a stadium there's enough money to cover people's pensions.

Well first let's look at the pensions:

Those were antiquated defined benefit plans -- not defined contribution ones. The private sector realized these plans are unsustainable over 25 years ago.

The benefits were artificially set high by using fraudulent accounting and calculation caveats (like getting a promotion one year before retirement, working 60 hour weeks and then setting that salary as your base for pension payments).

The city knew for decades that the funds were failing. But instead of shoring them up, politicians picked the corpse clean and left the the pension bill rocketing upward.

Now Let's look at the Stadium:

----- Copy and Paste ----

The arena will be paid for with a $450 million bond issue that will be repaid over the next 30 years. Taxpayers will be paying almost two-thirds of the cost of the arena — $283 million — and private developers will cover the rest. Including interest, it’s projected that there will be a total of $444 million in taxpayer funds spent on the project.

Additionally, the developer has committed to spending another $200 million to build retail, office, residential and hotel space as part of the project. The construction is expected to create about 8,000 construction jobs with work due to start next year.

---- End Copy and Paste ----

So the city isn't just handing-out the cash -- it's making a low-cost bond issue. They'll get the cash back and in the process, draw-in $140M of private cash on the stadium and another $200M of all-private cash to be spent on the surrounding area.

---------------------------------------
So which is the clean end of the turd?
 
They studied the economical impact that the stadium overhaul would have and it was negligible. This isn't like a whole new team moving into the area, the Red Wings have been there for a long time. Very little benefit will go to the people of Detroit besides some seasonal jobs. At least not enough to even come close to offsetting the price tag. How can you agree with using public funds to fund this when the city just declared bankruptcy? People making $19k a year won't get their pensions...their fucking pensions. Yet little ceasars get their stadium overhaul? It's not like the owner can just pack up and move them either, he'd need permission from the NHL which they would never give, not for the Red Wings no way.


$19K year?? not much of a pension now is it?? it's ok though food stamps, free medical and social security will get them the same thing.. it's all part of King Obama's plan..
 
Not if there's 500m to refurbish an arena that really doesn't absolutely need it. People's pensions are the last thing on the chopping block. If there's 500m for a stadium there's enough money to cover people's pensions.

is that all it would take 500million to cover the pension plan?? heck, even my firefighter plan has a guaranteed 3% growth

but we are smart enough not to leave the direction or management in the hands of politicians, it's professionally managed...

500 million. hahahha that's a laugh for sure... pensions are bullshit, and for the weak minded that cannot save nor invest in the future for their own care... or are they savings accounts for hard working people who tool lower paying jobs in order to have more money saved for them in a pension plan due to afore mentioned issues??
 
well first let's look at the pensions:

Those were antiquated defined benefit plans -- not defined contribution ones. The private sector realized these plans are unsustainable over 25 years ago.

The benefits were artificially set high by using fraudulent accounting and calculation caveats (like getting a promotion one year before retirement, working 60 hour weeks and then setting that salary as your base for pension payments).

does a $19k annual pension sound exhorbitant to you? These people are retired and can't get back in the work force. $19k is baseline subsistence living.

the city knew for decades that the funds were failing. But instead of shoring them up, politicians picked the corpse clean and left the the pension bill rocketing upward.


i'm not in disagreement but where is the fairness to chop $19k pensions from retired people?
now let's look at the stadium:

----- copy and paste ----

the arena will be paid for with a $450 million bond issue that will be repaid over the next 30 years. Taxpayers will be paying almost two-thirds of the cost of the arena — $283 million — and private developers will cover the rest. Including interest, it’s projected that there will be a total of $444 million in taxpayer funds spent on the project.

Additionally, the developer has committed to spending another $200 million to build retail, office, residential and hotel space as part of the project. The construction is expected to create about 8,000 construction jobs with work due to start next year.

---- end copy and paste ----


8000 contruction jobs that will be gone once the refurb is done. Isn't that the shovel and run jobs you guys disdained on obama's stimulus for? And will all of those 8000 workers be in state? Depending on the contractor they may bring in out of state workers. This isn't so cut and dry.

So the city isn't just handing-out the cash -- it's making a low-cost bond issue. They'll get the cash back and in the process, draw-in $140m of private cash on the stadium and another $200m of all-private cash to be spent on the surrounding area.

---------------------------------------
so which is the clean end of the turd?

there is none. You just can't justify slashing people's pensions who earned it. These people aren't "getting over" on anybody with a $19k pension.
\

..
 
If the money isnt there, the money isnt there. I dont see how someone "earns" a defined benefit plan other than showing up and punching a clock like the rest of the world. The world isnt fair and if the politicians run a city into the dirt and theres nothing left for pensions, well shit happens and its not the end of the world.
 
If the money isnt there, the money isnt there. I dont see how someone "earns" a defined benefit plan other than showing up and punching a clock like the rest of the world.

The same way they "earn" their paycheck. It's part of their total compensation package. Not rocket surgery.
 
The same way they "earn" their paycheck. It's part of their total compensation package. Not rocket surgery.

Paychecks are different than benefits. Benefits change all the time, somtimes more and sometime less. Kinda rare for someone to get their paycheck lowered.
 
Since when is a defined benefit plan like health insurance? The straw grasping is strong with you, my son.
 
The same way they "earn" their paycheck. It's part of their total compensation package. Not rocket surgery.

Rocket Surgery?
Or brain Surgery?

In some respects I have to agree with SD. The pensions of the collecting folks were being paid for by monies collected from current workers. The number of current workers does not pay for the number of people collecting a pensions.

I think what new York did is grant a combination of pension and 401k, so half or more of their retirement is an elected contribution from the workers pay check.

But New York still has a bigger debt then Detroit , so not sure if it's working
 
Rocket Surgery?
Or brain Surgery?

In some respects I have to agree with SD. The pensions of the collecting folks were being paid for by monies collected from current workers. The number of current workers does not pay for the number of people collecting a pensions.

I think what new York did is grant a combination of pension and 401k, so half or more of their retirement is an elected contribution from the workers pay check.

But New York still has a bigger debt then Detroit , so not sure if it's working


I agree with this wholeheartedly, the pension system in this country sounds alarmingly like a ponzi scheme and it was concocted in the era of unlimited irrational exuberance. lol
And I agree with SD that if the money isn't there the money isn't there. But apparently there's money for a "sports" stadium overhaul, so there's money to cover these people. To just say "well that's tough but we couldn't possibly say no to Mr Little fucking shitty Ceasars"....there's something fundamentally immoral and outright crass about that.
 
Since when is a defined benefit plan like health insurance? The straw grasping is strong with you, my son.

Future benefits established by legislation would always be subject to change, otherwise one legislature could bind future ones.

Plus Detroit is filing for bankruptcy, so any of its contracts are subject to change.
 
Rocket Surgery?
Or brain Surgery?

In some respects I have to agree with SD. The pensions of the collecting folks were being paid for by monies collected from current workers. The number of current workers does not pay for the number of people collecting a pensions.

I think what new York did is grant a combination of pension and 401k, so half or more of their retirement is an elected contribution from the workers pay check.

But New York still has a bigger debt then Detroit , so not sure if it's working

Rocket surgery was a joke hombre.

My point is that the attitude that firefighters (who participate in defined benefit plans instead of social security) should simply chalk this up as a loss is ridiculous.

The money isnt there, but attacking the retirement plan system itself (as opposed to the actions that led to the mismanaged/underfunded plans) is way to simple minded to do any sort of good.
 
Plus Detroit is filing for bankruptcy, so any of its contracts are subject to change.

PBGC should step in. Thats why they exist.
 
NYC is about 12 times bigger than Detroit so obviously they would have much more debt
 
NYC is about 12 times bigger than Detroit so obviously they would have much more debt

You wanna freaking fight rob?

Still talking shit about me.

Give me your address, I'ma come to your house and fight you.

You think you're tough stuff taking crap behind my back?

I'll freaking kill you bitch.
 
NYC probably spends more money NYPD settlements and litigation then they do on pensions....

If people would just fall in line, they wouldn't have to bust heads like that.

As long as we keep shoveling government more money, it's a tacit approval to do whatever they want. We'll know when people want change, because they'll cut-off the purse.

It's like my business school professor Jagdish Sheth said: "I change your money, I change you like that <snaps fingers>."
 
Either way the production work Ford / Chevy is not done in Detroit. The production work is done in an area with reduced labor and operational costs. That was the point of MrDB's post. The development work is done in Detroit. The production work is not.

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I can appreciate the emotional response that is caused when a group "provides for a hockey team" while "cuts pensions". I can also appreciate how the response is magnified when the public sector is impacted (ie fire, police). Typically, I generally find that no one wants to fund the police or fire department until those groups are needed.

It's hard to say what's right and wrong because there is no clear or universal definition of right and wrong. Each person has their own view of the world and what they believe. For example, I'm not really a hockey fan so I don't care if the Wings leave. I have needed a fire department before, so I would rather not cut their funds.
 
Rocket surgery was a joke hombre.

My point is that the attitude that firefighters (who participate in defined benefit plans instead of social security) should simply chalk this up as a loss is ridiculous.

The money isnt there, but attacking the retirement plan system itself (as opposed to the actions that led to the mismanaged/underfunded plans) is way to simple minded to do any sort of good.

well said
 
You wanna freaking fight rob?

Still talking shit about me.

Give me your address, I'ma come to your house and fight you.

You think you're tough stuff taking crap behind my back?

I'll freaking kill you bitch.


I'll put 2m on buff. Another 1m says it ends at :12 of the 1st round to viscious leg kick that put SD straight down and DB follows him down and applies an immediate keylock.
 
I'll put 2m on buff. Another 1m says it ends at :12 of the 1st round to viscious leg kick that put SD straight down and DB follows him down and applies an immediate keylock.

Unpossible due to virginity status
 
I'll put 2m on buff. Another 1m says it ends at :12 of the 1st round to viscious leg kick that put SD straight down and DB follows him down and applies an immediate keylock.

I wouldn't rumble with SD. He's a top notch rob.


He just better not talk crap anymore...;)
 
All the commercials in the states are either about bankruptcy, prescription meds or a disability problem...I'm serious...or law firms that sue over the stupidest shit...it's crazy
 
All the commercials in the states are either about bankruptcy, prescription meds or a disability problem...I'm serious...or law firms that sue over the stupidest shit...it's crazy

It makes business very expensive here and prices haven't caught-up yet. Between torts and regulation, the US is overdue a massive price increase.
 
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